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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 05:19:44
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Hello, all. Ed continues to respond to Jerryd (this being Part Seven):
You go on to comment that: “it does sound to me like they would definitely be regarded as loose cannons by any Purple Dragon officer whose patrol they happened to be tagging along with. From a viewpoint of a commanding officer in the field, I sure as hell wouldn't want anyone anywhere near me or my men who was not under my authority, because people who are right next to me but free to do what they want because they have orders or agendas different from mine are more than likely going to get my men killed needlessly. I can't imagine any such field commander being anything but resentful of such tagalongs out of his control. That resent will be reflected with the typical disdain spellcasters have for "swordbrains", of course, so the working relationship is going to be poor and any situation requiring them to support each other will have the potential for disaster.”
True, if you’re speaking of green Purple Dragon officers who’ve been parachuted in from another planet and have no background knowledge of Cormyr. Anyone else knows better, because they’ve been told and shown just how useful and capable War Wizards have been on many occasions in the past. Human nature will of course lead to some Purple Dragons hating, resenting, fearing, or wanting to impress War Wizards they end up serving alongside (I had great fun writing an as-yet-unpublished short story wherein some grizzled grunts had to teach some hard reality to a young, impulsive, good-looking female War Wizard who suddenly appeared at their elbows in a battle, and wouldn’t leave - - but she in turn impressed them, and ultimately saved some of their butts, with her unexpected courage, earning their full acceptance), but things are by no means as bleak as you paint them. You end with this comment: “It's a hell of a way to run an army!”
Perhaps, but it IS the Cormyrean way, because (that counterbalancing thing you dismissed, again) the realm isn’t being ordered and its daily life prosecuted purely from a military-efficiency point of view. Just as the size, nature, and influence of militaries in any society is governed either by brute force (military running the country) or by that society’s view of what their military should be and do. I often encounter this ‘everything seen through military eyes’ viewpoint among real-life career military, and the individuals holding it tend to be among the poorest military, because they don’t understand, and don’t want to understand, all of the factors at work in society (everything from pollution to the market economy to public mood to the effects of taxation: “the interconnectedness of all things”). But then, it’s easier to blow something up or shoot someone down when you don’t think or care about the water supply you’ve just fouled for thousands of people, or the families you’ve just shattered forever by slaughtering their loved ones. So some militaries pursue this ‘dehumanizing’ process deliberately.
You post: “whenever war wizards get attached to Purple Dragon units I would expect that specific order from Vangey to be a matter of course, a given, the way things are normally done. I would expect instances in which war wizards are attached to a Purple Dragon units yet not placed under command of the commanding officer of that unit for the duration of the mission to be quite rare and exceptional.”
Correct, and I’d already said so. Again, the particular War Wizard in question will USUALLY be on hand as ‘handy artillery’ for the Purple Dragon commander to deploy as he sees fit - - but the commander will know from the outset that the War Wizard also has other orders, secret from him, that may cause the War Wizard to depart suddenly, or disagree as to a particular order (“Kill them all!” / “No,” saith the War Wizard. “The Court Wizard decrees one must be kept alive for questioning!”).
Yes, until the Purple Dragon commanders adjust their mindsets, it IS “going to lead to a poor working relationship between Purple Dragons and War Wizards.” My point is that almost all of them already have (the exceptions usually being noble sons on their first command, who ‘know’ it but haven’t really experienced it yet), because they’ve grown up in a land in which this holds true, and risen through the ranks under those working conditions. It’s what they’re used to.
You go on to make the point that War Wizards would be attached to Purple Dragon forces to provide magical support: “to provide what in modern terms would be signals, engineering, and artillery support. Now, imagine how things work work on a battlefield if these functions were not under the authority of the commanding officer. What would happen if signalmen could decide on their own what messages to send, or engineers could say "I have something better to do than helping you build a quick defensive fortification" or artillerymen could say "it better suits me to pulverize this hill over here rather than the one you're taking fire from." That would be an intolerable outrage in any battlefield situation.”
Yes, but you’re still looking at this purely from a top-down “command and control” viewpoint (“From a tactcal point of view, it's far better for there to be a unified command - one man giving the orders for how the battle will be conducted and not having to consult with people outside his authority”). As I keep telling you, War Wizards operate not just under specific orders from superiors, but also under standing orders - - and those standing orders will of course be to “do things the Dragon commander’s way” except when his doing so conflicts with, yes, as you mention, “secret orders given him by Vangey which prevent him from giving the Purple Dragons the support they want.”
You immediately conclude that “This is a recipe for defeat and disaster.”
Sorry, Jerry, but protest that you’re not operating from a modern American military viewpoint all you want - - it’s obvious to me that you’re still doing so. You seem to want to expect all militaries in the Realms to unconsciously know about, and strive to follow, modern theories of tactics, even though they inhabit a world in which magic works, strange beasties abound (and many of them ARE those strange beasties), and a vastly different level of technology and ‘back history’ hold sway.
You’ve earlier tried to justify this stance, and you do it again at this point in this post, by saying that your view of hierarchy and tactics is age-old and universal, not ‘modern American’ at all, which tells me either you haven’t absorbed much tactical-level world military history or you had teachers who operated on a very narrow focus, distorting and omitting as they went. Anyone who can argue that there’s a lot in common between Roman legion practises and modern military procedures is operating on a philosophical level that hasn’t much to do with reality.
Your comment that “This is a recipe for defeat and disaster.” only holds true, beyond a single-case basis, if Cormyr’s forces aren’t working well together but every opponent they face DOES have efficient, trusting combined arms taking the field against Cormyr. As I said in my last post, there’s utterly no evidence in Realmslore that that’s so, or has ever been so (the Witchlords had combined arms that were neither efficient nor trusting).
You then went on to illustrate, by rhetorical questioning, the feelings of “any” Purple Dragon field commander. All of these questions I agree with; of course said commander isn’t going to be overly happy. But it’s all he’s got to work with AND it’s what he’s used to.
You went on to say what your personal reaction would be, and then told me not to label it “modern American” thinking, because “Army commanders have undoutbtedly felt this way about their supporting people for as long as there have been armies. I'm sure the legate commanding a Roman legion felt exactly the way I'm describing about those attached to support his legion.”
Well, I’m not, because we don’t have any evidence that any Roman legate grew up in a society dominated by friendly wizards he dwelt alongside, whose magic demonstrably worked very capably, and who reported directly to the most powerful man in the Empire. You’re talking here about a general quite understandably being pissed off at auxiliaries or mercenaries or local musterings who are both unreliable and insubordinate, and as I don’t seem to be able to get through to you: War Wizards AREN’T subordinate in the first place, and the Purple Dragon knows the extent of his authority over them at the outset. Unless he does something very stupid or treasonous, there are going to be no “battlefield surprises,” because the War Wizards in question will have already told him: “Some of us will leave at nightfall” or “Don’t send your men into yon ruined mill, and make sure no arrow nor flame enters it, either!” or “Vangey says you’re not to send your men up into the Storm Horns.” (Remember: Vangey’s to be obeyed by Purple Dragons, too.)
So saith Ed, with a good point worth remembering at the end, there. So endeth Part Seven, but keep to your saddles, scribes, because Part Eight’s galloping up hard on the heels of this one.
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 05:23:15
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Hello again, all. Part Eight of Ed’s reply to Jerryd:
You then post: “All right, so High Horn is just a secluded training ground, "Siberia" banishment location, and safe house for the War Wizards. It might have been easier if you had ever given some hint of this in published lore.”
No, it’s NOT “just” the little list you give. It’s been a training ground for the Purple Dragons, and (as given in the old print Fonstad-penned FR Atlas) the former winter quarters for half Cormyr’s army at one time. However, I grant that you and every other scribe trying to fill in the details of Cormyr is operating from frustratingly patchy lore. So am I, but my frustration is born of my inability to sneak enough lore about the Forest Kingdom into print, early enough, to present a proper picture. It’s my hope that what I reveal here at Candlekeep can help do that (and a big part of the reason why I keep responding to you rather than just saying, “You’ve got the War Wizards all wrong, but write it up however you want for your campaign, and I’ll just ignore it.”).
You then attack my portrayal of Vangey: “All right, you admit he can't succeed at both....but then you turn around and portray him as succeeding at both.” in a manner that I view as childishly unfair, because, in my view, you’re willfully ignoring the actual words I posted (and that you quoted at these points). You go on to say that his behaviour makes him, by definition, a poor leader. Strangely enough, I don’t disagree. He IS (and always has been) a poor leader. He’s feared or respected more than loved, he doesn’t inspire anyone to risk their lives, no woman wants him to show up at their cottage and father her sons, his smile won’t sell toothpaste . . . yes, to all of that.
However, to go back to military history again, there are capable, successful commanders and there are great leaders, and the majority of one AREN’T also the other. I’ve never said that Vangey was a “great leader.” He didn’t have to be, because Azoun was (by the time Vangey was finished building him into one).
I agree with your disappointment over “the need to differentiate the three” having to happen, but I disagree that it was “done by making Vangey just as much a villain as a "good guy".” He was that way from the first, and the hints are there in published Realmslore from the very beginning. “That he had good ends does not excuse his villainous means.” confirms to me your stated preference for clear-cut black-and-white situations and settings, but the Realms has never been about that: the Realms has always been about seeming real and alive by presenting characters who, with rare exceptions, are all “gray” mixtures of folks exhibiting some evil and some good. Just as in real life. That doesn’t make them unsuitable heroes; the heroism comes from their choices. If you show me a shining innocent of a paladin, I won’t accept him as a hero until he’s built up an impressive list of accomplishments, because he hasn’t done anything heroic: he’s just followed his nature. It’s like praising Lassie for being a dog.
However, show me someone tempted with power or riches or a throne or the mate he or she wants, but that they can only attain by murder, and then show me them turning away from that temptation because they see the way or cost AND CONSCIOUSLY REJECT IT, and THAT’S a hero.
The Hooded One has already ably answered your next question (about the Knights), and earlier [[note from THO: see Part Two of this post] I dealt with your contention that Vangey’s “moment of self-honesty” was very belated.
Then you take issue with Vangey intending the War Wizards in part as a counter to the Purple Dragons, by deeming it “dangerous for Cormyr.” You go on to say “specifically pitting one against the other as some kind of "counter" is very dangerous and counterproductive, not to mention wasteful of resources.” I did NOT say that either was openly pitted against the other. The War Wizards covertly watch and work against any ‘might makes right’ or ‘we know best’ tendencies in the Purple Dragons (who are, remember, studded with nobles who just might have some private schemes for one day gaining a lot more power in the realm than they may personally have now . . . perhaps if ‘accidents’ befell all of the Obarskyrs, one after another, for instance; yes, Cormyr’d be much better off with better stock on the throne), to prevent elements of the Purple Dragon from ever staging a coup. You cited real-world examples of open rivalries here, missing much better real-world examples of how every Western country has agents within the ranks of its own military who report possible treason (or “sedition,” or whatever it’s locally called) to head off any thoughts of military takeover before an actual coup attempt erupts. You also portray the Purple Dragons as sitting in judgement on the War Wizards from above, resenting War Wizard activities, when you should be seeing the Purple Dragons as having in large part grown up in a situation where the War Wizards have this role, and therefore should accept it as the norm.
You then move on to post: “If Vangey acted on those hidden priorities enough, say in getting rid of this war wizard or shoving that war wizard off to the "Siberia" exile of High Horn or not giving the other war wizard some task he is otherwise obviously and eminently suited for, wouldn't the brilliant war wizards you described before eventually figure it out?”
Of course they would, but as I said in my earlier reply to you, Vangey HASN’T acted only on the basis of those hidden priorities. They were, remember, how he rated individual War Wizards and so selected who would undertake what missions - - and remember also that they included “demonstrated” loyalties; demonstrated by their actions during a mission, of course, so Vangey was continually testing War Wizards in this way, always moving them about and giving them new tasks. None of them below Laspeera really has the opportunity to stand back and deduce anything sinister about Vangey’s motives beyond, “He certainly loves to test us, doesn’t he?”
As for your next comment: Hmm, gotta write that 600 Musketeers novel someday. :}
Oooh, *I’d* love to read it. Write it just for us Knights, Ed, and we can read it at the cottage! Lots of swordplay, witty repartee, and lovemaking on tables. Ladies in their gowns, barefoot in their bedchambers, swording startled masked assassins who came in the windows expecting easy prey! Yes, yes, yes! Drag the Pope and some hidden code and the Nazis and a secret society or three in, and it’ll be a New York Times bestseller! Why - -
[Slaps self. Again. Then stops before giving in to the temptation to settle down to enjoy the slapping.]
Ahem. Sorry about that. That was Part Eight of Ed’s reply to Jerryd. Await, all, for Part Nine.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 05:28:59
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Hello again, all. Part Nine of Ed’s response to Jerryd:
Continuing through your post, you then justify your attempts to give the War Wizards a hierarchical rank structure by saying that I give them military roles and even call them “War” wizards, so therefore you must give them a hierarchical rank structure because it’s “suited to fulfilling what is definitely in part a military (or at least paramilitary) role.” Yes, it is suited, but it’s not the only way.
You go on to say that it’s “The best and most effective means,” and I agree.
However, it Ain’t The Way Things Are.
You suggest that it may evolve into that with Caladnei in charge, and I agree with you here, too. It probably will.
! Yes, you read that correctly: it probably will. ! Why don’t you charge right ahead and give us all suggestions of War Wizard ranks she might adopt, instead of wrangling with me about Vangerdahast’s past? Seriously! I can’t speak for Wizards as to what specifics they may or may not officially adopt, but it would be useful to many DMs, and those who prefer a rank structure for the War Wizards but don’t want the events of DotD to have occurred, yet or ever, can easily use it for the War Wizards under Vangey.
You see, the published game-setting Realms has always been about providing gamers with the maximum of play possibilities. Having a ringside seat as the War Wizards (after taking a huge beating in DEATH OF THE DRAGON) change into a hierarchical organization is a LOT more interesting than encountering a cut-and-dried, ironclad, in-place-for-decades hierarchy.
As for the rating system you’re using, I think we’d better just cast it aside.
You say you define “1 as no organization at all and a 10 as equivalent to the modern American military or government,” and in that case (with you now adding “government” since you first introduced the scale into our discussion), I’d put the War Wizards as about a 12, and several organizations I’ve invested in or worked with up around 16 through 18. In other words, you’re ranking the “modern American military or government” as the top in organization, whereas what I’ve learned from NATO exercises is that the American military have in many cases been very much out-organized by smaller forces from other countries that have always had to make do with less personnel and materiel (so I’d put the modern American military in the 12 to 14 range, depending on the sort of action we’re discussing; they can easily go as high as 16, but fall sharply when trying to work with allies, who’ve suffered so many “friendly fire” casualties from Americans for so many years that a common NATO warning about approaching American units, in use for at least three decades that I personally know of, is “Heads down! Here come the cowboys!”) and the American government, if I accept it as your 10, is actually among the most bloated and disorganized governments I’ve seen, with departments or sub-organizations often deliberately working against each other, and far more often duplicating and impeding each other in ignorance). [Note that I DIDN’T say that either the military or government were or are ineffective: on the contrary, they have far more energy, muscle, and resources (both financial and sheer size) than most others in the world today.]
As I doubt you’ll accept this opinion of mine, I think it’s best we just chuck the rating system.
You then express surprise that a foe hadn’t exploited the potential of an impostor claiming to bear Vangey’s orders during the 64 years of Vangey’s tenure, because “Vangey is neither omnipresent nor omniscient.” Again, you ignore standing orders and the ongoing intercommunications between various senior War Wizards (remember, only in the hierarchical command structure you propose are various ranks generally [as opposed to being specifically ordered not to speak about specific matters], forbidden to discuss things with each other). An impostor would almost certainly be discovered quickly, as has already happened at least twice in Realmsplay, once by the Knights of Myth Drannor, who weren’t even furnished with the standing orders and other accumulated information a War Wizard has, to make them suspicious and give them easy means of ‘testing’ someone they suspect.
You went on to post: “I don't see the Red Wizards, Dragon Cultists, Zhents, Fire Knives, Baneites, etc. as trying to attack the War Wizards as a whole to destroy them in a large action, or the War Wizards as engaging in large-scale operations against any large scale invasion of those powers.”
Correct.
You add: “However, I was under the impression that individuals and small cells of these organizations were constantly at work within Cormyr, pursuing this plot or that plot, and that the War Wizards were thus constantly busy trying to spoil these plots.”
Correct.
You post: “If my impression is correct, then that means that the War Wizards are constantly suffering losses through attrition. This situation is not primarily one cell suffering heavy losses with other cells being relatively unscathed (although that does happen on occasion, e.g. the Sevensash investigative team), but is primarily ALL the various teams being attritted over time, and what compounds this is that a wizard of any real power is not easily replaceable.”
Correct, so long as you lose the concept of set ‘cells,’ which is what most real-world resistance movements have, but the War Wizards don’t: they have ever-shifting task groups, remember?
However, you then say: “I believe that an institution without an overall organization designed to smoothly keep going in the face of such losses (i.e. a designated chain of command to allow for continuity of leadership despite losses) would eventually be gutted piecemeal - one cell or team at a time - due to the attrition degrading the leadership and coordination of the war wizards.”
As I’ve told you more than once before, the War Wizards DO have “an overall organization designed to smoothly keep going in the face of such losses.” Vangey’s fluid method is actually a much better way of “smoothly” dealing with ongoing combat losses than a rigid chain of command: a rank hierarchy system requires someone of sufficiently high rank to have the opportunity to take stock of losses and issue orders redeploying the surviving elements, and if this must be filtered through a long chain of command it takes much longer, whereas what really happens with the War Wizards is this:
“Lord Vangerdahast, sir?”
[suspiciously] “Who’s that? You’re using Thondran’s crystal but you’re not Thondran. Veldyn?”
[surprised] “Y-yes, sir. Veldyn. Thondran’s dead: the dopplegangers WERE ready for us, Lord, and Thondran and Reskryn and Olburn all bought it. Sarathsa’s hurt, badly, and I took her to the Morninglord’s shrine. So it’s just me and Balask, now. Thondran told us you wanted all the facetwists dead or tracked, and they’re all dead but one. That one’s hiding from us in the shape of a merchant’s daughter--”
“Who?”
“Uh, Ilyarana Boldovan, sir. Eldest d--”
“Of Uthrikh Boldovan the wine merchant, yes. Tall, three moles on her forehead, snippy.”
[astonished] “YES, Lord! She’s--uh, the facetwist preten--”
“Yes, yes!”
“Ahum, heh, yes, lord. Anyway, IT’S inside her bedchamber now, in the corner turret you undoubtedly know about, and Blask and I are outside. What orders, lord?”
“Good, Veldyn, VERY good. Well done. Right, here’s . . .”
And so on. The point is, Veldyn, despite being green, timid, and junior in the task group, knew what he was supposed to do, and did it, reporting in as soon as he needed additional instructions. This is typical of the War Wizards rather than being a fortunate exception - - and if a senior War Wizard not part of the group sees Veldyn and Balask carting wounded Sarathsa or lurking outside the Boldovan house, they’d report that in, too, perhaps (via Laspeera) stirring Vangey into sending a spell-message into Veldyn’s head inquiring just what, by the Dancing Dragon of the realm, he was up to?
Ah, what a splendid illustration. Realmslore to clip and save, even for scribes who weary of this back and forth war of words here. So endeth Part Nine, but Jerryd’s post isn’t entirely dealt with yet, so Ed’s not done yet, so Part Ten approacheth!
love to all,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 05:32:19
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Hello again, fellow scribes. Part Ten of Ed’s reply to Jerryd:
You then ask: “Are you saying that the War Wizards are NOT constantly beset with any number of plots by individuals or small groups of those aforementioned evil organizations trying to achieve this end or that within Cormyr? Or that the War Wizards don't bother involving themselves unless those ends directly threaten the realm?”
No and no.
You post: “I personally would have thought that the war wizards would always seek to foil any plot of these powers within the borders of Cormyr, even if the plot had nothing to do with undermining the Forest Kingdom and was nothing more than finding some lost treasure hoard, given that Red Wizards, Zhents or Dragon Cultists would hardly openly seek an adventuring charter.”
Almost correct. Not necessarily “always seek to foil;” in the case of the treasure hoard, the War Wizards would be more interested in watching and learning than they would be in pouncing on the intruders and taking the hoard for themselves or even for the realm. Sometimes letting the bad guys think they’ve gotten away with something is better than slamming the door in their faces. Please note that I said “sometimes.”
Moving on to my example of successful micromanagers: “I guess you’ve never heard of Tito, then, or Mao, or Queen Victoria, or Elizabeth I, or Henry Ford for that matter.”
You respond: “All of those examples aren't very good analogies to the War Wizards. All of those individuals were micromanagers, yes, but every one of them ALSO had extensive and highly-organized organizations operating under them (governments, or a large corporation in the case of Ford) that allowed them to achieve the success they enjoyed. You've said that the War Wizards aren't nearly that higly organized, so there's no comparison that can be made here.”
No, Jerry, I’ve not said anything of the kind. You persist in refusing to accept the organization I’m telling you they possess as being “organized” at all. That’s your error, not mine.
And I disagree entirely that the real-life people I mentioned aren’t good analogies. Henry Ford BUILT the “extensive and highly-organized organizations operating under” him, just as Vangey did. In rising to become a dictator over his country, Tito took control of a secret service he was part of, just as Vangey took control of the War Wizards. Elizabeth I built a police force (under Robert Peel) and completely transformed the spy force she inherited to make it her own. Under Victoria’s direct orders, several small-scope British intelligence departments were brought together into one, and made far more effective (as well as being given the additional duty of spying on the Foreign Office, to make sure Her Majesty’s government wasn’t sliding too far into corruption). So they’re all, in various ways, good analogies. You’re obviously operating with patchy historical knowledge here.
As Garen Thal posted after your last post, the organization of the War Wizards, historically, “depends entirely on the person at the top.”
I think Garen Thal’s analogy of a fraternal organization is, as he says, the best one. And I do indeed echo his sentiments, because I (as he) do see the War Wizards as operating very similarly to these organizations (Rotary, the Freemasons, Kinsmen, the Legion as it is in Canada [I’m not sufficiently familiar to the American counterpart to comment]). Jerry, I direct you to Garen’s post: THAT’s how the War Wizards under Vangerdahast should be depicted.
I also like Garen’s portrayal of Vangey: “Vangerdahast is a hypocrite. And a liar. And probably a "murderer" (in that he killed those better left alive to rot in prison or somesuch). Vangey is the dark shadow that floats behind every bright crown, with blood on his hands, grief on his shoulders, and guilt on his soul to keep his king pure and his kingdom strong. Many are the kingmakers that live such lives, in his world and in ours.”
Spot on. I see Vangey as beginning his career as eager and zealous, being hardened into a grimly practical veteran of Court intrigues and nobles’ traps who slowly becomes obsessed with his vision of Cormyr at all costs, convinces himself that the end justifies all means, and then in the twilight of his years begins to mellow and admit three things: that there are now some things he WON’T do in the name of The Dream; that he’s been wrong about a lot of things and in his deeds made many errors, not a few little ‘so what’ ones; and that he’s overstepped the bounds of what’s best for the realm while deluding himself that he wasn’t, and that it’s best if he remove himself from authority, in a manner least damaging to the realm (to avoid a power struggle, being as he came to his senses just before the war with the Devil Dragon and the loss of Azoun).
Can you accept this, Jerry? Or are we going to have to agree to disagree? Or trade posts again?
I see solid progress over our exchanges thus far, in that a lot more Realmslore has been laid out on the table and a lot of fuzzy areas and misunderstandings made plain. So I’m quite happy to continue, building a clearer War Wizards for us all. :}
So saith Ed, ending Part Ten and making it the last, for now. Hurray! Whew! (And so on.) As always, any scribe who feels moved to do so should chime right in.
love to all,
THO
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RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 07:49:13
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Sweet Selune.
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 08:54:31
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A question for Ed with no rush needed for the reply. Keep it at the end of the questions-list for as long as required.
With the War in Cormyr over and the subsequent destruction of Tilverton, what important changes would you note for the East Reaches of Cormyr (as opposed to the information found in Volo’s Guide to Cormyr)?
For example, due to the depredations of the War is it fair to say that places like Halfhap and Redspring are no longer seeing merchants flow to them in droves and also no longer enjoying Crown-investment in the form of coin and Purple Dragon contingents as in the past?
Or would you describe the Crown as determined to shore up north eastern Cormyr, perhaps after the rebuilding of Arabel?
Also, how did small locales such as Griffon Hill, Bospir, Hillmarch and Slingdyke fair during the War? Were they all but wiped out by advancing Orcs or perhaps by those retreating after the war ended?
As always thanks in advance for any ideas and advice you’re kind enough to provide. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 16:31:40
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quote:
Originally posted by simontrinity
Sweet Selune.
Echoes that and I could have swore I heard my Word document groan when it realized I was about to cut those ten replies into it. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Karth
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 18:34:05
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quote:
Ed said: "I see solid progress over our exchanges thus far, in that a lot more Realmslore has been laid out on the table and a lot of fuzzy areas and misunderstandings made plain. So I’m quite happy to continue, building a clearer War Wizards for us all. :}"
Amen, sir. I'm not especially happy about having to watch this horse get beat to bloody, bubbling mush. (Be polite, Karth. Be polite... *grimace*) However, Ed has definitely turned the lemons to lemonade by giving the rest of us all the detail on 'The War Wizards under Vangey' that we'll ever need to roleplay them right on the money.
...To include useful names for various War Wizards and Purple Dragon officers, given in passing.
Nothing but love for ya, Ed. ;)
A quick one for the Man, or Lady Hooded, if she thinks she can tackle it without bothering Ed unnecessarily: we know from Spellfire that "simpering man-lover" is one bit of derogatory slang referring to gay men in Faerun. I've run across a situation where one of my players has his Harper PC using Alter Self (3.5E parlance) to impersonate a young woman in the Masked Merfolk in Marsember, trying to meet with Elestra Blaebur.
Yes, the hilarity is already well under way... *chuckle*
The problem is that the PC is trying to claim his female cover identity as forbiddingly 'same-sex oriented' to stave off overly-amourous male patrons. I need both the nice, socially-acceptable slang for 'lesbian' and the derogatory, negative term. If it is different for the Western Heartland than for the Eastern, I'd love to know that as well.
The poor boy had no clue what he was getting into. Comedy...
-Karth
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Torkwaret
Seeker
Poland
82 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 22:02:32
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Dear Ed !
Could you enlighten me on the topic of "Law in the Western Heartlands" ? What I specifically would like to know is how land owning and borders is worked out (also how do typical villages and hamlets look like in that area ?) ?
Thanks !! |
...Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin... |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2005 : 03:15:12
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Hello, all. Ed makes partial reply to Foolish Owl.
Foolish Owl, you posted three questions, and (despite their being related, a judgement Ed agrees with) Ed has decided to quickly dispose of the first one and devote goodly time to (later, sorry, though it’ll mean longer, better answers!) answering the other two.
Herewith, your Question One: “You've often talked about how the Chosen, elves, and so on have to come to terms with living among humans who they will outlive. How does it affect humans to know that there are other intelligent beings, elves and dwarves in particular, that will far outlive them?” In reply, Ed saith:
Remember that humans in Faerun grow up either not knowing or caring much about non-humans (beyond the “they’re different from us, and elves are the tall, graceful, singing and sneering sorts whereas dwarves are the gruff, burly, mining-and-making-things rugged sorts” stereotypes), or knowing a lot more about demi-human longevity - - with, of course, some humans moving from the ignorant category to the more knowledgeable, as they live their lives.
The ignorant can, of course, be fed all sorts of wild tales, and will react to the ones they believe. Most humans who are the most hostile towards other races are, of course, those most ignorant of the other races.
Those humans ‘in the know’ don’t suffer the shock WE real-world folks might, because they’ve grown up in a setting in which longer-lived beings than humans have always been around in great numbers, often living with humans. Moreover, humans who live and work daily in close contact with elves and half-elves (in Silverymoon, for example) or with dwarves ditto, tend to see them as individuals and accept them for who they are, so that knowing your friend the dwarf Thorokh will outlive your grandchildren, barring misadventure, doesn’t really affect you at all: “That’s the way of dwarves; always has been, always will be.”
(With one exception: humans and demi-humans who come to love each other deeply, and form couples, sometimes even having children. As Tolkien showed us in the Aragorn and Arwen romance, this can be deeply sad, but undertaken anyway because of the glorious strength of love - - and every participant in such a relationship has to make their own decisions in dealing with the implications of “Mummy will die long before either of us, dear” and so on.)
However, it HAS had a racial effect on the character of humans, not realized (or thought about, for that matter) by most humans, an effect exacerbated by orc hordes (or rather, by humans learning from sage individuals that orcs breed like bunnies and generally live short, brutish lives and are quite aggressive as a result): Humans tend to act far more quickly than elves and dwarves, ignore or dismiss long-term consequences, exhibit more impatience, and want immediate rewards. They want the power or the gold or the desired mate NOW; there’s no tomorrow (or rather, someone else will have tomorrow, *I* only have TODAY, so let’s get on with it, already!).
Please remember that I’m speaking in generalizations, here. Many humans, particularly clergy and philosophers (I’ll get back to this, I hope, when answering your other questions, in time to come), DO readily consider long-term implications down the decades and centuries after their own deaths, and some even try to learn from elves and dwarves of their attitudes and life-philosophies. There are of course the humans who try to “cheat” death magically, through lichdom or other means, and try to learn about long life in self-preparation.
Gnomes and halflings, by the way, often live among humans, are readily accepted by their human neighbours, and are considered ‘comfortable, more like us’ by most humans, who don’t even consider most racial differences as anything greater than the cultural differences held by humans of different faiths or from different regions.
(Speaking in generalizations warning again!) Humans tend to breed faster and adapt more quickly than elves and dwarves, but elves and dwarves are more patient, and endure more rather than abandoning a place or approach or custom to rush off and embrace ‘the new.’
Just as in real life, in our world, some humans feel threatened by those who are different, some embrace and enjoy difference, and some try to change either those who are different or themselves (or both). There have been many cases of human wizards, priests, and others in the Realms who’ve captured, tortured, cut up, and bled dry elves and dwarves in experimentations aimed at somehow ‘gaining’ their longevity for the experimentors. Some of these attempts (if your DM, or you as a DM, desires it so) may even have succeeded . . .
Whew. And on THAT chilling note (“Brain fluid of an elder dwarf, anyone? I have a spare goblet-full here!”), the words of Ed conclude. I await his other Foolish Owl answers eagerly, though he warns they may be a while in coming.
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 15 Feb 2005 14:50:56 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2005 : 01:07:30
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Ah, Karth, as it happens, Ed can answer your request right away, because he VERY recently prepared some notes on this very topic for someone else. Scribes, a WARNING: EXPLICIT LANGUAGE AHEAD.
In the list that follows, “ND” means ‘not derogatory,’ a neutral, formal term, acceptable in polite society conversations, proclamations, etc. “M” means mild (common figure of speech, not really an insult), and “E” means derived from Elvish slang. Also, assume descriptive phrases to be Common, and unfamiliar (invented) words to be words from various other languages and local dialects, adopted into Common. Materials inside quotation marks are pronunciations.
For obvious reasons, most of these will probably never appear in published Realms products.
male homosexual ND = liyan (E: “LEE-awwn”), praed (derived from gnome slang)
effeminate male homosexual = dathna ND, simpering man-lover
bisexual man ND = tasmar
lecher M = winker
Casanova,
tireless woman-chaser = cod-loose winker
masochistic man = dusk
[note: refers to a male who enjoys self-bondage and/or being bound, being whipped or pierced or otherwise hurt]
cross-dresser (either gender) ND = saece (E: “SAY-sss”)
male or female who enjoys being forcibly enspelled (including shapechanging)
as part of sexual play = wild one, thaethiira (E: “thAY-th-EAR-ah”)
prostitute ND = coin-lass, coin-lad
[note: the above is roughly the equivalent of our phrase “neighbourhood professional;” I haven’t listed less polite euphemisms because there are literally dozens]
lesbian ND = thruss
dyke = battlebud
butch (manly woman) = harnor
submissive female M = rose
masochistic female M = dusk rose
[note: the above refers to a female who enjoys self-bondage and/or being bound, being whipped or pierced or otherwise hurt]
‘loose’ female = wanton, slut, sreea (E: “SREE-uh”)
bisexual female = shaeda (E: “SHAY-dah”)
So saith Ed. Whew. I know this has been useful in our Realmsplay because it allows for casual references rather than big, hold-everything-naughty-explanation-time moments. Realms authors, I think Ed has handed out some fairly polite euphemisms here, too, some of which you should be able to sneak into print.
love to all,
your wanton dusk rose and sometime shaeda,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 16 Feb 2005 01:10:41 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 01:46:10
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Hello, all. Octa recently posted queries that included these words: “Khelben and the Simbul seem like they would be much more cavalier in their attitudes to 'sending some fool to their death'
Whereas Storm would be more 'You sent my agent where, to do what, they are going to die there, how could you'” and accordingly Ed of the Greenwood makes reply:
Octa, your characterizations of the attitudes of Khelben and The Simbul and Storm are spot-on: that’s exactly how they approach ‘using’ mortals. They might want to keep their informants totally separate, but it hasn’t worked out that way: all of them have their own private spies and individuals who ‘owe’ them and can therefore be conscripted into little intelligence-gathering and messenger tasks, but they all more or less share the Harpers (or used to, before the Moonstars split).
The Silverfall website ‘profile’ tale and the two Spin A Yarn website stories you’ve already been directed to all show a little of the varying styles of the Seven (but do so vividly), as does a story that will be in the “Best of Eddie” anthology this June, Silverfall, and The Seven Sisters 2nd Edition sourcebook. There are also little flashes of it in much of the rest of my Realms fiction (moments only, usually between two of the Seven, at most).
I don’t want to delve into this subject at great length (though I’m tempted to), because of unfolding Realms products still in the early planning stages as of this posting, but I will briefly outline a few hints of sibling rivalry between the Seven.
Their disputes were most sharp and energetic earlier in their lives; as the centuries have worn on, they’ve gotten tired to fighting and come to value each other (not just as fellow Chosen of Mystra, serving the same cause, but as among the handful of other beings who’ve lived as long as they have, and so remember places now gone and people now dust, that they valued). To look at it another way: if you’re going to spend the rest of a long, long, LONG life bumping into the same people, why not be at least civil to them?
If it seems to you that I’m writing in very general terms in what follows, not specifying place-names, dates, or specific events: yes, that’s exactly what I’m doing, and I won’t answer anyone more specifically than I do here. That’s what I meant about “hints.” There’s no way I want to ruin anyone’s Realms project because I speak a little too freely here and now.
So, here we go . . .
As young, immature lasses, some of the Seven often fought over guys, of course, and over the years this sort of dispute has entirely vanished (now, in the VERY rare instances in which they want to share, they share).
By the tail end of their first centuries, many of the Seven had begun trying to rule cities, then city-states, and then small kingdoms. They competed for a time in trying to reign over larger and more powerful lands than each other.
Then most of them tired of that, and moved into starting movements or gaining personal followers (in some cases, male harems) in personality cults - - and they competed in THAT, too.
They tired of such things even faster than they’d grown weary of sitting on thrones and enduring stabbings, poisonings, arrows through their guts, squabbling, and lies. Some of them even staged their own deaths to get free of their admirers - - and of course in at least two cases discovered all they’d done was start a cult that worshipped them!
Then many of the Sisters decided that such overt activities were immature, destructive, and a poor spending of their time, and started to ‘do the Elminster thing.’ That is: manipulate mortals as slickly and as subtly as possible (with occasional mini-vacations from subtlety to indulge a personal whim) to see if they could both spread the use and popularity of magic (as Mystra was bidding them to) and to bring about particular events, fads, changes in customs, and altered power and prominence for specific realms and cities and individuals.
Pursuing such goals began as “Let’s see what I can do” and quickly became “Sisters, SEE what *I* can do,” but then inevitably those of the Seven practising it (I say “those of” because Qilué’s experiences were apart from the other six Sisters for a long time) got interested in what they were doing, and drifted apart from each other’s company and competitive interests for some centuries.
During this time, they largely outgrew (Elminster and Khelben might say “grew up”) rivalries, so those that remain now are petty, and rooted in their different personal styles and attitudes (one is forgiving, one kind, one impatient, one loves a battle, and so on).
In part, this happened because the eldest, Syluné, died and so those ‘chasing’ her either won or had the need to win taken away from them, however you choose to look at it, in part it happened because both Dove and Storm turned away from being interested in becoming ‘more powerful with magic than anyone else,’ and in part it happened because each of the Seven had now mastered and succeeded in something none of the others had taken an interest in, and had the self-confidence that gaven them under their belts.
They’ve also become interested (as the passing centuries brought romances and heartbreaks, a long crushing weight of memories, and increasingly boredom) in a wide variety of experiences, from working as slaves to baking sweets to taking dolphin form and exploring seas to mastering gambling games, and have spent much time ‘trying things.’ They’ve also dabbled in influencing priesthoods and existing power groups, and some of them have turned back to ruling - - not so much for the power, any more, but to see what they can build in the way of attitudes, advancing culture, raising standards of living and extending law and order, and so on.
They will always have different personal styles, likes and dislikes, habits and hobbies, and from those differences small rivalries will constantly arise . . . but they all serve the same goddess, and increasingly treasure each other.
As The Simbul recently said to Alustriel, “’Tis a long dance we share - - and at least I know how to dance with you, now, for the times when I just want someone to hold me and not put their feet all over mine.”
So saith Ed. Sniff. Aww, he’s done it again! Left me blinking away tears, drat him! (And love him!)
love to all,
THO
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 02:23:52
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A question for Ed regarding the Harpers
The Harpers are officially now split between Blackstaffs Moonstars and the "Official Harpers" but I was wondering whether the "Offical harpers" where split as well. I vaguely recall that Elminster (and possably Storm to) didnt agree with those who wanted Khelbhan kicked out of the Harpers for cutting a deal with Fzoul) So I was wondering if the Haprers had actually been split into 3 groups
The Moonstars based out of Blackstaffs tower (Western Faerun/Sword coast)
Twilight Hall Harpers based out Beredusk (Central Faerun)
Shadowdale faction based out of Storms Farm house in Shadowdale (Eastern Faerun/The Dalelands)
How well do the 3 factions get on with each other today?
Would a Moonstar who turned up outside Twilight Hall be driven off?
Would a Twilight Hall Harper be welcome at Storms farm in Shadowdale?
Would a Twilight hall Harper be turned into a toad if he turned up outside Blackstaffs tower in Waterdeep?
Im guessing that the rank and file of the Harpers would have split by Geography or by personality. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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RevJest
Learned Scribe
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 07:03:51
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Let me join with Dargoth in voicing interest in the Moonstars, and relations between Moonstars and Harpers. Anything Ed would care to impart I'd be interested in.
- S
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Karth
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2005 : 07:42:44
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quote:
So saith Ed. Whew. I know this has been useful in our Realmsplay because it allows for casual references rather than big, hold-everything-naughty-explanation-time moments. Realms authors, I think Ed has handed out some fairly polite euphemisms here, too, some of which you should be able to sneak into print.
love to all,
your wanton dusk rose and sometime shaeda,
THO
You're a terrible tease, Lady Hooded. I'm feeling all anxious now... ;)
Please give my thanks to Ed. That was absolutely perfect. Exactly what I needed. Looking forward to the "Best of Eddie"...
-Karth |
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 03:35:48
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I have a second question for Ed. This one requires a slightly faster response than the outstanding one about the Fall of Stars if it is at all possible.
What is the gestation period for halflings? It seems this is one of those areas TSR and WoTC are afraid to touch, and as it turns out, I'm now suddenly in the need for the answer (it's amazing what a celebartion in honor of Brandobaris will do to the most uptight of Halflings).
I'm more likely to believe in a 7-8 month period, but others with more expertise in this arena suggest 10, what say you? |
"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 04:13:18
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Hello, all.
Mr. Wilson, I’ll fire your query off to Ed, marked urgent, and we’ll see what he says.
Fiction-loving scribes should take note of THE DRAGONS RETURN, a mass market paperback just released by Malhavoc Press, of short stories set in Monte Cook’s Diamond Throne fantasy setting - - including tales by such Realms luminaries as Ed Greenwood, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak (separate stories for the lovely couple, for once!), and more!
And now to business. I bring you the words of Ed, in reply to Lord Rad, thus:
Hi, Lord Rad! You’re welcome re. All Shadows Fled; glad you’re enjoying it!
As for Galath’s Roost, I avoided specifying builder, date of building, and so on, to avoid getting in Skip’s way, and for the same reason never mapped it.
I can tell you that it’s an old “fortified manor” rather than a classical “keep” or “castle,” that it was built long ago by someone bold and human coming north from what’s now Sembia to establish a private home in the woods, that they hired or brought with them gnomes and dwarves to build it of massive stone blocks (okay, in that way it IS like a castle :} ), and that it passed through several owners over the years before the Galath whose name it now bears. It stands atop a little hill south of the Mistledale road, and has been so overgrown over the years (with trees sprouting right up through it) that it’s now entirely hidden by the forest until an observer is about sixty feet away from it, or even less. The hill has an east-west axis, and therefore so does the Roost.
I picture it as trailing away to a split and broken terrace (with overbalcony) at the west or dale end, and being broken open along its south wall by growing trees, so that some rooms on both south and west are ‘open’ to the forest, whereas the highest (squat turret) part of the Roost, the east end, is intact but swathed in creepers (the vines, not any sort of monster. :} )
The Roost has a central hallway, with doors down it giving into rooms on both sides, the easternmost room on the north side, before the end turret, being the huge, high-ceilinged feast hall featured in scenes in the book, which if I recall the novel correctly, was entered from a door off the central hallway at the east end, and the elevated features were high up on the ‘far end’ west wall of the feast hall.
Not much more detail than that exists, I’m afraid.
And there you have it. Not much but it captures the feel of the place. We Knights have been there, and I believe I left an entire change of clothing draped over some dead branches in one of the south-face rooms, when we fought some dopplegangers. One of them used a magical ring to cast a very clever illusion of a beholder, as I recall, to ‘draw our fire’ as they set up their ambush - - and they took on our shapes, so we had to “kill ourselves.” Ghoulish, ghoulish Ed. 
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 18 Feb 2005 04:15:05 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 04:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
My request to Ed, brought on by this novel, is... can you provide me with any additional information on Galath's Roost? I'm very interested in this old stronghold but find very little written on the place, only a paragraph or two within the FRCS and the Dalelands accessory. Have you any details on its rise and fall and details of the layout\structure? Many thanks.
More info on Galaths roost can be found in the Dungeon module Raiders of Galaths roost by Skip Williams, the modules in Issue 87 |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 06:14:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Fiction-loving scribes should take note of THE DRAGONS RETURN, a mass market paperback just released by Malhavoc Press, of short stories set in Monte Cook’s Diamond Throne fantasy setting - - including tales by such Realms luminaries as Ed Greenwood, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak (separate stories for the lovely couple, for once!), and more!
For those wishing more information about this product, try this link. |
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 07:10:28
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| Thank you, my Lady. |
"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
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Ty
Learned Scribe
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2005 : 18:16:37
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I have a teensy, rather odd and inane question for yourself and Mr. Greenwood.
In Volo's various guidebooks, recipes from inns are listed. Now although I am a passable cook, I'm wondering if Ed or any of you have actually ever made or eaten these recipes... since they're described in numerous passages as being quite yummy. 
Just rather curious.  |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 02:00:51
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Hello, all. I bring Ed’s swift reply to Mr. Wilson:
I’m not surprised you found nothing in TSR sources about gestation periods of halflings. Fertility, birthing details, and such were all part of the ghost-aura “we don’t talk about such things” that surrounded the absolute prohibitions of the Code of Ethics (I once had a DRAGON article about matters Arthurian rejected because I was told the word “lovers” could not be used to explain the legend of Arthur falling out with Lancelot over Guinevre). I recall (on one of my annual GenCon-time visits to the TSR offices) being told the horror stories of how two particular someones had put a section on dragon courtship and mating into the (original, 2e) DRACONOMICON, and how it had been hastily ripped out (“What were they THINKING?”). I recall at the time thinking to myself, “What’s all the fuss? Such details SHOULD be in such a sourcebook. Even more so in anything that purports to be a “Complete Guide” to any race.
[If I’d been writing that original DRACONOMICON, I’d have made sure to explore questions like this: How do dragons mate, physically? Do they engage in foreplay (distinctive calls, dancing, anything my PCs could recognize)? Are they VERY wary of the world around when doing so, or does lust or instinct or whatever take over and leave them barely caring about approaching PCs, or PCs carting chests of stuff from their hoards past them during the fun? If dragons lay eggs, where do they prefer to lay them, how many are in a clutch, how large and heavy are they, are they rubbery or hard-shelled, how fragile if a PC handles them, do they have to be kept warm to stay fertile, if broken can the contents at least be used by PCs to cook, on the trail, what can buyers tell about an egg (age, condition, breed) by just eyeballing it, and so on. And I’d remind any prudes that we’re talking about imaginary creatures here, so there’s absolutely NOTHING to be prudish about!]
So let us turn to this matter of halfling gestation periods.
Heterochrony and heterotopy are probably beyond the scope of the general D&D rules, and we’re speaking of imaginary creatures that we can “do anything with” if we really want to, but the D&D rules have always been humanocentric, and included whales and sharks and other real-world beasties, complete with reptilian, mammalian, and so on descriptors.
The observed rule in real-world life, among placental mammals, is that larger body size (which is also coupled to slower heart rate and longer lifespan) means a longer gestation period. The lifespan is the only possible complicating factor here; otherwise it’s pretty clear that halflings should clearly have a shorter gestation period than the human one (which averages shorter than nine months, by the way, even leaving aside what medical meddling does to that average). So I’d go for that 7 to 8 months.
However, halflings DO have a longer lifespan. On the other hand, their onset of puberty isn’t more than seven years longer, at most, than for humans, and only about four years later than many human societies (because human subracial traits, diets, and customs all play a part in human puberty onset). Moreover, the “deft, quick, agile” racial traits of halflings DON’T go with lower heart rates (such as, say, elephants have). So we have one factor arguing for a longer than human gestation period (12 months at most, and more likely 11 or 10-and-a-half), and two factors arguing against it.
We can’t tell if these factors are of equal strength; if they were, it’d be pretty simple to determine. If we try to weight them slightly, we could probably do something like this: 9 plus 1 is 10 (lifespan), plus a half-point (slightly later puberty, and I say “slightly” because the range of variance is only very slightly larger than the ranges found in humans due to individual genetic differences), minus 2 (great difference in size), minus a half for the heart rate difference, and we’re back at 8 months (or so).
We can of course decree anything, halflings being imaginary, but as usual the D&D rules are flexible enough to give us an out, or rather to please everyone: in the Realms we (now, with the current rules edition) have Ghostwise, Lightfoot, and Strongheart halflings. This allows us to give a range of gestation periods, and I’d plump for the Lightfoots to be closest to the humans they so often dwell among, and Ghostwise (the most reclusive) to be the most different. Otherwise, gestation period differences would have been noticed by humans long ago and been a clear defining trait of the halfling race in the game rules from the outset.
We know of real-world creatures in which pregnant females (almost certainly instinctively rather than consciously) can control the development of young within their own bodies until conditions are right. Halflings might have this ability too, but it could only go so far in concealing differences in gestation from humans, It seems to me most likely that Lightfoot halflings would have gestation periods more or less the same as human (perhaps a tenday or less shorter). Ghostwise halflings could have the ten- or even eleven-month gestation period if you’d like (which goes with their strong reliance on clan; the more immature or incapable newborn young are, the more tending they need), and Stronghearts could have the shortest (seven, seven-and-a-half, or eight).
Years ago, I did the Five Shires gazetteer for the Known World (Mystara), and that conception of halflings had darkfire and other racial magics; I’ve always thought that elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings could all possess fertility magics that control how young develop, when birthing becomes imminent, and so on. These, too, could become factors (although I’d also say that priests and elders of the races would control such magics, not adventuring PCs).
So saith Ed. There you have it: not a definitive answer, but Ed’s reasoning laid out for your choice. Ed and I both hope this is of help.
Also, to Mareka and Karth and others who’ve offered their thanks, Ed and I both say: You’re welcome, ’twas our pleasure, ask anything anytime!
love to all,
THO
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 03:39:42
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Ah, much thanks to the both of you for such a swift response. I don't mind the lack of clarity on the subject, as I'm sure WoTC would frown on such a definitive answer.
I tend to agree with Ed on his statements, and will plan on an 7 1/2 month gestation period for my player's strong heart halfling.
Thanks again for such a quick response. |
"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 05:20:08
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I take it this response
"Regarding the Witch-Lords, I’m afraid I can’t say a single useful word about them at the present time. No indeedy. Not without screwing up something that will hopefully turn out to be lovely. You have read CORMYR: A NOVEL, right? And gleaned the tiny bit about the Witch-Lords therein?"
Was due to RAS new novel Promise of the Witch-King?
(yep I have read Cormyr and I hope we'll see some more "History" novels like Cormyr and Evermeet in the future)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Verghityax
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 12:18:53
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Dear Ed of Greenwood,
Once again, it's time for me to disturb Your peace a little bit  I've already asked these questions some time ago but in case they've been forgotten, I'll just ask them one more time. No offence, please
1) Has Ulgoth's Beard got any heraldic symbol or something of this kind? If yes, how does it look exactly?
2) I would like to draw Ulgoth's Beard map. Any tips of how should that be done?
Besides that, I've got some question about Kheldrivver
1) This one is very similar to the first question about Ulgoth's Beard. Has Kheldrivver got any heraldic symbol or something of this kind? If yes, how does it look exactly?
2) Does anyone in fact rule this hamlet or it just like in Ulgoth's Beard?
3) Who owns "The Troll's Nose" inn? And is there any interesting story concerning the nose itself (like its origin)?
4) And the last question is very similar to the second question about Ulgoth's Beard. Any tips on drawing Kheldrivver's map?
If there is a possibility of this kind, I would like to have these question answered before my previous question concerning laws in Baldur's Gate and Scornubel, since the two hamlets are of greater importance to me at the moment
P.S. The Baldur's Gate map is almost done, so I shall post it here somewhere shortly. In meanwhile I want to present You with my article about Akadi. It's in polish language but You can at least have a look at the artwork I hope You like it. And here's the link: http://dnd.polter.pl/czytaj/487-Akadi.html
The uppermost is the symbol of Akadi, and going down next is Akadi's avatar (as a tornado), Akadi's priestess, necklace of Akadi's clergy and finally the last one is the stained-glass depiction of Akadi.
I would also like to show You how my maps look. At the moment I have only two but in few days Baldur's Gate should join them The mentioned maps are: Battledale (http://dnd.polter.pl/czytaj/261---Bitewna-Dolina-Informacje-Ogolne.html) - just click on the image of the map to enlarge it); and Hap (http://dnd.polter.pl/czytaj/296-Hap.html) - as with the map of Battledale, just click on it to enlarge it. |
Edited by - Verghityax on 19 Feb 2005 12:39:56 |
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FoolishOwl
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 19:11:48
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| Lest I forget again, I wanted to thank Ed o' the Greenwood for answering my question about humans and how they see themselves in light of other races, and let him know that a certain cleric of Deneir, originally from Suzail but now residing on my hard drive, eagerly awaits answers to the other questions. |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 20:17:46
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A few quick questions for the Amazing Ed Greenwood and his lovely Hooded Assistant:
In Waterdeep, what times of the day would be considered 'rush hour', whereas one could expect to have normal travel time (on foot, or cart, or what-have-you)slowed down by increased traffic volumes? What would the delays be like? (How long?) Which parts of the city are more affected and which parts are less affected?
Does the Waterdeep city guard ever setup anything akin to 'sobriety check-points'? (Strange question, I know, but for some reason it HAS come up in my campaign!)  
During which festival/holidays does travel become the worst (Like trying to navigate the French Quarter of New Orleans during Mardi Gras)?
Thanks for any help! |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
Edited by - Melfius on 19 Feb 2005 20:18:59 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 20:39:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Does the Waterdeep city guard ever setup anything akin to 'sobriety check-points'? (Strange question, I know, but for some reason it HAS come up in my campaign!)
Well I will offer my view on this one. A City Watch does not care how drunk anyone is as long as they are not causing problems or seeking to go into the wrong place. A fell down drunk in a poorer section would be allowed to sleep it off, most likely, though if might wake up dead draged off to a holding cell instead. The Watch is reactive to problems, not seeking to cause problems. There is no sobirity check as such, however anyone confused certainly subject to recieving attention of the Watch. A noble might be guided home a commoner certainly given less kind treatment. |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 20:54:42
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| Would there be anything like random spot-checking of carts and the like for contraband? For example: On a holiday weekend where Shou fireworks might be popular, would they spot-check wagons of fireworks for smokepowder? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2005 : 21:11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Would there be anything like random spot-checking of carts and the like for contraband? For example: On a holiday weekend where Shou fireworks might be popular, would they spot-check wagons of fireworks for smokepowder?
I do not know all the laws of Waterdeep, so can not answer this well. However in my realm, profiling would be used to decide which would be searched. Gnomes of course most likely to be subjected to seach for something like smokepowder entering the city or being in the city. Not sure how fireworks would work without smoke powder as far as that goes.
I can indeed see the Watch making random checks of carts or wagons if in the past there have been unwanted events occuring in the past. Those trusted and known would not be subject to seachers, the new comers of course would be until known that they can be trusted. |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2005)
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