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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 17:16:07
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Am just into book 4 of Elaine Cunningham’s Evermeet: Island of the Elves. A much better read than I had originally thought it would be by the way (I have never been all that big on elves or their history…A likely side effect of trudging through the Silmarillion some years ago.)
Anyway, aside from the fact that I am enjoying the work, I find many questions arising regarding D&D (thus I am posting here rather than the novels section). Can any of the more knowledgeable senior scribes tell me if there are other references to the following things (either in novels, Dragon magazines or sourcebooks of any edition).
The demon-beast servant summoned by Malar referred to as the Elf-eater. (Has this beast/fiend/thing appeared in any compendiums or manuals?)
The Starwing Fleet created by Vhoori Durothil. (Has this been referenced anywhere among Spelljammer books or FR works?)
The appearance of The Tears of Selune. I have read elsewhere that these are small planetoid/asteroids although I can’t remember the source and or if it was canon and I seem to recall something about them being used by ‘pirates’. Has the moon (Selune) and or any of these tears been documented at all? (Spelljammer perhaps?)
Thanks to any who can shed some light on these topics for me. 
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 17:59:53
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Ityak-Ortheel the Elf-Eater is written up in Powers & Pantheons; Selûne and the Tears are described in Dale "Slade" Henson's SJR2 Realmspace, a source (like his Netheril, and unlike Ed's SJR1 Lost Ships) I mostly ignore.
Sorry that you didn't like the Silmarillion. Rather colours everything else you say! |
Edited by - Faraer on 10 Jul 2004 18:01:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 18:21:49
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Faraer is correct with the Ityak-Ortheel and Tears of Selûne mentions. Unlike him, I rather liked Realmspace.
I believe the Ityak-Ortheel first appeared in one of the Moonshae novels.
According to Realmspace, the Tears of Selûne abruptly popped into existence about 4800 years ago. Another odd factoid is that the natives of Selûne call it Leira, after the goddess they worship.
Though the Rock of Bral was originally free to be placed anywhere, I believe it was Steven Schend who took the listed suggestion and finally stuck it in the Tears. This is mentioned under the Gamalon Idogyr entry in Lands of Intrigue, IIRC.
Yes, there are pirates in the Tears, particularly the crew of the Batship.
The Starwings, or Ruathimaer, are basically smaller versions of the elven Man-O-War, the main vessel used by starfaring elves. The Starwings are described in Elves of Evermeet, and their big brothers the Men-O-War are described in the first Spelljammer boxed set, Adventures in Space. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 19:47:32
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Thanks to both of you for the info. Looks like I have some more Ebay hunting to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Sorry that you didn't like the Silmarillion. Rather colours everything else you say!
Well, I do have to admit that it was not the best read I ever poured my gray matter over...I am not exactly sure how that colours everything else I say. Some people like certain works and others don't. Not that I don't think Tolkien is a great author, but I just wasn't expecting to have to live an elven lifespan to read the histories of ME  I guess I see far too many similarities between ME elves and FR elves. Sure there are differences but the similarities have always stuck in my mind for some reason.
OK so now my big question is... How does 3E handle Realmspace / Spelljammer and the 1E / 2E references. I know they changed the planar cosmology. Is the physical realmspace changed (and as a result is Spelljammer tech like the Starwings and other tie-ins) Is that all history now? |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 19:49:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
The demon-beast servant summoned by Malar referred to as the Elf-eater. (Has this beast/fiend/thing appeared in any compendiums or manuals?)[/br]
Detailed in Powers & Pantheons. First appeared in the Druidhome trilogy (second Moonshaes trilogy).
quote:
The Starwing Fleet created by Vhoori Durothil. (Has this been referenced anywhere among Spelljammer books or FR works?)[/br]
Don't recall. Check "Realmspace."
quote:
The appearance of The Tears of Selune. I have read elsewhere that these are small planetoid/asteroids although I can’t remember the source and or if it was canon and I seem to recall something about them being used by ‘pirates’. Has the moon (Selune) and or any of these tears been documented at all? (Spelljammer perhaps?)[/br]
Realmspace.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 21:04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Thanks to both of you for the info. Looks like I have some more Ebay hunting to do.
OK so now my big question is... How does 3E handle Realmspace / Spelljammer and the 1E / 2E references. I know they changed the planar cosmology. Is the physical realmspace changed (and as a result is Spelljammer tech like the Starwings and other tie-ins) Is that all history now?
3E hasn't really touched Spelljammer, all that much. There was some info in an issue of Dungeon, but I found it dissatifying -- they stripped out a lot of things I really liked about 2E Spelljammer.
Some 3E Spelljammer info can be found here.
I know not of any Spelljammer references in 3E FR material. I'd be likely to say that the funky cosmology inflicted on the Realms in 3E would invalidate venturing outside of Realmspace. For me, that's just another reason to stick with the Great Wheel.
In 2E, there were occasional Spelljammer references, but my guess is that all of those have been negated, as has so much other stuff that was a casualty of 3E and the Great Tree.
Me, personally, I loved Spelljammer. I love the Realms, too, but as far as TSR campaign settings, Spelljammer will always remain my first love.  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 22:00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
3E hasn't really touched Spelljammer, all that much. There was some info in an issue of Dungeon, but I found it dissatifying -- they stripped out a lot of things I really liked about 2E Spelljammer.
Some 3E Spelljammer info can be found here.
I know not of any Spelljammer references in 3E FR material. I'd be likely to say that the funky cosmology inflicted on the Realms in 3E would invalidate venturing outside of Realmspace. For me, that's just another reason to stick with the Great Wheel.
In 2E, there were occasional Spelljammer references, but my guess is that all of those have been negated, as has so much other stuff that was a casualty of 3E and the Great Tree.
Me, personally, I loved Spelljammer. I love the Realms, too, but as far as TSR campaign settings, Spelljammer will always remain my first love.
The FRCS mentions some of the other planets, etc. But for 3e I guess each Material Plane could technically be connected by the Phlo..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 00:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some 3E Spelljammer info can be found here.
I know not of any Spelljammer references in 3E FR material. I'd be likely to say that the funky cosmology inflicted on the Realms in 3E would invalidate venturing outside of Realmspace. For me, that's just another reason to stick with the Great Wheel.
Thanks for that site Wooly. From some of the Realms related info I looked over, I found some interesting stuff that I was never aware of. Particularly the small "fleets" maintained by Waterdeep and Cormyr. Now I have never played Spelljammer and so I am not familiar with the abilitites of the ships, but if they operate similarly to the Starwings of Evermeet (i.e capable of operation within the atmosphere) it seems to me that such forces would have been useful to Cormyr during the events of Death of the Dragon and/or The Return of the Archwizards saga. But I get the feeling that old Spelljammer canon has been sort of "swept under the rug" as it were and never taken too seriously. Am I wrong in this assumption? |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 11 Jul 2004 00:33:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 03:23:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
Thanks for that site Wooly. From some of the Realms related info I looked over, I found some interesting stuff that I was never aware of. Particularly the small "fleets" maintained by Waterdeep and Cormyr. Now I have never played Spelljammer and so I am not familiar with the abilitites of the ships, but if they operate similarly to the Starwings of Evermeet (i.e capable of operation within the atmosphere) it seems to me that such forces would have been useful to Cormyr during the events of Death of the Dragon and/or The Return of the Archwizards saga. But I get the feeling that old Spelljammer canon has been sort of "swept under the rug" as it were and never taken too seriously. Am I wrong in this assumption?
Yeah, Spelljammer seems to have been swept under the rug. 
There weren't many nations on Toril that did have a strong spelljamming presence.
Evermeet has contact with the Elven Imperial Navy, but not much of a spacefaring presence.
Thay has put a few ships into space, but they, too, haven't done a lot in space.
Wa, over in the Kara-Tur, has got some presence in space. I think it was only 6 or 8 ships, and they did it mostly to compete with Shou Lung. The Tsunami was a big ship, though -- it was designed to compete with the elven Armadas.
Of all Toril's nations, Shou Lung is the one with the largest presence in space. Various emporers have been interested in what's going on over their heads, and sent ships up there. As I recall, the Shou have a sizable contingent on the Rock of Bral.
The Netherese discovered spelljamming on their own, but didn't do very much with it.
I'm sure that some mages from Nimbral and Halruaa have made their way into space. Halruaa seems a likely candidate for exploring space, but I don't recall reading about any real efforts on their part to do so. So while individual Halruaan mages have undoubtedly headed into space, it's never received national attention. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 04:53:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Halruaa seems a likely candidate for exploring space, but I don't recall reading about any real efforts on their part to do so. So while individual Halruaan mages have undoubtedly headed into space, it's never received national attention.
That might be something to ask Thomas M. Reid in his thread...whether or not his upcoming tome mentions any Halruaan mages doing such explorations. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 05:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
3E hasn't really touched Spelljammer, all that much. There was some info in an issue of Dungeon, but I found it dissatifying -- they stripped out a lot of things I really liked about 2E Spelljammer.
That is correct. In fact, aside from the concept of "spelljamming" there was very little 2e SJ material used for the setting of the Spider Moon at all. The writers even went to the extraordinary step of basing the setting in it's own planetary system (2e's crystal sphere). Most of the races detailed were specifically changed, and Drow were included as the major threat race.
There were some tie-ins with pre-established SJ material though. The focus of the gnomes remained relatively unchanged, and the detailing of the gnomes in Spider Moon were based, in part, upon the concept of the 3e DL tinker gnomes (I think the DLCS even mentions that particular fact). The Neogi and Scro, and most of the other races that made SJ "fantasy in space" are all notably absent. The only constant, it would appear, was the retaining by the writers, of the Illithids.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 05:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, personally, I loved Spelljammer. I love the Realms, too, but as far as TSR campaign settings, Spelljammer will always remain my first love.
Spelljammer was a favorite for me as well, but only after Dragonlance and the Forgotten Realms. Planescape will always be my #1 though...
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 12:07:15
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on the subject of torils weak presence in space:
even if there are some realms on toril that have spelljammers or even a small fleet (or several small fleets, like the different noble houses of cormyr), it makes sense that they are rarely encountered in realmspace or beyond that sphere. after all those ships can be used for very fast continental travel - and thus, very profitable trade!
contrary to magic portals or gates (what exactly is the difference between a portal and a gate? has it something to to with one opening to other planes and the other linking two places on th same plane?  ), a spelljamming ship can move lots of cargo.
furthermore, it´s better to be a bg fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond: why risk exposure to the dangers of wildspace when you can use your ´jammer on the planet?
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 12:47:17
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Older Spelljammer refs only came up once in the context of Serpent Kingdoms. (See the write-up of Rethild, the Great Swamp, and compare to FR15 - Gold & Glory, Servants of the Egg mercenary company.)
I tried to handle it gracefully in a way that does not refer to Spelljammer, but still keeps the option open for DMs who have made that an important part of their campaign.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 13:31:09
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I'm sure I'll appreciate your efforts Mr Boyd. Of course, there's nothing preventing an imaginative DM from including SJ elements in his/her 3e FR campaign. As you say, if it's an important part of their game, then it only takes a little effort to expand upon what references or material has been presented.
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 14:35:53
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More info on Ityak-Ortheel can be found in the lost archives of the Wizards website.
Incidentally, I too am currently reading Evermeet: Island of Elves. Currently most of the way through Book 2 myself.
On Spelljammer - I love the Realmspace stuff, but I am not so fond of the afforementioned connections to FR nations. I don't like that such technology is part of traditional Realms - i.e. Cormyr. I liked it as two separate, but connected, worlds. Evermeet worked very nicely as a Spelljammer connection, as it is so mysterious and isolated, as would Halruaa. And tidbits such as the Slyth in Underdark showed how the campaigns could co-exist. But if Cormyr has spelljammer-ships, wouldn't that change its political power and its technological climate?
And, Sage: You probably will not be surprised, but for me it goes - 1. FR, 2. Planescape, 3. Spelljammer, 4. Dragonlance, 5. anything else (though Eberron could still make itself an independent 5)!
EDIT: Oh and finally, Chyron, I too found reading The Silmarillion to be akin to wading through a glue-like quagmire. In some ways I felt sort of privaleged to be reading so thorough and flavorsome a history of ME, but at the same time it was too much - and Tolkien's decision to make the prose seem extra-poetic didn't help. My memory of the book now is simply a haze of incomprehension. |
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My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 11 Jul 2004 14:45:55 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 14:42:12
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You're right, I'm not surprised. Though I glad to see some classics made it into your top 5. My 5th place ranking is occupied by Ravenloft.
Now, back to quality Evermeet related discussion...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 14:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
But if Cormyr has spelljammer-ships, wouldn't that change its political power and its technological climate?
Heh, you have no idea how many times this type of question has come up on the SJ Mailing List.
I think that what a lot of people forget is, how expensive a SJ is to purchase (and operate) in the first place. Not only that, even if a country has access to Spelljammers, the realm would need substantial numbers in order to have any real and lasting effect on the political climate of such a large continent like Faerun. The Realms has always had several highly powered characters who, standing together, could very well be more than match for several spelljammers. It would take a large fleet indeed, to overcome such individuals as the Chosen for example. Of course, I'm not saying that Cormyr has direct expansionist plans, but their "acquisition" of Tilverton had several neighbouring realms worried for several years.
Even before the return of the Shade Enclaves, it's unlikely that the few SJ realms to the east would allow the western powers to gain much of a foothold in Realmspace. Shou Lung especially, has spent considerable time and effort building, maintaining and expanding their Celestial Navy. I find it hard to believe that they would look upon the expansion of Cormyrian SJ intentions as anything other than a threat to their enterprises.
I could go on, but I'm tired and am sorely in need of sleep...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 19:52:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
But if Cormyr has spelljammer-ships, wouldn't that change its political power and its technological climate?
Heh, you have no idea how many times this type of question has come up on the SJ Mailing List.
I think that what a lot of people forget is, how expensive a SJ is to purchase (and operate) in the first place. Not only that, even if a country has access to Spelljammers, the realm would need substantial numbers in order to have any real and lasting effect on the political climate of such a large continent like Faerun. The Realms has always had several highly powered characters who, standing together, could very well be more than match for several spelljammers. It would take a large fleet indeed, to overcome such individuals as the Chosen for example. Of course, I'm not saying that Cormyr has direct expansionist plans, but their "acquisition" of Tilverton had several neighbouring realms worried for several years.
Even before the return of the Shade Enclaves, it's unlikely that the few SJ realms to the east would allow the western powers to gain much of a foothold in Realmspace. Shou Lung especially, has spent considerable time and effort building, maintaining and expanding their Celestial Navy. I find it hard to believe that they would look upon the expansion of Cormyrian SJ intentions as anything other than a threat to their enterprises.
I could go on, but I'm tired and am sorely in need of sleep...
Another point to consider is each nation's attitudes towards space... Let me put it to you this way: I live on the Space Coast. I can step outside and watch stuff getting launched from Cape Canaveral. Yet, even here, I know of people who consider the space program a waste of money.
We have certainly had many benefits from the space program, yet it still has many opponents. In the Realms, though, there's not going to be as many benefits.
To use Cormyr as an example, the average citizen will gain very little from space travel. A farmer just cares about his crops. A craftsman or merchant wants to sell their goods, and they'd certainly not welcome increased competition. A Purple Dragon or War Wizard is just concerned about protecting the kingdom, and won't see a need to go looking for more trouble. A noble wouldn't care about space, they'd be more concerned with gaining power or gold at the expense of other nobles. And the royals are just trying to stay on top of this madhouse of intrigue and self-concern...
At this particular point in time, there's just little reason for a Realms nation to want to go into space. The Shou have done it, sure, but that's part of a long-standing interest in space. It's certainly not a huge representation of Shou interests, though, it's more a thing of the Emperor likes it, so it happens. Wa only went to space to compete with the Shou. Thay has not done much other than just seeing what's out there.
I don't see any Realms nation making a serious attempt to go into space without something forcing them to. Now, if a fleet of neogi Deathspiders suddenly sacked Suzail, then Cormyr would have a reason to go into space. Barring something like that, though, I just don't see it happening. |
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Questions on Evermeet related material
