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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jan 2005 : 09:27:33
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You know, it just feels good to read Ed’s words on Waterdeep, as they mirror mine own Waterdhavian NPC’s encouraging the player characters in my campaign to unburden themselves of extra coin by investing it in property throughout the city.
A sign I’m going about things correctly, that.
So thankee to Ed and THO again, as well as ShayneT for posing the question.
And now, a question of my own: Is there any truth to the rumor (well, wild DM speculation) that the reason the boulders and other rocks that liter the Stonelands came to be where they lay is because of a massive conflagration that occurred millennia ago, where magics brought to the fore by opposing forces of Giants and Dragons battling for control over a portion of mountains that once connected the Storm Horns and Thunder Peaks literally ripped those lands apart, inadvertently showering its remains onto the heads of the goblin armies whelmed by the Dragons, yet leaving space enough for the surviving armies to pass through and overrun the forested paradise so long enjoyed exclusively by the Giants and their kin?
I’ve hinted as much to my players through the mouth of Mellomir of Arabel (who firmly believes such is true). But I thought it best to see if there were some other reason for the nature of the place.
Thank you!
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2005 : 01:14:39
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Hello, all. Housekeeping time! Herewith, some very brief answers to divers scribes:
To Octa, Ed saith: kuje31 has directed you to my earlier Realmslore reply about the Moonshaes. As for the age of Toril and the Illuskan origins and migrations: mortals in the Realms today just can’t be sure. LOST EMPIRES OF FAERUN should furnish you with something on these topics very soon now, but as with the gods: some things ARE largely lost in the mists of time.
To kuje31: “Can Ed supply some wedding rituals for Sharess and Lliira?” I, THO, as someone whose character has attended a wedding performed by priestesses of Sharess must make reply: not in a FAMILY forum. Ahem.
Seriously, I passed this on to Ed and he e-chuckled and said he’d add it to the ‘tackle WotC about the priesthoods lore’ list, and get back to you when he had something meaningful to say on the subject.
To Faraer: you’re correct in your comment about Flamsterd. In FA1 Ed was directed to “update the Moonshaes to 2nd Edition” (incorporating what Doug Niles had done) and Ed suggested he make it more a campaign base than wholly devote the pages to an adventure, a suggestion that was accepted, so although all of Ed’s writing in FA1 is original, it wasn’t his original conception of the Moonshaes but crafted at the time of writing FA1.
Regarding your second question (“Ed, are spell levels and spell-casting character levels in-Realms facts, or are they abstractions of a non-stepped magical reality?”), Ed saith:
Faraer, to me they’re abstractions, but when writing I find I must often treat them as in-Realms elements just to ‘get along’ with others who do. However, I will never write Realms fiction that has someone referring to a spell level or a character level; if you ever read such with my byline on it, rest assured some editor has been at work! For one thing, it makes for terrible roleplaying, in the same way that players at GenCon tournaments playing 1st Edition D&D would try to figure out the level of NPC wizard foes by checking how many magic missile bolts their magic missile spells hurled, how many dice of damage their lightning bolts or fireballs did, and so on: shatters suspension-of-disbelief shared ‘realism’ completely.
I recall as a DM running a TSR event under fairly strict guidelines at a long-ago GenCon (i.e. I was supposed to stick to game rules and a company ‘style’ of the time) sitting listening to a party of players “quarterback huddle” and discuss for five minutes a co-ordinated PC attack for the next round, but then howl at my “unfairness” when I as DM conflabbed with other TSR employees as to how the orc warband they’d been trying to ambush would attack them during that same round. “The monsters can’t do that! I mean, we’re attacking them - - they don’t have time to stop and plan tactics!” / “Ah, but YOU all did.” / “That’s different: we’re the heroes! Don’t you get it? And we’re higher level, too, expert with our weapons: we can do things that brutish monsters can’t!” / “Oh, so the orc ISN’T an expert with the tusks and fists he was born with?” . . . and so on. :}
Hoondatha, Garen Thal has ably answered your War Wizards question. As he said, before Vangey firmly took control over them (yes, in some cases destroying mages with his spells, and in others defeating them soundly in magical duels), the War Wizards had devolved into small independent gangs of mages, some of them quite haughty and/or corrupt, ‘doing their own thing’ ostensibly for the good of the Realm, but often for quite self-serving reasons.
Imagine if every guy who could find a gun, in a modern real-world country where the government has broken down, could also get a police uniform and stride around claiming to be a policeman and having the authority of the state to do exactly as he pleased. Some of them would get killed pretty quickly, and most of them would both make a lot of enemies AND become corrupt pretty quickly, too. Those were the War Wizards of the day, and some few elders of them are still serving the realm today. THAT was the vigilante background they were coming from - - and that Vangey had personally wrenched them out of - - which coloured my postings to Jerryd (who of course didn’t have this full picture of the War Wizards, and was trying to get it).
So saith Ed. Who is as horribly busy as usual crafting Realmslore, Realmslore, and more Realmslore for you all!
love,
THO
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2005 : 01:47:38
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Sigh,
Okies. Well he could have PM'd it to me or emailed it. :( If I didn't "need" it I wouldn't have asked. :( |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 29 Jan 2005 06:01:47 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2005 : 05:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Sigh, Okies. Well he could have PM'd it to me or emailed it. :(
Wouldn't be very nice to those of us that would like to know too. :)
Wizards did 2 "Mature" books. They should let Ed do a "Mature" book for the Realms.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 29 Jan 2005 05:52:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2005 : 11:21:53
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Wizards did 2 "Mature" books. They should let Ed do a "Mature" book for the Realms.
Volo's Guide to Festhalls!   |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2005 : 13:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Wizards did 2 "Mature" books. They should let Ed do a "Mature" book for the Realms.
Volo's Guide to Festhalls!
Jocularity aside for the moment, this would make a particularly fascinating tome, if the content was kept to a certain standard. Characterising and detailing the "night life" in the Realms would be an interesting read...
Imagine what the nobles in Waterdeep get up to on a Saturday night...  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Jan 2005 13:19:16 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2005 : 15:08:56
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Sage, I couldn’t agree more.
And no, I’m not winking or grinning when I type that: just as you say, a straightforward examination of nightlife across the Realms. Okay, the Heartlands so it’ll fit in one book.
Now, as for your last sentence about nobles in Waterdeep: don’t worry, Ed and Elaine will be giving you some lovingly-described examples of that in the forthcoming novel. That doesn’t, however, do away with the pressing need for a game book that gives us:
The customs of drinking and courtship and hiring companionship, some prices for same, party games, gambling games (with full rules for all games, of course), attire and adornment and the signals they send, hand-gestures and drawn code sigils used in flirtation and in telling tourists where certain entertainments can be had, illicit and legit ‘side-business’ done by festhalls, some NPC contacts, a sampling of dances and bawdy ballads and ‘typical’ stage shows or one-on-one public performances (the equivalent of lap dances and stripteases and ‘personal’ comedy routines, but done for the wider audience; I’m not just talking sex acts here), the attitudes of various churches to participation in, or sanctioning or even sponsorship of, such activities . . . yes, I could seriously see a darned useful 200-page-plus “old format” Volo tome here, or even a standard ‘slim’ hardcover (format of the forthcoming Waterdeep game tome, perhaps?).
Ed is a master of hinting and sly allusion, so he could keep it useful AND adhere to any standards of decency WotC demanded.
I’d buy it, and I think a LOT of gamers would, too. Why don’t you suggest it to WotC Customer Service? Whenever Ed suggests anything, it gets the “oh, sure, well of COURSE you want us to do something like that, because you just want to write it; thanks for the suggestion, but don’t call us, we’ll call you” treatment.
So, Sage, I implore you . . . I’m sitting here at this festhall table watching the urchins sweep up the empty hall, and feeling so LONELY.
love,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 29 Jan 2005 15:15:20 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2005 : 16:23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Imagine what the nobles in Waterdeep get up to on a Saturday night... .
Or the nobles in Cormyr... |
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2005 : 19:47:48
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Hi Ed (and THO),
I've just started reading The Temptation of Elminster (the last of the El books i've not read) and i'm already very confused. In it El has just woken up in the Year of the Missing Blade, listed in the copy of the roll of years i've got as 759, also claiming he's been stuck there for a century. However how is this possible as Elminster was there at the founding of the Harpers in the Year of the Dawn Rose (720)? Code of the Harpers definitely states the old rascal was there, so am i wrong in my dating of the year of the Missing Blade or is El just generalising when he says he's been there for a century?
Thanks,
GH |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 01:13:05
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Hello, all.
Lauzoril, Ed says thanks and please keep him posted. One of these days, if he ever has the time and WotC says yes (insert double bursts of maniacally disbelieving laughter here), he’d love to expand that book into four full-length novels (one dealing with El’s time in each character class). Myself, I’d rather see him spend the time crafting new works (particularly if the four books would end up getting edited in the same disastrous manner as the Spellfire rewrite did).
oldskool, there’s VERY little information about the “Blank Continents” of Toril. Ed’s never drawn any of them; what saw “print” in the Interactive Atlas was someone else’s conception, and Ed and we Knights are unanimous in thinking it resembles our real world FAR too closely. Anchorome should be an archipelago of tiny islands leading to a small C-shaped continent (‘open end’ facing Toril). Originally, before the 1986 negotiations with TSR, one of the players, Victor Selby, was going to detail one continent himself, but never got around to it.
I can tell you this much: Ed never wanted a Mayan-Aztec-’New World’ continent or flavour anywhere in the Realms, viewing it (I believe correctly) as a huge stylistic as well as commerical mistake even before he saw the published result, just as he never wanted the Hordelands to so closely resemble real-world Mongols, or see “the Dalai Lama” inserted into the Realms, and so on.I can also say Ed envisaged prosperous trading realms and city-states with their own stable, developed cultures.
Ed doesn’t want to give you any direct answer himself because he doesn’t want to influence potential WotC plans in any way. I emphasize the word “potential” here, because as far as Ed knows, right now, there aren’t any plans “in the works to expand on these blank places (or perhaps even just revisit in third edition the lands of Maztica, Kara-Tur, or Zakhara).”
There. Another query dealt with. Think I’ll go find a Knight and engage in a little hand-to-hand combat (or should that be hand-to-gland?). A girl gets to feeling lonely every few hours or so . . .
love to all,
THO
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 02:40:36
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oldskool, to solve the blank space problem in our campaign, the DM transplanted D20 worlds onto Faerun.
It worked out quite nicely I must say.
In our campaign, the continent east of Kara-Tur is Ghelspad (from Sword & Sorcery.)
The continent west of Faerun was reduced Kalamar (from Wizard of the Coast's Kingdoms of Kalamar.)
The continent south of that is basically Epic Level Handbook stuff.
You could replace those with any number of things. Monte Cooke's campaign setting. Everquest. Warcraft. There are so many D20 licensed products as well as original settings that you don't need to wait for Wizards. Heck, the continent east of Kara-Tur is so remote you could replace it with Eberron. :)
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 30 Jan 2005 02:45:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 03:37:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Think I’ll go find a Knight and engage in a little hand-to-hand combat (or should that be hand-to-gland?). A girl gets to feeling lonely every few hours or so . . .
love to all,
THO
Would a hamster do, instead of a Knight? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 03:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Sage, I couldn’t agree more.
And no, I’m not winking or grinning when I type that: just as you say, a straightforward examination of nightlife across the Realms. Okay, the Heartlands so it’ll fit in one book.
After leaving Candlekeep last night, I began to realise just how interesting (moreso than I realised earlier when I first mentioned it) such a tome would be.
You're right though, about only examining certain regional areas instead of the whole wide Realms. There's a lot to discuss, I would imagine.
For me though, I'd rather read about the cities on the Sword Coast first. The Heartlands would likely be a more somber environment when it comes to such concepts -- somber that is, when compared to the wildways of the Sword Coast cities... .
quote:
Now, as for your last sentence about nobles in Waterdeep: don’t worry, Ed and Elaine will be giving you some lovingly-described examples of that in the forthcoming novel.
I'm now looking forward to this novel even more than I was before...if such a thing were truly possible  .
quote:
That doesn’t, however, do away with the pressing need for a game book that gives us:
The customs of drinking and courtship and hiring companionship, some prices for same, party games, gambling games (with full rules for all games, of course), attire and adornment and the signals they send, hand-gestures and drawn code sigils used in flirtation and in telling tourists where certain entertainments can be had, illicit and legit ‘side-business’ done by festhalls, some NPC contacts, a sampling of dances and bawdy ballads and ‘typical’ stage shows or one-on-one public performances (the equivalent of lap dances and stripteases and ‘personal’ comedy routines, but done for the wider audience; I’m not just talking sex acts here), the attitudes of various churches to participation in, or sanctioning or even sponsorship of, such activities . . . yes, I could seriously see a darned useful 200-page-plus “old format” Volo tome here, or even a standard ‘slim’ hardcover (format of the forthcoming Waterdeep game tome, perhaps?).
Ed is a master of hinting and sly allusion, so he could keep it useful AND adhere to any standards of decency WotC demanded.
I’d buy it, and I think a LOT of gamers would, too. Why don’t you suggest it to WotC Customer Service? Whenever Ed suggests anything, it gets the “oh, sure, well of COURSE you want us to do something like that, because you just want to write it; thanks for the suggestion, but don’t call us, we’ll call you” treatment.
So, Sage, I implore you . . . I’m sitting here at this festhall table watching the urchins sweep up the empty hall, and feeling so LONELY.
Agreed. Consider it done... Perhaps I should start a petition as well...  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 03:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Imagine what the nobles in Waterdeep get up to on a Saturday night... .
Or the nobles in Cormyr...
That would definitely be something to read about  . Although, I'm thinking that I'd rather read about the "night life" in earlier days of the Forest Kingdom. The current period seems less inclined towards merriment, given recent events.
quote:
In our campaign, the continent east of Kara-Tur is Ghelspad (from Sword & Sorcery.)
Perhaps you should open another scroll here at Candlekeep and discuss this aspect more in detail, Sir Urza. I'm particularly interested in this, as I have only a passing familiarity with the Scarred Lands.
How did you go about it? What elements did you use? What about the fact that the land formerly known as Scarn has only a pantheon of 8 gods? What about the Titans? What colour is the sky? Does this dress make me look fat? What of donuts... What!?
Sorry, I got a little carried away there toward the end...  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 03:57:32
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Hello, all!
I being unexpectedly swift responses from Ed of the Greenwood, to Gerath Hoan and kuje31, to whit:
Gerath Hoan, congratulations! You have stumbled onto one of the Great Untold Tales of the Realms, and are herewith made a Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye!
Your observations about dates are entirely correct. Elminster had NOT been hanging in that trap for a century, but only for about thirty years. However, at the time of his ‘awakening’ (when he’s freed from the trap), he THINKS he’s been there for a century, because he’s temporarily but entirely forgotten everything that has happened recently, and confused the trap he was caught in with an earlier Netherese tomb exploration that WAS about a century earlier.
I don’t want to spoil your read, and don’t know how far along you are by now, but I’ll say this much: Elminster’s mind is still ‘mazed’ by the trap-magic, and that has something to do with the silence of Mystra: he’s still ‘invisible’ to her and to the Weave. So in the scenes you’re reading El’s forgotten all about the founding of the Harpers. His state of mind changes rapidly as the book goes on, okay?
In other words, he remembers fast, particularly after page 27 (original WotC hardcover: it’s page 33 in the paperback, and I don’t know what page it is in the Science Fiction Book Club hardcover, though it most probably mirrors the original WotC hardcover pagination).
Diligent readers of my Realms fiction will notice that Elminster, Khelben, and all of the other “non-blood-of-Mystra” Chosen (in other words, all of them except the Seven Sisters) suffer much mental damage and deterioration in Mystra’ service, over the passing years, especially right after incidents in which they ‘lose’ (bleed) silver fire. It’s no accident that TSR designers have always referred to Elminster as an “unreliable narrator.”
All of this should have been made more clear, but disappeared in the editing (the editors weren't being nasty; I wrote too long a book).
kuje, the Lovely Lady Hooded conveyed your distress to me, and in fact begged on bended knee (electronically rather than in person, but she DID make promises for when we’re next flesh-to-flesh, so to speak :}) that I give you at least something to go on in the way of wedding rituals for Sharess and Lliira (no, you don’t owe her; she loves doing that sort of thing, and the rest of us all love it when she does). So here we go, in VERY rough and skeletal form, from my private notes:
Sharess, as you might expect, doesn’t mind WHO gets married (in other words, beings of the same gender, beings of different races, beings already married to others, beings very closely blood-related to each other - - all sorts of unions are okay, as well as the more traditional ‘male and female of the same race’ pairings). All that Sharess insists is that love and passion (demonstrated physically, through lovemaking) exist within the union, and that both partners of the union be ‘unjealous’ enough that both partners in the union will be free to flirt (includes at least kissing and caressing) with other beings not part of the union.
The actual ritual is as follows:
Only two beings can be wed at a time (although both can engage in later rituals, immediately after a wedding is concluded, if they desire to end up in a marriage bond of more than two individuals).
Clergy of Sharess prepare each partner, in private, for the ceremony, bathing them, anointing them with oils, applying cosmetics to them, and even (if they desire and pay for such) augmenting their natural appearance with minor illusions. As the being about to be wed is being prepared, skilled clergy talk to them of their love for the being they are about to marry, encouraging them to describe the charms and graces of their partner-to-be, and bring them to a state of excitement.
The beings about to be wed are clad only in open mesh cloaks (scraps of fishing nets are often used), and led out of doors (regardless of the weather, climate, or terrain, the wedding itself must be performed outdoors, usually in a temple garden) in some place where a feast can be held and the two partners can be led towards each other in a procession.
Each partner-to-be (who are called “the Offered” by the clergy of Sharess) cradles a trained temple cat in their arms, and they walk with clergy of Sharess (almost always priestesses) who sing and chant soft, low-voiced songs to the goddess.
At the ‘right’ time, while still out of sight of each other, the priestesses simultaneously command the partner they’re with to kiss the cat passionately, and then let go of it.
The cats usually kiss and lick the partner, and may or may not scratch them (this is to be borne stoically if they do), and then ‘climbs down’ the net-like garment, and runs off through the garden in search of the other partner-to-be. The trained cats typically run straight to where the other partner-to-be is, climb up their net-like garment, and deliver the kiss from their fellow Offered (again, licks and scratches must be accepted along with it). [There have been cases where cats have been prevented from completing this ritual, or even killed my mischance; the clergy who walk with the Offered are ready to spell-transform themselves into cat form and ‘step in’ to perform this vital part of the ritual, if necessary.]
The moment both Offered have received the kiss, a spell cast by the presiding priestess takes effect, and the partners-to-be are momentarily mind-bonded, able to see through each other’s eyes. (This ‘seeing and feeling’ some small part of the mind of the other sometimes causes them to fall right out of love with each other in a hurry.)
By means of this seeing, they can usually swiftly find each other (despite the ‘weird’ feeling of seeing through the other’s eyes), and (through love and rising passion, aided by Sharessan spells) rush together, to consummate the wedding on the spot. Yes, that means the happy couple physically engage in lovemaking, side by side with their two messenger-cats, and all of the attending Sharessan clergy (plus any guests). The temple has previously prepared a feast of mead, light wines, and what we would call ‘finger food,’ and hedonistic lovemaking continues for some time. The favoured time for a Sharessan wedding is just before dusk, so the orgy can continue throughout the night. If it’s winter or storming (NOT viewed as a bad omen, by the way), the initial consummation is ‘on the spot’ and usually outdoors, sometimes in a bower heated by a ring of small fires, but the ongoing frolic moves indoors.
During the fun, Sharessan clergy will insist that each Offered publicly disclose one of their personal faults to the other (“I snore loudly” or “My feet smell” or “I can’t resist skirt-chasing every dark-haired Calishite I see”). This must be honest, though it can be frivolous, and the clergy forewarn and even coach the partners-to-be, beforehand (i.e. the request to disclose doesn’t come as a surprise). All previous weddings and child-bearing unions (no matter how unofficial or illegal) either Offered has previously been involved in MUST be disclosed to the clergy and the other Offered, or the ritual ends right there.
The ritual isn’t actually complete until the orgy ends and both of the Offered have slept (usually together, and if not, always in the physical company of Sharessan clergy) and awakened again - - at which time both are solemnly (and seperately) asked (by Sharessan clergy) if they desire to be united to the being they Offered themselves to, and whose Offer they in turn enjoyed. In other words, they are given a last chance to back out. Sharessan clergy freely offer private counsel (advice for wedded life ahead, or how to deal with specific flaws or tendencies of the partner chosen) at this time, and will even , if one Offered desires it, bring the two Offered together to continue counselling with both, face to face. If both Offered accept the other, they are henceforth known as Accepted, their names are entered in temple rolls, and they are magically translocated (by teleport spells, usually, though portals can be used) to a place of their mutual choice, if they want to go somewhere (Yes, a honeymoon! Or an escape from smothering parents, creditors, or even the authorities!), and the clergy keep the chosen destination secret from everyone for at least a year (longer unless family of the Accepted plead for disclosure because they fear something bad has befallen the Accepted).
It’s customary for either the partners-to-be or their families to make donations to the hosting temple or shrine of Sharess (to cover the cost of the wedding feast), and in some cities priestesses quietly offer drugged wines (usually to induce wild passion) for those who pay extra (in other words, the father of the bride might try to stir the ardour of his long-uninterested wife by discreetly arranging with the clergy to ‘add a little something’ to her wine or to everyone’s).
Lliiran weddings, it won’t surprise you to learn, are dancing affairs. Like the clergy of Sharess, the church of Lliira will join together beings of all races, genders, and blood relationships, but NOT if any of the parents of either Joyous (as the bride and groom to be are both called) objects, and not if either Joyous is already married to another, still-living being.
The ritual unfolds thus: in a secluded bower or walled garden or inside a temple to Lliira (these three venues listed in descending order of desirability), all wedding participants gather. Anything that is, purports to be, or could reasonably be used as a weapon must not be brought to the gathering (and Joybringers will whisk such items away by magic if they are present, detecting them by means of spells if hidden). Participants are encouraged to wear the wildest costumes they want to, and join in the dancing.
The music, musicians, and refreshments are as chosen by the wedding participants, and continue until the two Joyous want the actual wedding to take place (i.e. everyone they want to be there has arrived and everyone’s warmed up). Then the Lliiran clergy cast certain spells, and the Twelve Dances begin. Some of the spells enable all the people present to fly (within a very limited spherical field), others generate the soaring music of the Dances, and still others put the movements of each dance into the minds of the participants, so people who’ve never been to a Joyfasting (Lliiran wedding) before know the moves without thinking, FEELING the moves of the unfolding dances (note that this means the maimed, infirm, and non-dancers can enjoy being swept along in the dances, up into the air and moving freely along with everyone else). Most of the music of these dances is heard inside the heads of the participants (and in places of danger or hostility, can be rendered silent to all outsiders by choice of the presiding clergy), but the swelling tunes are stirring and uplifting, each dance of the Twelve arousing and emotionally moving everyone involved. Most dancers will sing wordlessly along to the rising tunes, and by the time the Twelfth dance ends on a peak of arousal and high notes, everyone is whirling swiftly, well aloft, around the feet of the two Joyous, who are swept together in consummation of their union above everyone’s heads, shedding their costumes as they go (it’s considered a mark of the favour to touch - - not keep - - any part of a costume as it falls, whirled around and around among the dancers by the magic rather than plummeting to the ground). Everyone but the Joyous then sinks gently to back to the ground, and the two Joyous make love high in the air, ‘kept up there’ by the Lliiran clergy.
The ritual ends with the presiding Joybringer asking the two Joyous if they’re content to be Fasted together (married), and Lliiran magic brings their replies to the ears of all participants - - whereupon the two Joyous vanish in a burst of spectacular fireworks (magical illusions rather than actual fireworks), and the Joybringers put on a music and light show (again, except in hostile or dangerous surroundings) to entertain the wedding guests whilst the two Joyous are whisked magically away to a previously-selected spot (usually a bedchamber far from all the revelry, but sometimes an escape to a secret destination far across the Realms).
It’s customary for the presiding Joybringers to gift a potion to each of the Joyous (usually one of Cat’s Grace and one of some sort of healing, but it can be anything not directly harmful or hostile to the imbiber). The potions will be labelled, not mysterious to the Joyous receiving them.
So saith Ed. Ah, but it’s nice to know I still have the power to persuade (purr). Enjoy, kuje, enjoy. You can thank me properly if ever our paths meet.
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 30 Jan 2005 04:06:51 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 05:37:43
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Bows to THO,
Thankee Lady! :) And thankee Ed! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 12:30:59
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Thanks Ed and THO... i'll see what happens in the rest of the book before jumping to any more conclusions!
GH |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2005 : 01:19:37
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Edited by - Lameth on 31 Jan 2005 10:49:16 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2005 : 04:27:24
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Lameth, with respect, Ed didn't create Menzoberranzan or the Baenres and Do'Urdens. They were created, as you would know already, by the novelist R A Salvatore. Hence, asking Ed the questions you have is like asking (to use a German sporting example) Beckenbauer how many steps Heiki Dreschler takes in her triple jump run-up. He might have an idea, but he probably would only be guessing or making it up as he sees fit. R A Salvatore has a thread in this forum (although he has never posted on it as far as I can recall) and also his own website. Your best bet is to ask there.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2005 : 05:33:48
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Hello, all. Ed of the Greenwood makes reply to Talwyn:
Oooh, a toughie. Some people do indeed see the paladin as a very narrow-focus lifestyle. In some cases, following the ‘character’ of the deity (if AND ONLY IF the deity’s church is portrayed as mirroring a strict, no-nonsense side of the deity), they’re correct.
However, I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with having a ‘courtly love’ romantic as a paladin, so long as the character doesn’t stray from the strict precepts of what the CHURCH of Torm orders him to do.
Of course, the hosts of the server hold a lot of power here, as I support your “diversity” point of view largely because rich roleplaying should be the heart and soul of any good D&D campaign, and your paladin should be praying to Torm personally a lot as well as participating in rituals with priests of Torm when they’re available - - and if the server hosts want to roleplay the visions and/or explicit directives Torm sends your paladin (in his dreams or directly during prayers), they can use (I’d say misuse, if they did, but then, I’m not running the server) this avenue to dictate to your paladin not to behave as he’s doing.
However, if this is the guy’s established character, then good roleplaying says that (rather then suddenly becoming an unromantic, non-singing, no-nonsense ‘their-idea-of-a-good-model paladin’) he renounces his holy service to Torm (ceases to be a paladin), and just serves Torm as a devout fighter - - or even, given that all non-priest, non-paladin characters in the Realms venerate an array of deities (even if only in appeasement), drift towards another deity (Sune, Milil, and so on) who look upon romantic chivalry more kindly.
So it’s really up to you, and to the hosts. If you were doing this in MY campaign, I’d be beaming: THIS is what good, colourful, memorable, enjoyable roleplaying is all about. In my home campaigns, I’ve had kindhearted thieves who couldn’t tell lies, irreverent priests who just couldn’t follow rules or chant a prayer without working a joke or smartass comment into it, sorceresses who were scared of casting magic - - and lots of other misfits who were trying to fulfill roles that they didn’t quite ‘fit’ (in the opinion of some observers). It all makes for more fun for everyone. It can also, of course, drive the DM nuts if every player wants his or her character to do it . . .
When Wizards finally gets around to posting my 2004 Spin A Yarn story (“The Night Tymora Sneezed”), you’ll get to see a paladin behaving in a rather unconventional - - but true to her faith - - fashion. Heh-heh.
So saith Ed. Good luck, Talwyn. Be sure to tell us what happens, okay?
love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 01:43:04
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Hello, all. Ed of the Greenwood replies to Gerath Hoan regarding the matter of Vangerdahast (and Ed hasn’t forgotten your Tunland request, either; it’s waiting for Ed to see what a certain other creative person does or doesn’t do in print, before he sets quill to parchment and lines up those little dancing electrons in a reply to you):
Hi, Gerath. Re. the Vangey stuff: you’re welcome. I just hope Jerryd receives it in the same spirit, because I’m very interested in seeing his War Wizards writeup (I’m not trying to prevent him doing it or crush the man or his obvious enjoyment of, and enthusiasm for, the Realms). You asked: “Could we possibly draw you out some more on what you feel about his replacement with Caladnei (and how and why that came about) and what his (obviously now rather special) future holds? Will we still see him popping up from time to time meddling or is he truly retired (and perhaps in stasis)?”
To answer your second question first: I’m not sure. I’d love to use Vangey in that ‘popping up meddling’ manner, but I honestly don’t know if I’ll have the opportunity.
Caladnei is the creation of Sean Reynolds, I believe, working with Rich Baker (I think), and I really like her. My guess is that she was put into the Realms to get rid of one of the three similar ‘grouchy, meddling old men’ wizards I mentioned in my Vangey replies to Jerryd. One of the design problems with the Realms (exacerbated with the disappearance of most longevity magics in 3rd Edition) is that the advancing timeline has brought a lot of my favourite ‘old guard’ Realms characters (Mirt, Durnan, Vangerdahast, Flamsterd, and many more: just examine the Old Gray Box character roster and you’ll see that there are a LOT of candidates) to the brink of death through old age without my having a chance to really tell their stories.
As you know, for me the Realms IS its characters, not real estate so much, so I’m reluctant to let these people go until they’ve had their moment in the spotlight and ‘become real’ for all Realms fans. Sometimes I have to be pushed. :}
In the case of Vangerdahast: it was time, for both him and for Azoun. I didn’t want either of them to go, and if a lot of Realms fans agree with me in this, then Troy and I did DEATH OF THE DRAGON right, because just as in real life, you don’t want your favourite people to die, or in some cases don’t want them gone until you’ve had a chance to say or do this with them, or they’ve had the chance to finish this or that.
However, a lot of the appeal of the Realms is anticipating what will happen next, treating the place as living, breathing, and real - - and that means change. Real change, not just the illusion of change (older comics fans are familiar with the clever illusion of change: in the Spidey comics, Peter Parker took almost twenty years to graduate), must from time to time occur.
Caladnei is an enigma, far more of a blank slate than Vangey. Vangey gave us the delicious “many secrets, what’s he really up to?” air of mystery, the whiff of corruption, the allure of the hidden (all these ‘ahast’ mages who control Cormyr: who are they, and what are their aims?), but Caladnei offers us the ‘green outsider, learning on the job as everyone tries to take advantage of her, and because of Vangey and Azoun IV not being there, changes ARE going to happen’ situation of all of us having ringside seats as Cormyr moves into a new era.
In ELMINSTER’S DAUGHTER I tried to usher in that new era without showing much of anything occurring in it, like the guy who introduces the show and then steps aside with a flourish as the curtain rises; in SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR (title may change: first Knights of Myth Drannor novel) I’ll take you back to Vangey firmly in the saddle and Azoun IV riding high, before any of the troubles that led to DEATH OF THE DRAGON.
If I’d been publishing the Realms all by myself, Azoun IV and Vangerdahast would still be in place and the timeline wouldn’t have advanced nearly as much as it has since 1987.
However, those changes have happened, so I throw myself into enjoying and working with them as much as I can. And I really will enjoy exploring Caladnei. What makes her tick? How does she get on (in a continuing, shifting relationship, not a one-time snapshot glimpse) with Alusair? With Filfaeril? With Laspeera? With Azoun V, as he grows up?
I have utterly no intent of making Caladnei any sort of clone or echo of any of the Seven Sisters, cheerfully comfortable with casual nudity and lovemaking after nigh a thousand years of life, but I do need to know how she deals with loneliness (and whether or not she yearns for companionship as Princess Tanalasta did, and so can be exploited by someone who sees this).
I want to watch all the nobles try to take advantage of her - - NOT because they’re all traitors, but just because they feared and hated Vangey so much because he stepped on so many toes, and they want their pride and power back and she’s not Vangey so they’re going to try to take it.
We’ve not yet properly explored either the Royal Court or the nobles of Cormyr in fiction (and, from all my postings with Jerryd here, obviously haven’t dealt with the War Wizards properly yet, either), and it’s high time for a game product update for the Forest Kingdom, too.
So I feel great about Caladnei, and I do want to provide you with more of an answer - - in Realms fiction - - to your question about Vangey’s status. Stay tuned!
So saith Ed. Ah, I’m wriggling in anticipation, just reading this! (Yes, Wooly and Sirius, you can watch.) Stay tuned, indeed!
love to all,
THO
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 03:13:13
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It has been said years ago, that Lolth had male Clerics and Eilistraee did not. Then a great change come forth and the Sipder Queen, may the light take her, no longer had any male Clerics. This though leads to a question, does now The Dark Maiden welcome males to her clergy now? I have seen many advocates of this point of view, a few even argue that she might even have Paladins (as at least one other Godess of Chaotic Good nature has them).
I have been always confused about the notion of growing hair long, as such can be an inpedence to combat as is fighting unarmored. Perhaps this could be explained as well? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 03:31:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
it’s high time for a game product update for the Forest Kingdom, too...
So saith Ed. Ah, I’m wriggling in anticipation, just reading this! (Yes, Wooly and Sirius, you can watch.)
Wiggle all you want if that is even the slightest hint that WOTC might agree with EG and Cormyr will soon be covered with an updated gaming product. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 04:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
it’s high time for a game product update for the Forest Kingdom, too...
So saith Ed. Ah, I’m wriggling in anticipation, just reading this! (Yes, Wooly and Sirius, you can watch.)
Wiggle all you want if that is even the slightest hint that WOTC might agree with EG and Cormyr will soon be covered with an updated gaming product.
As much as I'd like to see a new Cormyr product, I'm also happy just to watch the Lady Hooded One as she wriggles. Perhaps I could lend a hand... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 09:39:53
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Thanks for the reply Ed.
I know many of us are genuinely excited by the prospect of a Cormyr game product with updated info on the new rulers and important figures, and of course more depth for the Forest Kingdom. Exploring something of life in the Royal Court would make (IMO) a great piece of fiction. Court intrigue and the whole nation's bureaucracy would give lots of character to Cormyr.
I'm also somewhat sad at the potential passing of more old guard Realms characters. I have to say that i always liked the longevity of certain figures, they seemed to maintain something about the Realms and the character of the setting just by being around. It would be a shame to lose a Mirt or anyone else so important (I already miss the old Manshoon, at the head of 'his' Zhentarim). I can be excited for the future however, if all the new characters which rise up can have the potential which is shown in Caladnei and several others like her.
Thanks again Ed and THO. I like forward to all your forthcoming answers, and i mean that for everyone's questions, not merely my own.
GH
P.S. What was that specific Tunland request? The old gray matter must be going because i can't remember what requests for Realmslore i've got 'pending'. |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
Edited by - Gerath Hoan on 01 Feb 2005 09:43:34 |
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Verghityax
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 13:08:33
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Dear Ed of Greenwood,
Currently I'm gathering info to write an article about another big city in the Western Heartlands. Since it is not Baldur's Gate, I hope there are not too many NDA's. And the city I'm speaking of is Elturel. The major problem is that the map that has been printed in 2nd ed. accessory - "Adventures" - has got only 5 locations marked, while they are so many more described. What I need is to know, where exactly should the following locations be marked:
1. Helm's Shieldhall
2. The High Harvest Home
3. Hondakar's House
4. Symbril's House
5. Phontyr's Unicorn
6. Gallowglar's Inn
7. The Oar and Wagonwheel Inn
8. A Pair of Black Antlers
9. The Bent Helm
10. Home of Baranta Chansil
11. Home of Orsar "Greencloak"
12. The High Moor Heroes' Guild
13. Ilmater's shrine
14. Tempus' shrine
15. Tymora's shrine
16. Waukeen's shrine
This request is very important to me, since without the needed information there is barely any chance of making a good map and description of Elturel. I thank thee in advance for any help. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 15:00:47
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Dear Verghityax,
Elturel was always “the Great Mystery” to we Knights, and we used to tease Ed about it. It was originally going to be used in the DC Comics set in the Realms, and in some of the earliest computer games (and, as we all know, wasn’t), but was the subject of the very first “don’t talk about this at all, Ed, okay?” TSR directive, way back when.
So replying to you may take Ed some time. He has to track down the ex-employees of TSR who gave him that directive, ascertain PRECISELY the extent and nature of the prohibition, and then take it to Wizards and ask the current ‘keepers of the keys’ there if it’s okay for him to proceed.
So, be aware that this may take months.
Gerath, back in May you asked Ed for more on Tunland than just the Thaalim Torchtower note in the FRCS. Later (in November, I think), Beowulf chimed in with requests for more. Ed is in a similar situation with Tunland as he is with Elturel, only the “don’t go there” request was so someone, quite long ago, could use it as a novel setting (something else that hasn’t happened). So this answer, too, may take some time. Less time than Verghityax’s, because there aren’t as many hoops to jump through in finding out, and because it’s a far older request than Elturel and so takes precedence.
Yours in the spirit of endlessly revelatory Realmslore,
love to all,
THO
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 18:05:14
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Ah thank you THO! May... wow, that was some time ago and you must be keeping excellent track of all those Realmslore requests.
GH... AKA one happy gamer. |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 18:10:02
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A question regarding the meddling mages of Faerûn:
As you mentioned when discussing the departure of Vangerdahast, the three "meddling old mages" of the Realms were, in descending order, Elminster, Khelben, and Vangerdahast--with Taern Hornblade coming in at a distant fourth, in my opinion. With the assignment of Vangerdahast to other tasks, and the ascension of Taern to the rulership of Silverymoon, who now is Meddling Mage Number Three? Surely the departure of the Old Snoop doesn't mean that wizards no longer meddle in the affairs of rulers and adventurers... |
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Jerryd
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2005 : 22:00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ed via THO
Re. the Vangey stuff: you’re welcome. I just hope Jerryd receives it in the same spirit, because I’m very interested in seeing his War Wizards writeup (I’m not trying to prevent him doing it or crush the man or his obvious enjoyment of, and enthusiasm for, the Realms).
I receive it in the spirit of (1) gratitude that you're willing to devote the time to me, and (2) spirited yet friendly debate!  While I do argue passionately for my ideas and I'm sure that gets through in my written words, there is certainly no acrimony or ill will present. I am still devoted to completing my writeup, although after missing two expected completion dates I'm now loathe to give a third other than "as soon as other real-life responsibilities allow."
My reply to your last series of posts on the subject is forthcoming as well, in a much shorter timeframe than the writeup itself - I'm shooting for later tonight, or tomorrow evening at the lastest! |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2005)
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