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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Aug 2004 : 07:35:44
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I have a theory I've been comtemplating of late, regarding Tiamat. This basis of my theory is this:- that Tiamat is a very modest form of a Far Realm entity that has come into the Material plane of Faerun.
Tiamat made a deal with Asmodeus to stand guard at the gates in the first layer of Baator (Avernus) leading to the rest of the plane. Since Asmodeus can't give his clerics divine energy (he's not a god but a highly powerful Arch-Devil), she does it for him and in exchange can live in peace on Baator.
Now, as for her being a Far Realm entity, my reasoning is thus. In the first Draconomicon, she was not a goddess, but a unique dragon (indeed, the Bloodstone Lands supplement supports this as it has adventurers killing her while she was residing in her lair). It also describes her as just a "little off" in terms of draconic attitude-not necessarily crazy, but certainly not a "normal" draconic mindset by any means. Over time, this has been downplayed, however I sometimes like to go by the original source material for my games, especially with regard to dragonkind. Since all dragons are said to have come from her, they were all evil (until Bahamut arrived-yes, the Draconomicon suggests he was born of evil dragon stock but not evil). This pattern of alignment for her scions, as well as her odd appearance, mindset, and abilities, suggests that she came from some extra dimensional place.
So, now we look at the other descriptions of monstrous deities. The Great Mother of the Beholders is supposedly insane and brings out insanity in all who react with her for too long. For me, she is another entity that portrays a certain Far Realmish aspect; the orginal beholder with her weird form also most likely came from the Realm Outside. It can also be argued that the same king of theory exists for Ilsensine. Now, I may be looking too much for a pattern here, but Tiamat has followed a Far Realm type of evolution and development. She laid all the eggs of the first evil dragons, but couldn't give her entire form (same as with the Great Mother), and is just a few heads shy of a hydra (in other words, mentally unstable)--(read, definitely not from the normal Outer Planes), whereas the Great Mother is definitely still insane. A possible explanation for this, is that Tiamat has been in the multiverse for so long (we're talking many turns of the Great Wheel here) and has somewhat adapted to life in the multiverse, and so lost some (in current edition, all) of her insanity.
It's a little wild I know, but it conforms greatly with a lot of the established material we have on Tiamat.
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2004 : 11:49:36
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Seeing as my slate is practically clean for Tiamat, I can't play Devil's advocate and argue the point with you, but it seems to make sense to me.
but what do you mean by 'modest' form of a far realm entity? |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2004 : 14:02:42
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It's kind of an unofficial ranking really, that most agree represents progressive degrees of corrupting influence from the Far Realm. As an example, think of the plane of Xoriat (if you finally pick up the ECSB MuadDib, you'll know what I'm talking about  ) from the Eberron setting as a toned-down interpretation of the core D&D notion of the Far Realm. A pseudo-natural creature would represent something that has completely been transformed by it's exposure to the Realm Outside. As I stated, Tiamat has spent a significantly long amount of time existing in the multiverse, so her traits that she originally carried over, have faded somewhat.
That's why I consider her a modest form, now.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2004 : 07:32:02
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You're right, I got to read that campaign setting!
Once I do though, I'm sure I'll have something more intelligent to post. 
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MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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Knightcrawler
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2004 : 01:01:35
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| Interesting. I can't fault your logic. Would definitely make for some interesting story twists and turns. Of course you may want to "tweak" her a bit if your going with that. Maybe add the Pseudonatural template to her, the one from Tome and Blood not the one from the ELH as that one would make her way, way too powerful. Also you may want to look at Dungeon Mag #99 for ideas on this as one of the adventures deals with the Far Realms and some of its creatures. |
Knightcrawler
I Am Become Death, Destroyer Of Worlds |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2004 : 02:41:12
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I've now actually decided to use this interpretation of Tiamat as the basis for my next PS novella, rather than a campaign.
'Tis simply too intriguing an idea to just consign to a one-shot adventure. It deserves further expansion, and exploration of the possibilities it allows.
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Taelohn
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2004 : 20:49:37
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The Far Realm theories are interesting (even moreso for the Great Mother and Ilsensine than Tiamat), but I'd have to disagree with the idea of Tiamat granting spells to clerics of Asmodeus.
His poor 3E stats aside, from what I've read about Asmodeus in older material, he was generally considered to have power on par with (or exceeding) that of a greater deity. Infact, given the hints about his true nature (Asmodeus is merely an avatar of a fallen overgod), I'd say he'd be the only one of the Lords of the Nine with actual divine power. The other Lords, while they should be powerful (on par with, but not actually gods), are unable to grant spells to worshippers, and so Asmodeus would do it for them.
I had assumed Asmodeus retains some power over Tiamat from her time as the Lord of the First, and that she would never risk confronting him directly - but their current arrangement is mutually beneficial, so that shouldn't be an issue.
Also, if all dragons came from Tiamat - what role does Io play? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2004 : 06:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
His poor 3E stats aside, from what I've read about Asmodeus in older material, he was generally considered to have power on par with (or exceeding) that of a greater deity. Infact, given the hints about his true nature (Asmodeus is merely an avatar of a fallen overgod), I'd say he'd be the only one of the Lords of the Nine with actual divine power. The other Lords, while they should be powerful (on par with, but not actually gods), are unable to grant spells to worshippers, and so Asmodeus would do it for them.
There have been so many theories suggested about the true nature of the Lord of the Ninth; I've explored a few of them myself here at Candlekeep. I think the one mistake that everyone seems to make is in assuming that Asmodeus is an actual physical entity. Asmodeus (or rather his current incarnation), is something both above and beyond the most power greater deity, but his power is also severly limited. The physical portion of Asmodeus's self (the entity we all normally regard as the Lord of the Ninth) is nothing more and an extension of his consciousness. There is a theory that extends this take a little, in suggesting that Asmodeus great power resides in the essence that makes up the Nine Hells themselves and Asmodeus is just the sentient part of the essence the plane creates in order to communicate with the outside multiverse.
We must also remember that Asmodeus has been around for a very long time -- far longer than he probably even he remembers (since his early memories have probably deteriorated over time). He was ancient when even the first gods who had been brought into existence by the Power Runes where still learning the extent of their powers. So, it can be assumed that he has most likely accumulated a vast portion of multiversal power to himself (maybe it's being channeled into the heart of the Nine Hells). But most of this power is being used to "do other things", like hold his massive form (if you believe the theories put forth in Guide to Hell together, as well as keeping a tight reign (and holding it in check) on the growing powers of the other Lords of the Nine.
It's been said that should Asmodeus ever use the full power he has at his command, the multiverse will literally come apart at it's seams. Only the waning power of Jazirian holds the power of the Lord of the Nine in check. The eternal balance of the planes and the rest of the multiverse rests firmly on the check between the two powers.
quote:
Also, if all dragons came from Tiamat - what role does Io play?
I'll answer this question a little later (I really should be debugging programs...  )
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Tiamat, spawn of the Far Realm
