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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 00:31:57
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Whilst I acknowledge the fan base out there who want everything detailed (as do I on many occasions and on differing areas/topics of the Realms), I for one also advocate flexibility in the Realms. I do so from a shared world perspective and also because dangling, undetailed plot/campaign threads have led to some of the best FR work.
I see no problem whatsoever in not detailing ALL the Lords of Waterdeep, or crashed enclaves of Netheril or Runemasters of the Twisted Rune, etc. etc. Such built-in flexibility has been a feature of the Forgotten Realms since the earliest products and shouldn't cease IMHO.
I think that with the advent of 2E and the super regional products done by Steven Schend, we have been spoilt for detail and realmslore. The pendulum then swung the other way but appears to be swinging in the right direction once again. Don't rock the boat, guys and gals!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 01:01:08
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Since we started to drag the other topic off topic, we can continue here as George said. :)
Now as I said, or maybe I didn't make it clear, I don't mind minor changes or hells I don't even mind that TSR/WOTC left some things unanswered like all of the Rune or the Lords of Waterdeep.
BUT BUT BUT
When big sweeping changes take effect, I want to know WHYS and the HOWS and the WHEREFORES, etc.
Case in point the planar changes. :) Yes this has been a sore subject for years now and it is the most battled out and arguemented topic that has drawn sides and heated words have been said about it over and over again and if there is one change to the setting that has caused more fans to draw sides it's that change.
Or like I said maybe Steven, Ed, Eric, and others just spoiled us in 2e. :)
Sure I'd love to see the Dawn Cat also given more info but we have been told over and over, "It's not going to happen because it didn't effect mortals." SO WHAT! It effected the setting even if it didn't effect the mortals living in Realmspace.
Ah well. Like I said maybe I'm just to much of a vocal loudmouth. :) But as I said to Gray, who has been on the recieving end of my tongue lashing one to many times, I was so glad that WOTC gave us the start of an in game explaination to the planar changes because we found out Lloth changed her plane in 1372/73, which is better then SKR's, "The planes have always been the way they are in the FRCS, and in the Player's Guide, and thus all your old Realms and Planescape material based on the Wheel/Ring is wrong." And before someone jumps down my throat about that, those ARE his words and he has said it more then once on his boards. And also before someone brings up SKR's words that the other game designers agreed with the cosmology changes, Ed said in his December 11th reply to Shemmy that he did NOT want a different cosmology to be devoluped but since there is one we are stuck with it as a canon official cosmology.
So I'll leave it. Please WOTC fix your changes and errors with an in game explaination. Hells I've even asked Rich on why he changed a NPC from 2e and his answer was, "I needed a evil NPC and I just took her, removed her old familar, and made her evil. Why? Because I felt like it and no I have no idea why she turned evil or where her old faerie dragon familiar went."
THIS annoys me to no end and yes I realize that there is only a certain amount of room in sourcebooks. :)
And I hope to gods this thread doesn't turn into another flame thread like the discussions do on the WOTC boards when some of us disagree with WOTC's changes. Because frankly I'm tired of being told, "Don't complain about the changes if you don't agree with them. You are allowed to change them as DM and if you continue to complain you are just "whiny". And it's not WOTC's job to fix thier errors and mistakes, it's yours."
Which anyone with a brain realizes this, but I, like Wooly, also enjoy using canon material as much as I can otherwise I'd DM in my own homebrew world. However it is NOT my job to fix thier mistakes unless they want to start sending me a paycheck. :) Notice here I said mistakes or errors. I, again, am not talking about things that are left open for the DM to flush out. :)
But you know who I really feel bad for? The people who started with 3/3.5e FR. They have no material that offers them npc's that made the setting. Where are all the sages, innkeepers, town guards, streetsweepers, tax collectors, etc. 1e/2e Realmslore is packed with these types of npc's and they have basically been ignored totally for more of the "iconic" NPC's. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Jan 2005 01:44:08 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 01:13:50
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I'm going to reply to Dargoth's rant here?
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I find the arguement that "Wizards shouldnt reveal X because it might not fit in with someones campaign" quite bizarre
If a DM is looking for unrestricted freedom in a campaign setting then they should do a home brew not the FR.
If we take the "Wizards shouldnt reveal X because it might not fit in with someones campaign" arguement to the exstreme then WOTC should never tie any of Faeruns historic sites down. After all there might be a DM out there who finds Shadowdale the perfect town for his campaign but unfortunately he wanted to set it by the sea. So should Shadowdale have been written up as a Generic town with no fixed location?
The problem is that some people are afraid to step away from the published setting and WOTC seem to think that there way to keep them happy is to make things vague.
As I said I want to know what the officially story is, that doesnt mean that Im going to use it example WOTC introduced Smokepowder into the FR after the Time of Troubles (which I view as one of the worse things they ever did) according to the 3.0 source books Smoke powder is still present in the FR well guess what you wont find it in my campaign.
The problem with the way the FR is being run at the moment is that the Tail is wagging the dog. The DM should change the setting to what suits their campaign, the Setting SHOULD NOT be changed/marketed to suit all the DMs campaigns
So endth the rant
I completely disagree.
There should be a balance between making those who don't DM or play in the setting happy, and those who actually drive the sales of the product. The Campaign Setting. Me. Happy. They need to leave some things vague and not fill in every single inch of the country side with towns, rivers, forests etc. We, by "we" I mean those who the Campaign Setting (not the published novels) is marketed for, DM's and players. We should be able to have the freedom to fill in the blanks where we want without something getting in the way. That is not to say that we don't remove or move what we don't like, we do. I think they're doing a pretty good of leaving open what they should leave open, and filling in what they should fill in.
To say that if we don't like it we should home brew is asinine, and really kind of inconsiderate not too mention slightly rude. That would be like me saying if you don't like the lack of detail they put in the Realms go find another setting or detail your own. Kapish?
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Case in point the planar changes. :) Yes this has been a sore subject for years now and it is the most battled out and arguemented topic that has drawn sides and heated words have been said about it over and over again and if there is one change to the setting that has caused more fans to draw sides it's that change.
Oh my God you have no idea how this bugs me. It's like the gods created the universe and went on a coffee break just before they were almost finished, and we're at the front counter dinging the little bell looking craning our necks to see if anyone is in the back room. Waiting for them to get done smoking out back by the employee's entrance.....
I don't really mind fitting a planar cosmology to the Realms just finish it for cripes sake!
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 01:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
I don't really mind fitting a planar cosmology to the Realms just finish it for cripes sake!
That goes back to my, "I want to know more! Give me a darn reason WHY the planes are this way instead of "Oh, we felt like changing it and they have always been this way." BAH BAH BAH BAH! Or at least give us more in game explainations, which is why I liked the Lolth explaination. Just don't pull the rug over my eyes and give me that above lame arse excuse. It's insulting. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Jan 2005 01:38:09 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 02:00:54
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"As people are quoting it I figured Id repost the rant over here
I find the arguement that "Wizards shouldnt reveal X because it might not fit in with someones campaign" quite bizarre
If a DM is looking for unrestricted freedom in a campaign setting then they should do a home brew not the FR.
If we take the "Wizards shouldnt reveal X because it might not fit in with someones campaign" arguement to the exstreme then WOTC should never tie any of Faeruns historic sites down. After all there might be a DM out there who finds Shadowdale the perfect town for his campaign but unfortunately he wanted to set it by the sea. So should Shadowdale have been written up as a Generic town with no fixed location?
The problem is that some people are afraid to step away from the published setting and WOTC seem to think that there way to keep them happy is to make things vague.
As I said I want to know what the officially story is, that doesnt mean that Im going to use it example WOTC introduced Smokepowder into the FR after the Time of Troubles (which I view as one of the worse things they ever did) according to the 3.0 source books Smoke powder is still present in the FR well guess what you wont find it in my campaign.
The problem with the way the FR is being run at the moment is that the Tail is wagging the dog. The DM should change the setting to what suits their campaign, the Setting SHOULD NOT be changed/marketed to suit all the DMs campaigns
So endth the rant"
Kuje31 said: Absolutly. I agree with you 100%!
Dear god we agree on something!  
To reduce my arguement to one sentence: It is better to have to much infomation and not need it/use, than to have to little infomation and find it lacking. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 12 Jan 2005 02:19:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 02:08:33
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As I posted elsewhere...
I'm going to agree with Kuje on this one. I'm not the "canon Nazi" he is, but if something changes drastically, I want an explanation... As I've said before, 1E and 2E were, rules-wise, very similar. And yet we had a big RSE to explain the changes. 2E and 3E are almost totally separate beasts. WotC ran around changing things willy-nilly, and then gave us either no explanation, or a lame one at best. As I long-time Realms fan, I feel I have not only been slighted, I have been disregarded by the same company that's earned thousands of dollars of my money.
As for the amount of lore readily available, I think that WotC has maintained a nice balance. They've offered enough detail to those who want it, but left it vague enough for those who want freedom to mess around. I reject the argument that less is better and that nailing down a few things is limiting to DMs.
I prefer to stick to canon, but it's not because I fear going outside of it -- its because I find canon quite satisfactory, and I don't see it as being at all restrictive. One of the things that attracted me to the Realms was the fact that it is a dynamic setting where things happen and change -- if I was to disregard the changes, then the Realms would lose their appeal for me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 02:24:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Kuje31 said: Absolutly. I agree with you 100%!
Dear god we agree on something!
To reduce my arguement to one sentence: It is better to have to much infomation and not need it/use, than to have to little infomation and find it lacking.
Funny, but I was thinking the same thing about the "Dear gods, I actually agree with Dargoth about something FINALLY." :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Jan 2005 02:27:47 |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 03:11:49
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Wow. This is starting to sound like an argument about gun control:
"It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."
But, in this instance, I agree. I'd like to have the details there (ESPECIALLY in cases like the Dawn Cataclysm, the Return of Bane, the Death of Syluné, etc. ad infinitum nauseum) and be able to say, "Nope, don't want X, so I'll have Z instead."
While there should be some areas that are left open, for the most part it should reflect the old belief that "The rules are guidelines". We're all smart enough to know that we can change some things without the Copyright Nazi's swooping down on us like a flock of crows. |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 05:49:52
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I see no problem whatsoever in not detailing ALL the Lords of Waterdeep,
I have no problem with leaving something to mystery or for DMs to fill in. My problem resides when I see pages upon pages of Prestige Classes/Feats/Skills/Etc., with nary any new lore.
quote:
I think that with the advent of 2E and the super regional products done by Steven Schend, we have been spoilt for detail and realmslore. The pendulum then swung the other way but appears to be swinging in the right direction once again. Don't rock the boat, guys and gals!
-- George Krashos
I'll rock it as much as I damn well want since it's my dollars buying the product. The company is free to ignore me. And I am free, if WOTC swings back to the pages of Crunch, to spend my money elsewhere. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 05:53:02
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
But you know who I really feel bad for? The people who started with 3/3.5e FR. They have no material that offers them npc's that made the setting. Where are all the sages, innkeepers, town guards, streetsweepers, tax collectors, etc. 1e/2e Realmslore is packed with these types of npc's and they have basically been ignored totally for more of the "iconic" NPC's.
Up to us FR veteran to guide them with tales of lore and point them to the proper scrolls to find valued information. We are like the old grizzled Sergeants in those war pictures... . We have our combat stripes, now it's our turn to guide the young ones through these dangerous times. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 05:57:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Oh my God you have no idea how this bugs me. It's like the gods created the universe and went on a coffee break just before they were almost finished, and we're at the front counter dinging the little bell looking craning our necks to see if anyone is in the back room. Waiting for them to get done smoking out back by the employee's entrance.....
Thank you for giving me a visual image of deities that I won't be able to shake for some time
Ding!
Eilistraee peers around the corner. "It's some fat kid with a bag of chips, and a soda at the counter."
Mystra: "You're turn."
Eilistraee: "Nope, I had the last one."
Mystra: "Is he wearing a Matrix tenchcoat?"
Eilistraee: "Yep."
Mystra: "DAMN!" |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 13:01:19
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I have no problem with leaving something to mystery or for DMs to fill in. My problem resides when I see pages upon pages of Prestige Classes/Feats/Skills/Etc., with nary any new lore.
You can have too many PRC's, you can never have too much lore.
I think there is a difference between "detail" and "lore". Lore is a story about an innkeeper's son in Deadsnows who ran off and saved a virgin from being eaten by a dragon. Because everyone knows that virgins are particularly tasty.
What I consider needless details are city stat blocks, just give the population, gold count and location. Save the space on how many of what class on more lore!
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 14:07:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
What I consider needless details are city stat blocks, just give the population, gold count and location. Save the space on how many of what class on more lore!
Yes, I have encountered people who want details on number of paladins present, highest level character residing in the city, and other details that abound with "numbers." But, if you so much as try to give them a bit of a back story on the paladin running the city and how he/she ended up there, there is a decry of that being "too much" detail. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 17:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
What I consider needless details are city stat blocks, just give the population, gold count and location. Save the space on how many of what class on more lore!
Yes, I have encountered people who want details on number of paladins present, highest level character residing in the city, and other details that abound with "numbers." But, if you so much as try to give them a bit of a back story on the paladin running the city and how he/she ended up there, there is a decry of that being "too much" detail.
To me a City Stat Block is how they were doing it in Underdark. Gave me what information I needed as far as what the population consisted of and who the major folks were. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 22:36:54
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Well, in an upcoming extravaganza release from the great Candlekeep website we'll hopefully see a city write-up from yours truly that is a synthesis of the old and new. I thought it worked pretty well.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 00:32:46
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Hey George did you or Eric have anything to do with Dun-Tharos?
Having finally finished Bruce Cordells Lady of Poison novel Ive got a hankering for some more info on Dun-Tharos, hopefully there will be some info in Lost Empires of Faerun (only 17 days till febuary)hopefully a bit more info then the half page of text that was included in Unapproachable east |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 02:05:05
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I doubt it simply because Dun-Tharos, whilst a leftover from the ancient empire of Narfell, isn't in ruins and has a present-day existence in terms of being first the druidic Nentyarch's abode and then the Rotting Man's lair. It may feature, but I doubt it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 05:56:44
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, in an upcoming extravaganza release from the great Candlekeep website we'll hopefully see a city write-up from yours truly that is a synthesis of the old and new. I thought it worked pretty well.
-- George Krashos
I haven't even had a chance to look that over yet . . .  I'm assuming that is the file you sent to the Sage for the Compendium?
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 06:21:15
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Yeppers. I had a re-read last night and saw 1 or 2 minor typos which I'll have to fix. I'd be interested to hear what you think of it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 06:28:17
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Hey George
What can you tell me about the church of Waukeen in Impiltur?
The PGTF lists Waukeen as a favoured deity in Impiltur
Particularly looking for names of temples, which cities have them and church leaders. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 06:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
"I needed a evil NPC and I just took her, removed her old familar, and made her evil. Why? Because I felt like it and no I have no idea why she turned evil or where her old faerie dragon familiar went."
Is this the official reason?
Jeez Louise and Chinese Cheese!
[ERROR: User failure due to incredulity at evidence of supreme lack of imagination. Please replace user and try again. Thank you.]
That was the first such change I ever witnessed, because I was one of the people who had to start with 3e, not counting the copy of Volo's Guide to the North I'd picked up many years before in a used bookstore, when I had no idea what all those numbers meant. When I was creating my first PC, a wizard from Silverymoon, I was using the information from that book. Then I noticed that the person I'd put down as one of his role models was now . . . evil. And had an imp disguised as a raven for a familiar, instead of the cute prankster I'd writen about.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 07:07:40
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Yeppers. I had a re-read last night and saw 1 or 2 minor typos which I'll have to fix. I'd be interested to hear what you think of it.
-- George Krashos
Right.
If I can snag Sage's copy, I'll let you know.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 02:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Hey George
What can you tell me about the church of Waukeen in Impiltur?
Absolutely nothing!! Seriously, Impiltur has always been very scant on details in the published Realms and my 'work' (such as it is) on Impiltur has focused mainly on the history to this point. My thinking is that if I get the back-story straight and work out the whys and wherefores of Impiltur "today", I'll then be better able to write about and conceptualise that "today".
quote:
The PGTF lists Waukeen as a favoured deity in Impiltur
Well, I can see why it would, and I have no great problem with that (although I probably would've preferred Shaundakal). Impiltur, by necessity of its geographical position twixt the Vast and the lands to the east (Thesk, Aglarond, Thay, Kara-Tur)and north (Damara, Narfell & Vassa)is like something of a trading hub because it is a stable, fair place to do business and trade.
Some of the concepts I've been wrestling with of late revolve around how you explain and accurately portray a society ruled by and dominated (faith-wise) by followers of the Triad (or other goodly gods - things are being further ret-conned thanks to "The Rage": paladin of Sune, anyone?), that has the mercantilistic aspect detailed above, also has a large area of what you would consider to be "frontier" territory and is known to be 'the' place to go if you want to hire mercenary soldiers in the Unapproachable East. I think, at this stage, that the thing that brings all of this together and will be the binding fibre of Impiltur (at least for me) is and always has been the outsider-phobia its population suffers from. With 'demons' under every bed, you can justify about anything!
quote:
Particularly looking for names of temples, which cities have them and church leaders.
Ed might be a better bet for this stuff but he'd just be ... *gasp* ... making it up! You can do the same.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 14 Jan 2005 02:18:41 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2005 : 02:25:36
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| I hope you like Paladins of Sune George because one of the things thats going to be included in my Complete FR article for Candlekeep is introducing Paladins of Waukeen! |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Detail in the Realms
