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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 22:23:09
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Do the standard evil races (chromatic dragons, beholders, illithids, and so on) have any large group or cities that are good-aligned? Are any of them of a fixed alignment, or are they morally neutral like most races?
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 01:28:38
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As far as I've known, Chromatic Dragons are evil period. As Metallic dragons are good, period. This has been stated in most of the sourcebooks dealing with dragons I think. I'm pretty sure Beholder's alignment is fixed as evil aswell. Although I could be mistaken with beholders. Illithids I have no clue on, I've only ever known of evil ones, but I don't recall hearing if they're fixed as evil creatures...
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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SoulFlayer
Acolyte
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 01:39:55
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in the "Underdark" book, on the entry of mindflayers (pg. 20) it mentions that:
quote:
Due to diet, if nothing else, most mind flayers are simply incapable of becoming truly good, but the occaisonal exceptional individual who restricts its feeding to the brains of nonsentient creatures might become neutral, or even good in extreme cases.
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 01:46:39
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| A ring of sustenance could be useful for such an illithid. Thanks, SoulFlayer. Are any beings truly predetermined, alignment-wise? |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 02:02:48
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I'm pretty much sure dragons are. Other than that. I dunno.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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SoulFlayer
Acolyte
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 02:04:26
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Perhaps that would be a good way to avoid having to eat another's brains.
As far as any creatures being predetermined, I'd say that, as long as they are sentient, there are always exceptions. I doubt you'd find a "good" gelatinous cube, or the like. Then again, does alingment really work for 'mindless' creatures? *shrugs*
Or was the question could have been rethorical? |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 02:08:54
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| That's what I was hoping. I'm working on good or neutral members of "evil" races for Terrail, and illithids are always interesting. Are there any known beholders (individual or community) that are good, or at least neutral? |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 02:16:58
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I agree with SoulFlayer. As long as a creature has a mind with which it can make a choice, the alignment given in the creature's description is optional.
Having creatures "break the mold" is a favorite topic amongst some authors.  |
The Wanderer |
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SoulFlayer
Acolyte
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 02:19:25
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Well, I can't find anything in reference to beholder society, in that regard, so I don't really know of any good/neutral beholders/beholderkin. Would make an interesting character though.
The closest thing I can think of is the Beholder Gaurdian in BG2, Saughin city. I don't know if it was a non-evil beholder, if it it is relevant at all.
My opinion is that a creature would only be evil because of the way it was brought up (Something of the whole 'is a drow born evil, or raised as such' idea in some of the Drizzt books.), so I don't see why you couldn't have a neutral or good beholder, but I would guess its at least as rare, if not more so, as a like-minded Illithid.
My thoughts, anyway. |
Edited by - SoulFlayer on 24 Jul 2004 02:21:00 |
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 02:29:22
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I forget what anthology it was, but another good example would be the Salvatore story about the good Goblin.
As it pertains to beholders, I've never heard of one. But if you are running the game, you make the rules :). |
The Wanderer |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 03:08:14
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Well met!
In my experience good and evil is often a matter of perspective. Clearly, if a creatuer feeds upon us humans us humans will inevitably regard it as evil. Of course, such creatures might very well be capable of great kindness and regard for others of its kind ... which is hardly a definitive quality of evil.
Looking at the roots of the words ... the native Anglo-Saxon word "good" goes back to a root meaning "to unite" (in organic or macro-organic wholeness) and by extension "what is acceptable for (a) society". In contrast, the term evil goes back to a root meaning "to exceed due limits" (of acceptable) and is was of old related to illness or other forces that break down organic or macro-organic wholeness.
Even the D&D definition of goodness would seem to indicate folk who are social and regardful of others (if not socially outgoing) as opposed to anti-social and disregardful of others (if not socially inept).
Thus, one would think that for any community to survive it must have an inkling of goodness amongst its own.
This has always been my pet-peeve about the alignment system. |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 03:15:44
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| Okay, now this is going from memory... But Steven Schend dropped the Rock of Bral into Realmspace (the Tears of Selūne, specifically), and there's a LN beholder there named Large Luigi. He's a barkeep, as I recall. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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SoulFlayer
Acolyte
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 03:43:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
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Thus, one would think that for any community to survive it must have an inkling of goodness amongst its own.
Perhaps a tolerance at best. (typical) Drow seem quite devoid of compassion or kindness, a society where only 'the strongest and most useful survive, and only as long as they are strong or useful'.
Beholders are also (I assume, considering their deity has 'tyranny' as part of her portfolio) less than kind to each other, and can coexist as they do, because it is more beneficial than striking out on one's own? But, as I said, I know little about beholders.
Illithid have a sort of communal mind (if I recall correctly) so I'd guess they're a bit different in that regard, I suppose. |
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brjr2001
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 04:08:04
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| well some do have city's but since it isn't the norm for evil races they will live in like hamlets or small towns |
on second thought lets not go to candlekeep it is a silly place |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 04:13:32
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| In case anyone's interested, I added a good-aligned illithid to Terrail. Since I don't think a group of good mind flayers exists, I used a more creative (or at least I like to think so) method. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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SoulFlayer
Acolyte
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 04:18:09
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| Just wondering. What is Terrail? |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 04:22:11
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| For a while now, I've been posting information on a city I'm developing. It's posted in the Sages of Realmslore section of the forum. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
Edited by - Sourcemaster2 on 24 Jul 2004 04:22:58 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 04:37:25
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quote:
Originally posted by SoulFlayer
Just wondering. What is Terrail?
Try this link. It should take you to the thread Sourcemaster2 was referring to in his earlier post. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 04:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, now this is going from memory... But Steven Schend dropped the Rock of Bral into Realmspace (the Tears of Selūne, specifically), and there's a LN beholder there named Large Luigi. He's a barkeep, as I recall.
I've also heard that there are several LN beholders "living" in Gzemnid's Realm, in the Outlands. However this could just be pure screed, as they are said to serve the Beholder God of Deception in every way, shape, and form. Their supposed alignment, could be nothing more than a ploy to lure those bloods who aren't well-laned about the dark of the place, into their well stocked human-pantries.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 12:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, now this is going from memory... But Steven Schend dropped the Rock of Bral into Realmspace (the Tears of Selūne, specifically), and there's a LN beholder there named Large Luigi. He's a barkeep, as I recall.
Large Luigi is an exception. according to "SJR2 Realmspace", "he is one of the few beholders who were able to ascend the spindle to gain complete knowledge of everything. [...]"
i still can not come to grips with that, especially "complete" and "everything". seems to me that he knows more than even the gods themselves...
but i digress, sorry. fact is that he“s lawful neutral, but wasn“t born that way. there“s a conclusive explanation for his alignment change and he is a good tool for me as dm, so i don“t complain. 
the better part of the beholders should be evil, though. it wuold be kind of a credibility gap, should pc encounter good beings from races known to be evil around every corner... |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 13:58:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
That's what I was hoping. I'm working on good or neutral members of "evil" races for Terrail, and illithids are always interesting. Are there any known beholders (individual or community) that are good, or at least neutral?
Yup, yup! Check out the Underdark web enhancement for an example of a truly unusual, good beholder/illithid pair. There's also a LN, turning good, illithid of Ch'Chitl in Underdark.
And it ain't Realms, but the Book of Exalted Deeds has a good-aligned illithid monk NPC.
AND, there was a good-aligned red dragon (or half-red/half-blue dragon - I can't remember which) of Myth Drannor - see Fall of Myth Drannor or Cormanthyr. I can't remember which. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 24 Jul 2004 14:00:15 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 16:02:43
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| The predestined-alignment monster types are something I don't rather like. The alignment system is a bit too restricted -- there really should be twenty-seven alignments, not just nine. One of the things I like about Eberron is the fact that alignments aren't as restrictive there, so there can be some good red dragons and evil gold dragons. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2004 : 20:50:37
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Indeed, I think this thread unto itself shows how little of the books I yet possess and how many I truely need to read yet. My library has been expanding rapidly, however there's only so many gold coins to go around, and I'm spending them as rapidly as they come in. I hope that by the end of this year, it will have at least quadrupled in size, and I'll be considerably closer to having the majority of the tomes instead of the minority.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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chosenofvelsharoon
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2004 : 22:39:57
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It's not realms specific, but the 2e draconomicon talked about famous dragons that defied alignment (predominantly chaotics, such as copper are not always good and i think there was a ng silver). I haven't had a chance to read the 3e draconomicon.
Also if i recall there was a rogue bronze mentioned in the cult of the dragon source book... named errant pg 53. and a topaz dracolich on the next page.
It seems that there are exeptions to every rule.
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~chosen of Velsharoon
"and naught shall be left, saved shattered throwns with none to rule them but the dead." |
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brjr2001
Learned Scribe
106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 00:34:02
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| im sorry did i hear about good illithids, i would assume that since they are a evil race and they are telepathic they would know good illithids and kill them before they caused too much damage. (hmmm that would make a good book a good illithid) |
on second thought lets not go to candlekeep it is a silly place |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 01:21:24
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Well the good illithid in question is on the run, hunted by his people. So yes.
But illithids would be able to conceal their thoughts from other illithids. I've always loved illithids, but I think that a book that involves them more than in a cameo role would dispel some of their mystery. And I think a book with a good illithid would be a really bad idea, as it would be very Drizztish and probably would be unsatisfying to a large majority of readers. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 02:12:29
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I agree with Sarelle that it'd be a rehashed theme in trying to create a story about a "good" Illithid. Sure it may be hunted by it's people, exiled etc but it still an Illithid.
I can't see anything benign about a race of beings that feeds off other intelligent creatures brains while they are still alive. What a hideous way to die, having your brain eating by a tentacled grey thing 
But saying that, they make very interesting & complex characters and it'd be intriguing to learn more about their society and ways via a story focused on a particular Illithid. |
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 04:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by chosenofvelsharoon
It's not realms specific, but the 2e draconomicon talked about famous dragons that defied alignment (predominantly chaotics, such as copper are not always good and i think there was a ng silver).
No offense, but how is a Forgotten Realms sourcebook not Realms-specific?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2004 : 05:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No offense, but how is a Forgotten Realms sourcebook not Realms-specific?
Thanks for being brave and asking. That one threw me a bit as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2004 : 17:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by chosenofvelsharoon
It's not realms specific, but the 2e draconomicon talked about famous dragons that defied alignment (predominantly chaotics, such as copper are not always good and i think there was a ng silver).
The 2e Draconomnicon went into a fair amount of detail on the draconic afterlife. They become spirit dragons, called animae, guided to the Outer Planes by Chronepsis (or possibly his proxies). They go to the plane of their alignment or the plane in which their deity resides, and they slowly lose their memories at the rate of one year per year. A dragon who is resurrected after a year's time in the afterworld will have a year's worth of memory lost to the Astral Plane, and won't gain that year back. A dragon spirit who loses all of its memories becomes a purified draconic archetype, ready for use as a proxy of one of the dragon gods or for reincarnation.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2004 : 18:33:38
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I think the 'monsters are people too' theme is trite, tedious, and genre-inappropriate pretty much in its entirety. In the Realms good and evil are not a matter of perspective, they're absolute cosmic forces.
You actually could argue that FOR1 is non-Realms-specific, given how little regard its authors paid to the established continuity and mode of the Realms. |
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The Good in the Bad and the Ugly
