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Si
Acolyte
United Kingdom
18 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2005 : 20:23:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ed of the Greenwood, through the always remarkable skill of the Lady Hooded One, already revealed some significant details on the ranking and insignia of the City Watch in Waterdeep back in November 2004. Here's the original post, for easy reference -
<snipped for brevity>
many thanks for the answer, now I can only hope that EG has time to reveal something about their insignia.
cheers |
'Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; The creatures of power slide out from under with a wink and a grin.'
Quellcrist Falconer
Things I Should Have Learnt by Now |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 00:48:41
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Heya,
Warning: small spoilers for the Return of the Archwizards trilogy.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilKnight
I've been reading up on Cormyr of late and remember that Vangerdahast has kept an eye on Caladnei for quite awhile. She moved into Cormyr and showed her power doing something on her own in protection of Cormyr. She was offered a position with the War Wizards but turned it down because of her dislake of the intrigue and all. That just made Vangy even more interested in her.
He eventually offered her his job after Alusair was made regent. Why she humbly accepted, I do not know. I believe I am remembering reading about it in the FRCS (under Cormyr heading).
Yep, thanks.  I knew all of that stuff (have relevant pages "bookmarked") - but I find it rather difficult to believe that Vangerdahast would have just sprung her on them... And even if he did (which I suppose is possible), he must have had something to do with her for a while. He'd have to be confident that she was capable of the task (even if she, herself, seems to have some difficulty in believing it (the scene at end of WSCSaT)), so he'd have to have some idea of her abilities, if not specifically groomed her to take over.
So Caladnei's story must start some time prior to the Return of the Archwizards series (in which Vangerdahast is still Mage Royal, and remains so for the duration - he was not in a fit state to name anyone his successor at the end, but I presume he got better), and probably also prior to the "current date" in the FRCS. I mean, if Caladnei was NOT a war wizard, what was she doing with the Comryian forces in Anauroch (not in command though, there was a war wizard there she was defering to)? And why was she there at the end, helping Alusair with an addled Vangerdahast? How did she get that much trust from the Crown? She must have been his "apprentice", or equivelant. She refused a comission in the war wizards, why didn't she refuse the appointment to Mage Royal? There really is a lot more going on than we know, I'm sure.
Mind you, still not having Elminster's Daughter doesn't help me, since I understand there's a bit of background information in there as well. (I should have it soon though! yay!) |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 00:53:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
A question for Ed
When the Great Glacier melted (to uncover Damara) where did all the water go?
Presumably it would have all ended up in the Sea of Fallen stars...but why wasnt there any flooding in the nations around the sea as the Water level rose? (Given how Marsembers layed out I would think it would have suffered quite badly from the rising sea level)
The Underdark. See the first chapter (I think) of Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark ... in the section on ixzan IIRC.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 03:42:10
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Hello, fellow scribes. Baleful Avatar asked: “THO, is there anything you can tell us (yet) about the Knights trilogy? Has Ed let slip anything about the plot or chronology of the first book? Specific characters? Places? Chapter-length excerpts? (Such as, ahem, the sex scenes the WotC editors are going to edit out anyway?)”
And here’s what Ed will let me reveal of what he told me about the trilogy:
It’s simply impossible to put down any sort of ‘record’ of our actual Realmsplay sessions in fiction form. The result would be volumes (probably a hundred or so, just to cover the gaining of the charter to Mourngrym becoming Lord of Shadowdale) of unending, interwoven subplots. Great for a soap opera, death for a fantasy novel: there’s NO WAY a WotC editor (or any editor in the field, except perhaps those who handle series by guys named Jordan, Goodkind, or Martin!) would accept books with such huge casts and unresolved stories.
Therefore, I’ve had to narrow the focus down. Even the core roster of the Knights is too large for a comfortable character-focused WotC-style Realms book, so to have room to tell even ‘half a tale’ I’m going to have to keep things simple, chronological, and tightly focused on the Knights, and craft a new tale. The first book starts in Cormyr, as the Knights gained their charter. We’re back in the Year of the Spur, watching as a young ranger named Florin reaches out to snatch his first chance at a real adventure. Be careful what you ask for, as they say . . . :}
It would be a fairly safe guess to say that Vangerdahast, Azoun IV, and some Zhentarim will be involved in this first book (working title, still unofficial: SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR). I can confirm that you’ll see some glimpses of Espar and of the Royal Court of Cormyr. I suspect some of the other characters will be mild surprises to some readers.
As for sex scenes, I’ve only trimmed out these lines myself, thus far:
He discovered a sudden urge to swallow, and did so ere he managed to gasp: “What’re you DOING?”
“Learning,” she purred, from the near darkness above him. “Learning how certain things can be undone . . . in some urgency.”
He swallowed again.
And there you go. That’s all I’m revealing for now (said the actress to the bishop).
So saith Ed. Fear not, brave scribes: I’ll keep working on him. He yields in the end, he does. (wink)
P.S. re. the post above: Ed echoes Eric: “the Underdark.”
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 26 Apr 2005 03:59:22 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 03:47:47
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| Thanks Eric and Ed! |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 17:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
first book (working title, still unofficial: SWORDS OF EVENINGSTAR). I can confirm that you’ll see some glimpses of Espar and of the Royal Court of Cormyr. I suspect some of the other characters will be mild surprises to some readers.
As for sex scenes, I’ve only trimmed out these lines myself, thus far:
He discovered a sudden urge to swallow, and did so ere he managed to gasp: “What’re you DOING?”
“Learning,” she purred, from the near darkness above him. “Learning how certain things can be undone . . . in some urgency.”
He swallowed again.
To any WOTC or Hasbro executives reading these posts, I am 30 years old and do not mind sex in novels; also I prefer the current working title.
Just my two coppers worth on the forth coming books...and having the first book clock in around 1000 pages would be nice..
Bakra, Lord of the Outlying Thread
"Rogues do it in the dark!" |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 20:51:17
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| I agree. I'd love to see an Ed Greenwood novel at a Robet Jordan page count... |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2005 : 21:39:28
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quote:
Thanks for the kind words about the Realms, and I hope it continues to entertain you life-long!
I’d love to spill all sorts of details about Merith, but I’m currently writing the Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy and some of the juiciest stuff about his character is therefore under NDA. However, I believe FR7 HALL OF HEROES and/or the 2nd Edition FR boxed set are free downloads (please help me here with links or denials, scribes of Candlekeep!), and these both give brief sketches of Merith. He was born in 1161 DR, is the oldest Knight, and my delightful Lady Hooded’s brief character sketch of him appears on Page 14 of the 2004 Questions for Ed Greenwood thread. There’s a very brief note re. his appearance on page 80 of that thread, too, and to that I can add that he’s a tall, black-haired, darkly handsome moon elf with one blue eye (right) and one green eye (left), who can be sarcastic or merrily jest, but is usually a quiet, smiling type (wits always alert and active, just not as loud and gregarious as the human Knights). He’s skilled with a blade (long sword preferred; also carries multiple daggers), and VERY swift to strike if need be (apply whatever 3.5e skills and feats necessary to achieve this in game terms). He’s Jhessail’s husband, has none of the haughtiness of xenophobia some elves (notably sun elves of high birth) exhibit (and finds such behaviour very tiresome), and is the sort of “get along with everyone” character that would have been highly valued in Myth Drannor.
I wish I could say a LOT more, but - - well, ask me again in 2009, after the last Knights novel is published.
So saith Ed. Who has to juggle so many things, so far in the future, that I marvel that he has a brain left at all!
love,
THO
Thanks milady Hooded and Loremaster Ed. Just one more help in this matter. Can I supose that Merith continue as a Fighter 6/Wizard 6, or he gained some more levels? |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 01:18:57
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| Heck, at this point, since its been so long since they were detailed and the Realms calendar has moved so far ahead, I would almost do the default "Ed" rule that he has mentioned on occaision and just boost them 10 levels ahead of your PCs, if you want them to seem like experianced, powerful adventures, or at least bump them 5 levels or so ahead if your PCs are already suppose to be powerful in their own right . . . |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 01:21:24
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Hello, all. Hereafter, Ed makes reply to some of the recent queries and comments of Zandilar and Gerath Hoan:
I, too, want to thank all scribes for allowing this discussion to unfold without a lot of the ranting and bigoted outrage that often seems to boil up online when such matters are raised (or even scented). Candlekeep is a nice place; thanks, Alaundo.
Yes, ‘my’ original Realms is far more sexual (with, for example, a far more casual approach to nudity, more societal acceptance of grown males weeping in public, and far less of the “I own my spouse’s body and all access to it, regardless of my spouse’s feelings in these matters” that the modern Western world seems to have) than the published Realms. Zandilar made a VERY important comment when she posted:
“It's just that sometimes I think WotC and their editorial staff are Ed's worst enemies. People level accusations of titilation at Ed, but it's possible the "meaning got lost in the translation". Which is to say that it has never come across in the correct or complete context it's supposed to... And I think, in part, the readers bear some of the blame for this too.
Sometimes even I need to take a step back and remind myself that Abeir-Toril isn't Earth. Other people seem incapable of distinguishing between them. So the correct context is missing.”
Well said, Zandilar. VERY well said. Usually what I’ve written has been edited enough to destroy the context. It’s no secret that although I enjoy titillation, and have even occasionally been asked to ‘spice up’ certain of my novels by editors (though far more of them have winced and asked me to tone things down, or just down the chopping themselves), I usually have far larger fish to fry in a given scene than mere naughty teasing. And it’s largely folk holding the views and attitudes currently exemplified by the ‘Christian Right’ who see nothing wrong in purporting to be able to read my mind and state as fact WHY I wrote certain words, my thinking and purposes - - very ironic when in some cases editing means what they’re complaining about aren’t the words I originally wrote at all!
SiriusBlack is correct in pointing out that WotC attitudes are governed by marketing concerns (what they think the public wants tempered by what will cause backlash/reduced access to certain markets), and to that I’ll add that from the original TSR days, art has always been able to ‘go a bit farther’ towards the risqué than text (and fiction a trifle farther than must-state-things-clearly game lore).
Now, with all of this said, I think it’s important to dash a few hopes, just a little. The story in my forthcoming short story collection throws a spotlight on Alusair’s sexuality and her own realization of her nature and behaviour (sexual and otherwise), but it does NOT (as it happens) spotlight bisexuality.
I also think it’s a mistake to “reveal one way or another what Caladnei's sexuality is and what the nature of her relationship with Alusair boils down to?” Right now, and here (outside of future Realms fiction, that is).
You see, half the FUN of the Realms (and its feeling of life) is watching its characters grow and change, and both Caladnei and Alusair are changing and growing rapidly.
I intend to explore both women (ahem, no comments just now, THO!) in tales to come. I can go so far as to say I think it’s a mistake to believe that either one of them has yet ‘settled’ on any world-view, sexual preference, or much of anything else. We do know that Alusair has sexually enjoyed the company of human males and females, the former many, many times, and the latter more than once. We also know that she ‘lets off steam’ sexually, sometimes even with violent or forced sex. We know she has the sexual promiscuity of her father Azoun IV, and that what the common folk chuckled at when Azoun did it causes many of them to label Alusair a “wanton slut” (which tells us more about the expectations of Cormyrean society about unmarried female members of their royalty than it does about Alusair, of course). We know very little about Caladnei, other than that she’s very shy by nature but has been forcibly changed by her adventuring experiences and by assuming her new role in Cormyr (and the latter is continuing to change her).
Yes, they MIGHT have a future together. That would be interesting (not just leeringly “fun,” although if WotC editors were willing, I could certainly make it that) to watch. Yet far more interesting for all Realms readers and gamers, right now, is to keep all of you guessing, examining ALL of the unfolding possibilities for both Alusair and Caladnei.
My primary aim must always be to be ‘true’ to the individual characters, not use them as vehicles gto explore GBLT issues or anything else. Yes, novels or even series are often planned that way, ‘using’ characters to explore situations and philosophies and age-old conflicts, but when actually doing the writing, word by word and paragraph by paragraph, if I’m the one with quill in hand, it will only ‘ring true’ if I visualize the characters as themselves, and never have them ‘step out of character’ to fit the convenience of the plot.
Gerath is quite correct to say that Alusair would be a likely character to explore bisexuality, and I agree: an effective and even dramatic one, and one who certainly can’t be seen as “weak.” On the other hand, as a writer, I might find, say, Filfaeril a more interesting character to employ in an exploration of bisexuality rather than the more ‘obvious’ Alusair. WARNING: no, don’t start any rumors, please, that I’m “revealing” here that Filfaeril is bisexual. I honestly don’t know if she is or not; I was speaking in hypothetical terms.
Bear in mind that the Obarskyrs are nobles of Cormyr, and we’ve seen enough hints (yes, in large part planted by me) to know that Cormyrean nobility indulge in mate-swapping, and the younger ones of each generation often ‘experiment’ with partners of both genders (without being looked down upon by other nobles), until they usually ‘settle’ into whatever behaviour (to use modern labels, straight, gay, bi, and there’s definitely crossdressing; I recall more than one nobles’ revel in original Realmsplay where temporary “she-males” were created through spells for a night’s experimental fun) individually suits them. As I see it, the common folk of Cormyr hold the royal family to higher expectations of behaviour than they do the “decadent” nobles, because the Obarskyrs represent the realm and its future. (Something akin to real-world modern British attitudes to their royal family, vis-a-vis their nobility.)
Gerath is half correct in saying: “We haven't seen Alusair in love, as far as i'm aware. She's a character of lust and little emotional attachment.”
He’s right about us not seeing her in love, and that she’s a character of lust. She’s often been governed by her lusts. However, it’s wrong to say she has little emotional attachment: that’s equating promiscuity with self-love or coldness or inability to form relationships (and reflecting modern Christian negative attitudes towards “loose” behaviour [that persons practising it are evil, or not quite sane {whatever ‘sane’ really is}, or temporarily disturbed in some way, or unsatisfied and wildly searching]). I see Alusair quite differently, although I can’t fault Gerath or anyone else for not seeing things the same way as I have, because editing down the years has entirely chopped context on this point: Alusair is often so ‘driven’ because grief builds up inside her and becomes fierce anger when it bubbles forth precisely because she DOES form many emotional attachments: too many of them to handle. She bears the weight of loving almost all of her ‘young blades’ as ‘very close friends.’ You might say she genuinely has, as I put it once, years ago, when explaining the character to Jeff Grubb: “way too many ‘best friends’ for any heart to handle.”
Yet Zandilar, don’t lose all hope. I, too, am “interested in exploring a Cormyr where it does happen that Alusair loses her heart to Caladnei. I'm interested in seeing what happens next.”
I’m just not certain that Alusair will lose her heart to Caladnei, or even that the two of them will just become friendly bedmates. I just don’t know. Nor do I have ‘the’ say over the matter, please remember - - either in practical terms (Realms fiction is work for hire and the Wotc editors have the final say as to exactly what words are printed), or in moral terms (I feel an obligation to Rich Baker and Sean Reynolds to portray a Caladnei in keeping, or logically developed from, the character they introduced).
As for your view of the closing scenes of my Shadows tale: Alusair is angry because that’s how she reacts to grief, and because she blames herself (the battle veteran) for not protecting this new and valued courtier. Yes, she’s frightened of losing her Royal Magician, but she’s far more heartstruck at losing her new friend. Her comment about missing Vangey’s manner is wistful nostalgia for the Cormyr she grew up in, where she could rebel and pursue her own whims as all unhappy teenagers do, secure in the knowledge that her father and even more her mother and EVEN MORE Vangerdahast had ‘everything under control’ between them. She misses that security, and hates the fact that she’s now going to have to BUILD that security for the realm herself. She’s mourning the loss of what reassured her, and bemoaning the fact that Caladnei . . . isn’t Vangey. Caladnei hasn’t built up a track record of always being two steps ahead and having three ploys and manipulations up her sleeve, that will let Alusair dare to trust in her. She doesn’t mistrust Caladnei’s loyalty or character, she mistrusts her wily, experienced competence (because she knows Caladnei doesn’t yet have any). It has nothing to do with the relationship between them; it has to do with what Alusair knows of what Caladnei can handle.
I have in the past written many scenes of Alusair weeping that have been chopped by various editors because they wanted Alusair to be a “strong,” liberated “angry young woman.” You see, I don’t view crying, or kindness, or understanding, or trying to comfort someone else as a weakness, and others (however unconsciously) do: they equate the stoic John Wayne-type image with strength. That can say ‘strength’ cheaply and easily, yes, but I prefer something more two-dimensional (especially with major characters).
As for the “ahast” or Dahast family and the solitary propensities of Royal Magicians, I’d like to delve into such matters in future fiction. As I know very well certain other true believers in the Realms do.
I’d like to thank Zandilar and Gerath Hoan for raising and discussing these matters; this sort of character examination is a treat to write about, here in these posts.
And in the months and years ahead, I hope you’ll both be pleased with what unfolds for Alusair, Caladnei, and sexually for some other characters in the Realms.
I DO have plans.
Heh-heh. That’s my Ed, teasing as well as I ever do at the end, there, and leaving us all ah, hanging. More Realmslore tomorrow. I'll pass on to him the recent queries about Merith, et al, pronto.
love to all,
THO
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 01:56:52
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Thank you so much Ed (and THO), that was a great post for settling down our ideas about the characters in question and about the process of 'translating' the Realms into fiction, with the atendant misunderstandings.
As for asking for answers now... take that as a compliment... i'm a huge Cormyr fan and i can't wait to see what happens next. Of course, once i find out i'll just be rubbing my hands in glee thinking about what can happen after that...
Oh, and i hope that 'ahast' fiction idea does see print! 
Thanks again, and i hope we entertain you on occaision at least a fraction of how much you've entertained all of us.
GH |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 02:28:10
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Since we came back around to this topic I hope no one minds if I get this back into the commentary. I love Ed's work. When I first starting getting involved in the Realms, I didn't appreciate Ed nearly as much as I do now, mainly because I was in on the "ground floor" and was a freshman in high school when the setting first came out. I didn't "get" him at first, even though I knew the setting was "his baby."
As I have gotten older, I have really grown into Ed's work more than many others, a fact that I really noticed when I got the "Volo's Guides" to various areas (I would recomend anyone track these down, even if you don't play D&D and just read the novels, since they really are written from the point of view of a person in the Realms, not a game character, per se). I really grew to love the setting and the nuances of the history.
Now, at this point I have to say this. I am a practicing Catholic who is quite happy with the church and doesn't think that we are particularly too uptight as a nation (the United States). I am not here to argue that, but I wanted to point this out for my next few statements. I do think Ed is slightly remiss in saying that matters that are sexual are villified ONLY by the "Christian Right." I have noticed that liberals, as well as right wingers, are wont to attack things they don't understand (i.e. D&D, video games), especially if children are involved anywhere in the mix, rather than leaving such silly matters as, oh say, knowing your own children and making an informed decision on what they should be exposed to. To restate, BOTH political extreemes make this mistake . . . I am not posting my tent in one camp or another on this one.
Were a lot of things that happen in the Realms to happen in "real life" I would be morally opposed to them. But that cuts alot deeper than sexual issues. I wouldn't be too keep on armed vigilanties killing other species becuase they are deemed evil either. But that is the rub. I enjoy the Realms as I did Greek and Norse myth, the way I do Star Wars, or any other FANTASY. Its not real, and if some things work differently in the Realms, then so be it.
The only thing I would really take offence at is if someone tried to create a fairly transparent Realmsian version of the Catholic Church and then used it as their punching bag from then out, but I don't see such a blatant parallel.
I would like to entreat my fellow scribes, however, that occaisionally
some overly broad comments about Christians do tend to dent my armor a bit, however, and while I do know there are many Christians and Christian groups that are very heavy handed and likewise paint things they do not understand with a broad brush, I would ask for the benefit of the doubt, some courtesy, and understanding that I do cherish my faith, and its not a political decision, but a spiritual one that I make when I follow it.
I do understand where such apprehension comes from however. For example, I think Tracy Hickman really went overboard on his criticism against the Book of Vile Darkness and WOTC in general. But that is a thread for another day.
BTW . . . thank you Ed for your Realms. |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 08:38:04
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Heya,
*sits blinking at the screen for a few minutes*
Wow.
Thank you for such an indepth reply! (And that you Hooded One for relaying the questions and discussion!)
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Well said, Zandilar. VERY well said. Usually what I’ve written has been edited enough to destroy the context. It’s no secret that although I enjoy titillation, and have even occasionally been asked to ‘spice up’ certain of my novels by editors (though far more of them have winced and asked me to tone things down, or just down the chopping themselves), I usually have far larger fish to fry in a given scene than mere naughty teasing. And it’s largely folk holding the views and attitudes currently exemplified by the ‘Christian Right’ who see nothing wrong in purporting to be able to read my mind and state as fact WHY I wrote certain words, my thinking and purposes - - very ironic when in some cases editing means what they’re complaining about aren’t the words I originally wrote at all!
Context is very important, and because we are only human, unclear/incorrect/incomplete context can lead us to the wrong conclusions. If I went by everything I had read about Alusair prior to this conversation, I'd say she was straight. Not just straight, but perfectly inflexibly straight. Just like Viconia in BG2, so straight that if I were to suggest that she might be even the tiniest bit queer, others would ridicule me for that position.
So when I found out otherwise, you could have knocked me over with a feather (and I'm not exactly a small lady)!
To be brutally frank - there was nothing to give me to believe otherwise. Because Alusair had been portrayed as so heterosexual, the subtext in WSCSaT was almost totally lost on me.  And if I didn't see it straight away, then I'm sure countless readers didn't see it at all. The context just isn't there for people to form other opinions, unless they're comfortable with the concept of slash - "I know this character is straight, but what if they weren't?"
quote:
Now, with all of this said, I think it’s important to dash a few hopes, just a little. The story in my forthcoming short story collection throws a spotlight on Alusair’s sexuality and her own realization of her nature and behaviour (sexual and otherwise), but it does NOT (as it happens) spotlight bisexuality.
To be honest, I wasn't really expecting it to. The topic is still so taboo, if you have gay characters - unless you're very good and a top author who has already been published, you'll be looking for a fringe publisher.
But any insight into Alusair is welcome from me... Though if it's yet another foray into her sexual past with her blades (who I'm given to believe are exclusively male), I am not sure what I'd take away from that.
Which leads me to a question - Why aren't there any females amongst Alusair's blades? Even if they weren't her occasional bed partner, I find it difficult to believe that Alusair is the only female warrior/noble in all of Cormyr of her age!
quote:
I also think it’s a mistake to “reveal one way or another what Caladnei's sexuality is and what the nature of her relationship with Alusair boils down to?” Right now, and here (outside of future Realms fiction, that is).
You see, half the FUN of the Realms (and its feeling of life) is watching its characters grow and change, and both Caladnei and Alusair are changing and growing rapidly.
But you see, it's like watching a train wreck. You know what is going to happen, and yet you're still unable to stop it. Society doesn't like Queer people, therefore the editors are going to impose certain restrictions, therefore the bisexual women end up with a husband and children and their bisexuality is never seen again. (Not that we've been SHOWN Alusair's bisexuality to begin with!)
We already kind of know that they're friends. So unless you're going to rip them apart and make them enemies, there really won't be any surprises.  (I can assure you, making them enemies would be a book flung across the room moment for me! )
Ah, but my frustration and bitterness is quite evident here, and it's not really your fault, Ed. It's basically a symptom of the ever conservative society that we live in.
quote:
I intend to explore both women (ahem, no comments just now, THO!) in tales to come. I can go so far as to say I think it’s a mistake to believe that either one of them has yet ‘settled’ on any world-view, sexual preference, or much of anything else. We do know that Alusair has sexually enjoyed the company of human males and females, the former many, many times, and the latter more than once. We also know that she ‘lets off steam’ sexually, sometimes even with violent or forced sex.
Well, how old is Alusair? You make it sound almost as if she and Caladnei were still teenagers.
The latter half of this quoted section disturbs me a touch. Violent sex, could be the SM part of BDSM or just deeply physical and passionate couplings. However, at first I was confused and disturbed by the term forced sex - I'm hoping you meant some kind of consensual BD or D/s!
quote:
We know she has the sexual promiscuity of her father Azoun IV, and that what the common folk chuckled at when Azoun did it causes many of them to label Alusair a “wanton slut” (which tells us more about the expectations of Cormyrean society about unmarried female members of their royalty than it does about Alusair, of course). We know very little about Caladnei, other than that she’s very shy by nature but has been forcibly changed by her adventuring experiences and by assuming her new role in Cormyr (and the latter is continuing to change her).
Sounds like a very strong traditional bias in their attitude towards the royal house. I can kind of understand it, because the Royal House represents the prosperity of Cormyr as a whole, and if they have children, they're ensuring the future prosperity of the Forest Kingdom - but the double standard for male and female Obarskyrs doesn't really make sense to me - is there some kind of negative bias against children born out of wedlock? But while I can see that older and/or more conservative nobles would really love to see Alusair married and pregnant, I'm sure Alusair doesn't want that for herself at the moment. She has too many other things to worry about.
But Alusair thinks she's barren. I do distinctly remember you saying so at some point. Vangerdahast meddled with her fertility (applying magical contraceptives at a reasonably young age), and then told her that she was barren. What has happened with that? Has he since come clean and told her what was up? Or has he secretly removed the contraceptives that were making her barren? Or has he inadvertantly really made her barren?
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Yes, they MIGHT have a future together. That would be interesting (not just leeringly “fun,” although if WotC editors were willing, I could certainly make it that) to watch. Yet far more interesting for all Realms readers and gamers, right now, is to keep all of you guessing, examining ALL of the unfolding possibilities for both Alusair and Caladnei.
But there's nothing to guess. The spectrum of possibility is quite narrow. Given all I've said in the last little while about the visibility of bisexuality in popular media, there's almost a 0% chance that Alusair would settle with a woman (even if it's not Caladnei) - even you mentioned that her bias is far more towards men than women. Alusair also needs to keep in mind that she and her family are still mortal, and if something happens to her nephew, she's it. She's where the buck stops. If she wants ensure that her line continues, she needs to get pregnant at some point. Somehow I think the possibility of Alusair the Single Mother is very unlikely, and a loveless marriage is also not going to be a popular choice - the former especially since both Hasbro and WotC have "Family Friendly" policies, and in most conservative western nations a "Family" is a Man and a Woman and their Children.
As I said, it's like watching a train wreck and not being able to do a thing to stop it.
For Caladnei, if she turns out to be more biased towards women (whether or not she's lesbian or bisexual) - will remain single. Our society is still too grounded in the idea that homosexuality is somehow wrong, and that we shouldn't show it in a positive light, since it might corrupt the youth of the world!  If she's more biased towards men, she'll end up single or in some form of relationship with some male, probably one at least 10 years her senior, if the track record of the Realms is anything to go by.
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My primary aim must always be to be ‘true’ to the individual characters, not use them as vehicles gto explore GBLT issues or anything else. Yes, novels or even series are often planned that way, ‘using’ characters to explore situations and philosophies and age-old conflicts, but when actually doing the writing, word by word and paragraph by paragraph, if I’m the one with quill in hand, it will only ‘ring true’ if I visualize the characters as themselves, and never have them ‘step out of character’ to fit the convenience of the plot.
I completely understand what you're saying here, and I totally agree with it. If it's not something a character would do, then they shouldn't do it. However, ultimately what a character is like is in the hands of the author - even if it doesn't seem that way at times.  (*glares at certain characters from her own original writing*)
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Gerath is quite correct to say that Alusair would be a likely character to explore bisexuality, and I agree: an effective and even dramatic one, and one who certainly can’t be seen as “weak.” On the other hand, as a writer, I might find, say, Filfaeril a more interesting character to employ in an exploration of bisexuality rather than the more ‘obvious’ Alusair. WARNING: no, don’t start any rumors, please, that I’m “revealing” here that Filfaeril is bisexual. I honestly don’t know if she is or not; I was speaking in hypothetical terms.
Except that Alusair also has the "negative" baggage of being highly promiscuous, which is a common accusation leveled at bisexuals. That isn't to say that there aren't bisexuals who are promiscuous, but there are heterosexuals and homosexuals who are equally promiscuous (just like Alusair's own father!).
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Bear in mind that the Obarskyrs are nobles of Cormyr, and we’ve seen enough hints (yes, in large part planted by me) to know that Cormyrean nobility indulge in mate-swapping, and the younger ones of each generation often ‘experiment’ with partners of both genders (without being looked down upon by other nobles), until they usually ‘settle’ into whatever behaviour (to use modern labels, straight, gay, bi, and there’s definitely crossdressing; I recall more than one nobles’ revel in original Realmsplay where temporary “she-males” were created through spells for a night’s experimental fun) individually suits them.
So bisexuality is fairly common, it would seem - and people don't have too many issues with trust when it comes to their partners. An interesting place to live.
The use of magic to bend genders is an interesting touch - which leads me back to the question I asked a little while ago (a rather strange one), would magic in the Realms allow someone to change gender in such a way that they would be fertile? I'd presume yes, since magic can be used to affect the fertility of individuals (ie: Alusair's barreness is due to Vangerdahast's spells) - but I might be off the mark.
At least transsexuals wouldn't have to go through too much trauma in the Realms, just find the money to pay for a permanent polymorph type spell.
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As I see it, the common folk of Cormyr hold the royal family to higher expectations of behaviour than they do the “decadent” nobles, because the Obarskyrs represent the realm and its future. (Something akin to real-world modern British attitudes to their royal family, vis-a-vis their nobility.)
But is holding them to higher expectations the same as holding them to the expectation of heterosexuality only? Have there ever been homosexual rulers of Cormyr?
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Gerath is half correct in saying: “We haven't seen Alusair in love, as far as i'm aware. She's a character of lust and little emotional attachment.”
He’s right about us not seeing her in love, and that she’s a character of lust. She’s often been governed by her lusts. However, it’s wrong to say she has little emotional attachment: that’s equating promiscuity with self-love or coldness or inability to form relationships (and reflecting modern Christian negative attitudes towards “loose” behaviour [that persons practising it are evil, or not quite sane {whatever ‘sane’ really is}, or temporarily disturbed in some way, or unsatisfied and wildly searching]). I see Alusair quite differently, although I can’t fault Gerath or anyone else for not seeing things the same way as I have, because editing down the years has entirely chopped context on this point: Alusair is often so ‘driven’ because grief builds up inside her and becomes fierce anger when it bubbles forth precisely because she DOES form many emotional attachments: too many of them to handle. She bears the weight of loving almost all of her ‘young blades’ as ‘very close friends.’ You might say she genuinely has, as I put it once, years ago, when explaining the character to Jeff Grubb: “way too many ‘best friends’ for any heart to handle.”
Wow. This is really quite... quite deep. It really does "click" into the puzzle. She shows anger as a way of dealing with other strong emotions - Which is something I can relate to being someone who often hides behind anger myself.
There is a lot of pain in Alusair, I think.
As for my assumption that she didn't really connect with anyone she slept with - well that's my mistake. I should know better than that. Aren't I a small donkey now?
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Yet Zandilar, don’t lose all hope. I, too, am “interested in exploring a Cormyr where it does happen that Alusair loses her heart to Caladnei. I'm interested in seeing what happens next.”
I’m just not certain that Alusair will lose her heart to Caladnei, or even that the two of them will just become friendly bedmates. I just don’t know. Nor do I have ‘the’ say over the matter, please remember - - either in practical terms (Realms fiction is work for hire and the Wotc editors have the final say as to exactly what words are printed), or in moral terms (I feel an obligation to Rich Baker and Sean Reynolds to portray a Caladnei in keeping, or logically developed from, the character they introduced).
I'll try not to lose all hope. But I'm cynical, and my cynicism often runs over my optimist. It's hard being an optimist in the body of a pessimist.
But it will be interesting to watch them grow within the context of the Realms.
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As for your view of the closing scenes of my Shadows tale: Alusair is angry because that’s how she reacts to grief, and because she blames herself (the battle veteran) for not protecting this new and valued courtier. Yes, she’s frightened of losing her Royal Magician, but she’s far more heartstruck at losing her new friend.
That's pretty much how I read it.
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Her comment about missing Vangey’s manner is wistful nostalgia for the Cormyr she grew up in, where she could rebel and pursue her own whims as all unhappy teenagers do, secure in the knowledge that her father and even more her mother and EVEN MORE Vangerdahast had ‘everything under control’ between them. She misses that security, and hates the fact that she’s now going to have to BUILD that security for the realm herself. She’s mourning the loss of what reassured her, and bemoaning the fact that Caladnei . . . isn’t Vangey. Caladnei hasn’t built up a track record of always being two steps ahead and having three ploys and manipulations up her sleeve, that will let Alusair dare to trust in her. She doesn’t mistrust Caladnei’s loyalty or character, she mistrusts her wily, experienced competence (because she knows Caladnei doesn’t yet have any). It has nothing to do with the relationship between them; it has to do with what Alusair knows of what Caladnei can handle.
That makes perfect sense. Thank you for that.
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I have in the past written many scenes of Alusair weeping that have been chopped by various editors because they wanted Alusair to be a “strong,” liberated “angry young woman.” You see, I don’t view crying, or kindness, or understanding, or trying to comfort someone else as a weakness, and others (however unconsciously) do: they equate the stoic John Wayne-type image with strength. That can say ‘strength’ cheaply and easily, yes, but I prefer something more two-dimensional (especially with major characters).
Like in Death of the Dragon when she was handed the crown, but the scene was focused more on Vangerdahast and Rowan?
I definitely agree that there's a place in the world for tears, and even the strongest of people need them. Also, a strong person is not complete without compassion, understanding, kindness, and empathy.
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As for the “ahast” or Dahast family and the solitary propensities of Royal Magicians, I’d like to delve into such matters in future fiction. As I know very well certain other true believers in the Realms do.
Would make for a very interesting set of tales.
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I’d like to thank Zandilar and Gerath Hoan for raising and discussing these matters; this sort of character examination is a treat to write about, here in these posts.
You are more than welcome, and thank you again for such an indepth reply. I really do like to talk about characters and the Realms, since I love them so much.
Ed, you're truely one of my inspirations. *bows respectfully*
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And in the months and years ahead, I hope you’ll both be pleased with what unfolds for Alusair, Caladnei, and sexually for some other characters in the Realms.
I DO have plans.
I am sure I will be, even if it's not totally what I want to see... The ride will certainly be entertaining.
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Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 15:32:08
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Ah, I believe I can clarify a point Ed made for Zandilar, here: the “forced sex” bit.
There’s a scene in ELMINSTER’S DAUGHTER wherein a furious Alusair marches out of a hunting lodge, accosts the young male noble (yes, one of her “blades”), and forces him to fight her (fisticuffs), a fight that will end (as they both know) in sex. He doesn’t want to punch ‘his’ princess, and says so, and she snarls at him that she’s ordering him to do so - - and the scene unfolds as one might expect. THAT’S what Ed meant: Alusair venting her anger by physically fighting with lovers, in effect ‘forcing’ them into sex. I should note that it’s portrayed as unusual behaviour (not for her, but that others don’t indulge in it).
Also, while I’m at it, KnightErrantJR: Ed means no attack on Christianity, and has no doubt that folks of all spectra, political and religious, exhibit views that often seek to control the behaviour of others. However, as a Canadian who sees American society firsthand only a handful of times a year (attending conventions and doing occasional bookstore tours), Ed sees and hears only the American Christian Right’s yelling about such matters on a daily basis while at home up in Canada - - because only certain individuals among the American Christian Right have the towering arrogance to regularly go on Canadian media to tell Canadians what their laws and attitudes should be. This used to be known to Ontario journalists as “the Pat Buchanan Effect,” just as it was earlier dubbed the “Jerry Falwell Noise,” the “Jimmy Swaggart Yawp,” and so on. Of COURSE this is just a very small part of Christianity, and Ed didn’t mean to imply otherwise. It’s just that while up in Canada Ed doesn’t tend to hear attempted repression from American Democrats, or anyone else except what you might call ‘card-carrying members of the right-wing American TV evangelists’ or so-called ‘Moral Majority.’ Most other Christians who speak publicly on sexual mores and ‘family’ issues place their emphasis on supporting those in need, personal responsibility, and coming to the right moral choices rather than trying to coerce or legislate (or, ahem, damn to hell) others.
Ed himself sang in a church choir for decades, and was raised as a Christian, in the United Church (to Americans: that’s the long-ago union in Canada of the Methodist, Presbyterian, Wesleyian, Congregationalist, and most Baptist churches). He can be as cynical as anyone else when it comes to corruption among clergy, but has always wanted ‘true belief’ on the part of individuals to be respected and seen as something positive, and the gods themselves to remain as mysterious (and therefore, sources of awe) to mortals as possible.
Alaundo, I don’t usually delve into such matters, but I think this is important in any understanding of why Ed ‘built’ the Realms the way he did, and portrays it the way he does.
Ed of course may have something to say himself on this, though he usually avoids talking about what he sees as essentially personal matters.
love to all,
THO
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 16:59:22
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I enjoy the Realms as I did Greek and Norse myth, the way I do Star Wars, or any other FANTASY. Its not real, and if some things work differently in the Realms, then so be it.
Ummm, my apologies to the forum and its keepers, but I"m curious to know if KnightErrantJr is aware that, while people who believe in the Norse-Teutonic deities are not at all inclined to look upon every passage in our holy scriptures as scientific veracity, nor do we look upon it as fantasy? In fact, some of us would be deeply offended by any such statement or insinuation. Especially from a Catholic. And espeically considering what Catholicism is built out of. Then again, we would be equally offended if it was said by a 7' tall Nordic warrior-king, so Catholicism really isn't the issue.
Like the Bible, such scripture as the Icelandic Eddas reflect something of man's, specifically Nordic man's, relationship with the Godhead. A relationship some of us still harken to and know to be on-going.
Nuff' said.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 17:12:20
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From the WotC boards:
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lvaerele Tasundrym (She was the Magister back in 576 to 592DR. She's called the Silent Chosen and most have no idea she exists. She guards things the old Mystra wanted to keep secret, like where the Srinshee sleeps. She also makes sure to keep human, half-elven, and elven family trees up to date so they don’t become lost.)
Why would they become 'lost' and what does it mean to be lost? |
I'm always the Wizard! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 18:01:39
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I am well aware of the beleifs of many different faiths. I have friends that practice them, as well as aquantances, and I have studied them myself, out of a desire to learn about others. I have also studied Hindism, Judiasm, and Islam. When stating what I beleive, that Greek and Norse myths are fantasy, I am well aware that you see my religeon in the same manner, and I accept that we have differing points of view. I would also point out that if you think that Catholics beleive that every word in the Bible is absolutely literal, then you don't know as much about Catholisim as you may think (for example, the creation story in Genesis . . . )
What I posted was in reply to comments that others had made on various practices in the Realms and how Ed Greewood viewed them and interpreted them in his setting. I tried very hard not to make my post a referendum on a particular topic that was outside of what was originally posited by the forum members and Mr. Greenwood. I will not further comment on my own personal situation or a response to such becuase I do not want this thread to become derailed from what its intention is, which is to gain Realmslore from the creator of the Realms itself.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 18:34:14
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I just have a general question . . . which from what I gather Ed hates, lol. I was just wondering if Ed has ever done the traditional DM reality warping . . . by that I mean, you write down an NPC that you once listed as LG as being LN, and then make up a back story that would explain the change in class, alignment, etc. that your players may never have any idea about.
I find that sometimes my absent mindedness actually moves some subplots ahead, lol. |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 19:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
When stating what I beleive, that Greek and Norse myths are fantasy, I am well aware that you see my religeon in the same manner, and I accept that we have differing points of view.
Well, we could get into some fine points about what I do and do not consider fantasy, and about what elements of any relgion should be respected as taboo and which should be taken with a grain of salt, but these points tend to apply just as equally to one's own religion as they do to that of others. Some things are negotiable and thus open to ritheous criticism. Alot of things actually, and Christianity is no exception.
Neither my deities, nor the beliefs or values that flow from them require me to validate their existence by invalidating the deities and beliefs of outsiders, Christ included. Sorry, its just not so.
And indeed, you are in no way required to embrace the particulars of anothers faith or creed. Of course, if we wish to be respected for our beliefs, or our race, or our sexual preference, we must first be willing to extend that respect. And I don't think that insinuating people are stupid, deluded, or misguided, by saying their beliefs are fantasy, is very respectful.
Perhaps now we can either end this conversation or take into private email? |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 22:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
And indeed, you are in no way required to embrace the particulars of anothers faith or creed. Of course, if we wish to be respected for our beliefs, or our race, or our sexual preference, we must first be willing to extend that respect. And I don't think that insinuating people are stupid, deluded, or misguided, by saying their beliefs are fantasy, is very respectful.
Perhaps now we can either end this conversation or take into private email?
Well met
Very well said indeed, Beowulf. Thank ye
Often such discussions can cause unrest and sometimes hostile responses, I think it best that we do not further discuss this here, certainly not in Ed's thread. Thy suggestion of continuing in private messages or email, if required, is certainly advisable.  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 00:17:34
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malchor7, you asked me “Does Ed ever feel under pressure (from WotC, from fans, from anyone, really) either to ignore non-heterosexuality or "clean it up" (like, as Zhandilar was discussing, turning bisexuality into heterosexuality when it comes to a permanent relationship)? Does he feel that the fantasy market (and/or the world in general) is really hostile toward discussions of sexuality? [snip] Does Ed think sexuality just scares people, and they don't want to talk about it? Is it religious in origin? Media-driven? Political?”
So of course I turned to Ed for his answer:
Yes, I’ve quite often felt pressure from editors and co-writers, down the years, to ‘keep it clean.’ In some part that was due to their own preferences, and in others because of the target audience TSR (and now WotC) were/are aiming at. I was quite often told, in the early days, that we were writing for the “12-year-old American male,” and laughing because I personally thought that, if we really were aiming for that consumer (and as a GenCon attendee, I KNEW we had lots of gal gamers and a majority of slightly older - - and getting older every year - - male gamers), the 12-year-old American male should have been getting a whole lot more examples of sex AND friendship and family trust and love and a whole lot LESS wanton gore and violence.
I know that a lot of TSR fears were of offending “Angry Mothers From Heck” and the Bible Belt ‘holy rollers’ (TV evangelists searching for the next easy evil target), because doing so would cost them access to markets. So a lot of the ‘avoid the sex’ (sometimes carried to extremes; I’ve mentioned here in the past about having a DRAGON article on King Arthur pulled because an editor wouldn’t let me say Lancelot and Guinevere [just to pick one of the simpler spellings of her name] were “lovers” - - a no-no because Gwen and Arthur were married at the time, so that would be “extramarital love!” Horror! Shock and awe, even!) was based in not wanting to offend certain religious folk.
However, much of the fantasy market (check out the old John Norman GOR books, and the long-running series by Robert Jordan and Terry Goodkind, to say nothing of all the Laurel Hamilton, Anne Rice, and other “vampire-sex” genre novels) these days goes much, much farther into sexuality than I ever do in the Realms.
And no, many other countries (particularly in Europe) lack a lot of the sexual repression I see in the United States. I believe part of it is rooted in how the States began (Puritan and Quaker colonies, among all the other early settlements).
What puzzles me about the current state of America are all the double standards I see (use sex to sell in television commercials and then [the football player and the Desperate Housewife ad] suddenly have a fit about doing so; revel in harder, faster movies and bestselling novels and then wag fingers at “immoral youth” and “wanton, loose morals” when the public mores that have been shown to people as examples for decades are these very same movies and novels; Religious Right preachers howl about the moral behaviour of others whilst trysting in hotels with partners married to other people, not them . . . and so on). I see dishonesty and hypocrisy as far more damaging to society at large than kissing and cuddling (and if it’s sexual diseases and the like everyone’s worried about, why not have full public access to protection and sexual hygiene instruction?). If celibacy is promoted for religious reasons, please also remove the fear and misinformation instead of treating sex as “naughty” and secretive, and therefore making it more alluring to the young (an allure that arises from basic human nature, and was being written about in ancient Rome [see Juvenal’s SATIRES and others]; what’s wrong with the Religious Right that they don’t understand human nature?). And so on . . .
However, I’m not interested in fighting with anybody about such topics.
Until the moment they feel they have the right to tell ME what to do, and think, and feel.
(Again, a lot of the trouble caused by conservative folk of any faith begins when they believe they have the right to tell everyone else how to behave, not just folk of their own faith.)
In general, in Realms fiction, I do try to show diversity. After all, we postulate a world in which lots of different intelligent races live together with humans (and magic can permanently or temporarily alter physical form, so when you pick up that hot young lass or lad in the tavern, you really don’t know if they’re really of another gender, or are several centuries old, or are an orc or other race magically shapechanged and out for a little fun). So we really do have diversity already. I just want to show its richness and consequences, and entertain along the way; the aim of most writers, really.
So saith Ed. Who’ll return with more Realmslore tomorrow.
love to all,
THO
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 02:41:50
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ah, I believe I can clarify a point Ed made for Zandilar, here: the “forced sex” bit.
There’s a scene in ELMINSTER’S DAUGHTER wherein a furious Alusair marches out of a hunting lodge, accosts the young male noble (yes, one of her “blades”), and forces him to fight her (fisticuffs), a fight that will end (as they both know) in sex. He doesn’t want to punch ‘his’ princess, and says so, and she snarls at him that she’s ordering him to do so - - and the scene unfolds as one might expect. THAT’S what Ed meant: Alusair venting her anger by physically fighting with lovers, in effect ‘forcing’ them into sex. I should note that it’s portrayed as unusual behaviour (not for her, but that others don’t indulge in it).
Okay, time for a serious few comments about this.
First up, if there's consent then it's not forced. If the young man in question had asked her to stop, I would desperately hope that she would - though perhaps not. Since she did order him to hit her, so she might have done it anyway (without consent), then it would have been rape.
To me, it looks as if Alusair has issues. That kind of behaviour is quite symptomatic of someone who suffered abuse herself at an early age. From a psychological point of view, she needs help. (Her other behaviour, hiding grief and other emotions behind anger, also fits into this pattern, though that could be a result of other trauma.) People just don't behave that way without reason. You mention that it's normal for her, but not for anyone else. Why does she do it? If it isn't because of abuse (and really I can't see her immediate family subjecting her to that), what is it that drives her to violence? What trauma has she gone through that would cause it? Warfare? This could also be what we call Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, which causes all sorts of self destructive behavior, including violence. PTSD is fairly common in Vietnam Veterans, and probably amongst anyone who has truely seen the horrors of war (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Iraq) - so why is it that only Alusair seems to show symptoms of it? Surely her blades would suffer from it, and those who fought in the last war?
As I said, she needs help - otherwise things will just get worse, no matter how many friends she has. This is the sort of internal pain that most people have problems sharing with even their nearest and dearest, and it just ends up in a cycle of self destruction that either ends in suicide or a mental breakdown.  |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 28 Apr 2005 02:53:25 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 02:47:21
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First off for Zandilar:
If I recall correctly, Alusair was born in 1335 DR. Thus, she's approaching the big 4 0. Can't wait to see how she handles that or a nephew who is popular with the young ladies in a decade or so.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I personally thought that, if we really were aiming for that consumer (and as a GenCon attendee, I KNEW we had lots of gal gamers and a majority of slightly older - - and getting older every year - - male gamers), the 12-year-old American male should have been getting a whole lot more examples of sex AND friendship and family trust and love and a whole lot LESS wanton gore and violence.
Well, as one American, I can attest that in my own experiences and in talking to others, Ed Greenwood had a better feel of the pulse of 12 year old Americans than the editors he was dealing with.
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In general, in Realms fiction, I do try to show diversity...I just want to show its richness and consequences, and entertain along the way; the aim of most writers, really.
Thank you. I'd love to see bisexual or even homosexual characters in Realms fiction as long as it's part of the character, not what defines the character. |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 14:40:42
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
First off for Zandilar:
If I recall correctly, Alusair was born in 1335 DR. Thus, she's approaching the big 4 0. Can't wait to see how she handles that or a nephew who is popular with the young ladies in a decade or so.
That would make her 37 in 1372 DR. So, time is also running out for her to have a child of her own (without going into full details, pregnancy becomes more risky, and more prone to problems the older a woman gets). I know Tanalasta had a miraculously easy pregnancy for her first one (at 37 or so herself), and especially in the manner in which she gave birth (I suspect divine assistance)...
Anyway, at 37, I would hope that Alusair had some kind of world view and some idea of her sexual preference (after all, she practices sex often enough), wouldn't you? I'm only 33 and I'm fairly settled into my life (yes, there's still room for growth and fluidity, but that goes for everyone at any age)... When you think about it, 40 is the midpoint of the human life span, it's all downhill from there - of course, that's only given you live to 80. It's definitely selling us in our 30s (early or late) short to imply that we're still too immature to be settled into a world view or a sexuality.
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Thank you. I'd love to see bisexual or even homosexual characters in Realms fiction as long as it's part of the character, not what defines the character.
But that's just the thing. There are so many characters who happen to be heterosexual, that we're blind to it. Where are the characters who happen to be bisexual or homosexual? They might be there, but I can assure you that most people think "heterosexual until proven otherwise" about everyone. So unless it's shown (remember the old writing adage... show don't tell), most people would just assume they're heterosexual.
Of course, it shouldn't be the only defining characteristic of the character. That would lead to a very much one dimensional character, and wouldn't make for very interesting reading. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 28 Apr 2005 14:42:59 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 01:08:46
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Hello, all. Herewith, Ed makes reply to David Maxson about the gods:
Hello, David. First of all, “Mr. Greenwood” is my dad. Secondly, everything I say here is abbreviated and tempered by some Big Secrets about the gods of the Realms that I can’t reveal yet (BEEG NDA time, and probably for a year or three yet).
Here we go . . .
The big failing in the published Realms to date, throughout all editions, is (through editorial neglect that was probably due to fears of smaller sales and/or offending some markets) a lack of sufficient detail about churches (creeds, aims, taboos, rituals, specific garments and gestures and customs, sacred things; all of that), and too much focus and argument about which god did exactly what to what other god, when.
The problem with concentrating on the latter is that mortals (PCs) just can never know the truth about divine matters; even the gods lie and distort, and their priesthoods certainly do. So knowing exactly when the Dawn Cataclysm happened, or if Mask is a more effective liar than Leira was, isn’t really of much practical use to a Player Character.
I’ve spoken about this here at Candlekeep before. Simply put, we can never know the truth about the doings of the gods (unless I’m writing about it, of course [Insert Big Cheesy Grin]).
As a result, the current state of affairs IS “properly "hazy" enough in terms of detail (more precisely, the lack thereof) to allow a DM to grow and develop it as his or her player's actions dictate.” Even if it doesn’t seem so.
We’re stuck with Ao (not my creation) as the creator deity, yes, but the key is that Ao is a “disinterested” (or largely hands-off) creator deity. If we have any other sort of creator deity, the game becomes meaningless, because if your success as a PC adventurer is foreordained by the gods, or even driven by conflicting divine wills and prophecies, true free will vanishes, heroism isn’t really heroism, and there’s really no point in adventuring, is there?
I advocated a one-time Godswar as a campaign fix for ‘broken’ magic items and the like. TSR folks (operating on the Marvel Comics thinking of THOR having Ragnarok every fifty issues, et al) seized on it as the way to change the rules from 1st to 2nd Edition. Have a great crisis, make it an ‘Event,’ and use it (however clumsily; assassins being a case in point here) as a blanket explanation for changes.
In my opinion, that’s MUCH better than changing things and then claiming, as you put it, “it’s always been this way.” That was an insult to the established fans/buying public when the comics editors did it (I remember listening to an artist who worked on AQUAMAN decades ago for DC Comics, bitching about an editor changing the colour of an undersea race, and answering protests that the readers would know it was different from one issue to the next with a snarl of, “Hey - - who cares? They’re just KIDS, darn it! It doesn’t MATTER!” Well, to me it sure as darn does!), and it tastes no better when you do it to gamers. By all means use incredible logic (“Sure you saw him fall over the cliff! But you found no body, right? Right? Then he’s STILL ALIVE!”); it’s better than trying to ignore changes.
Now, the changes can remain mysterious to mortals, a matter of debate and fear and even religious schism. As I said, mortals can’t be certain of anything, and if the DM keeps the focus on roleplaying and what the churches do (what are the upperpriests whispering about, behind closed doors? what will they send their agents out to try to do, next tenday?), cosmological details will fade into the “doesn’t matter to my life” for most PCs. THAT would be my foremost advice to any DM running the Realms right now.
As for my article, it’s important to remember that I was suggesting one way to build a pantheon (balanced in terms of alignments, assign portfolios to deities), in a time when anything written by Gary Gygax was official by definition, and was to be immediately incorporated into one’s own world as part of the D&D rules. I was suggesting one way of assembling and ordering gods, not promoting my method as the One True Way. I used a different, much simpler method when designing Darsar (the world in which my Band of Four novels from Tor Books are set), and a different one yet again for Castlemorn (hopefully soon to be published by Studio 2 Publishing).
So saith Ed. Whom I’ve always thought of as the One True Creator (and Old Bearded Overgod) of the Realms. Hmmm; can’t beat THAT as an entry on his resumé.
love to all,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 01:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So saith Ed. Whom I’ve always thought of as the One True Creator (and Old Bearded Overgod) of the Realms. Hmmm; can’t beat THAT as an entry on his resumé.
To pick up a strand from another scroll, perhps Kuje should add "The Hooded One" as a possible 'Chosen' of the 'Old Bearded Overgod' to his listing of other Chosen in the Realms... .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 02:02:51
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Well I didn't entirely expect to be doing this at this time in the morning. But I needed to say a few things, so I have returned to Candlekeep *waves to some familiar faces and bows to THO*.
First off, it was reading Zandilar's posts and the various mature replies that I found myself interested in other realmslore answers and eventually posting this. It is warming to see such a candid and mature discussion of sexuality within the Realms. I myself has always been pleasantly surprised by the quantity and stance of the setting's references to 'LGBT' liaisons (I'm guessing that it was the books' controversial source and his position as editor that allowed Philip Athans to keep the affair between Imoen and a female drow in the Baldur's Gate Trilogy, but in the wider field we still got Lliira's female lover in Faiths and Pantheons). I have just come to not expect any of the spectrums of non-hetrosexuality to appear in fantasy settings. I suppose its sad I should be warmed by such scant references, but I say give credit where it is due. However I ought to point out the disturbing tendency to stick to what is safe (and average male-gamer pleasing), and have only bisexual (or homosexual) women. I am all too aware of the influence that WotC's editors have, but I think that pandering to the male lesbian fantasy is surely double standards that not even such harsh "American Far-Right-ing" will explain.
Onto my questions, I've recently aquired stacks of old 1st and 2nd edition Realms accessories and have been spradically reading through them. I've also acquired Serpent Kingdoms and have had great fun doing what no doubt many of the Realms old-timers on here have been missing so much with Third Edition products, and matching up newer SK references with their throwaway origins.
I was wondering about two things.
Firstly, how did you find translating characters from the Avatar Series into constant NPCs in the adventure modules Shadowdale, Tantras, and Waterdeep? I'm aware some of the changes put into effect in the course of the Time of Troubles weren't to your taste, but was the experience of writing the modules refreshing or more of a task you felt neccessary?
Of Serpent Kingdoms, specifically of the yuan-ti and sarrukh threat, how much do the powerful Scaleless Ones (the Chosen of Mystra, various sages, [un]lucky Bedines/Lapaliiyans who are in close proximity enough with the activity to possibly encounter some of it, Twisted Rune members etc.) know or guess? Because I would imagine even a world-weary Elminster would jump at the idea that some of the earliest creatures in Toril's history slithered and worked magic once again on Faerûn. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 29 Apr 2005 02:48:38 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 02:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I, too, want to thank all scribes for allowing this discussion to unfold without a lot of the ranting and bigoted outrage that often seems to boil up online when such matters are raised (or even scented). Candlekeep is a nice place; thanks, Alaundo.
Hear hear. I have very much enjoyed this discussion and would echo those sentiments. It's valuable that people can have such a discussion without degenerating into two camps of angry sentiment. I am very impressed with the maturity here at Candlekeep.
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Usually what I’ve written has been edited enough to destroy the context.
Do you run into any kind of editorial restriction / oversight when you're writing the Band of Four? I've only read the first two, but it doesn't seem, really, all that racier -- definitely quite sexy, but I wouldn't bump it up much higher than the Realms' PG-13. Do you exercise greater freedom there?
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SiriusBlack is correct in pointing out that WotC attitudes are governed by marketing concerns (what they think the public wants tempered by what will cause backlash/reduced access to certain markets), and to that I’ll add that from the original TSR days, art has always been able to ‘go a bit farther’ towards the risqué than text (and fiction a trifle farther than must-state-things-clearly game lore).
Tragic, isn't it? But you can't fault WotC -- I understand their position implicitly. Any real change has to come from the fans -- the pocketbook, as it were.
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My primary aim must always be to be ‘true’ to the individual characters, not use them as vehicles gto explore GBLT issues or anything else. Yes, novels or even series are often planned that way, ‘using’ characters to explore situations and philosophies and age-old conflicts, but when actually doing the writing, word by word and paragraph by paragraph, if I’m the one with quill in hand, it will only ‘ring true’ if I visualize the characters as themselves, and never have them ‘step out of character’ to fit the convenience of the plot.
Absolutely. As I've found, eventually characters take on a life of their own and jump entirely out of one's control. You want to force them to do something, but you know you just can't -- everything flows organically. Do you have that experience, Ed?
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I have in the past written many scenes of Alusair weeping that have been chopped by various editors because they wanted Alusair to be a “strong,” liberated “angry young woman.” You see, I don’t view crying, or kindness, or understanding, or trying to comfort someone else as a weakness, and others (however unconsciously) do: they equate the stoic John Wayne-type image with strength. That can say ‘strength’ cheaply and easily, yes, but I prefer something more two-dimensional (especially with major characters).
I think stoicism is just repression -- it isn't a real source of strength at all, and ultimately fails most characters. Incidentally, stoicism is an important theme in my writing -- many of my characters try to be stoic and unconcerned with others around them and either 1) fail, which is not a bad thing, or 2) succumb to their own weakness. But I should clam up until y'all get your hands on Ghostwalker.
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I DO have plans.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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malchor7
Seeker
62 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 02:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
So of course I turned to Ed for his answer:
And what an answer it was. Ed of the Greenwood, I am in your debt for such powerful expression. My thanks for being so honest, and treating your fans so well.
m |
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David Maxson
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 07:06:02
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Ed,
Thank you for taking the time to reply so promptly.
My apologies to all those with questions pending whom I ‘cut in front of’, so to speak.
I am encouraged by news of NDA’s getting in the way of answering cosmology questions and questions about the Deities of the Realms. I’ll take that to mean the answers are forthcoming in one fashion or another at some point in the future.
Lastly I’ll be sure to hearken to you advice as it reflects in some ways how I already run my Realms.
Again my thanks.
David Maxson
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2005)
Topic Locked
