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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 00:30:09
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When a character casts a summoning spell, where do the creatures come from? Obviously from another plane (at least for wizards) but where specifically? Is there some elemental wandering about its daily business, and suddenly vanishes? Does it return exactly to where it was summoned from? What about summon nature's ally spells? Do the creatures come running out of the nearby woods, or do they disappear from their den and appear near the caster? Is it possible to summon a specific person, or a kind of character (summon wizard, anyone?) I'm fairly sure that, if it is even possible, they would get a save opportunity, but why don't the dire badgers? I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I'm really curious about the mechanics of these spells.
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 00:43:08
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Let's answer each in its turn:
"When a character casts a summoning spell, where do the creatures come from? Obviously from another plane (at least for wizards) but where specifically?"
Wherever it is a creature comes from, that's its origin. A summoning spell summons a discrete individual, rather than "generating" a new one.
"Is there some elemental wandering about its daily business, and suddenly vanishes?"
Not necessarily. The DMG says that the choice of creature is random (so a summoned hound archon might be any hound archon from the whole of existence), but it's possible that a specific creature might refuse the summons, or that there exists some less random method of choice, be it a lottery, a deity's will, or simply which creatures are willing to be summoned.
"Does it return exactly to where it was summoned from?"
Yes.
"What about summon nature's ally spells? Do the creatures come running out of the nearby woods, or do they disappear from their den and appear near the caster?"
They disappear and reappear, although one could, for effect, have the summoned creatures appear to rush out of the nearby wilderness. Summon spells are not limited by what creatures are in the local vicinity; there is nothing which prevents an underwater druid from summoning a monkey.
"Is it possible to summon a specific person, or a kind of character (summon wizard, anyone?)"
No, although it's certainly possible to construct a summoning list which accounted for the abilities of the summoned creature, or to find ways to insert leveled NPCs in the list. It is possible to continually summon the same, specific creature, as noted in the DMG (see the "Summoning Individual Creatures" sidebar).
"I'm fairly sure that, if it is even possible, they would get a save opportunity, but why don't the dire badgers?"
The baseline spell assumes somewhat willing, randomly selected creatures of the summoned type, which is why there is no saving throw; in all the multiverse, you'll get at least one "yeah, okay." Specific sentient individuals would absolutely get a save, but it's not possible to summon your average non-outsider wizard using a summon monster spell, anyway. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 00:47:56
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Earlier editions of the game rules were pretty specific in saying that summon spells randomly grab appropriate people or creatures from where ever they happen to be, teleport them to the summoner, and in the case of some spells put them under the power of the summoner.
I know that in 2nd edition, I ran a game session where the entire party had been summoned by a wizard who needed some protection. They disappeared from where the inn they were carousing in, appeared at the wizard's side, and were compelled to fight for him. When they were dismissed they found themselves back at the inn. Eventually, they were able to track the wizard down and get revenge.
In 3.0 and 3.5, Summon Monster spells have been slightly changed so that it summons extra-planar creatures and entities rather than ones from the same plane. So, the same scenario could still be run, but they would have to be summoned to a different plane. Summon Nature's Ally does take the creatures from the same plane as the caster. Probably the closest creatures that meets the specs of the spell.
Sarta |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 00:52:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
They disappear and reappear, although one could, for effect, have the summoned creatures appear to rush out of the nearby wilderness. Summon spells are not limited by what creatures are in the local vicinity; there is nothing which prevents an underwater druid from summoning a monkey.
Except that the monkey might not like having its lungs fill up with water   . |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 00:57:02
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| Wouldn't it be strange if a party's wizard disappears in the middle of a battle, called for duty in an Elemental Plane? Or some kind of planar mercenaries, summoned for hire to help win a battle. That could be quite lucrative, provided that you survive the battles, of course. Speaking of which, can extraplanar beings summon things from the Prime Material? A royally ticked-off demon casting summon archmage is a funny idea. What about magical hunting, summoning deer, wrangling up some cattle to eat? |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 04:39:51
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Garen Thal, I don't agree with what you said about not being able to summon characters. What about the Chosens of Mystra? They use their magic to summon each for help and companionship. Now, I know their powers are different, but it's still technically summoning someone through magic.
Also, I remember a chapter in Elminster in Hell where Vangerdahast "summoned" Khelben Blackstaff to the vaults of the Royal Palace, who was particularly pissed off because he was interrupted during one of his "intimate moments with Laeral". |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 04:54:27
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Garen Thal, I don't agree with what you said about not being able to summon characters. What about the Chosens of Mystra? They use their magic to summon each for help and companionship. Now, I know their powers are different, but it's still technically summoning someone through magic.
In game terms, this is not a summoning. Summoning doesn't actually bring a creature to you; it brings part of the creature in physical form, but separates the spirit and essence of the creature from the physical body, or simply creates a duplicate body for the creature being summoned (since soul and body are one in the same for outsiders and the like).
I don't claim that there is no way to forcibly transport someone to you by use of magic. It's simply not a summoning spell, because the word 'summoning' has very specific game ramifications. Being able to transport spellcasters by means of a spell of this sort is far beyond the power of a typical summoning spell; being able to summon NPCs isn't an option because a character could--potentially--effectively double her power level for the duration of the spell. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 05:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I don't claim that there is no way to forcibly transport someone to you by use of magic. It's simply not a summoning spell, because the word 'summoning' has very specific game ramifications. Being able to transport spellcasters by means of a spell of this sort is far beyond the power of a typical summoning spell; being able to summon NPCs isn't an option because a character could--potentially--effectively double her power level for the duration of the spell.
It's a calling-see planar binding for example. Oh, and we have seen examples of this-simulacrum, anyone? Or a bracelet of friends? |
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chosenofvelsharoon
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 07:38:45
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There are actually a few options offered by various versions of player handbooks and dmg's. it's essentially up to the dm
the most common are:
1 you summon a random extraplanar creature, ex: dire rat#654
2 you create a construct that has the same stats as an average creature.
3 you summon the same extra planar creature, ex: the formian warrior fred (sc5) or fred and wanda (and possible joe, ed, and wendy (1d4+1 sc7). if fred dies, you can either have it replaced with john, or he can alway be revived (possibly not being able to be summoned for a number of days).
see dmg3.0 pg 96 |
~chosen of Velsharoon
"and naught shall be left, saved shattered throwns with none to rule them but the dead." |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 03:43:27
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| Personally ive always said that you summon a creature from the afterlife. There they are are dwelling in whatever heaven or hell they inhabit and then they are given a mortal form (again) for a few moments, that way my summoners dont feel bad sending their summoned-cannon-foddar off into battle. I couldnt see druids summoning an animal from a random area of the realms sending them into battle knowing they might die and disrupting the balance of nature. |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 16:09:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
What about magical hunting, summoning deer, wrangling up some cattle to eat?
Remember that at the end of the spell even if the creature is dead, it returns to its home alive (possibly with PTSD). So, assuming your summoning spell has a long enough duration, you could roast up a summoned chicken, but you're just going to hungry again at the end of the duration. It's like chinese food. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 19:23:32
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I often think of summoned things as sort of being in a stasis other place. I think of Drizzt's panther I can't remember the name of. A nature's ally being might be a spirit that is summoned forth from another dimension and materializes here, but it doesn't really disrupt its life. I don't think a summoned bear dying in the service of a druid would disrupt nature or snatch a bear away from somewhere. It makes more sense to me that it would be like a spirit bear materializing to serve the druid/cleric.
Fiends, celestials, coutls, Modrons, etc. I think of you as having to know the name of the entity and call it forth. Maybe there are Hound Archons waiting to be summoned in a celestial barracks with infinite patience by virtuous wizards, or something. If summoned by a cleric they'd be divine servants of the deity. Elementals might exist in a different way in the elemental planes, not really being active or that active until they come to the material plane. |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 22:42:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Remember that at the end of the spell even if the creature is dead, it returns to its home alive (possibly with PTSD). So, assuming your summoning spell has a long enough duration, you could roast up a summoned chicken, but you're just going to hungry again at the end of the duration. It's like chinese food.
Thanks Rhewtani
The part about PTSD did make me chuckle and it sort of reminded me of a conversation that myself and a friend had.
We were discussing possible encounters that might be fun and he suggested a player character being summoned via a Summon Monster spell. The summoner would be a magic user in need of help and would command the summoned player character to fight whatever they were up against.
We thought that it might be a chance to meet the magic user again if the player character found out where they had been summoned to...
We've also discussed summoning spells and where the creatures originate from at great length. In the campaign that I am currently running the PC Wizard created a Cloak Clasp that could be used to summon a horse for 6 hours 2/day. The Mount spell was used in the crafting process and I decided that the horses that were summoned would be the Dambraii breed, and fed on arkas grass in Dambrath (Champions of Valor, p155). |
Edited by - Farrel on 17 Nov 2011 22:43:17 |
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The stuff of summoning...
