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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2004 : 23:03:17
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Is Caladnei in over her head? It's difficult to believe a mere 11th level sorcerer can replace Vangerdahast. In all of Corymy, could Vangey find no better mage to take his place? He may have admired her character, and in time she may be his equal, but even with the magical items she carries she's no match to a wizard of real power. Many of the War Wizards must be her magical superior; can they respect someone they likely see as an upstart.
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 00:20:58
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Well, Caladnei did prove herself during the crisis in Cormyr. Also, she is the daughter of Elminster so that alone proves that she will also have considerable arcane skills too. As for the war wizards, yes there are many that are more powerful than her. I remember there was something here in Candlekeep about these War Wizards...
Anyways, most of these high-level war wizards are good characters that have no real aspiration to rise any higher. They are all quite satisfied with their own positions in Cormyr and wouldn't risk fighting for the title of Royal Magician, especailly since Cormyr is at its weakest right now. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 00:24:41
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| That's true. What about foreign wizards? Caladnei's powers may grow in time (and if she follows her predecessors' path, she has a lot of time on her hands), but for now she could be slain by an ambitious Red Wizard or Zhentarim. I suppose her caches of magic might augment her abilities enough, but it still seems unwise. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 02:35:48
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There's the simple truth that killing Caladnei will, at the very least, make Elminster quite unhappy. I daresay I have never, ever, seen Elminster in a state of anger in his last thousand years. I don't know any Red Wizard who would willingly call down Elminster's wrath, which would most likely be accompanied by The Simbul's wrath, and Storm's wrath, soon followed by the wrath of Cormyr itself...
It's funny how Elminster has single-handedly placed his offspring into power in Cormyr. He's part of the magical elite. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 02:56:25
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Caladnei appears very much over her head, with one simple exception that has not been considered: the powers, abilities, and knowledge available to Mages Royal have never been detailed. Although she may be but an 11th-level sorcerer (and a 15th level character), the lack of a "Royal Magician" template in the game doesn't mean that one might not truly exist, absent anyone's knowledge...
To correct an error: Caladnei is not an offspring or descendant of Elminster. For who actually is, check the Elminster's Daughter thread, but be assured that Caladnei doesn't share any blood with Elminster. Certain other important wizards, however, are another matter....
The Candlekeep detailing of the numbers and levels of the War Wizards isn't especially accurate, based as it is on so much fabricated information, but the point remains that the Lord High Wizard (or Mage Royal, or Royal Magician) is not merely the most capable spellcaster in all the realm; it is a position of counsel and influence, not sheer power.
None of this is to say that Elminster doesn't keep a very close eye on all the Mages Royal, because, frankly, he does. He wants them to succeed on their own, but Caladnei will be at least a decade or two before she feels truly confident and comfortable in the role. Cormyr may be weakened, but it is still far stronger than when a rebel prince sundered the nation in two, when royal daughters ruled from shadows, or when Boldovar went truly mad.
In short, it is the perfect time for certain young mages to learn to be wise old archmages before the real fun begins. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 02:58:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
That's true. What about foreign wizards? Caladnei's powers may grow in time (and if she follows her predecessors' path, she has a lot of time on her hands), but for now she could be slain by an ambitious Red Wizard or Zhentarim. I suppose her caches of magic might augment her abilities enough, but it still seems unwise.
Sourcemaster2, then that's like asking about Azoun V or about any other heads of state who aren't experienced in combat. If these people can survive Zhentish assassins or Red Wizards, Caladnei would surely be able to as an arcane user of considerable power. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 03:58:37
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| Hmm...the idea of a Mage Royal template is intriguing. As for the heads of state, most aren't really expected to defend themselves (although some can and do), whereas a Mage Royal is. I guess she does have time to learn and fit into her new role, and she has done well so far. I suppose Vangey wouldn't have made his choice without considering her talents and, more importantly, her potential, so she might grow into a formidable mage (and Mage Royal) in time. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 06:10:21
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I think perhaps we as gamers have a sort of "D&D info bias" when it comes to characters. I believe that it is folly to equate someone's stats and character level to their total potential as a character.
Let us not forget that arguably the most well-travelled person in the Realms is a mere 5th level Wizard, and that the woman who leveled Zhentil Keep was perhaps character level 5 or thereabouts (spellfire kinda makes class a moot point, doesn't it?)... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 30 Jul 2004 06:11:37 |
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Panador
Acolyte
Austria
28 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 07:52:11
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btw. What about Zenthil Keep? Has it been rebuild or what? I mean after the Time of Troubles Zenthil Keep was more or less destroyed because of Cyric's force of dragons, giants, orcs etc.
Who rebuilt it? |
*Still thinking about a signature...* |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 07:57:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Panador
btw. What about Zenthil Keep? Has it been rebuild or what? I mean after the Time of Troubles Zenthil Keep was more or less destroyed because of Cyric's force of dragons, giants, orcs etc.
Who rebuilt it?
Per the FRCS, the Zhents rebuilt it. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 14:11:08
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| I don't see the Mage Royal being a template. What natural, divine or supernatural force governs that office? If Mage Royal is anything other than a title, it would be a prestige class. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 15:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I don't see the Mage Royal being a template. What natural, divine or supernatural force governs that office? If Mage Royal is anything other than a title, it would be a prestige class.
Mystra? A mystical, ungoverned connection with the land? The inheritance of a mantle passed from powerful elven mages and their human consorts to their descendants? All of these are important--and accurate--influences to consider over the Mages Royal, whether or not they appear blatantly in text to batter so many DMs over the head.
Royal Magician certainly could be a prestige class, but it would be one so prestigious as to make its inclusion in text positively useless, as only 6 persons in all history have held it (assuming the class is "Royal Magician of Cormyr" or somesuch).
Either way, the choice is either between a largely useless prestige class and a too-tempting template, which, like the 'Chosen' templates, raises more headaches than actually writing the template could ever bring. |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 19:41:57
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| Whatever the source of the Mage Royals' power, they definitely have an edge over an ordinary mage. Template, prestige class, secret spells or items; they all give an advantage that raises them above others. With that augmentation, Caladnei has access to stronger magic than she would otherwise, and will probably advance quickly. Besides, Vangey's still around to help in times of need. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Lauzoril
Seeker
Finland
71 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 19:59:14
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Generally, I think it's just the reaction to something new as far as Caladnei is concerned. When most of us got introduced to the Realms, we more or less stumbled into the novels where Vangey was introduced and we saw him as an old and established powerful mage.
When things suddenly change for the long time Realms veterans, accepting Caladnei becomes difficult but not impossible (at least not for me). To see a new character in a established state of power feels strange but like all new things, it takes time to adjust.
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"Death to the enemies of Bane."
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2004 : 20:35:53
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When people first objected to some of the changes in the FRCS, Sean Reynolds insisted that they were judging too soon and that some of what was done made sense that wasn't immediately apparent. Maybe so, but I'm yet to see what's good about the insertion of Caladnei. (Though Ed has adapted to it smoothly, and it's a potential source of ideas and Realmslore, as anything else is.)
I don't care about her character level, it's the lack of knowledge of Cormyr's politics and magic that make her sudden appearance peculiar. I agree the Mages Royal almost certainly have yet-unrevealed powers. |
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Panador
Acolyte
Austria
28 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 14:33:48
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| Since I don't play PnP D&D I know absolutely nothing about Caladnei's stats, but as far as I've seen Caladnei in the novels - which was only once, in Elminster's Daughter - she seems kinda immature. I also wonder why Vangerdahast made her his successor, I believe Laspeera would be more fitting. |
*Still thinking about a signature...* |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 20:50:53
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| Panador, you gotta read the Cormyr series. Caladnei proves herself to Cormyr and Vangerdahast why she should have that position. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 21:57:28
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Panador, you gotta read the Cormyr series. Caladnei proves herself to Cormyr and Vangerdahast why she should have that position.
Hmm... I read the whole Cormyr trilogy, and I do not recall Caladnei. All I remember was Vangerdahast being stuck with a huge iron crown on his head, then he kind of wanders away for no obvious reason. Don't hesitate to refresh my memory though, it's been a while since I read this series. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 23:11:27
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| There are a lot of confusing events in the Cormyr saga... Especially in Beyond the High Road and a certain 1/2 of Death of the Dragon. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 23:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Panador, you gotta read the Cormyr series. Caladnei proves herself to Cormyr and Vangerdahast why she should have that position.
Hmm... I read the whole Cormyr trilogy, and I do not recall Caladnei. All I remember was Vangerdahast being stuck with a huge iron crown on his head, then he kind of wanders away for no obvious reason. Don't hesitate to refresh my memory though, it's been a while since I read this series.
That was more-or-less my impression from the series. I kept looking for her since the FRCS said she played a large role, and what I found was ... less than impressive, if I remember right. It's also been a while since I read the series.
(Though, in campaigns I'm working on, she wouldn't exist as such; the other DM has control of Cormyr and vecinity, and while Turmish is under my perview, best to not rely on the FRCS for it  )
Lysander |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2004 : 02:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Hmm... I read the whole Cormyr trilogy, and I do not recall Caladnei.
I don't recall her in the series either. The first reference to her, and a vague one at that, that I recall is in Vangerdahast's write up in the "After the Dragon" article on Dragon Annual #5. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2004 : 06:02:54
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In game products, Caladnei's first recognizable appearance is FRCS 3E. It may be her to whom Ed refers in his "After the Dragon" article, but we can never be sure just whom it was the Old Snoop was snoopin' on.
In fiction, Caladnei first appears in The Siege, book 2 of Troy Denning's Return of the Archwizards trilogy. She also appears toward the beginning of The Sorcerer (book 3), and in Ed's short story "When Shadows Come Seeking a Throne" in the Realms of Shadow anthology, before being used as a more fully-developed character in Elminster's Daughter.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2004 : 06:11:11
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| Hmmm... seems my memory is incorrect. Sorry, way too much stuff going on at once right now. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Caladnei Problem
