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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 17:47:21
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Poll Question:
Trilogies are a mainstay of fantasy and science fiction publishing, but the "middle book" is usually the weakest of the three.
What Forgotten Realms trilogy has the best "middle book" in the series? Comment on what you think makes a standout "middle book".
--Eric
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 18 Nov 2004 17:49:07
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 17:53:36
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Well met
My oh my, these polls are certainly not as easy as first imagined 
A very good point you have made Eric... and yet again, I am quite torn. Regardless of my previous vote for the Finder's Stone Trilogy, and as much as I thoroughly enjoyed The Wyvern's Spur, I have voted for Dragonwall.
Now given more thought, I may well have chosen the above mentioned novel featuring Giogi Wyvernspur, or indeed one of two others I had in mind. However, a rash choice had to be made before I went insane from pondering overmuch  Whilst Dragonwall wasn't exactly full of Realms flavor, I thought it a very tense and atmospheric read and very well written. Perhaps because I wasn't expecting much at all, it surprised me immensely. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 18:12:22
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I had to vote for The Wyvern's Spur, because it's one of my fave Realms novels, and because it's got a couple of my fave characters, as well -- Giogionni Wyvernspur and Cat of Ordulin. It's just got a fun feel to it.
I recently re-read the Empires trilogy, and while I did enjoy Dragonwall (and I wonder what the current status of the wall is), I'd always liked Crusade a lot more. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 18:31:18
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My vote goes to Under Fallen Stars. I think this was a great trilogy and this middle book really helped to create depth, especially for the setting.  |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 21:22:58
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| I have to go with The Wyvern's Spur, Giogionni is also one of my favourates. |
Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 21:29:11
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| Put me down for The Ruby Guardian or Dawn of Night. Both featured great cliffhangers but showed character development and kept the story still tightly focused. |
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Seismo
Acolyte
New Zealand
28 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 21:33:58
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| For me it had to be The Wyvern's Spur - early Realms just has that nice flavour. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 23:58:28
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| Well, thinking back there are only two or three of these I can remember. The others did not stand out. So, I had to go with Exile because the name tells you what it was about. Also, it advanced the story of Drizzt in an important point in his development as a character. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2004 : 01:33:12
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| Good poll, I'm not entirely sure of my answer given that I've not read a lot of those books in the poll. But of those I have, and thinking back I would agree that second books are often the 'worst' or my least favourites. However, the reverse can be true, in some cases, they can be my favourite. Not Realms but The Two Towers is my favourite book in LOTR, for example. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2004 : 02:16:55
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FWIW, I couldn't fit every candidate in the list, even limiting it to completed trilogies that only had 3 books (with no later books tacked on). Hence books like The Ruby Guardian and Dawn of Night were left off as book 3 of those trilogies hasn't been published yet.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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arilyn742
Seeker
Ireland
54 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2004 : 00:38:36
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| I have little experience in this area, but I'm guessing I would see most of these the same as the relatively boring middle chapters of trilogies in general. Exile still suffers from this, but at least I've read it, and it kept me reading to get the end a lot better than Streams of Silver (which, because of various other things that started to take priority, took me some eight months to read). It gets my vote. |
Yonde iru, mune no doko ka oku de
Itsumo kokoro odoru yume wo mitai
Kanashimi wa kazoekirenai keredo
Sono mukou de kitto anata ni aeru |
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arilyn742
Seeker
Ireland
54 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2004 : 00:40:22
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| Sumimasen. To give an example justifying my statement that middle parts are the worst, watch Peter Jackson's LotR films. |
Yonde iru, mune no doko ka oku de
Itsumo kokoro odoru yume wo mitai
Kanashimi wa kazoekirenai keredo
Sono mukou de kitto anata ni aeru |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2004 : 06:07:59
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| Domo arigato. Point well taken |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2004 : 18:30:55
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Streams of Silver had to be the best middle novel. It was probably one of RAS's best works.
Also, this was the first FR book that I had read... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2004 : 11:42:41
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| Since I only recognise five of the names on the list (one's that I have read doesn't mean ones that I remember well)... it was a tough decision. Well that tares it, the Wyvern's Spur it is then. |
āDarkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyedā¦by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!ā
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 16:43:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
For me, it was Beyond the High Road. I always compare a good middle novel to The Empire Strikes Back. By the end of the middle novel, our heroes should be in the worst situation up to that point.
A unique litmus test. I like that.
quote:
Aside from this being a good middle novel, I just love this series. I love the characters, Vangerdahast is my all-time favorite character from all the Realms novels, narrowly edging out Malik el Sami yn Nasser.
Have you read Elminster's Daughter? It includes details on Vandy's future. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 22:55:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I love the characters, Vangerdahast is my all-time favorite character from all the Realms novels, narrowly edging out Malik el Sami yn Nasser.
I've never really liked Vangey, myself (or Vandy, as SB calls him ). I don't know why, but his character has never really grabbed me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 03:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've never really liked Vangey, myself (or Vandy, as SB calls him ). I don't know why, but his character has never really grabbed me.
Vandy wasn't a big fave of mine either. But, I really liked how he was portrayed in the last novel. Perhaps it was the company he kept and his final path in service to Cormyr. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 01:41:53
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| I chose Tantras.This is my favorite series of them all.Heck this is where Bane was......well I don't want to spoil it for the ones who haven't read it yet. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 04:03:10
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| I also chose the Wyvern's Spur, as it was the only novel on the list that actually spurred me to run an adventure about it. |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 04:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
I also chose the Wyvern's Spur, as it was the only novel on the list that actually spurred me to run an adventure about it.
Oh? Details please. What was the scope of the adventure that you designed based on this inspiration? |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 04:20:34
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| Well, it started off on finding Giogi (who had used the Spur to stop a baddie and disappeared). Then, incorporating an idea I got from an old Genesis song, I appointed one of my player's the "Moonlit Knight", Champion of Selūne. He still plays the character from time-to-time. Usally when we do our bi-yearly High-Level game. |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 15:43:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Well, it started off on finding Giogi (who had used the Spur to stop a baddie and disappeared). Then, incorporating an idea I got from an old Genesis song, I appointed one of my player's the "Moonlit Knight", Champion of Selūne. He still plays the character from time-to-time. Usally when we do our bi-yearly High-Level game.
Is that Genesis song from before or after Peter Gabriel left? I like the combo though, D&D and music from a good band. Thanks for sharing. |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 01:54:02
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It's the first track on "Selling England by the Pound" titled "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight", which was sung by Gabriel (he left the following year).
It was one of those coincidences where I heard it just after reading The Wyvern's Spur, and the whole Selūnite thing just clicked. So, as Giogi had been kidnapped by Sammaster of the Cult of the Dragon, I figured Selūne would send someone to retrieve him, if not the Spur itself (if poor Giogi was dead)to keep Sammaster from developing an army of were-Wyvern soldiers. Hence, she named another lesser noble, (one Galwyn Cormaeril) to the mantle of her Moonlit Knight, and the rest as they say is history. |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Miraculixx
Acolyte
Germany
19 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2004 : 20:15:37
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My voting for best middle novel isnt on your list, but ill say it nontheless
Tangled Webs from Elaine Cunningham, that would be my vote |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 14:35:08
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Thanks for the write-in vote, Miraculixx.
Also not on the list was The Floodgate, the middle novel of the Counselors & Kings trilogy.
This thread raises some good questions. The trilogy is a common format, but it's tough to provide satisfying resolution at the end of each book while building toward the final conflict. I've been giving that considerable thought of late, and will be interested to hear readers' comments. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 21:55:24
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| Elaine do you necessarily have to have a satisfying resolution at the end of the first two novels???I don't think that you really have to.If the trilogy is well written.Has a great storyline.Interesting characters.I think that you can leave the masses,shall I say "hanging",until the final conflict.With no resolution at all. Maybe me saying that.It can make the first two novels of a trilogy kind of boring.I'm not sure to tell the truth.Hopefully the story is interesting enough that the readers will hang in there until the end. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 22:21:23
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| It's an interesting balance. You need to have big questions that are only answered in the grand finale, so there's one sense in which "satisfying resolutions" are actually precluded earlier on. But on the other hand, readers absolutely must feel that the story is progressing. That some of the characters are actually accomplishing something. If you slog all the way through the book only to come away with the feeling that the writer's just marking time until the moment comes to knock over all the dominos in Book 3 (or, in the case of some long-running sagas, Book 12 or maybe 371), that's infuratiating. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 03:26:54
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I'm inclined to think there needs to be a complete story in each book of a trilogy. Beginning, middle, end--all that.
One way of looking at it is to consider the entire trilogy one story, which progresses over the course of three books. Each book has one or more subplots, at least one of which will be resolved at the end of that book. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 19:32:09
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I voted for CROWN OF FIRE for just that reason. It might not be anywhere near the best fantasy novel I've ever read, but more than any of the others on this poll, I thought it told a story "by itself." YMMV, of course. |
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Best "Middle" Novel
