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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 01:43:10
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I'm not Steven, but you have to consider that EotSS was written and set after the ToT - when many gods had a resurgence. As such, the shrine could be a recent creation brought about by the now very active Church of Shaundakul spreading his faith to many far-flung areas of Faer�n. Just a thought.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 08:18:09
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I have a few questions related to the Shadow Thieves, if I may:
1) In Lords of Darkness, the number of Shades was reduced from eight to five, with each Shade being assigned an entire country or region rather than a district. As well as this, the number of Cloakmasters was changed from something like 50+ to only a dozen. What made the Shadow Council decide to change things so drastically?
2) Were the two new Shades introduced in Lords of Darkness (Darlan Mortem and Nulara "Silversong" Haphet) the two previously unnamed Shades, or were they newly promoted to their positions?
3) Three of those Shades named in LoI and Cloak & Dagger were gone in Lords of Darkness (namely Sammar Rendasc, Suldax Tampcoin, and Kerindra Lynnrenno). Any clues as to what happened to them (and the unnamed Shades, if Mortem and Hapet weren't them)?
EDIT: I'm guessing deaths, probably at least one of them due to the Sythillisians.
4) In City of Splendors: Waterdeep, Marune is said to report directly to the Shade of Baldur's Gate (Orniiv "The Eclipse" Fandarfall). How come he doesn't report to the Shade of the Sword Coast North (Nulara Haphet)?
5) Given that Shadow Thieves are only supposed to know the identity of their direct superior, what happens when someone is promoted within the organization? Killing everyone who knew the promotee seems a little drastic even for the Shadow Thieves ;).
EDIT 2: Just remembered another question I meant to ask.
6) Give the immense secrecy of the organization, how likely do you think it is that the Shadow Thieves have been infilitrated by certain other groups of thieves? I'm specifically thinking of the Night Masks (who are obviously in direct competition with the Saerloon branch of the STs) and the Dark Dagger. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 13 Mar 2006 11:45:15 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 14:50:37
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| I would like to have answers to all these questions too, but I'm pretty sure that Steven is not the one to ask... |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 16:38:27
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Well, Steven was the one who originally fleshed out the Shadow Thieves, detailing the Grandmaster of Shadows, three of the eight 2E era Shades as well as numerous Cloakmasters, Silhouettes and other lesser thieves in LoI. I'm guessing the fellow who pretty much created the group at least has his own ideas and opinions to explain all the changes and additions, even if it wasn't he who actually decided upon or implemented them :).
The sentence "The internal hierarchy of the Shadow Thieves is jealously guarded; a member knows only his immediate superior and underlings" from LoI would suggest Steven is certainly the person to ask in regards to 5), at the very least. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 10 Mar 2006 16:44:00 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 16:47:38
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| I know all you said, but I would be surprised that the designers of Lords of Darkness worked with him to do the Shadow thieves entry. So maybe you should try SKR. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 15 Mar 2006 17:15:51 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 12:19:00
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As to my previous post, I think I have finally pieced things together from Empires of the Sands and Lands of Intrigue:
Magic is only illegal when it is unregulated
Wizards are ostracized, and even outright persecuted, by the general population of Amn. Magic is not however illegal! Rather, it is strictly regulated by the government. Those who practice arcane magic outside of government supervision are criminals.
The practice of arcane magic in Amn is regulated by the government, specifically by the Meisarch's office. Arcane magic-users level 5 and above must register with the the Meisarch's deparment and choose to either perform compulsory government service, exile, or death. Level 1-4 practicioners are not required to register.
Magic items that are unregulated are illegal
Certain magic items (unspecified in the source material) appear to be illegal contraband--but this seems mostly to be a matter of what the government regulates as acceptable for sale to the general public, and especially where. It is noted for example that in Murann, prior to the Sythillisian occupation, an alchemists' guild was sanctioned by the government. And while potions were for sale by this guild in Murann, it seems likely that they would have been illegal elsewhere in Amn. Empires of the Sands notes that in Athkatla "very few items that are illegal" and that "powerful magical supplies, and dangerous alchemical compounds are not allowed to minors (defined in Amn as persons under 14 years of age)." But this appears to be in contrast with the the rest of the nation, as its chief seaport and largest city.
The Cowled Wizards are an unsanctioned (outlawed) organization
The Cowled Wizards are an "outlawed" organization that chooses to pursues its own ends independently, outside of goverment control. They are mostly high level wizards who seek to preserve the Art in service to Azuth and Mystra, rather than as a tool of the government.
***
In my gaming group we're wondering how magic is regulated in practice in Amn. It seems that if a DM is keep with canon as closely as possible, it would be the Meisarch's office that "keeps sharp eye" for unregistered mages, and the sale of unregulated magic items.
It's worth noting that the Cowled Wizards do have their own prosocial agenda in protecting Amn from evil wizards who pose a threat to the public. They have historically done so. But, as a rule, I don't see them as spending their resources constantly scrying to try to find such individuals, and confronting them when found. Since the Meisarch's office is so heavily involved in monitoring wizards via its network of spies (and also by scrying?), and registering and regulating them, I would think the Cowls risk blowing their cover from such activity. They would probably be very selective about confronting any such wizards who come to their attention. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 22:40:41
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| I guess my group always played magic in Amn as a much deadlier secret. This stemmed from all of us playing Dark Sun for a while, and the Cowled Wizards looked a lot like the Veiled Alliance. So for us, being a wizard in that land was a deadly proposition, something that (unless you were obviously stunningly powerful) would lead to immidiate attack by essentially everyone if you used obvious wizard spells. This is probably too extreme, but it certainly kept us on our toes. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 12:23:39
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Well, there are some ambiguities and seeming contradictions in the source material as to how Amnian society actually operates with regard to magic, that I've been hoping Steven will clarify when he's able to.
Near as I can tell, here's the core contradiction:
It seems that as a rule, wizards in Amn typically keep their identities secret. They do not openly practice the Art. And Amnian society does tend to fear and distrust mages, and shuns them. However, there appears to be no law prohibting a mage from openly practicing arcane magic as long as the caster is level 1-4, or registered with the government at level 5+.
By the same token, Amn is a highly civilized land. The culture is strangley Lawful; the government has a relatively strong presence in people's lives, although Amnian society features the quirk that its mafia-like merchant families actually run local government and favor and influence are usually for sale for the right price.
In any event, each community in Amn has a judge appointed by the Town Council. When it comes to merchant family disputes, anything more serious than a tavern brawl results in the Council of Six meting various negative consequences on the violator's business.
It's unclear whether outright acts of vioelnce by citizens towards mages would be tolerated by the court. But the fact is there is (near as I can tell) nothing illegal about practicing magic (under the above stated guidelines). Given that the government regulates mages, one would think it would also provide some basic protections to them. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 02:24:59
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I'm not disputing any of that, nor do I think my group's version was actually correct. It stemmed from the fact we had just finished a Dark Sun campaign in which the Veiled Alliance had played a rather large role. We started reading Lands of Intrigue, took one look at the Coweled Wizards, and cried "Faerun's Veiled Alliance!" We sorta ran from there. It got a little extreme, by the end. Add to that the fact that the group became Harpers a little way in, and, well...
At least superficially, the VA and CW do look rather alike. What's different is the popular opinion, where Amn is somewhat less extreme than Athas. But if you want to really push it, it's possible. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 04:00:40
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| Sounds like a fun approach to the setting that you guys used, I think I would enjoy that more, actually. Just trying to get clear on the canon. :) |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Octa
Learned Scribe
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 17:41:29
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Steven- What can you tell us about Amn pre-council of six? Specifically I am looking for a description of the Coats of Arms and some details on how the Kingdom was run, i.e. was it a straight Feudal Monarchy like Tethyr?
I'll look through lands of intrigue and the empires of the Sands and see what I find. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 17:45:46
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| Steven, I have one question. Are you okay? We haven't seen you in days. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 17:51:23
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| He's not posted to his blog in a while, either... I'll email him when I get home. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 18:31:04
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I'd not worry too much, though - he made a post on Eric Scott de Bie's blog at 12:38 AM (UTC).
...Is it just me, or is being able to know that sort of thing make you feel a bit like you want to leave less traces on the Internet? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 03:09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Steven, I have one question. Are you okay? We haven't seen you in days.
Word is that he's engaged in matters of the heart ... 
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 03:47:51
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Steven, I have one question. Are you okay? We haven't seen you in days.
Word is that he's engaged in matters of the heart ...
-- George Krashos
You mean Stevens love affair with pints of Guiness George? (It is after all Saint Patricks day)  |
�I am the King of Rome, and above grammar�
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Herr Doktor
Seeker
52 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 18:54:48
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Hello, Steven, I'm huntin' fer Tethyrian lore and I was told that you are the man to talk to about such. I asked about these locales on the Ask Ed thread:
- Banshivale
- Brinniq Dell
- Canaith
- Castle Dasaajk
- Caves of Memory
- Grapton
- Grapevine’s Root
- Guardian’s Garrison
- Hostim
- Keeperstone
- Marakir
- Nine Ladies
- Samyte’s Tomb
- Seven Stars
- Strohm IV's Tomb
- Tinkersdam's Cave
- Tresqyl Vineyards
And learned that some are in Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II, but Eric L. Boyd also chimed in with: [quote]"A few might be from the pre-edit version of Lands of Intrigue. I really liked some of the local flavor places that got cut, so I refuse to believe they are not really part of the (published) Realms. ;-)" /quote]
I was wonderin' if you could share anymore lore on any of the above locales, or any other cut Tethyr bits that you care to share! The more Tethyr the merrier. Thanks ahead. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 21:31:01
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Sorry I've been out of touch, folks. It's that "got busy with work and then discovered someone great" thing. Thus, I've neglected a number of things in lieu of a lovely woman who lives far too far away from me.
Anyhoo, this is just a ping to say I'm alive, healthy, very happy, and feeling a tech guilty at neglecting this site. I'll try and answer a few questions while I'm here, though fair warning--I don't have my references at hand and it'll have to be quick. I'm off to an art show in less than an hour.
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Edited by - Steven Schend on 20 Mar 2006 00:53:20 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 21:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Steven, I'm reading through Cloak and Dagger again in search of this or that reference to something, and I came across the "Seven Swords of the Shoon" on page 30. Do you have any clue what those might be? It is mentioned that two of them are currently or have been in the possession of the Tel'Teukiira, but no more.
The Seven Swords of Shoon were something I'd meant to do more with another day. One of them was handled in the EoSS as a sword lost when the guy got pitched into the River Agis.
Do I have more details on them? Not right now....but you've revived my thoughts and I may scribble some things down soon here on them....or y'all can help contribute. George? 
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 21:39:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Sage Schend, I asked both Eds (Bonny and Greenwood) about possible elven presence in Cormyr (near the Vast Swamp, to be exact) before the reign of Thauglor or the fallen Orva, since I think it might be reasonable to assume that the elves of Cormanthor would have had at least some kind of "outposts" (if not actual kingdoms/realms) in that area.
Mr. Bonny suggested that there might have been small family "enclaves" or outposts. What do you think?
Another question regards Orva, which apparently fell around -900 DR (I do not remember exact date). Would they have been Netherese or Jhaamdathan explorers, or maybe survivors/descendants of Thaeraevel of the Alabaster Towers? What would be your opinion of their origin?
If Sage Krashos also happens to read this, your opinions would also be most highly appreciated and regarded 
Sorry, Astegrion. Cormyr's never been my strong suit, so I doubt I could add anything more erudite than those Eds or others you mentioned. Still, I'd guess that with that date (and without checking the dates), those might be Jhaamdathan explorers, unless you really need or want them to be Netherese. For that matter, why not add to your campaign a group / conclave of Jhaamdathan survivors who've allied with one of the Netherese city-states (like the sunken ones near where Yhaunn's harbor will be)?
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 21:41:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Octa
Steven- Quick one:
What was the family name of the rulers of Mintar deposed by Teldorn Darkhope.
`Fraid I couldn't tell you this, as I don't recall/know/can't check. Perhaps Eric can help (if he hasn't already)....
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 21:44:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
If you are the one who created Teldorn Darkhope and his knights, can you say from where they could originate (before the assault on Mintar). If not, can you tell me who created them ?
My memory's a tad fuzzy here. It might've been Eric Boyd who made this guy....or perhaps he was an original holdover from FR3....or he might've been some toss-off mention of things from one of Ed's random articles in POLYHEDRON or elsewhere.
I'm just the guy who branded his face, forced him into Xvim's worship, and made him work with Fzoul....only to see it all revert back to the original direction a few years later....
As for from whence they came? Pick a city from along the Lake of Steam or perhaps they trundled up from the Border Kingdoms.....Anyone's guess, but their skin tone (or at least Teldorn's) suggest they're not natives of the Empires region.....
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 21:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hiya, Steven! Another question for you... We know, thanks to the City of Splendors: Waterdeep book, that Waterdeep's navy consists of 55 ships, of various types and functions. What we don't know is anything about the ships, other than their types.
So, have you any ship names, noteworthy captains, or ship lore to add? I'm trying to exhaust other sources of lore before I take the question to Ed...
Geez, Wooly. Ask an easy questions why don'tcha?
No ideas leaping to mind right now, as I can't check either SoFS or CoS or anything, as I'm typing this from the S.O.'s house.
Lemme get home and dig a little or make something up, but my brain's failing me after frantically trying to catch up here......
Off the top of my head (in attempts to give you something with which to work), I'd use the names of rulers or major figures or people important to the shipbuilders. Thus, take the noble families known to deal with shipbuilding and get their names and their relatives' names on ships. Those built for the City expressly would probably carry euphemisms for the Lords (the Darkhelm, the Sea-Cloak, the Lordsail, etc.) or specifically after those in the Navy--especially any and all heroes who fell during the Threat from the Sea or Myrkul's Horde, etc.
SES |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 21:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
Hi Steven,
As a person of some authority on Tethyr, I thought I'd ask you this quick question.
In D&D 3.0 and 3.5 we now have Wild Elves and Wood Elves, two seperate sub-species. Which type dwells in the Forest of Tethyr? I know there are two tribes there, so is there one tribe of each variety?
Exactly. The Elmanesse (I think they're the "less civilized" ones) would be the "wild" elves.
Frankly and just IMO, I think the distinction is silly and both are different shades of green elf, just as the moon elves aren't all exactly the same.
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 21:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
In the Empire of the Shining Sea and Calimport accessories - you put in two references to Shaundakul:
1) In EotSS - there is The Protectors House - a temple that houses four shrines - one to Shaundakul - in addition to three other 'protector' / travel deities - Selune, Valkur, and Ibrandul.
2) In Calimport - there is mention of a "pilgrimage site" to Shaundakul near the city's edge that is gaining noteriety among caravan drivers faithful to Shaundakul - though mention is made that none of his priests are aware of this yet.
Thanks for the kind words on BLACKSTAFF. I hope it doesn't disappoint.
As for the Protectors' House, George's answer pretty much hit the nail on the head as to the resurgence and restoration of that faith down there. It's very isolated and there's probably a singular story of either a shipwrecked or a kidnapped/enslaved cleric/worshiper of Shaundakul who helped establish it. In fact, the same could be done with Valkur and the other one....and they hid their worship in tiny chapels nestled among imagery and religious trappings of Selune....so those secretly in the know could worship there while seeming to embrace a respected, powerful, and nonheretical church.
Hope this mad-dash answer helps / makes sense. Sarah's calling me to get ready for this art gallery show....so I've got to run. Hope to catch up with more tomorrow....
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 00:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Sorry I've been out of touch, folks. It's that "got busy with work and then discovered someone great" thing. Thus, I've neglected a number of things in lieu of a lovely woman who lives far too far away from me.
I can certainly understand that myself... and given the second "distraction"... very, very much so .
quote:
Anyhoo, this is just a ping to say I'm alive, healthy, very happy, and feelign a tech guilty at neglecting this site.
Well, it's good to hear from you once again Steven.
Welcome back! .
quote:
I'll try and answer a few questions while I'm here, though fair warning--I don't have my references at hand and it'll have to be quick.
I have a particularly engrossing question of my own to ask... but I think I'll hold off asking it until you're back with your references then .
quote:
I'm off to an art show in less than an hour.
Oooh! What can you tell us about it?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 03:13:44
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Hello-
Glad to hear that thimngs are going well - if a bit far away! :)
Your information pretty much confirms what Krash suggested.
I may elaborate on both of these sites in the months to come - as I'm working on some 'Shaundakul-ific' stuff
Many thanks!
(*Man - I love this 'talk w/ the authors and designers' thing!!*)
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Octa
Learned Scribe
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 15:22:36
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| Steven- I had found the Family name its in Shining Sea, and the name is Akeyn or Akeym, can't remember which. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 00:44:14
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
I have a few questions related to the Shadow Thieves, if I may:
1) In Lords of Darkness, the number of Shades was reduced from eight to five, with each Shade being assigned an entire country or region rather than a district. As well as this, the number of Cloakmasters was changed from something like 50+ to only a dozen. What made the Shadow Council decide to change things so drastically?
2) Were the two new Shades introduced in Lords of Darkness (Darlan Mortem and Nulara "Silversong" Haphet) the two previously unnamed Shades, or were they newly promoted to their positions?
3) Three of those Shades named in LoI and Cloak & Dagger were gone in Lords of Darkness (namely Sammar Rendasc, Suldax Tampcoin, and Kerindra Lynnrenno). Any clues as to what happened to them (and the unnamed Shades, if Mortem and Hapet weren't them)?
EDIT: I'm guessing deaths, probably at least one of them due to the Sythillisians.
4) In City of Splendors: Waterdeep, Marune is said to report directly to the Shade of Baldur's Gate (Orniiv "The Eclipse" Fandarfall). How come he doesn't report to the Shade of the Sword Coast North (Nulara Haphet)?
5) Given that Shadow Thieves are only supposed to know the identity of their direct superior, what happens when someone is promoted within the organization? Killing everyone who knew the promotee seems a little drastic even for the Shadow Thieves ;).
EDIT 2: Just remembered another question I meant to ask.
6) Give the immense secrecy of the organization, how likely do you think it is that the Shadow Thieves have been infilitrated by certain other groups of thieves? I'm specifically thinking of the Night Masks (who are obviously in direct competition with the Saerloon branch of the STs) and the Dark Dagger.
#1-3: Can't give you much of an answer there, as I wasn't the one who made those decisions in LoD.
#4: Eric Boyd might have an erudite answer for this one which may've grown out of Cloak & Dagger or Lords of Darkness. I'm unsure at present.
#5: Most often, advancement happens by someone killing their superior and assuming their position. In that way, it's often unnecessary to kill all who knew the guy. Everyone who used to be an equal is now beneath him (which I believe fits the format) and those who worked beneath him are still beneath him. It does lead to power struggles immediately beneath him as people shuffle for status and position therein, and that's probably where the bulk of change-overs in status happen within the Shadow Thieves.
#6: Assuming Rhinnom Dannihyr is still in charge, about as likely as Khelben's Moonstars getting infiltrated by personal agents of Manshoon. That is to say, not at all likely....in my mental image of the Shadow Thieves and the Realms....
SES |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Questions for Steven Schend
