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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2005 : 23:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Quite uncanny, i'm on the same page also 
....and I couldn't believe it when my favorite character (Chatulio, the comical copper dragon) burst out laughing at the red dragon leader, then cast a mocking laughter spell around the mountains before flying off.... well, almost  Fantastic scene.
Lord Rad, sorry to say but Chatulio didn't fly off. He got slaughtered by those other dragons. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 12:29:54
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Quite uncanny, i'm on the same page also
....and I couldn't believe it when my favorite character (Chatulio, the comical copper dragon) burst out laughing at the red dragon leader, then cast a mocking laughter spell around the mountains before flying off.... well, almost Fantastic scene.
Lord Rad, sorry to say but Chatulio didn't fly off. He got slaughtered by those other dragons.
yeah I know, DDH, althought I put a spoiler warning I didn't want to just blurt it out like that I was gutted when Chatulio got killed that way. Why oh why didn't he just bow and keep his mouth shut
How are you enjoying the novel? Have you completed it? What are your thoughts? |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Edited by - Lord Rad on 21 Jan 2005 12:31:39 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 13:38:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
I was gutted when Chatulio got killed that way. Why oh why didn't he just bow and keep his mouth shut
I think Chatulio knew he was doomed. There was no way out of the situation he was in, but at least he died with a last jab fitting his character. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 16:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
I was gutted when Chatulio got killed that way. Why oh why didn't he just bow and keep his mouth shut
I think Chatulio knew he was doomed. There was no way out of the situation he was in, but at least he died with a last jab fitting his character.
I don't think he did believe that, Sirius. He took flight after all after his initial laugh. Therefore he expected to flee to some safety, it was only the spell that ensnared him and made him plumett.
Very sad Was this the Rage that got him, Richard? With him being a more light-hearted natured dragon, it could have just effected him differently? Why oh why, Chatulio? why?! |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 16:28:55
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| Whats your review on the novel, Mr Black? |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 18:05:30
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| Yep, it was a manifestation of the Rage that made Chatulio act as he did. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2005 : 21:24:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Whats your review on the novel, Mr Black?
Didn't you see my final comments on the first page of this thread?
SiriusBlack who thinks he has the Elf_Friend virus probably from playing with unfamiliar moonblades and not washing my hands afterwards. |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 16:07:16
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So, after a few days pause I have finished the book and sadly I have to say it gets monotonous.
Dorn&Co pull of stunts no man should be able to survive but they live without any or only small injuries while dragons are killed left and right by, even prominent ones like Lareth. It not even requires heroes to do so but common people do it all the time.
The biggest problem this book(s) have is, in my opinion, that dragons are portrayed as slaughter cattle.
I really hope this changes in the third book. And I don't hope it comes to a showdown between the group and Sammaster as even the whole group should be no match for him except when supported by dragons like Nexus.
Oh, and another thing, for a gamer it is a bit strange to see gold dragons getting burned. |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 23 Jan 2005 17:09:37 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 20:33:51
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Inquisitor, first of all, Dorn and his companies aren't just any adventurers, for they are specialized in dragon hunting so it really isn't too much of a surprise to see them kill draconic creatures. Also, they did get injured, for there were many times in the book where you read about the protagonists suffering major injuries. In fact, Will took a spear in like the shoulder while Pavel got his leg broken.
Another thing I realized is that a lot of readers that read this series seem to think that EVERY dragon, drake, wrymling that appear is the equivalent of some kind of ancient red dragon. A lot of creatures that appear aren't even full dragons, just like wyrmlings or creatures that have a little bit of draconic blood in them.
The dragons are slaughtered like "cattle" because of the rage. I mean, most of them are doing suicide dives instead of throwing spells in the air or using their breath weapons. The rage has wrecked their minds and intelligence, allowing others to trick them. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2005 : 23:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Inquisitor, first of all, Dorn and his companies aren't just any adventurers, for they are specialized in dragon hunting so it really isn't too much of a surprise to see them kill draconic creatures. Also, they did get injured, for there were many times in the book where you read about the protagonists suffering major injuries. In fact, Will took a spear in like the shoulder while Pavel got his leg broken.
Another thing I realized is that a lot of readers that read this series seem to think that EVERY dragon, drake, wrymling that appear is the equivalent of some kind of ancient red dragon. A lot of creatures that appear aren't even full dragons, just like wyrmlings or creatures that have a little bit of draconic blood in them.
The dragons are slaughtered like "cattle" because of the rage. I mean, most of them are doing suicide dives instead of throwing spells in the air or using their breath weapons. The rage has wrecked their minds and intelligence, allowing others to trick them.
Yes, Dorn is a dragonslyer, still that doesn't mean that he is invulnerable to dragons. Considering the stunts he pull of (like the jump on Malazan, getting caught in her firey breath and not being burned horribly. The resilence of his metal parts is really overdone imo) they should at least be crippled sometimes. Yes, Pavel and Will were crippled, but by ogres not by dragons. Isn't it a bit strange that those heroes can defeat dragons without problems but get nearly defeated by ogres? And Taegan is certainly no trained dragonslayer but also has no troubles to kill dragons left and right. (3-4 to my counting depending if you count the Queens Bronze in book 1)
And those dragons appearing in the books are certainly no wyrmlings. When Sammaster assembles a task force to strike a monastry he would certainly choose adult dragons and when going with game stats, the silver dragon the company defeated in the first book who used Reverse Gravity was a Great Wyrm. Even without using game material he was certainly not young.
As for the rage yes, it makes dragons more vulnerable to tactics. But the fights featured in the book against dragons often doesn't rely on tactic but on brute strength, a field where dragons should be vastly superior, enraged or not. Still whenever humans fight dragons in the book, the humans win. The only times humans failed to kill dragons were the two Queens Bronze in book one and the third monk group in the final battle. In every other battle humans killed dragons rather easily. (No routing troops, no destroyed army etc. They have losses, sure but nothing major as the writing suggests.)
Also, enraged dragons are still sane enough to cast spells, so they are not that easy to kill while raging (Lareth, even while raging also used tactics in the duel for example). And the blue which attacked the ogres certainly didn't use a suicide dive but cunning illusions.
And the dragons which assulted the monastry were not enraged and still failed to defeat the monks while Dorn hasn't yet arrived. That is a very weak performance from the dragons.
It is said numerous times in the books that a rage of dragons would be a great catastrophe or even the end of Faerun, but when you see how pitful those dragons perform in battle can you really belive that they are anything more than a mild annoyance? |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 23 Jan 2005 23:26:26 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 01:22:01
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Well, these guys have been fighting dragons for years so they know little things like when a dragon would unleash its breath or twitch its tail. While it may not be that important, every little action you know of your opponent gives them a bigger chance of victory and survival.
Second, many of the "dragons" in the book aren't actual like ancient wyrms. For example, there's many occasions where they fought "dragon-like creatures with no wings". I didn't say ALL the dragons were minor wyrmlings but many that were assembled were. For example, the magma drakes that were part of the assault on the monastery. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 02:09:36
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| Maybe since there's no formal rules regarding dragon rage, it was figured to be similiar to barbarian rage, no magic. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2005 : 06:13:08
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There are enough examples of enraged dragons casting spells (The blue which attacked the ogres and Lareth, but it can be argued that Lareth wasn't in full rage). And when it is like babarian rage it would make the dragons even stronger in close combat.
Yes, there were many drakes there, but they aren't weak too. And there were still many full dragons in the book. (Especially Fang Dragons which are a master of close combat) |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 24 Jan 2005 06:14:47 |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2005 : 02:44:04
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Our DM liked the books so much that he introduced the "dragon rage" concept in our game, making the "target" of a bit of that being my half-dragon paladin who became "irritable" as a result of this rage, her human bloodline keeping her, so far, from experiencing the full Rage.
I also enjoyed both books and curse the fact that it's OVER A YEAR until the next one!  
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2005 : 01:14:07
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I love both of the Rogue Dragons books so far (I think Mr. Byers is a great writer), but I liked the first book a bit better. I just thought it was more fun when the group of dragon hunters was all together, because the witty banter between them--including Dorn's taciturn way of keeping his fellows in line--was to die for (it's in the second book as well, but less so). The intensity between Dorn and Kara, in their conversations, also peters out a bit--which makes sense as their relationship develops, but it was something I admit that I missed.
I was impressed with the scene in which Kara attacks Dorn though--well written and scary.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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lexxan
Acolyte
Italy
5 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 16:19:29
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Spoilers
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I finished this novel a few hours ago. Overall, it's a nice follow up to the first novel in the series. Some plot discussion and comments are below.....
I agree totally with what you have written, SiriusBlack , and I would add:
1) The dragons battle was a good one (descripted well)
2) I still would like see a short summary of the story before the prologue
3) I did not like again the oblique titles on the cover
4) Maybe too many "Stars" in the cast, not all first class.
5) I continue to don't appreciate much the Polar Dwarf character, it should be "Enriched" somehow.
6) final comment, an excellent book (just a little below the first. But it is normal because you miss the surprises linked to the introductions of the characters (i.e. Dorn's story) and the basic plot (I.e. the Rage))
Pls! pls! Richard (Byers), convince the publisher to add a small summary. ALso in the back-cover would be enough! Compliments anyway for your work! |
LeXXan |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 16:53:24
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So far, I'm really liking Taegan and the dragon battle at the end was pretty sweet...oh, yes, Brimstone is more than likely to betray the team near the end for his own interests (Vampire drake...somehow I just don't trust him, wonder why...)
Hope Sammaster dies hideously, though. I was pleased to see Malazan go how she did |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2005 : 23:09:20
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There was one thing I didn't care for: the use of the word "translate" to describe translocational magic. I know that it is a proper usage of the word, but it's not the most common usage. Because most people think of the "changing into another language" definition when they see that word, it was a bit jarring. It was also a bit jarring in that most translocational magic is described as teleporting -- meaning that saying "translating" instead of "teleporting" is rather unlikely for even a highly educated character in the Realms. It was like speaking a different lingo...
I know it's just a minor quibble -- it happened, what, three times in the book? Still, it bugged me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 00:31:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
So far, I'm really liking Taegan and the dragon battle at the end was pretty sweet...oh, yes, Brimstone is more than likely to betray the team near the end for his own interests (Vampire drake...somehow I just don't trust him, wonder why...)
I didn't like the heavy-handed way in which it was pointed out how to destroy Brimstone should he turn on the team. Maybe it only bothers me because I've read enough fantasy novels to be able to predict things, sometimes, but I have the feeling that since that detail was mentioned, it's going to be used (or else it would have been pointless). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Mar 2005 00:31:39 |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 01:01:57
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| Brimstone: I'm...evil...I'm working with you...but for purely selfish reasons! Bet you didn't see THAT coming! I'm evil, don't forget it...really...Why are you all laughing!? Why is the Lathanderite grinning...? |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 16:31:57
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Thanks to all who have taken the trouble to say they're enjoying the trilogy. I very much appreciate it.
Wooly, I get what you mean about "translate," but the problem is that I find "teleport" jarring when it crops up in a fantasy story. To me, it's purely a science-fiction word, and conspicuously out of place in a tale of magic, dragons, and such. When I stumble over it, it knocks me right out of the story. Whereas "translate" does not disrupt the flow.
Guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 17:38:36
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I like it when authors have their own little idiosyncracies, such as using the word "translate". How many other authors have we heard use teleport over and over again? As long as the "new word" doesn't break established material (such as using a word that is often connotated to somthing idiosyncratic to the setting already), I have to say thats WHY I read, to get a variety of ideas in my head.
I'm glad to see someone use some races that have been around for a while (Avariels and Arctic Dwarves, for example). And to the point many have made about the dragons not fighting well enough, etc. Yes, the party is a group of trained dragon slayers, being aided by dragons as well, and I think its been pretty clear that the Rage affects every wyrm differently. The only constant is a lack of reason in some manner and a desire to kill. If the rage only made them more agressive, the chromatics might not even be worried about it, but as it is, the rage also makes them careless.
As too "common people" killing too many of them . . . when a town of thousands calls out a militia to attack them using long spears, ballistas, catapults, archers (perhaps even with alchemical arrows, etc), eventually a dragon or two will die . . . and likely has taken a few hundred if not a thousand of the humans with them.
The whole reason the rage is terrifying to humans and the like is that there may not be any major cities left. The reason it is terrifying to dragons is that they may or may not survive an extended rage, and if they kill off all the humans, elves, giants, etc., then the rage would have them all turn on each other.
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 09:32:12
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And to the point many have made about the dragons not fighting well enough, etc. Yes, the party is a group of trained dragon slayers, being aided by dragons as well, and I think its been pretty clear that the Rage affects every wyrm differently. The only constant is a lack of reason in some manner and a desire to kill. If the rage only made them more agressive, the chromatics might not even be worried about it, but as it is, the rage also makes them careless.
As too "common people" killing too many of them . . . when a town of thousands calls out a militia to attack them using long spears, ballistas, catapults, archers (perhaps even with alchemical arrows, etc), eventually a dragon or two will die . . . and likely has taken a few hundred if not a thousand of the humans with them.
That is all fine when an army fights against a hadnfull of dragons, like the Quuens Bronzes in the first book (althoug even that was streched) or the opening scene of the second book.
But what about when, in the first book, the dragons attacked the small town the party was in (Don't have the book with me, so I can't look up the name). How many drakes and dragons were the band of 20 archers and the heroes, after beeing surprised and weary from a previous battle, able to kill? What about when Warsong raged in the tower? Taergan defeated him nearly single handed even while beeing surprised and the only losses were some books. Same for the "mighty" sunwyrm.
The biggest example of how weak dragons are portrayed is the monastry. About thrity, I repeat thirty unraged dragons are unable to destroy a monastry defended primary by monks. Monks, who don't have a clues about dragon fighting or archery.
How many monks are there in this monastry? 300-400? That are about 13 monks per dragon and the dragons still were not able to even take the courtyard.
Like you said when a town of thousands fight against dragons with all what they have a dragon or two should die after a long battle, but in this book it aren't one or two dragons, it are five to ten dragons. And so far we only have seen small towns fighting against dragons. With this kill ration major cities should have no problem to defend themself agains fifty or more dragons.
It is sad when in a book about dragons the biggest victory of evil is when goblins and ogres take some fortresses while dragons get slaugthered all over the place.
My guess is that Richard isn't allowed to destroy/kill something big and important except for Lareth.
But that is only my guess, it would be nice if Richard could reply on that. |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 05 Mar 2005 11:43:50 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 16:21:52
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First off, in the first novel in the town only the black dragon was a true dragon. The others were fearsome but not quite the terrors that true dragons are.
I'm not going to complain about Taegan because he is a seasoned fighter, and I think its silly in a novel that caters to D&D players that we often get into whats "realistic" for adventurers to do.
And all of the dragons are affected by the rage, influencing their behavior and decicions, but some are fully affected by the rage and others are only partially impaired. Its not an all or nothing thing, but there is a point of no return. |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2005 : 17:17:12
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Taegan is not a seasoned adventurer. He is a fencing tutor. And fencing is imo more a fight between two fencers and not between a fencer and a huge dragon. But he can still kill dragons without problems.
The rage is no excuse to make dragons weak. It attacks the mind of the dragons, not their physical abilities nor their combat powress.
And the dragons at the monastry where in no way affected by the rage but were still very weak.
You said it yourself, this is a D&D novel and so I would like to see that the adventure the heroes have are at least remotly possible by the rules.
As dragons are portrayed in this books, they are no danger to any bigger city or organized kingdom and there is no reason why people fear the rage.
Dragons are in this books trivialized. They are not the mighty monsters they are in most peoples fantasies and in the D&D rules, but only cannon fodder like orcs and ogres. |
Edited by - Inquisitor on 05 Mar 2005 17:32:30 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 15:35:44
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Inquisitor: I was not actually forbidden to destroy anything big and important, but as you can probably guess, I would have had to obtain permission on a case-by-case basis to wreak that kind of havoc. Because when a novelist is working in a shared world, the caretakers want to make sure he doesn't use up something cool that could play an important role in future products just for the sake on one nifty scene in a single novel.
So, in The Rage, the only town destroyed on stage is Ylraphon. A frontier outpost/shany town kind of place that's been destroyed and rebuilt many times before, and so, obviously, can be rebuilt again. I chose it for devastation because I knew that trashing it wouldn't pose a problem.
I remember suggesting restoring Tilverton in Book One, then destroying it again in Book Two, but cooler heads prevailed. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 16:33:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Inquisitor: I was not actually forbidden to destroy anything big and important, but as you can probably guess, I would have had to obtain permission on a case-by-case basis to wreak that kind of havoc. Because when a novelist is working in a shared world, the caretakers want to make sure he doesn't use up something cool that could play an important role in future products just for the sake on one nifty scene in a single novel.
I understand the reasoning, but this can be seen as lessening the impact of the Rage. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 21:45:09
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| I had to look this up before I could further defend Taegan . . . Teagan has been in Impiltur for a while (there was even a short story in Dragon that featured him, though I cannot recall what issue it was now). On top of that, he is mentioned as having mastered Bladesong, which I would iterpret as meaning he is a bladesinger Prc. If that is true he would have to be a 4th level fighter at least, a first level wizard, and a 1st level bladesinger, meaning that he is 6th level at a minimum. On top of that he often uses what appears to be dimention door, a 4th level spell, he would be about 16th level (Fighter 4/Wizard 2/Bladesinger 10), unless he only took one or two levels of the bladesinger class, in which case he would be Fighter 4/Bladesinger 2/Wizard 6, a 12th level character, but unless he is using a different spell than dimention door, Taegan is 12-16th level. Somewhere along the lines he learned something . . . |
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Inquisitor
Acolyte
Germany
42 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 21:50:47
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And a adult bronze dragon is CR 15, a young adult is CR 12. And that is for made for four characters, not for one.
And dragons are very strong for their CR, especially when caught unprepared. |
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Fyrespray
Acolyte
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 19:47:08
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I have thorually enjoyed these books so far, and I would have to say that I don't see the monastry holding out as being that unrealistic. The building could quite easily have up to a couple of thousand monks, and monks are not to be trifled with.
We saw the leader of the monk's (can't rmember his name off the top of my head) use a Quivering Palm on one of the magma drakes, so we know that we have a group that is well trained in martial arts. Bearing in mind that the monks are portrayed as being extremely agile and expert fighters I would say that holding off the dragons while suffering heavy losses is not really that unrealistic. If they had been living in a wooden barn it would have been a different matter but a huge stone fortress that could bear the brunt of the Dragon's pysical attacks while backed up by a plethora of mages and clerics would be a force to be wary of, even if your a dragon. |
Fyrespray
http://www.ardescosolutions.com
http://www.lazeryattack.com |
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The Rite: Year of Rogue Dragons Book II (Spoilers)
