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Vikramaditya
Acolyte
15 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 18:31:46
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Warning....Major WotSQ Spoilers Ahead!....
I've read all five volumes of WotSQ, and I cannot understand one fundamental point in Extinction (vol4) and Annihilation (vol5). Why does the party need the ship of chaos to reach the Demonweb pits? We already know that:
1) The Demonweb pits cannot be physically reached via gate
2) The Demonweb pits can be reached via the astral
3) Pharaun does know how to cast Gate, which he uses to pull Belshazu from the Abyss.
Assuming the party physically wants to reach the abyss, (and as Pharaun does not know the Astral Projection spell anyway) why doesn't Pharaun just gate the party to the Plane of Infinite Portals, and descend to the DemonWeb pits? As she mentions, Quenthel has been there before, and she knows the right portal to use once in the Abyss. Can a mage not cast gate and enter it himself? Why search around the entire underdark looking for a gate to the Abyss, which after all, is infinite - who knows which dark corner a gate could lead to?
Also, in the epic battle between Gromph and Dyrr, (and even by Pharaun in Annihilation, who seems to know at least 2 9th lvl spells – Gate and Wail of the Banshee) why does no one use TimeStop? The most famous 9th level spell, and it doesn’t find any mention in a book about high level mages fighting to the death? Or did I miss it somewhere?
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 18:45:53
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Youre quite right. I found quite a few holes when reading this novel. it all seemed a little pointless in places and often I was thinking "why not simply do this\that?"
I think when having a mage battle between two very powerful mages, as we saw with Gromph and Dyrr, it needs to be thought out extremely well, remembering the type of spells they will have to hand.
I found the first 60% or so of the book a little tedious, not my favorite WotSQ novel, but overall not bad. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 19:27:20
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Not having read WotSQ, I don't know if the books are amongst those still referring to the Demonwebs Pits as being part of the Abyss. If so, then I don't understand either.
However, the Demonweb Pits aren't officially still part of the Abyss (see PtGF, if you dare). Someone told me that the WotSQ cleared tis up, but apparantly not.
On the other hand, the Demonweb Pits is stated as having portals to the Abyss, so they could have gone through those. But... trudging through the Abyss might be dangerous.
Basically, I don't know! Maybe the answer is - the Ship of Chaos made for better story-goodness. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 19:43:53
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Granted our area of expertise in the planes is not as... grand as The Sage's however we shalt attempt to provide our own little thoughts on the matter of using the Ship or Chaos. So let us begin...
First is the Subject of the Demonweb pits... they art both part of and separate from the abyss it seems... MotP states that Lolth's domain is upon the 666th layer of the abyss, however a quick glance at the Cosmology of Toril in the FRCS says the Demonweb Pits tis a separate realm but maintains several portals to the abyss. It also states that it tis the realm of the Drow Pantheon. If this is the case then lolth shares the realm with other Drow gods but can seal off her level.
Throwing the previous notion of the Demonweb Pits being separate from the Abyss, out; Lolth still controls the 666th layer of the abyss then... and if that tis her home, then she wields absolute power over it. Effectively sealing it shut, we figure most of Lolth followers who hath died hath not gone to the Demonweb pits but art stranded upon the Fugue Plain awaiting to be taken by her... Like what happened in the Time of Troubles.
Also there art dangers in physically being in the Plane of Infinite Portals (unless thou art refereing to Sigil... but that is another topic for another board , we art assuming thou art refering to the Astral Plane). Death in the plane of infinite portals is not permenant if thou art in astral form... however there is always the risk of the silver cord being severed (which results in physical death). Wandering the Astral plane physically could be a bad idea if one encounters hotiles or a the terrifying Astral Deadnought. Assuming all goes well and they find a portal to the abyss one never knows what layer one might end up on. Not all allow life as some are seas of endless water, air of caustic acid... even and eternal cesspool of slime. Seven out of ten portals on the astral art one way... if thou jumps in head first to a portal... one may find that the place on the otherside causes death within seconds and may prevent the casting of spells.
The Ship of Chaos is by far a safer means (we would think) of travelling protecting it's crew from the ravages of hostile planes. Plus it can be guided to the plane of choice... the shortest distance between two points is a point, not a line or two. since the time it takes to go from A to B to C or even A to B can be too long to allow the trip to be completed.
On the topic of Timestop... We could offer the choice that it's actually a cheesy spell but many wouldn't like that.. however we can offer the thought that messing with time can prove hazardous to one's health if done too often. And if something should go wrong the energies of Timestop may result in a Time loop or a Time Wrinkle. Messing with time (even to gain a slight advantage) can be far too dangerous to be used commonly.. and there tis also the risk of causing a Time Whirlpool as well... Basically Timestop is too risky a spell to use... after all even a lich caught in a Time Whirlpool wilt be ground into dust as it's bones art blasted by the winds and sands of time... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 05 Aug 2004 19:45:00 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 20:22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Not having read WotSQ, I don't know if the books are amongst those still referring to the Demonwebs Pits as being part of the Abyss. If so, then I don't understand either.
However, the Demonweb Pits aren't officially still part of the Abyss (see PtGF, if you dare). Someone told me that the WotSQ cleared tis up, but apparantly not.
It did but it didn't. :) See according to the novels Lloth DID reside in the 66th layer of the Abyss, which is her Realm of the Demonweb Pits, however she then moved from that realm to the Plane of the Demonweb Pits.
Now the thing is, did she move from FR's Abyss or did she move from 'Hawk's Abyss? We don't know. However, according to Rich Baker and Sean K. Reynolds, the material in the Player's Guide and the FRCS is based on the belief that the planes for FR have ALWAYS been that way, thus how did she move from her layer to a plane that was supposed to ALWAYS exist but didn't until 1372/73...... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Freakboy
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 23:48:57
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First, on the issue of spells....
We don't know for sure Phauran uses Gate to bring Belshazu from the Abyss. It could just as easily have been Greater Planar Binding insomuch as Phauran bothered scribing a summoning circle in the ice first. Second, Phauran doesn't use Wail of the Banshee against Belshazu, it is Greater Shout. The implication of the effect was that the sound bruised then tore to bits the demon. Wail of the Banshee is a death effect, but not one that necessarily manifests as the sound bludgeoning and then tearing its victim apart.
On the issue of the Gate thing....
As an old teacher of mine used to say about writing fiction, "never let reality stand in the way of a good plot device". Sure, Pharaun could have gated them in, but we know that he can't from Condemnation when he has to rely on Tzirik to take the party to the Demonwebs via the astral plane. Second, even if he knew the spell, we also know that Lolth has barred her realm from any direct attempt to transfer there via gate and similar magic as evidenced by the fact that Quenthel demanded that Tzirik try to plane shift them there before the whole astral plane thing. Anyway, forgeting all of that, the Ship of Chaos makes for a more interesting story than just Gating in, don't you think? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 23:49:18
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| Has the Ship of Chaos been detailed anywhere? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Vikramaditya
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 01:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Freakboy
First, on the issue of spells....
We don't know for sure Phauran uses Gate to bring Belshazu from the Abyss. It could just as easily have been Greater Planar Binding insomuch as Phauran bothered scribing a summoning circle in the ice first.
Thanks for the correction. You are right, I came home and checked the PHB, based on the summoning circle, and the intent of the spell - to summon and bind a powerful outsider, it is greater planar binding.
quote:
Originally posted by Freakboy
Second, Phauran doesn't use Wail of the Banshee against Belshazu, it is Greater Shout. The implication of the effect was that the sound bruised then tore to bits the demon.
You're right again, I think. Checked the FRCS. Plus the wall around Belshazu also crumbles as described in the spell..though 10d6 on a negated save appears very little against a powerful glabrezu..artistic license, I guess . For someone who loves playing wizards, I sure don't know a lot of the spells in the PhB..Thanks for the clarification.
quote:
Originally posted by Freakboy
Sure, Pharaun could have gated them in, but we know that he can't from Condemnation when he has to rely on Tzirik to take the party to the Demonwebs via the astral plane.
I don't have the article giving Pharaun's stats from Dungeon, but I'm guessing he's not Lvl17 at this point, and so cannot cast Astral Projection as a 9th lvl spell..
quote:
Originally posted by Freakboy
Second, even if he knew the spell, we also know that Lolth has barred her realm from any direct attempt to transfer there via gate and similar magic as evidenced by the fact that Quenthel demanded that Tzirik try to plane shift them there before the whole astral plane thing.
I meant that Pharaun could have gated the party to the plane of infinite portals, and Quenthel could then have lead them to the correct pit leading to the DemonWeb (which she had to anyway, even as they used the ship of Chaos). But now I understand why this discussion is redundant. Pharaun could not have cast Gate if he did not know the spell, and was not Lvl17. The only other option then is to find a portal/transport, which is the Ship of Chaos.
quote:
Originally posted by Freakboy
the Ship of Chaos makes for a more interesting story than just Gating in, don't you think
I totally concur. As a wizard fanboy, Pharaun is the man. Anything that makes him take centerstage.. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 02:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Has the Ship of Chaos been detailed anywhere?
I'd use the ship that is in the Planescape adventure called Into the Abyss.....
I think they have been converted for 3e in one of the WOTC books but I might be misremembering. I know there is a few 3rd party 3/3.5 books that has some thing similiar. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 02:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Vikramaditya
I don't have the article giving Pharaun's stats from Dungeon, but I'm guessing he's not Lvl17 at this point, and so cannot cast Astral Projection as a 9th lvl spell..
Wiz14/Acm3 in a Dragon Magazine article after the first WOTSQ novel. |
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Vikramaditya
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 04:27:17
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Wiz14/Acm3 in a Dragon Magazine article after the first WOTSQ novel.
Hmm..Does he cast a 9th lvl spell in any of the WotSQ novels? I can't recall any instances.. |
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Freakboy
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 06:06:33
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I can think of several level 8's....
Incendiary Cloud (Insurrection)
Bigby's Clenched Fist (Insurrection)
Greater Planar Binding (Extinction)
Just to name a few, however I can't remember a ninth level spell. It seems like he uses Bigby's Crushing hand somewhere in either Extinction or Annihilation but I can't be sure. I will have to look into that later.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 06:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Vikramaditya
Hmm..Does he cast a 9th lvl spell in any of the WotSQ novels? I can't recall any instances..
I don't recall any either. Alas, I may have been too dazzled by the charming personality to focus on the spells. My shortcoming, show me a pretty face, who dresses well, with magical abilities and my knees go weak. |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 13:10:01
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Thanks for the info Kuje.
Seems like this is another case where my 'Planes in both cosmologies at once' theory will come in handy. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 05:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Has the Ship of Chaos been detailed anywhere?
I'd use the ship that is in the Planescape adventure called Into the Abyss.....
I think they have been converted for 3e in one of the WOTC books but I might be misremembering. I know there is a few 3rd party 3/3.5 books that has some thing similiar.
I don't think they have. You may be thinking about the Astral skiffs that have been detailed in both Dragon, and two third-party accessories.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sanavin
Acolyte
Finland
26 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 10:11:33
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| There's at least some kind of stats for Astral Skiff and Living Astral Ship in Planar Handbook. |
"Never test the depth of the water with both feet." |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 00:41:47
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Isn't the Ship of Chaos detailed in one of the Planescape boxes? I know there's a picture of it in one of the maps. Isn't the Ship of Chaos its own plane? I forget.
I don't like the Ship of Chaos. Every moment Annihilation turns to the events on the ship, I find myself bored. The image of Pharaun summoning mane after mane to be fed to the ship is somehow silly to me. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 01:17:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Isn't the Ship of Chaos detailed in one of the Planescape boxes? I know there's a picture of it in one of the maps. Isn't the Ship of Chaos its own plane? I forget.
I quote myself from earlier in this thread, "I'd use the ship that is in the Planescape adventure called Into the Abyss.....
I think they have been converted for 3e in one of the WOTC books but I might be misremembering. I know there is a few 3rd party 3/3.5 books that has some thing similiar." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 04:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I quote myself from earlier in this thread, "I'd use the ship that is in the Planescape adventure called Into the Abyss.....
What are you kuje31, the invisible scribe? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2004 : 05:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I quote myself from earlier in this thread, "I'd use the ship that is in the Planescape adventure called Into the Abyss.....
What are you kuje31, the invisible scribe?
Evidently. :( Feels ignored heheheeh. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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monch9
Seeker
Poland
67 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2004 : 03:33:36
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There's a little sidebar in the Manual of the Planes regarding the ships of chaos. You can find it in the Abyss's section.
Monch |
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Why use the Ship of Chaos to reach the Abyss?
