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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 14:36:42
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| I do feel incredibly sorry for WotC, in one respect - their staff must have a terrible time trying to think up new slants on names - male and female - for each new LA+0/LA+1 race they put into these (IMO tedious) tomes. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 15:50:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I do feel incredibly sorry for WotC, in one respect - their staff must have a terrible time trying to think up new slants on names - male and female - for each new LA+0/LA+1 race they put into these (IMO tedious) tomes.
I take it that's a no as for whether or not you will be purchasing this tome?
Any scribes out there definitely planning on purchasing this item? |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 15:58:28
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Oh, it's another bloody race!
I might. I probably won't-as my copy of the Complete Book of Halflings and Gnomes will likely be much more useful. Which is why I picked up the Complete Wizard's, Priest's and Thief's Handbooks last night-I'm happy to see something good in those areas, even if it is dated. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 17:26:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Which is why I picked up the Complete Wizard's, Priest's and Thief's Handbooks last night
Found another fifty?  |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 17:42:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Which is why I picked up the Complete Wizard's, Priest's and Thief's Handbooks last night
Found another fifty?
No, actually. My FLGS had them at a really nice price-$30 got me them, the Arms and Equipment Guide(2e), the Celtic Campaign Sourcebook, and Dragon #83. All in good to near-mint condition too-but what do I care, I'm not a collector! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 18:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
No, actually. My FLGS had them at a really nice price-
A nice price is the only reason I got Complete Warrior from Amazon. However, I don't think even a reduced price will get me to purchase Races of Stone. I have Races of Faerun and just do not see any need to purchase a generic book. Plus, my players don't have an inclination towards the races of stone. Thus, even they would not get much use out of the tome. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 19:04:24
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Why does everyone here immediately slam new races? Folks, what is wrong with WOTC releasing new tomes with new information for new ideas? The option is that they do nothing , release no new material and completely forget about its fans and focus on Pokemon or something.....
It seems that the same people who complained about 2nd ed. being too limited are now complaining about the ever-expanding nature of 3rd ed...
For me, a new tome = a chance for new angles in my campaign. Maybe you people don't agree...oh well...I still love you all. Especially the ladies.
Oh, yes...the ladies....
Sigh. I'm hopeless.  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 19:10:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Why does everyone here immediately slam new races?
Help me out here AE...where in this thread does anyone "slam" the new races that are set to appear in this tome? |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 20:23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Why does everyone here immediately slam new races? Folks, what is wrong with WOTC releasing new tomes with new information for new ideas? The option is that they do nothing , release no new material and completely forget about its fans and focus on Pokemon or something.....
I just fail to see the point of these countless new races. Its a craze, like PrCs, that without the accompaniment of good, grounding lore is just a sad waste.
But that's my opinion - if you disagree that's perfectly valid. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 21:15:14
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Even though it seems there is a whole chapter of the book dedicated to the new race(far, far more than is on elves in either the phb or the FRCS) I must agree that liekly ther will be, at best, the bare bones of lore for them.
However, that is a good thing. Just like with rules released they are there for DMS who want to use them to make use of, and in most if not all cases whatever was printed of theri history would be heavily altered anyway.
I like new things, races prcs and rules, and though I may not use them all I at least get a little mechanical inspiuration from most new races, and at the very lest I get a chapter to read about them in.
Now, as to whether I will buy the book, it depends on whether or not it is something useful enough for me to want to have it at my table. If it isn't, then I will just peruse it in the store, and let it go, like so many others. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 21:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Why does everyone here immediately slam new races? Folks, what is wrong with WOTC releasing new tomes with new information for new ideas? The option is that they do nothing , release no new material and completely forget about its fans and focus on Pokemon or something.....
It seems that the same people who complained about 2nd ed. being too limited are now complaining about the ever-expanding nature of 3rd ed...
For me, a new tome = a chance for new angles in my campaign. Maybe you people don't agree...oh well...I still love you all. Especially the ladies.
Oh, yes...the ladies....
Sigh. I'm hopeless.
Because it's one of the areas with the least design space. Races need to be so integrated with the setting that having new ones thrown continually at us in the generic D&D line is wasted space to me. This is also why I dislike monsters like the desmodu, as they are essentially races themselves. I will not bend over backward to integrate WotC's new offerings into my worlds-if they fit, they fit. I won't go against canon to put in the latest shiny powergaming tool. And these races don't fit-they aren't integrated. I have no problem with new books-however, new races for detailed sections of my settings are useless to me. Wasted space. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 22:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
however, new races for detailed sections of my settings are useless to me. Wasted space.
I will say this about new races/etc. being introduced into FR. If it's going to happen, I'd like to see a novel detailing some lore/information about the new race as the Shades were featured in the Archwizards series. Such a move I belive helps draw in fan interest in this new element becoming part of Faerun. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 22:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
however, new races for detailed sections of my settings are useless to me. Wasted space.
I will say this about new races/etc. being introduced into FR. If it's going to happen, I'd like to see a novel detailing some lore/information about the new race as the Shades were featured in the Archwizards series. Such a move I belive helps draw in fan interest in this new element becoming part of Faerun.
I'll agree with that. Giving a new race air-time in a novel would go a long way towards making them feel more a part of the Realms, rather than something new hastily tossed in. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 23:44:21
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I was just referring, Sirius, to the negative attitude we as posters are showing WOTC's newest tomes...in this case (and not to point fingers) I was referring to Arivia's comment: "Oh, it's another bloody race!". While I understand our trepidation at plunking down anohther 19.95 + tax for the tome, I still think that WOTC putting out lots and lots of product is a good thing.
I'm not suggesting we all integrate everything WOTC puts out into our game - and I don't think that's their intention, either:
"The information in this work provides you, the Dungeon Master, with a sketch, a snapshot, of a complete, living, breathing fantasy world in which to set your D&D game. It's...a set of suggestions for how you could play a continuing game..." - Faerun Campaign Setting (pg. 6)
So, I just don't see a point in us rolling our eyes everytime they offer us new material. Clearly they aren't suggesting that the game is incomplete without every book under the sun they produce.
Again, I think most of us would say that it's Faerun's vastness, its neverending growth and borderless room for good fantasy that have drawn most of us into Toril in the first place.
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 01:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I was just referring, Sirius, to the negative attitude we as posters are showing WOTC's newest tomes
Opinions vary, I can clearly point out to many online comments which make me suspect WOTC could publish 190 blank pages in a gaming product and it would still sell to some consumers because it's from WOTC.
quote:
...in this case (and not to point fingers) I was referring to Arivia's comment: "Oh, it's another bloody race!". While I understand our trepidation at plunking down anohther 19.95 + tax for the tome, I still think that WOTC putting out lots and lots of product is a good thing.
Not to point fingers...but it's your fault Arivia! Hang your head in shame.
This above comment makes me ponder another reason I can't get too excited about a WOTC generic product. D20 companies have beaten them to the punch. Now, some would say that WOTC puts forth better quality material than these D20 companies. However, in my experiences of a WOTC item versus a similar D20 item, results have varied as to who has come out on top.
Draconomicron was clearly better than any D20 dragon item I encountered. However, the early class books that WOTC put out, were in my opinion of a lesser quality than some D20 companies' offerings. Again, opinions can vary, but it's clear that WOTC feels that any previous D20 offerings will not hinder their sales when it comes to Races of Stone. For example, take a look some comments from Charles Ryan, Brand Manager of D&D at WOTC.
quote:
Q) Do you think that all the d20 books that are out on the market hurt the sales of individual WOTC books?
No, I think there is a lot of stuff on the market. I think it's a pie, where the more stuff that comes out, the slices get thinner and thinner. I'm not in the d20 publishing business so I can't say much about that except that I imagine that is a really tough business to be in since there are so many companies. I don't think us. I think there's very few people - talk about Races of Stone for example - who are going to make a decision between a d20 company's book about dwarves and our book about dwarves and choose not to buy ours. They may buy the other one in addition to see what other insights they get, but I think someone who really wants to know lots of stuff about dwarves - I think we're their first choice. Maybe that's a little hubris on my part.
I don't think it's hubris. I think he's dead on here. Now, whether that is because of quality or just the power of WOTC's name as the publisher, could be debated endlessly.
quote:
So, I just don't see a point in us rolling our eyes everytime they offer us new material. Clearly they aren't suggesting that the game is incomplete without every book under the sun they produce.
Actually, some recent comments in a Dragon magazine had me for the first time sensing hubris when it came to advertising or promoting a WOTC product. But, again, that's just my opinion. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 13 Jul 2004 01:56:01 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 02:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I was just referring, Sirius, to the negative attitude we as posters are showing WOTC's newest tomes...in this case (and not to point fingers) I was referring to Arivia's comment: "Oh, it's another bloody race!". While I understand our trepidation at plunking down anohther 19.95 + tax for the tome, I still think that WOTC putting out lots and lots of product is a good thing.
I'm not suggesting we all integrate everything WOTC puts out into our game - and I don't think that's their intention, either:
"The information in this work provides you, the Dungeon Master, with a sketch, a snapshot, of a complete, living, breathing fantasy world in which to set your D&D game. It's...a set of suggestions for how you could play a continuing game..." - Faerun Campaign Setting (pg. 6)
So, I just don't see a point in us rolling our eyes everytime they offer us new material. Clearly they aren't suggesting that the game is incomplete without every book under the sun they produce.
Again, I think most of us would say that it's Faerun's vastness, its neverending growth and borderless room for good fantasy that have drawn most of us into Toril in the first place.
I have no problem with them offering new products, especially in this industry, where you have to produce new product or die. However, I do not think that we need new races, especially in the core D&D line, especially in a supplement devoted to two existing races! I don't know. Maybe I-maybe I don't share the same fixation WotC's consumer base seems to with new races! monstrous characters! and all that other overblown stuff. What the hell ever happened to the simple, elven fighter, for example? No, now it's Tharg, half-demon goliath fighter! I'm just tired of new entries in this already overstuffed category, a Pandora's Box apparently opened by Savage Species. But, what do I know? I'm just a consumer, and not in the group they are trying to appeal to. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 02:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
But, what do I know? I'm just a consumer, and not in the group they are trying to appeal to.
And there's nothing wrong with being in the minority here. As a consumer you still have the power of not supporting products that you don't like or find appealing. I certainly have excercised that a great deal this year with D20 items. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2004 : 22:24:38
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| RPGShop is now showing this product as in stock. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 02:43:02
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| I'll say it again: I simply do not have any money to throw away on products not bearing the FR logo... there's a whole line of products supporting the game setting I have chosen (FR, duh!) Why would I ever want to care or bother with "Goliaths" and their "Lord of Rams" deities and other stupidities... |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 12:52:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
What the hell ever happened to the simple, elven fighter, for example? No, now it's Tharg, half-demon goliath fighter! I'm just tired of new entries in this already overstuffed category, a Pandora's Box apparently opened by Savage Species. But, what do I know? I'm just a consumer, and not in the group they are trying to appeal to.
Arivia, you are suffering a bad case of 3E-itis. What you need is a good dose of 2nd Edition (you remember, real D&D). That will sort out your problem and have you feeling better in no time.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 15:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I'll say it again: I simply do not have any money to throw away on products not bearing the FR logo... there's a whole line of products supporting the game setting I have chosen (FR, duh!) Why would I ever want to care or bother with "Goliaths" and their "Lord of Rams" deities and other stupidities...
I'll agree with that... Most of my gaming dollars go to the Forgotten Realms or BattleTech, so there's not much left over for the generic D&D stuff. Besides, I remember how useless the majority of the stuff in the 2E "Complete X Handbooks" was. Most of those books offered nothing more useful than a single kit or two. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 18:52:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
Arivia, you are suffering a bad case of 3E-itis. What you need is a good dose of 2nd Edition (you remember, real D&D). That will sort out your problem and have you feeling better in no time.
I have to agree with this one. One thing I've noticed with 3E is the explosion of classes, new species, and PrCs. It is an never-ending hunger for new things which most consumers seem to posses these days, never really taking time to appreciate what is already there.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, I remember how useless the majority of the stuff in the 2E "Complete X Handbooks" was. Most of those books offered nothing more useful than a single kit or two.
That depends on the Handbook. I found that some of them helped flesh out both species and classes. There was this Psionicists Handbook (one of three we used) which practically disintegrated in our hands from all of the use that we gave it.
I think there will always be some books, no matter which edition, which will be useless to some. I myself feel that 3E has an overabundance of them.
(Even so, I do find this particular tome to be rather intriguing ) |
The Wanderer |
Edited by - The Wanderer on 05 Aug 2004 18:53:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 22:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Besides, I remember how useless the majority of the stuff in the 2E "Complete X Handbooks" was. Most of those books offered nothing more useful than a single kit or two.
That depends on the Handbook. I found that some of them helped flesh out both species and classes. There was this Psionicists Handbook (one of three we used) which practically disintegrated in our hands from all of the use that we gave it.
I think there will always be some books, no matter which edition, which will be useless to some. I myself feel that 3E has an overabundance of them.
(Even so, I do find this particular tome to be rather intriguing )
Oh, yeah, that's a given. The Humanoids Handbook was, in my opinion, one of the better ones. One of my fave characters ever was inspired by that book. The psionics one was great, too -- in fact, it was the first one I bought.
But on the whole, I was disappointed with that series. Some of them were just plain useless. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 03:11:28
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| I have many books which are useless when I roleplay. As inspiration, however, they are *cue visa commercial* PRICELESS. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 05:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
I have many books which are useless when I roleplay. As inspiration, however, they are *cue visa commercial* PRICELESS.
Most of the Complete X Handbooks didn't even offer me any inspiration... That's why I have no interest in these other books. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 16:08:39
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| I don't think I would buy this one...due to the fact funds are limited and I noticed that there is book dealing with artic conditions. Frostburn will get my money. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 06:04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll agree with that... Most of my gaming dollars go to the Forgotten Realms or BattleTech, so there's not much left over for the generic D&D stuff.
I'll be experiencing that particular problem shortly (as I'm sure you will be also)... especially with the multitude of CBT tomes due for release in the coming months...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 06:05:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
I don't think I would buy this one...due to the fact funds are limited and I noticed that there is book dealing with artic conditions. Frostburn will get my money.
I'll be purchasing this tome, if only because of the gnome-fanatic that resides within me...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2004 : 07:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll agree with that... Most of my gaming dollars go to the Forgotten Realms or BattleTech, so there's not much left over for the generic D&D stuff.
I'll be experiencing that particular problem shortly (as I'm sure you will be also)... especially with the multitude of CBT tomes due for release in the coming months...
Yeah... I *just* got my hands on Mercs Revised yesterday! Of course, I'm not going to jump on all of the new books... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
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'Races of Stone' excerpt
