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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 17:01:48
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quote:
Originally posted by LaughingWizard
Do any of you find that extensive outlining "spoils" the freshness of the story? I recall Hemmingway once said not to talk about a piece you were working on; to paraphrase the thought, that its telling would take the drive out of you to write it down. (For myself, I find that I like to outline, but that it can also "cage me in.")
It didn't spoil anything for me, but it did get me more excited about writing certain parts of the book. (And likewise, there were a couple chapters I did not look foward to.)
The level of detail varies in my outline. I'll include specific dialogue or a fight sequence if I feel strongly about an idea. For the most part, it is just a guideline to keep me on track. You have to remain flexible to the demands of both your characters and your editor. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
Edited by - Kameron M. Franklin on 12 Jan 2005 17:02:31 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 17:04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by wwwwwww
quote:
Do any of you find that extensive outlining "spoils" the freshness of the story? I recall Hemmingway once said not to talk about a piece you were working on; to paraphrase the thought, that its telling would take the drive out of you to write it down. (For myself, I find that I like to outline, but that it can also "cage me in.")
I do know that many writers like to keep some spontaneity in their stories, so they intentionally keep their outlines very vague and use them only as a guideline, while the characters themselves actually take control and drive the story along.
The other problem I find with outlining isn't so much the "hemming in" effect (though there is some of that in feel and in getting excited about the plot). What I find is when the characters really get flowing and I give them the reins to tell the story their way, they take the story in directions unexpected by the plot outline. Granted, they're heading in the same general direction as to the culmination of the story, but now I've got to reconfigure and rethink the four intervening chapters to make the book come out correct in word count and all that jazz.
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 17:09:22
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I don't find that using an outline makes the story seem stale even as I'm trying to bang it out. Maybe that's because no outline can encompass everything that's going to happen as the tale unfolds. You're always making up some of it as you compose the text, and thus, surprising yourself on some level.
I do think, though, that the vaguer the plan, the more fun writing is, because there are more surprises, and more of a feeling of spontaneity. But since the goal is productivity, not fun, I generally work from a plan that isn't so vague.
I agree with Papa H. that it can be dangerous to talk about stories you mean to write by and by, and or that you're in the middle of. In effect, you've told the story to an audience once, satisfying the need to do so, and that can make it more difficult to get it written down. Of course, not everybody's mind works this way, but it can be a problem for some. |
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James P. Davis
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
244 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 19:42:39
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| I tend to think of the outline as just the bones of the story, with bits of flesh here and there where certain plot-points need to occur. I may change details and whatnot as I go, but I rarely mess with the bones, the underlying structure, which leaves me alot of room to surprise myself. |
"Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red."--Clive Barker
FR: RotD2:"Possessions"
Wizards:Bloodwalk
Citadels: The Shield of Weeping Ghosts
Wilds: The Restless Shore
Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Circle of Skulls (May 2010)
Book trailers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC-ska7ohVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfvFdQ8bLp0 |
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LaughingWizard
Acolyte
USA
29 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 13:00:11
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| Points well taken, Gentlemen. Thank you. I probably haven't been published yet, because, I'm not outlining well (You know the typical "I got bogged down in the middle, and never got to the end schtick". Methinks I'll, rethink...er, rewrite, my plan! |
A woman, or a man, may come to hold many treasures in life. Gold, gems, a good name, lovers, good friends, influence, high rank--all of these are of value. All of these most covet. But of them all the most valuable, I tell ye, are friends good and true. Have these, and ye will scarce notice the lack if ye never win aught else."
The adventuress Sharanralee, Ballads and Lore of One Dusty Road, Year of the Wandering Maiden
From Spellfire by Ed Greenwood |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 18:59:48
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Hiya,
As a unpublished fledgling, okay very fledgling, writer this is something I've been pondering and struggling with, which is:
How do you get a feel or know how long a chapter should be. When is a good place to start a chapter and end a chapter?.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 19:53:39
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Some guidelines I follow:
Changes of Location
Changes of POV character
Obvious major scene breaks
Dramatic cliffhanger effect |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 22:18:27
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What Kameron said.
We might also note that some stories have an implicit internal organization which suggests chapter divisions. Say you were doing a novel hat happens over a week's time. It might work well to split it into seven chapters: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc.
Basically (in my opinion, anyway) chapter divisions are kind of arbitrary and not terribly important. The vital task is to tell a worthwhile plot in a series of dramatically effective scenes. Succeed in that, and readers will like the book whether you decided to slice it into ten chapters, forty-three, or none at all. |
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James P. Davis
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
244 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2005 : 23:04:48
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As Kam and Richard said, its sort of a specific choice and arbitrary at the same time. I look at the outline and choose a good change of POV scene that carries that little cliffhanger that (I hope) makes the reader say, "Okay, just one more chapter..."
So, specific for dramatic effect and arbitrary where length is concerned for me. I have an idea how long the chapters should be on average, but I don't stick to that page number as a hard and fast rule. |
"Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red."--Clive Barker
FR: RotD2:"Possessions"
Wizards:Bloodwalk
Citadels: The Shield of Weeping Ghosts
Wilds: The Restless Shore
Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Circle of Skulls (May 2010)
Book trailers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC-ska7ohVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfvFdQ8bLp0 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2005 : 07:02:39
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I just have to say that I'm really impressed with people who can set out a schedule for writing and stick to it day after day. I can't do that even for my everyday life, let alone writing.
I'm more of an impulse writer, I get the idea and have a drive to get it down. Then it pretty much consumes my life until I get it written. This is why I eschew outlines in all but the most unusual circumstances, because if I outline I've put it down in some form and the drive subsides. I tend to know where I want things to go, and let it develop on its own.
Finally, I find that the hardest part is almost always the first two or three paragraphs. Most of the short stories I create (I don't write novels, I'll leave that to the professionals :) I work over in my mind for days before hand, but I just get the interesting things, all the action the characters go through. I often don't figure out exactly HOW they get into everything until I start writing, and it's the hardest part. Once I reach the parts I've thought over, it goes quickly.
All of this worked fine for college english classes, now I just write for myself. Sometimes I wish I could keep taking those classes for forever.
I would also like to ask a pair of questions that have puzzled me for years: 1) How do you name your characters? Especially in a fantasy setting like FR where you can't go to a book of historical names of the time. And 2) How do you strike the right balance of putting your characters in too much danger (and courting deus ex machina) and not enough (and having it be a cake walk)?
Many thanks |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2005 : 19:14:58
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For some reason, I find naming fantasy characters, lands, cities, etc. to be rather difficult. But I crib from the FR Campaign setting list of names, steal words from foreign languages, slap syllables together randomly until something sounds right--one way or another, everything winds up with a name eventually.
As far as how much danger is right: My guiding principle is that in an adventure story, thriller, or tale of horror, the more trouble the protagonist is in, the better. But when you apply this general principle, you must bear in mind that, assuming the protagonist is meant to win, you can't pit him against an adversary so powerful that there's no way for him to score a victory that's remotely credible. Now, the point at which the antagonist becomes so powerful that a win for the hero is simply preposterous depends on the capabilities of the hero. We aren't going to believe it if Jimmy Olsen KOs Godzilla, but it's a lot more credible if Superman does it.
Also, in a story of any length (like a novel), the hero isn't necessarily going to face the maximum amount of danger in every encounter, just sometimes. In Lord of the Rings, Frodo isn't always contending with Ringwraiths and Balrogs. Sometimes it's orcs. That keeps the encounters with the big kahuna villains scary and suspenseful. Whereas they'd come to seem like paper tigers if they were jumping out from behind trees or crawling out from under the bed every five minutes without ever slipping in a lucky shot and killing our hero. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2005 : 21:35:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
slap syllables together randomly until something sounds right--one way or another, everything winds up with a name eventually.
I'm not a published author, but when I need a name, that's what I do, too.
Also, every now and again a name comes to me out of the blue. What I do then is find some convenient place to scribe it down. Later, I add that name to a spreadsheet that I have. I actually have two of them -- one spreadsheet is nothing but names, and the other contains the names that I have used or at the least know something about (the files are entitled "unassigned names" and "assigned names," respectively). So sometimes when I need a name, I browse the list of unassigned names. I may or may not get a hit, but if I don't, I usually have something catch my eye and wind up spawning a good name. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 00:18:11
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Sometimes names, both fantasy and non-fantasy, just pop in my head and rattle around in there until they need to be used, as if exorcised. Such was the case with "Laathine," which seemed like such a perfect elf name that I used it for the surname of my wild elf in the "The Strength of the Jester," the story that will appear in Realms of the Dragons II. But even that didn't do it, so I reused it in "Rotten Blood," which was published in Cloaked in Shadow: Dark Tales of Elves. That did the trick.
I find naming very important. When I was putting together my outline for Son of Thunder, I spent a few days mulling over a name for my protagonist. Once I decided to call him "Vell," I had a much better idea of what he's like.
I find it's an interesting exercise to look at people at random, across a bar or on a bus or something, and then decide what, if it were up to you, you would name them. If you decide to do this in a group, be sure to do it quietly enough that nobody catches on! |
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 00:19:13
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Sorta same thing with the names here. When creating a FR character for game play I do the same thing Richard does though I tend to stay away from elf characters, I just never can get the names to sound right.
For my personal world I have settled on name lists at hay day of the roman empire, from Persian names to Greek, Roman, some Celtic, as well as the Huns etc. many of the name styles just seem to fit the characters I come up with, though that is not a hard and fast rule. There are some I just create that sound like they will fit the character’s personality.
As for the challenges I follow a few basic and simple rules. Number one is ask questions, why, how or what. Why was this one person tossed in a dungeon, how did they escape? Etc. if you keep asking questions there will always be a reason for everything to happen.
The other rule I live by is this. If they can bleed they can die. My fighters no matter how good they are always get wounded, sometimes horribly(I have one hero who is missing an arm). I also plan on killing off characters, even ones I like or might be popular. If it is in the story for them to die, well they will die. Er well that is unless the editor says no then it will be out of my hands. There is one thing that drives my frustration level in reading. A hero who is surrounded by fifty bad guys all armed with swords and somehow the hero not only kills them all, but doesn’t get a single drop of blood on him and doesn’t even get a scratch. Ug…anyway just a pet peeve of mine.
The last rule I go by is have them scarred in some way. Physical scars are the easiest to have on a character and show to a reader that this character has seen better days and it also tells them that hey they can be beat or even wounded(in other words they aren’t a god of destruction). The second type is mental scars, the rarest in writing and one most overlooked. The third is spiritual scars, for as many settings that I see have religions I rarely see battles inside a person, their faith, beliefs and beliefs within their church. If you have them go through hell and come out of it have fine it just isn’t believable. have them in some way scarred, believe me it would make for a more interesting and believable character.
For me as a reader if an author has a character scarred in some way during the story they will have a life long fan. On the other hand if the author has his or her hero character never in true mortal danger they will in time loose me as a reader. I really won’t care what the character goes through because I will always know they won’t be in true danger.
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 05:06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
But I crib from the FR Campaign setting list of names, steal words from foreign languages, slap syllables together randomly until something sounds right--one way or another, everything winds up with a name eventually.
I find it almost frightening that just about everyone I know seems to do this. Hee.
Not a published author, of course, but I do that, too. I put some guidelines down for myself, though: no ridiculous amount of apostrophes or dashes, make sure the name can be pronounced, and limit the syllable count to four. (Not to malign the DL authors, but "Lauranalanthalasa" is taking it a bit too far. Even if it doesn't come up frequently.) Naming female characters is easier for me. I tend to stay away from names that have real meanings in English, though. Why? Because most of the time, what the author thinks is cool, the reader will probably find ridiculous, overwrought or cringe-worthy.
Oh -- and research the name, just in case. I've seen people name their characters Lithium and Ethylene. *giggles* And that drow named Mellifleur (honey and flower, basically. So much for kickarse, big bad drow warrior). |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 05:33:04
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Which of course brings up the question: how did the original module designers (especially for ones like Cormanthyr, which I usually raid whenever I need the name for an elven PC or NPC) come up with so many of them? The non-Ed Greenwood designers, I mean. Hmm. Maybe I should wander over and ask Ed that ask well.
Thanks to everyone who's answered so far. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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James P. Davis
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
244 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 06:55:05
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For naming characters I have several little tricks I think about while doing everyday things (one of them involves driving to work and watching license plates, heh-heh!). The last thing I want to do while working full-time is to come home, sit down at my desk and mull over just the right name to fit a character when I could be writing about that character. That said though, I am the type of person who would focus on a name to the exclusion of all else until I discovered just the right one. The feel and sound of a name helps me to shape the character which will have an impact on the story itself, so its hard for me to get going until I get it right.
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"Everybody is a book of blood; wherever we're opened, we're red."--Clive Barker
FR: RotD2:"Possessions"
Wizards:Bloodwalk
Citadels: The Shield of Weeping Ghosts
Wilds: The Restless Shore
Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep: Circle of Skulls (May 2010)
Book trailers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC-ska7ohVk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfvFdQ8bLp0 |
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Thomas M. Reid
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
334 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 16:45:43
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Lots of interesting discussion going on in this thread! So, to hit a few points:
Maintaining Writing Pace
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I preach and preach to prospective new authors the importance of hitting deadlines (in work-for-hire fiction at the very least, but in all writing to some extent). Whether you are actually under contract to produce a WotC novel or you're just slaving away on your own speculative work, make a point of reaching milestones (not just the final deadlines, but intermediate milestones). If you are under contract, do yourself a favor and make your editor happy--don't be late. Your chances of getting more contracts down the road are much better.
With that having been said, I will confess right now that I am far from perfect in this regard. Honestly, I have been slipping a lot of late, and one of the factors that has been hurting me is the internet. As a writer, much of my day is solitary (by necessity, obviously), and the cravings for human contact can get pretty overwhelming. One surrogate social outlet is the internet, particularly chat rooms and message boards. While useful in moderation, they can quickly suck up an entire day if you let them. Even just perusing an internet news or sports site regularly can be disastrous to your schedule. You'll reach the end of your day and ask, "where did the time go? What did I get accomplished today?" and either not know the answer or realize that you let yourself get carried away by it. And it's insidious; I have found myself thinking, "Not sure what to do next in this scene; I'll just check the message boards really quickly to see if anyone said anything interesting about my latest book." It's a great way to stall and avoid working. It's just too darned easy to click on the browser and open that window to the world. No effort at all, still sitting in my office, and it's "only for a moment."
My solution? I've started taking my laptop to the local coffee shop (wisely leaving the wireless network card behind), getting a good cup of my favorite beverage, and pounding out a few pages while listening to CDs with my headphones on. It's improved my efficiency quite a bit. Alternatively, when the weather gets nicer, I can take it to the park. Even when I'm at home, I've discovered the joy of taking the laptop into another room in the house and working there. Whatever it takes to stay focused and on track. Then, if I need to look something up research-wise, I do it afterward, when I return to the office computer and access to the internet. As often as not, I'm either done with my writing for the day and I'm just polishing (or planning tomorrow's polishing effort), or I'm still in the midst of writing but I'm mentally engaged in it and not as likely to stall or avoid.
As far as writing to a word count, I absolutely do. First off, the best way for me to make sure I'm getting what I need to get done each day is to know what I need to write in order to hit milestones and deadlines. I set up a spreadsheet that shows all kinds of information: number of days until deadline (using special date functions), number of words/pages per day, number of words/pages per chapter, what I've gotten written so far, etc. Actually tracking my progress that way is both paramount to keeping on pace and also useful for knowing how much I can write comfortably each day (which tells me how much work I can contract for and not wear myself out).
Maintaining a word-count pace has other benefits, too. By forcing yourself to hit a quota, you're training yourself to write for a living. It doesn't have to be much; even 500 words a day works for this. That's not to say that you should necessarily write just to that point and then stop, or that you have to hit that quota every single time. But if you can average that in the course of a week or a month (depending on how chaotic your life is), you are conditioning yourself to be a writer. Everyone has heard the people who say, "I've always thought about trying to write a book, but I never have." What separates the writers from the wannabes is not just understanding pacing and good, tight prose or having great ideas, it's having the discipline to actually write the darn book. And no one just sits down one day and starts writing regularly. In the same way you don't just go out and run a marathon without training and conditioning, you also don't just start writing a book. You have to practice and get better at it.
Not only does writing to a quota teach you how to keep your butt in the chair long enough to work, but it also trains you to get into a flow every day. Writing is hard; someone mentioned those first three paragraphs, and it's true. In order to get good at it, though, you need regular, consistent effort. A great guitar player doesn't play at his peak ability by practicing eight hours one day, skipping two days and then practicing five hours on the fourth day. He keeps his fingers limber, his memory of the music fresh, by practicing a consistent amount every day, day in and day out. It's the same with writing. If you take time every day (ideally, the same time every day--that time when you're most enthused and feeling energetic) to work at writing, you get better at it.
Some folks gear themselves up by rereading and polishing the last few pages from the previous day first, to get into the flow of the story again. Some just pick up right where they left off. Whatever works, so long as you make it a regular part of your day.
Outlining
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Outlining is one of the aspects of writing that I have A) come to appreciate much more than I used to, and B) still have to work at very hard to do well. I didn't used to enjoy outlining, and usually only gave it a cursory attempt before just diving into the writing itself. After all, the part that gets me most excited is generating that scene where all the action, intrigue, and resolution happens. I've got that image so clear in my head, and I just want to get it down on paper. Someone mentioned that outlining sort of took away from their enthusiasm, because by generating even a cursory description of the scene in question, it lost some of its luster for them. That's true. But it's also why writing is hard. The flash of inspiration is easy. Sticking with it and seeing it through to the end is what separates the writers from the people who romanticize writing.
But outlining does far more than that. It helps you figure out exactly how to get from point A to point B in the story, it helps you keep all of your elements straight, and it allows you to nail down almost every variable and surprise up front. Without it, you spend a lot of your energy during writing time thinking about how the characters got to be in the predicament they're in, or what, exactly, they have at their disposal to resolve the situation. Outlining also trains you to know how much you can fit into 320 pages. When I first started writing, my outlines would include far more story than would actually fit between the covers. Each chapter of my outline had multiple events, scene breaks, and sections of dialogue going on, and inevitably, after I started creating the chapter, it would run long. Way long. I kept having to revise my outline, trimming things out and adjusting the story to make sure I got to the end when I got to the end. My second novel, The Temple of Elemental Evil, suffered from this. The first draft burned up nearly half the page count just getting the characters to the temple. I had to go trim a ton during revisions, and as a result, several people complained that the characters became friends way too fast and easily (all of their character development along the way was no longer there, and the pacing was thrown off as a result). Now, I have a much better grasp of how much story I can write in 90k words -- I just have a better conditioned intrinsic sense of pacing -- and my stories flow better because of that.
I am just wrapping up the third book of my very first trilogy. In writing that third book, I have come to wish I knew back at the beginning of the trilogy process what I know now about outlining. There are so many things I wish I could have foreshadowed better in the first and second books, because they are such great elements in the last book. But because I didn't do as thorough a job of outlining in the beginning (I jotted down a few notes for Books 2 and 3 when I was outlining Book 1), I never gave myself the chance to include those elements initially. So I learned the hard way about the importance of outlining.
Now I preach it religiously. Outline. Know your story thoroughly before you even start typing Chapter 1 in your manuscript. You're actually doing the heavy lifting when you are doing the outline, and it should take you a significant portion of your time frame for writing the book to generate the outline. In fact, I would say that you're doing great if you only outline a couple of chapters each day during your writing time. Taking a week or two to properly outline a standard novel is not overkill, IMO. Include snippets of dialogue that you hear in your head, include bits of description, whatever you've already got implanted in your mind's eye. It'll be worth it later.
I said that you're doing the heavy lifting during outline phase, because ideally, when you're done, you know exactly what's going to be happening when you actually start writing the prose. You don't waste valuable keyboard time pondering what Character A has available to defeat Big Nasty, or why Character B knows the secret of Big Nasty's weakness. You've already got it figured out in your outline. Then the story just flows, as fast as your fingers can type. The outline is where you actually create the story; the writing is just transcribing it. 
Wow, is this long. I'll hit some more points in a second post.
Thomas |
"A knight is not truly virtuous, only truly resolved to be so."
www.thomasmreid.com |
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 17:03:03
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| I take the easy way out and use a name generator. EBoN (Everchanging Book of Names) is my personal preference. It even has an FR chapter. I'll typically generate 20 or so names until I find one that fits the character idea/portrait in my head. That's not to say I don't come up with names on my own, but more times than not, this saves me from getting stuck trying to come up with something and lets me concentrate on writing. |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Thomas M. Reid
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
334 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2005 : 17:16:10
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Chapter Length
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As almost everyone else has said, there's no hard and fast rule for this. But at the same time, there are some things to consider. First off, every scene has a right "feel" to it as far as length goes. Whether it's a fact-finding dialogue type of scene or a skin-of-the-teeth battle royale scene, the flow of the story needs a certain pace, and that pace is going to be hit in a certain number of words/pages. Some are a little longer, some shorter, but they do fall into a range, IMO. I wouldn't worry too much about chapter length early on in your efforts. Trust that, as you get more comfortable in writing, the correct length will start to become instinctive.
Funny story: When I was working on Insurrection, I had Richard Byers's first draft of Dissolution in front of me. Richard had broken his manuscript down so that each scene was a new chapter (he mentioned this earlier in this thread, I believe). That resulted in about 43 chapters in the book. I thought that was the standard style for the series, so I did it, too. When Phil (our editor) got a hold of my first draft, he wrote me back and said something like, "Cut it out! I already had to make Richard quit doing this, now you're doing it, too!" Of course, it was all with a smile, but I was easily able to adjust the manuscript during revisions to correct the problem. The reason Phil didn't want so many individual chapters was the loss of space for the text; every chapter start has half a page of white at the beginning, and it was causing the book to flow too long for the page count. So there's another concept to keep in mind when you're figuring out chapter length.
Character/Place Names
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I suck at this. I have to wrangle with all sorts of names before I find one that works. I have gotten better at it in recent years, though I still sometimes generate a real stinker and end up changing it in mid-book. Like tight prose, good pacing, and proper outlining, creating names is a learned skill, I think.
I have a few tricks I try to use. First, big long names are all right, but I like to provide shorter nicknames for those. Nicknames in general are helpful a lot of times. Also, I take a real-world name (a baby name book is great for this), change a letter or a syllable, and come up with something that sounds similar yet fresh. I also try to do at least a rudimentary bit of etymological work, whether I'm writing in the Realms or developing a novel's setting from scratch. By this I mean I try to ferret out some sense of the most common sounds, syllables, and letter prevalences in the language. For the Scions of Arrabar trilogy, for example, I adapted a rather italian sound to a lot (not all) of the surnames of the region (partially because I envisioned the place as being a lot like Renaissance Italy in flavor and culture). Elven words and names have a lot of "L"s, "Sh"s, and "A"s in them, and I tend to try to create elven words and names with that in mind. Sometimes it works very well, and others, I spit out a real dud. (Side Note: I believe Ed Greenwood actually has some documentation somewhere on the rules of language for the elven language, though I've never seen it.)
I hear great names in my head when I'm doing something else. I think that my mind must need to hear potential names in context with other language, rather than in a vaccuum, because a lot of ideas pop into my head while I'm driving and listening to the radio. I've learned to keep something handy to jot down ideas for names and words, because these flashes of inspiration always hit me at inopportune times, otherwise.
In the end, you want words that roll off the tongue. A name that is unpronouncable is not going to be realistic. Imagine a mother calling to her toddler with a garbled mess of syllables and sounds. It just doesn't work. Even in real-life society, many parents who give their children unusual names often truncate them or develop nicknames based off of them. (My youngest son, Quinton, is often referred to simply as "Q", Q-bert, Q-man, or Q-Tip [he's very blond right now] in my house.) An unpronouncable name in a book is going to be turned into something easier for the reader's internal voice to hear and say, and any flavor you as a writer might have hoped to create with such a name is sadly lost. Simpler really is better in a lot of ways. Historically speaking, early man's words were simple tones and combinations of tones, and names developed from that. Later words grew from those early tones. Make your syllables simple, combine them in pleasing ways, and you'll come up with a few winners eventually.
Thomas |
"A knight is not truly virtuous, only truly resolved to be so."
www.thomasmreid.com |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 07:59:35
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Good stuff Thomas, although it might be a bit easier if you reply more often!
Now, was all of that written in lieu of writing for the day, or was it written while surfing after you were done?
Another question for everyone. How do you choose your titles? Please use examples from your novels if you can. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 13:37:56
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Some of my chapter titles are assigned along with the project. Examples include Daughter of the Drow and Radiant Dragon. For others, the publisher asked for a list of suggestions, then picked one. These include Windwalker, Tangled Webs, Magehound, and Elfsong. Sometimes publishers ask for suggestions, then reject everything you suggest and pick their own. Examples include Dark Journey and City of Splendors: A Novel of Waterdeep. I've had publishers assign a title after I was well into a project; i.e., Shadows in the Darkness. Sometimes titles arise from variations on working titles that didn't quite, well, work. I'd suggested "Moonshadow" for the book that became Elfshadow, but apparently the folks at TSR walked around for a few days cursing my name for putting the tune of a Cat Stevens' song in their heads. The working title for Floodgate was "Watergate," which didn't sound right to me for some reason...
When I DO chose my titles, I attempt to create some sort of relationship to other books in the series. For example, the books in the Counselors & Kings trilogy are all compound word titles: The Magehound, The Floodgate, The Wizardwar.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 18 Jan 2005 21:42:03 |
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Thomas M. Reid
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
334 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 15:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
Good stuff Thomas, although it might be a bit easier if you reply more often!
Now, was all of that written in lieu of writing for the day, or was it written while surfing after you were done?
Did you notice how I saved all of that up for after I had turned over my most recent first draft?
quote:
Another question for everyone. How do you choose your titles? Please use examples from your novels if you can.
My answer pretty much mirrors Elaine's. Some titles were chosen for me. Gridrunner was one my editor suggested; I initially had it titled after the name of the main character, but in the end, that's an awful way to title an action novel. Insurrection, along with the other five titles of the WotSQ series, was named by committee during the summit to plan the books. Some I chose myself, such as for the Scions of Arrabar trilogy, and in that case, I had to come up with titles before I even knew for certain what the story was about. Like Elaine, I tried to go with something consistent (in this case, a gem color modifying an inanimate thing) so the books would feel connected. By picking those kinds of titles, I also left myself plenty of room to make them fit into whatever story I came up with without interfering with my creativity. Finally, some just sort of name themselves, like The Temple of Elemental Evil -- pretty self-explanatory there.
Thomas |
"A knight is not truly virtuous, only truly resolved to be so."
www.thomasmreid.com |
Edited by - Thomas M. Reid on 18 Jan 2005 15:54:28 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 16:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Which of course brings up the question: how did the original module designers (especially for ones like Cormanthyr, which I usually raid whenever I need the name for an elven PC or NPC) come up with so many of them? The non-Ed Greenwood designers, I mean. Hmm. Maybe I should wander over and ask Ed that ask well.
Thanks to everyone who's answered so far.
Cormanthyr was my baby, and I'll confess to using the syllabic guessing game that most others noted above to name people.
However, I followed Ed's lead and made sure there was some logic behind names and all that. When I was working on the elves, I took all the instances I could find of elven words, broke them down to a glossary of sorts to find elven keywords and concepts in their language, and then rebuilt and resorted those prefixes and suffixes adn the like into new names.
Another place where I follow Ed's lead (and the real world) is to repeat names of which I like the sound. Just as there are millions of Johns and Georges and Erics in the world, there ought to be just as many common names at least in local geographies etc. Thus, I try to re-use names that Ed and others came up with but change their honorifics, surnames, or place names to differentiate them. Thus, we make the Realms a tad more real in one respect and it's one more NPC named.
Steven
Who really believes that there are thousands of ELminsters, Khelbens, and Azouns out there but we don't mention them to avoid confusion...but there's no problem with 10,000 Arns, Duathas, or Furrads |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 17:43:07
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Many of my book titles originated with the editors, also.
When I can make up my own, I just try to go with something intriguing. My favorite self-generated title is probably The Black Bouquet, which, to me, poses an interesting paradox, since flowers aren't usually black. It's supposed to make the prospective book buyer wonder what the heck a black bouquet can actually be.
I believe it's often effective when the title is, in essence, a provocative image. I think The Shattered Mask works reasonably well on that level.
If I'm doing books in a trilogy or series, I like to carry over a pattern or motif from one title to the next. My Dark Kingdoms trilogy is an example of this. The books are The Ebon Mask, The Onyx Tower, and The Obsidian Blade. So the template is: The * Dark-colored precious or semiprecious substance * Artifact. |
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 00:01:39
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For the chapter length the same thing as everyone else suggested. I break at a cliff hanger, scene break or change of perspective or time frame. When I stat writing though I generally have an idea where I want to end it and won’t till I reach that spot.
As for how to start writing a chapter, it will vary with each writer and it tends to be one of the ways an author develops their style. For me I start with one or two paragraphs that lay out the scene. It is very descriptive and I do it to drag people right into the world. If it is a battle going on I describe the sounds, smells and any other sensations or senses that need to be triggered because I want the reader to be there not just reading words on a page. But that is the way I do it, for you might be different.
as for the interest I do it the same ay I write. I set a schedule to be online and to surf, answer emails and comments in my Elfwood gallery and I don’t break it. after I get done with my time online I then unplug it so even if I am tempted to just click on the button and surf I can’t.
as for book titles the same as everyone else. I choose a title that best reflects the book, sometimes they work other times they don’t the first book I am working on right now is titles “To Honor the Oath” and it is the best title that I can think of for it. the main story behind it is how far would you go to keep an oath you swore. Mix in a plot for revenge, hard choices and a tragic love that ends in an execution and you got the basic story behind the book. Oddly enough the story came about because someone so casually broke their word to me. I just wondered then why people break their words or oaths so easily and boom the whole plot of the book evolved from that.
Though I doubt that will be the title of the book once picked up, it just isn’t a catchy title. I am hoping either an editor or maybe a literary agent will think of a better title then I could.
As for others times they describe the basic story behind the book, a character or the personality of the character or it was as simple as the title just fit the story. A Child of Dusk describes the dual nature of the main character, hovering between life and death, light and dark, hope and despair. Another is First Axe of Scoran, and it is based around the first chosen of an evil goddess and the choices that led him to becoming the chosen. That plus the life he will have to lead being the highest ranking member of her church, being the mortal face of the goddess, and carrying out orders he reviles but chooses to do out of loyalty to her.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 06:18:03
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| All of this talk of writing is both illuminating and helpful, but I'd like to change direction for a moment or two. I was reading some of the comments on the "Best Middle Novel" thread and started wondering: how often (barring things like writing novels together) do all of you FR writers converse with each other? Are there things like yearly author moots, or do people tend to go their own way? (and sorry if I'm prying) |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 13:43:28
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There's no organized club, secret handshake, or arranged meetings, but I keep in touch with a number of FR writers. Some I talk to at least once a month, some I run into once a year or so, and some I've never met, spoken with, or emailed.
GenCon is usually a good place to meet new people and hang out with old friends, but I'm not sure how long that will continue to be a viable option. For one thing, there's two of them now, which splits up the guestlist a tad. Also, there seems to be less and less emphasis on books. Last year was a new low. There were very few books available for sale in the WotC booth--a few of the newer releases, no backlist. Thanks to a mailing snafu, the new Margaret Weis hardcover didn't make it to the con. (She sat gamely through two scheduled book signings nontheless.) And get this: there were NO BOOKSELLERS among the vendors. WotC scheduled very few book-related seminars or events, and for the most part, signings were scheduled only for those writers who had something new out. It's still a great con, but if there's nothing for writers to do, fewer writers will show up. Con attendance doesn't come cheap, and it's getting increasingly difficult to justify it as a legitimate promotional expense. This makes it more difficult for writers to hang out.
Continuing in that vein, I'd be interested to know who's planning to attend GenCon Indie this summer. I'll probably be there, since the Waterdeep book is a GenCon release. Anyone else?
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Kameron M. Franklin
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 16:43:32
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| No official plans yet, but with Maiden coming out in June, I am keeping the calendar open and would like to attend at least GenCon LA (the closer of the two for me). |
"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." --Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 18:01:24
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I expect to be at GenCon Indy.
I know what you mean about last year's event, Elaine. Besides the relative scarcity of books in the WotC dealer area, I was disappointed by the cancelation of the Thursday night Forgotten Realms reception, which was always a good place to talk to readers and one's fellow writers. Hope things are better this year.
If not, there's still the poker tournament!
With regard to how often we novelists communicate, my experience is like Elaine's. Some people I hear from with some regularity, some I see once a year, and some I've never had any contact with. |
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