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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 20:41:07
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There are an awful lot of divine spells out there now. I was wondering how some of you deal with such huge cleric spell lists? We create deity specific lists based on the domains possessed by god. It seems to work quite well. But it does require defining each domain as to which type of spells to go along with it. There are so many domains and so many deities. And now so many spells as well.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 21:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
There are an awful lot of divine spells out there now. I was wondering how some of you deal with such huge cleric spell lists? We create deity specific lists based on the domains possessed by god. It seems to work quite well. But it does require defining each domain as to which type of spells to go along with it. There are so many domains and so many deities. And now so many spells as well.
Well I maintain data files as needed. It is not like you will have 100 Clerics playing one game al with different Domains and/or Cleric spell lists. Also at times might not allow certain spells. Yes over time the data files can go is size and strorage might become a problem depending on resources, should this happen delete files no longer needed. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 01:55:17
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Does your group's cleric's create a small list of spells that they choose from each day, tailored specifically to their deity, or do they peruse all the spells cleric's seem to have access to? It's so much to manage for players. Some players can handle juggling that many options but many have trouble remembering how one of their feats works. (Obviously those players should steer clear of spellcasters.) Maybe there is a rule stated somewhere that narrows the spell options for an individual cleric. I'm great with setting details, but I stumble on remembering the simplist of rules sometimes.
It would be nice to say to a player, "I don't think (insert deity's name here) would grant you that spell," but our players always insist on a reason why they can't do something and then want to backtrack because they feel their character would have known that. They need something to go on.
What exactly is on your data discs? Is it just all the spells catalogued so you can instantly access what you need? That would be handy indeed. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 03:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
Does your group's cleric's create a small list of spells that they choose from each day, tailored specifically to their deity, or do they peruse all the spells cleric's seem to have access to? It's so much to manage for players. Some players can handle juggling that many options but many have trouble remembering how one of their feats works. (Obviously those players should steer clear of spellcasters.) Maybe there is a rule stated somewhere that narrows the spell options for an individual cleric. I'm great with setting details, but I stumble on remembering the simplist of rules sometimes.
Most of the Clerics do have a perfered list, though I always keep available all permitted spells. Depending on player and in game information they will vary from normal perferred list. Keeping track of details always can be a problem for both DM and players at times. The higher the level play the more invoved the lists are. Also more equipment, etc. The use of notes become more important if one detailed specific, the player certainly is expected to record what spells selected, though the DM might need a summery of spells selected. The conversion of selected spells to healing, does complicate keeping track, however ticking off even spell level cast can serve the DM in many cases.
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It would be nice to say to a player, "I don't think (insert deity's name here) would grant you that spell," but our players always insist on a reason why they can't do something and then want to backtrack because they feel their character would have known that. They need something to go on.
You should not say as DM "I do not think your deity will grant that spell" , the DM should say "The deity will not grant chaos (or even a specific spell) because deity oposes chaos (or deity just having a bad hair day ;-), the DM should always have a reason a spell is denied before a player asked why was that not granted. It might be lack of full duty [higher level spells might not be provided] it might be because of region operating in, and so on.) sometimes in game there needs to be no explaination, however Out Of Game there certainly should be a ready explaination that can be provided.
quote:
What exactly is on your data discs? Is it just all the spells catalogued so you can instantly access what you need? That would be handy indeed.
Staying for the most part with core rules, the data lists are the general lists and the domain spell lists. With occasional notes as to spells not granted by certain deities. There also was an old (2nd Edition) Drow spell list that I did maintain. I would advise using a text file rather then the more verbose word processors that add frills. I perfer KIS (Keep It Simple) as much as posible and do not need frills that eat up storage space. |
Edited by - Kentinal on 14 Jan 2005 03:14:45 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 12:18:02
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I allow most any spell from any of the Offical WotC products provided they don't conflict with a god's portfolio or alignment, i.e. no evil spells by followers of a good god.
Also any spell that is an Initiate only spell for the Realms is restricted in that same way, even if the spell might be listed as a generic spell in a different WotC book.
As far as how spellcasting for divine casters work in my games, prepare your spell list, but I won't hold you to it. Unless there are times I prohibit a spell to you at a particular moment, but if you it is on your prepared list, then you will most likely be able to still cast it. (Miracle and Gate are two big ones in this regard) |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 18:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
Does your group's cleric's create a small list of spells that they choose from each day, tailored specifically to their deity, or do they peruse all the spells cleric's seem to have access to? It's so much to manage for players. Some players can handle juggling that many options but many have trouble remembering how one of their feats works. (Obviously those players should steer clear of spellcasters.) Maybe there is a rule stated somewhere that narrows the spell options for an individual cleric. I'm great with setting details, but I stumble on remembering the simplist of rules sometimes.
It would be nice to say to a player, "I don't think (insert deity's name here) would grant you that spell," but our players always insist on a reason why they can't do something and then want to backtrack because they feel their character would have known that. They need something to go on.
What exactly is on your data discs? Is it just all the spells catalogued so you can instantly access what you need? That would be handy indeed.
The only changes I've made to cleric lists is removing all the evil and necromantic spells that, logically, no good cleric would cast. As we don't play evil characters, this works better than preprinted lists where we have to mark thru all those spells our characters couldn't cast anyway which made for one ugly sheet when done. I typed out all the spells from the books I own (except for a couple) and have to update it with the newer tomes out now. (and one or two I'd missed the first time around....) |
Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 20:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
Does your group's cleric's create a small list of spells that they choose from each day, tailored specifically to their deity, or do they peruse all the spells cleric's seem to have access to? It's so much to manage for players. Some players can handle juggling that many options but many have trouble remembering how one of their feats works. (Obviously those players should steer clear of spellcasters.) Maybe there is a rule stated somewhere that narrows the spell options for an individual cleric. I'm great with setting details, but I stumble on remembering the simplist of rules sometimes.
It would be nice to say to a player, "I don't think (insert deity's name here) would grant you that spell," but our players always insist on a reason why they can't do something and then want to backtrack because they feel their character would have known that. They need something to go on.
What exactly is on your data discs? Is it just all the spells catalogued so you can instantly access what you need? That would be handy indeed.
The only changes I've made to cleric lists is removing all the evil and necromantic spells that, logically, no good cleric would cast. As we don't play evil characters, this works better than preprinted lists where we have to mark thru all those spells our characters couldn't cast anyway which made for one ugly sheet when done. I typed out all the spells from the books I own (except for a couple) and have to update it with the newer tomes out now. (and one or two I'd missed the first time around....)
By Necromancy, do you mean ALL Necromancy spells or just certain ones? Because of you remove ALL of them, then you just killed a bunch of their best life-saving spells. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 20:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
By Necromancy, do you mean ALL Necromancy spells or just certain ones? Because of you remove ALL of them, then you just killed a bunch of their best life-saving spells.
I believe you missed this "that, logically, no good cleric would cast." ;-) |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 20:27:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
By Necromancy, do you mean ALL Necromancy spells or just certain ones? Because of you remove ALL of them, then you just killed a bunch of their best life-saving spells.
I believe you missed this "that, logically, no good cleric would cast." ;-)
Yeah, but Lawful Good or Neutral Good?
Neutral Good would have no problems with using alot of the battle necromancy spells, especially against Evil. One of the aspects behind Neutral Good is, Good wins against Evil at ANY Cost (not a common one, but it is an aspect). |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 20:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
By Necromancy, do you mean ALL Necromancy spells or just certain ones? Because of you remove ALL of them, then you just killed a bunch of their best life-saving spells.
I believe you missed this "that, logically, no good cleric would cast." ;-)
Yeah, but Lawful Good or Neutral Good?
Neutral Good would have no problems with using alot of the battle necromancy spells, especially against Evil. One of the aspects behind Neutral Good is, Good wins against Evil at ANY Cost (not a common one, but it is an aspect).
Well the DM gets to rule on this in a personal campaign, however perhaps uses different lists for different aligned deities.
Even LG Clerics do use combat spells from other domains and could use them to cause evil outcomes.
In general I follow the rule it is not any spell used, it is how the spell is used that matters. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2005 : 06:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well the DM gets to rule on this in a personal campaign, however perhaps uses different lists for different aligned deities.
Even LG Clerics do use combat spells from other domains and could use them to cause evil outcomes.
In general I follow the rule it is not any spell used, it is how the spell is used that matters.
Yep. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2005 : 20:22:14
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In Dragon 299 in an article introducing some new Paladin spells the author gives a few ideas on how to handle a steady influx of divine spells into the campaign. One of her ideas was to customize spell lists to each deity. She also suggests secret knowledge (having to learn each new spell), special prayers (petitioning the deity for anything not in the PH), and the any spell you want option. Has anybody tried anything beyond "the access to anything judged on a circumstantial basis" method? That should work great for experienced players but I'm curious about how some of these other ideas might work.
 Hey, how do you quote other people? I should know this but I'm really new to forums. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2005 : 20:29:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
Hey, how do you quote other people? I should know this but I'm really new to forums.
Look at the toolbar above a post. The icon to the far right showing an arrow pointing to a post is used to quote. If you put your cursor over each of the small icons at the top, you'll be able to see each of their functions.
I hope that helps.
SB |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2005 : 21:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
In Dragon 299 in an article introducing some new Paladin spells the author gives a few ideas on how to handle a steady influx of divine spells into the campaign. One of her ideas was to customize spell lists to each deity. She also suggests secret knowledge (having to learn each new spell), special prayers (petitioning the deity for anything not in the PH), and the any spell you want option. Has anybody tried anything beyond "the access to anything judged on a circumstantial basis" method? That should work great for experienced players but I'm curious about how some of these other ideas might work.
Well in the old days, Clerics could reseach spells and perhaps a deity would grant them (that is the DM permitted the reseach to be sucessful). Depending on the spell these often could be deity related, though sometimes such might be shared with simalar faiths. So deity specific spells (moom magic for example) certainly have existed in the past and can now. Custom spell lists certainly have been used in the past. The underdark Drow spell lists being one example.
As far as it goes the DM always decides what spells can be learned, though most I suspect go for the default if it is on the Cleric list and you can cast that level you can have any on the list. The Domain spells certainly are deity related some of those divine spells are only available if the deity offers that domain at all. Some of the spells should never be put on the general Cleric list.
As for the best way for you to handle new spells I am uncertain, this depends on what you are comfortable with.
The first thing you have t do is decide that you will permit the spell into the game. If you decide not to problem over ;-).
If you decide to allow the spell you need to decide how it enters the game and how it becomes learned by others. Perhaps diety will grant spell to the most devote, just those that follow the deity, perhaps become available to followers of all deities that have that domain, or be added to the general list.
Depending on souce of spell, the designer might provide guidelines as to whom should have access to the spell. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2005 : 11:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
Hey, how do you quote other people? I should know this but I'm really new to forums.
Look at the toolbar above a post. The icon to the far right showing an arrow pointing to a post is used to quote. If you put your cursor over each of the small icons at the top, you'll be able to see each of their functions.
I hope that helps.
SB
Thank you.  |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 02:13:47
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
By Necromancy, do you mean ALL Necromancy spells or just certain ones? Because of you remove ALL of them, then you just killed a bunch of their best life-saving spells.
I believe you missed this "that, logically, no good cleric would cast." ;-)
Yeah, but Lawful Good or Neutral Good?
Neutral Good would have no problems with using alot of the battle necromancy spells, especially against Evil. One of the aspects behind Neutral Good is, Good wins against Evil at ANY Cost (not a common one, but it is an aspect).
Usually a Neutral Good cleric as that was the alignment of the cleric I'd designed the list for. But basically any non-evil aligned cleric can use that list as I removed all the [evil] descriptor spells and those that are more aimed at an evil-aligned character.
And that assessment would depend highly on the deity the cleric worships (all our clerics worship gods, not philosophies or ideals) as whether or not they could access necromantic spells.
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 03:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
And that assessment would depend highly on the deity the cleric worships (all our clerics worship gods, not philosophies or ideals) as whether or not they could access necromantic spells.
I, personally, have never understood the concept of worshipping an ideal... It just doesn't work for this hamster. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 03:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
And that assessment would depend highly on the deity the cleric worships (all our clerics worship gods, not philosophies or ideals) as whether or not they could access necromantic spells.
I, personally, have never understood the concept of worshipping an ideal... It just doesn't work for this hamster.
I suspect cheese works better, or at least greens.
Every religion offers or at least proclaims an ideal to strive for to further the goal of the deity. What I believe is being said is that not gerneric Clerics are permitted. This though leaves me wondering if Nature worship is permitted (Druids). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 07:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
And that assessment would depend highly on the deity the cleric worships (all our clerics worship gods, not philosophies or ideals) as whether or not they could access necromantic spells.
I, personally, have never understood the concept of worshipping an ideal... It just doesn't work for this hamster.
I toyed with the idea a few months ago, of making this Eberron concept exist in my FR games... at least for a time.
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2005 : 02:30:14
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youquote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
And that assessment would depend highly on the deity the cleric worships (all our clerics worship gods, not philosophies or ideals) as whether or not they could access necromantic spells.
I, personally, have never understood the concept of worshipping an ideal... It just doesn't work for this hamster.
Our group didn't either. In fact, it's never come up in conversation. We all just went ahead and designed cleric characters who follow a deity.
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Cleric spell lists
