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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 03:57:14
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We're having a debate over on the WOTC boards, which basically has shifted to: Does divine magic and powers come from the gods themselves, or do the deities just grant the knowledge on how to cast and use divine powers to thier divine casters.
My thoughts based on the text below, is that divine powers and spells come from the deities themselves, via the two Weave conduits. Other's keep saying that deities only grant the knowledge on how to use thier powers and spells to thier divine casters, not the powers and spells themselves.
Page 54 of the FRCS, "Magic not only flows from the source to spellcaster through the Weave." The source here would be deities.
Page 4 of Magic, "....while shamans and clerics drew thier magic directly from the deities."
Page 8 of Magic of Magic of Faerun, "Magic that originates in the power of the deity, usually through prayer, is divine magic....
"Unlike masters of the Art, those who use the Power have no skill in using the Weave. Thier spellcasting knowledge is planted directly in thier minds by deities in response to thier fervent prayers."
Page 11 of Magic, "She cannot block a deity's ability to grant spells to worshippers without negating the ability of each worshipper to draw on the Weave."
Page 8 of Faiths and Pantheons, Under Grant Spells, "A deity grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to that deity. Most deities, can grant spells from the .... once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal's mind until expanded."
Thoughts?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Aug 2004 05:13:18
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 04:31:33
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| I've got to agree with you, kuje31. Clerics pray to their god, and the god in turn directly grants them spells, basically inserting them into the minds of the divine casters. In a way, the god does grant knowledge of how to cast the spells, but it also gives the spell energy itself. While the spells are god-granted, they still use the Weave to function. So; cleric prays; god places spells in mind; cleric uses spell; weave responds to cleric; spell is cast. If a cleric cast spells via knowledge of magic (Spellcraft) he would be a wizard, but his magic comes from understanding of his god, not the Weave, and so is divine. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 04:32:02
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You're absolutely, 100% correct kuje: deities provide the spells directly.
Next time one of them argues with you, tell them to explain why spells that are both arcane and divine do not require spell components in their divine version...
[i.e. Protection from Evil - Arcane version: powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot -diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded; Divine version: divine focus (holy symbol)] |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 04:40:19
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I gave up on the WOTC debate because this poster is adament that divine spells and powers don't come from the deities themselves via the two Weaves, only the knowledge on how to cast divine spells or use divine powers does.
But at least I know I'm not cracked and imaging things. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Aug 2004 04:45:39 |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 04:42:03
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Well, we didn't say that  ....but you are correct here. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 04:46:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
Well, we didn't say that ....but you are correct here.
 You know what I meant. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 06:10:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, friend kuje31, you make me continue to not miss those forums! 
Yeah, I guess I just love the abuse over there. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2004 : 07:51:39
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
We're having a debate over on the WOTC boards, which basically has shifted to: Does divine magic and powers come from the gods themselves, or do the deities just grant the knowledge on how to cast and use divine powers to thier divine casters.
My thoughts based on the text below, is that divine powers and spells come from the deities themselves, via the two Weave conduits. Other's keep saying that deities only grant the knowledge on how to use thier powers and spells to thier divine casters, not the powers and spells themselves.
For the most part, I tend to agree with your perspective on divine magic kuje, if only because it still loosely relates to the way divine magic worked when the Great Wheel was the standard planar cosmology.
quote:
Page 8 of Magic of Magic of Faerun, "Magic that originates in the power of the deity, usually through prayer, is divine magic....
"Unlike masters of the Art, those who use the Power have no skill in using the Weave. Thier spellcasting knowledge is planted directly in thier minds by deities in response to thier fervent prayers."
Page 8 of Faiths and Pantheons, Under Grant Spells, "A deity grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to that deity. Most deities, can grant spells from the .... once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal's mind until expanded."
In fact, these quotes are lifted (and reworded) from early 2e material (which was expanded upon in PS). I see nothing wrong with both assumptions, and while the granting of the knowledge to mortals on how to use divine powers if a tempting assumption, it completely contradicts D&D lore which has been established for more than 20 years. Even the original MotP detailed the source and origin of divine power as being at the behest of a deity.
We also have to remember that while no longer official, PS's maxim of "belief is power" is still true even in the 3e cosmology. It's evident in most of the books you read that have material relating to deities and lesser powers. Belief created the Outer Planes (as most greybeards believe), but it was a deity's belief that brought these planes forth into the multiverse.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Nephilim
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 20:25:24
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OK. this seems to be pretty clear so far but 3e has rules that allow divine spellcasters to invent new divine spells. how does this fit in with the idea that a god supplies both the knowledge and power to a cleric?
And, if a cleric needs no knowledge of a spell, does that mean that any divine spell from any core/FR rulebook is always available to any cleric capable of casting a spell of that level?
And how does the new idea (players guide to Faerun) that only clerics of a certain god have access to special spells fit?
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ooops. |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2004 : 23:27:36
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Perhaps its the deity and not the character that "invents" the spell and places in itno their worshipers head when they pray for new spells. Same for deity specific spells only that deity can place that certain spell into their worshipers mind either they have an agreement with the other deities or the other deities just don't want their followers to use a spell that is associated with another deity.
Added later: For a really good example read the newer Everis Cale books they give a really good description of how Everis prays for his spells from Mask. I remember one occasion describing how Mask "taught" him a new spell he had never heard/seen before. |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
Edited by - Wood Elf Ranger on 09 Oct 2004 23:30:39 |
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Nephilim
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2004 : 00:09:24
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| And another thought. Since Mystra controls all magic on Toril (except shadow weave), surely hhe/she could provide any spell to one of her clerics, even a devine equivalent of a fireball, if she wanted. |
ooops. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 08:40:15
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Err... Nephilim... I'm not exactly sure that the contents of your signature are actually "legal" in terms of promotion here at Candlekeep. You might want to ask either Alaundo or Tethtoril about it just in case...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2004 : 11:34:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Err... Nephilim... I'm not exactly sure that the contents of your signature are actually "legal" in terms of promotion here at Candlekeep. You might want to ask either Alaundo or Tethtoril about it just in case...
Well met
Thank ye Sage. Indeed, Nephilim, please refrain from speaking of such herein, we do not condone disrespect of Realmslore at the library  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Nephilim
Acolyte
United Kingdom
33 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 09:44:20
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| Please accept my apologies. I feel knowledge should be free but I have no desire to bring trouble to Candlekeep. |
ooops. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 05:18:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Nephilim
Please accept my apologies. I feel knowledge should be free but I have no desire to bring trouble to Candlekeep.
{Most} information should be free, I agree. However, the rights of Intellectual Property must also be respected, especially now, at the peak of the Information Age.
As someone who is having a sourcebook published at the moment, I would hate to see all the hard work and effort I've put into creating my work, being reduced to pirated PDF format which would then be available freely (and illegally) via P2P software.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 05:36:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Next time one of them argues with you, tell them to explain why spells that are both arcane and divine do not require spell components in their divine version...
[i.e. Protection from Evil - Arcane version: powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot -diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded; Divine version: divine focus (holy symbol)]
You know, I asked that of a pair of spellcasters, one a cleric and the other a wizard. The cleric said "It's because arcane spells are pale imitations of the true form." The wizard said "Clerics cheat."
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Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 06:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Next time one of them argues with you, tell them to explain why spells that are both arcane and divine do not require spell components in their divine version...
[i.e. Protection from Evil - Arcane version: powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot -diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded; Divine version: divine focus (holy symbol)]
You know, I asked that of a pair of spellcasters, one a cleric and the other a wizard. The cleric said "It's because arcane spells are pale imitations of the true form." The wizard said "Clerics cheat."
Lol. That's a good one, Bookwyrm. A good ol' DnD joke. (sigh) Don't see those everday... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 14:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Nephilim
OK. this seems to be pretty clear so far but 3e has rules that allow divine spellcasters to invent new divine spells. how does this fit in with the idea that a god supplies both the knowledge and power to a cleric?
And, if a cleric needs no knowledge of a spell, does that mean that any divine spell from any core/FR rulebook is always available to any cleric capable of casting a spell of that level?
And how does the new idea (players guide to Faerun) that only clerics of a certain god have access to special spells fit?
Certain gods are more in-tune with certain strands of ... the Weave I guess than others. Thus their portfolios and the limited spheres of influence. The limitations of the deity are the limiations of the cleric.
As for clerical spell creation. I figure that if a clerical gets it into their mind to glorify their god by doing such and such, but doesn't quite know how to accomplish it, the deitiy might inspire them with the necessary knowledge. All of a sudden the right words and gestures just begin to appear in the priests mind, thorugh divine inspiration, just like they might an ancient poet a la the Anglo-Saxon Caedmon author of Caedmon's Hymn ... a native English, hardly even Christian Creation song.
While I'm not all that sure what the process for clerical spell creation is, it might require alot of prayer, introspection, solitude, mediation on scriptures and "theosophy" as part of the "research" process. But in the end, it's the deity that notes the sincerity, that see's its worshipper reaching out, and decides to reach back ... or not.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 23:09:02
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| I actually have a problem with clerics getting access to any spell of the appropriate level. This is why I'm not much in favore of the common house rule for clerics: they get to cast spells spontaneously. I don't think that could be a good rule unless their spell list is limited in some way. How, I don't know. I just find it to be a house rule with a problem. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 12:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I actually have a problem with clerics getting access to any spell of the appropriate level. This is why I'm not much in favore of the common house rule for clerics: they get to cast spells spontaneously. I don't think that could be a good rule unless their spell list is limited in some way. How, I don't know. I just find it to be a house rule with a problem.
We used that in the 2nd edition, although I don't think that it should be used in the third, given that clerics have been so vastly improved from 2nd ed. In fact, I can't wait for my game around here to get back together, because another Lawful Neutral human cleric is just begging to be made (although I've sort of fallen in love with the idea of sorcerors as well).
However, I would propose sort of a 'divine intervention' rule, whereby a cleric can dump one of his memorized spells in exchange for another. Mechanically, I was thinking about a low percentile chance, around 5% or so, of success. I was originally thinking about a Knowledge(religion) and Spellcraft roll against a fair DC, but that wouldn't be much impediment to a high level cleric simply switching his spells at will, since it's not uncommon for a 15th level cleric to have bonuses on those in the +15-20 range. Then again, I suppose limitations could be enforced by the deity itself. If the priest is meddling around with his spell selection too often and causing a lot of work for the god, perhaps he might be stripped of all his spells for a day at a semi-critical moment, as a lesson in humility. Or perhaps the deity will appear in a dream to the PC, and pimpslap him.
As for the epic and researched magic debate, I always figured that the clerical research path always involved a lot of praying and sacrifice. When a god grants a cleric their spells, he's not granting them 'spells', but rather the power to do great things. Therefore, clerical spell research amounts to "Oh mighty god, I beseech you for the power to do something. In your awesome glory, grant upon this humble servant the power to do this thing, and so praise and glorify your name above all others." Appropriate offerings are made, studies are done into the lore of the god, minor services are performed (not questy, but rather just fulfilling bits of the god's ethos whereever you can, as proof of worthiness. Although for epic spells, a short quest might be in order). And at the end of it, the god says "Well done, oh My good and faithful servant." and grants the spell. The cleric should stay out of the lab, unless he's a priest of Gond, or maybe Talona. Until the Realms gets a god of science, that is. And I think it's inevitable that a place like Sembia or Amn (especially Amn. Once it gets over it's current troubles and the incompetant leadership of the Six, they might just be the most powerful nation in Faerun, especially with all the Maztican cash) eventually go down the path of science that we did in the real world. Amn always struck me as the 'France' of the Forgotten Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 16:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
Amn always struck me as the 'France' of the Forgotten Realms.
Oh, man, I so want to start tossing out some flip comments based on this line... But I've no desire to start any troubles, so I shall hold my tongue. |
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Phantom_Lord
Seeker
Pakistan
92 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 16:45:34
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| Isn't Amn suppsed to be like an arabic, farsi, type culture? I'm talking 2e here. |
Ponka! Kaddu! |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 17:37:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Phantom_Lord
Isn't Amn suppsed to be like an arabic, farsi, type culture? I'm talking 2e here.
I don't mean culturally. I mean in that Amn is (or rather was) the wheel that makes the Realms turn. A unitary state with a high population, strong military power, a fair level of technical sophistication and economic development. Amn would be something of a promised land for town and city dwellers. Look at the rest of the Realms. Tethyr, Chessenta and Calimshan are too chaotic (at least in the short term. Tethyr might work out nicely in the next century or so), the Dales are too disorganized, the Heartlands are still very frontier with the exception of Sembia, and in any event the individual cities lack the awesome resources of a united Amn. Waterdeep is an island among the barbarians of the North. Thay is isolated. Aglarond and Thesk are threatened by Thay. Rashmen is barbaric. Semphar, Unther and Murghom are under the control of the ultraconservative Mulhorandi. Chondath and the rest of the Vilhon Reach seem to lack the expansionistic drive that characterizes Amn. Halruaa seems content in it's borders, as does Luiren. The Golden Reach and the Silver Marches all have constant nearby threats which impair them. Dambrath suffers from infighting. Shou Lung and Zakhara are impaired by the same conservatism that hampers empires that have conquered all that there is to conquer. Before the disasters of the last three years, I would have sworn that Amn was on it's way to the top. Even now, the Council of Six is doomed, having forgotten the most basic rules of business, and it's next ruler is almost certain to be some kind of strongman who will drive back the monsters and then proceed to go to war with Tethyr, a war that Tethyr will have a hard time winning.
The only realistic threats to Amnish predominance are Thay and Mulhorand, unquestionably the two strongest political, military, economic and (at least in the case of Thay, less so in the case of Mulhorand) magical forces in Faerun. And of course Sembia, which is like a mini-Amn, but whose star is on the rise. And unlike Amn, Sembia's borders are secured by Cormyr on one side and the Dales on the other. Tethyr is a military threat, but not as serious as the monsters.
Culturally, Amn defies easy classification into an Earth analogue. They're a bit of farsi, and bit of the Mideast, a bit of Italy, a bit of Andalusia. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 18:27:22
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| I dunno, it's hard for one nation to be the hub around which other nations spin when that nation has little influence beyond its own borders... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Oct 2004 18:31:16 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 19:06:31
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On clerics 'inventing' new spells:quote:
The thinking is that priests CAN pray to their gods for anything, and that priest spells are like molds/moulds that gods ‘pour’ power into (usually, due to the thousands of demands upon them at any given time, without paying much attention). As a priest, you can only ask for what you know how to ask for—hence, we have rare, restricted, forgotten, or unknown priest spells; either prayers devised by an individual and not widely disseminated (a la most wizard spells featured in Pages from the Mages), or spells restricted to certain ranks of clergy (e.g. specialty priests, those sent on special holy missions or responsible for temple security, and so on). If a priest prays for a spell inappropriate to his faith, level, or needs, his deity may well ignore him (or perhaps send instead a ‘teaching’ vision or a different magic than requested).
Amn is not the France of the Realms, or an Arabic- or Farsi-like culture. *Everywhere* in the Realms, apart from the kludged-on bits and the distorted Old Empires, defies classification into an Earth analogue, because Ed deliberately didn't make the Realms that way. |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 19:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno, it's hard for one nation to be the hub around which other nations spin when that nation has little influence beyond its own borders...
Well, for the moment. However, back in the day, Amn seemed to be the big show in the west, with it's influence being felt all the way up to Waterdeep, and down in Tethyr. Due to recent mismanagement, Amn has fallen in stature, to be sure, but the potential is still there. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2018 : 17:43:57
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Great Reader Kuje,
Did you ever find additional sources on this that gave even more clarity?
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
We're having a debate over on the WOTC boards, which basically has shifted to: Does divine magic and powers come from the gods themselves, or do the deities just grant the knowledge on how to cast and use divine powers to thier divine casters.
My thoughts based on the text below, is that divine powers and spells come from the deities themselves, via the two Weave conduits. Other's keep saying that deities only grant the knowledge on how to use thier powers and spells to thier divine casters, not the powers and spells themselves.
Page 54 of the FRCS, "Magic not only flows from the source to spellcaster through the Weave." The source here would be deities.
Page 4 of Magic, "....while shamans and clerics drew thier magic directly from the deities."
Page 8 of Magic of Magic of Faerun, "Magic that originates in the power of the deity, usually through prayer, is divine magic....
"Unlike masters of the Art, those who use the Power have no skill in using the Weave. Thier spellcasting knowledge is planted directly in thier minds by deities in response to thier fervent prayers."
Page 11 of Magic, "She cannot block a deity's ability to grant spells to worshippers without negating the ability of each worshipper to draw on the Weave."
Page 8 of Faiths and Pantheons, Under Grant Spells, "A deity grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to that deity. Most deities, can grant spells from the .... once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal's mind until expanded."
Thoughts?
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Divine Magic
