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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Nov 2002 : 12:31:10
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I have got a few things that I would like some comments on from other DMs who may be more experienced with this than I am. By the way - this is only concerned with AD&D 2nd Edition.
- The Creation of Magical Items
Which method do you use? The reason I am asking is because there are different rules (or variations of these rules) to be found in both Dungeons Master's Guide, Player's Option: Spells & Magic, Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, Dungeon Master's Option: High-level Campaigns and probably a few other books as well.
It is fine by me that creating these items is difficult and rather complicated but some of the examples I have seen are downright discouraging and way out of proportions - in my humble opinion.
One example I remember was the creation of a wand of fire - gathering the materials required travelling to the Plane of Fire to precure iron created by Efreets which then needed to be tempered by Red Dragon breath. All of this was previous to enchanting even.
Do you alter these rules in your own campaigns? And how, if applicable?
In fact, I'm experiencing myself altering or removing rules more and more (I am well aware that they encourage players and DMs to do so if everybody agree on it but I would still like to discuss these things).
I've changed most of the spells that age or drain Con. Not because it was wanted by my players but because I felt like it. I mean, who would ever want to use Haste when one's life depends on a System Shock roll? The same goes for other aging spells (Resurrection, Limited Wish and Wish). The benefits do not outweight the losses. Permanency eats a Con - who would want to use it? None of my players at any rate. How do you handle these spells in your games? Currently I have changed them so that a successfull System Shock avoids the loss of youth or Con.
Another issue with (Limited) Wish. Does the use of an item that grants wish (Rings of Wishes, Luck Blade) age the recipient? The reason I am asking is because DM Option: HL Camp. has a section on the loss of years for every race and normally halflings and dwarves would never able to cast these spells. I don't this is clarified very well.
- Demihumans.
One thing I have never understood is why humans are only allowed to duel-class and demihumans are only allowed to multi-class (besides single-classing). There isn't even a good explanation as to why. Currently I have allowed all races to do both. Comments?
Class combinations. If a dwarf can be a thief and a cleric, why can't he be a cleric/thief when a gnome can? How come elves have no cleric multi-class combinations? Why can't an elf be a necromancer or an abjurer (I know, their frail bodies cannot contain the energies but I fail to see the difference between an elven abjurer and an elven mage memorizing only abjurations spells. It is one of worst explanations I have ever seen. If they cannot contain or control such spells how can they cast them at all?)
This is what I can remember off the top of my head. I will probably add to this later on when I recall other things I am in disagreement with.
-Echon
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"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
Edited by - Echon on 25 Nov 2002 12:36:50
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2002 : 16:14:12
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Hehehehe... Nice summary of what some people think 2e was about:
The rules saying mostly; "You can't do this, you can't do that..."
Just a quick reaction... I'll try to write something more elaborate in a next post (work is calling) |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2002 : 16:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Hehehehe... Nice summary of what some people think 2e was about:
The rules saying mostly; "You can't do this, you can't do that..."
I suppose so. Still, I do not like the way 3rd Ed. handles class creation. It is too unbalanced. Seems to me min/maxing is somewhat too obvious and tempting.
One of the few free class generation systems that work is that of The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (which is a CRPG so you may not be familiar with it). And this goes for Fallout as well.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2002 : 18:42:47
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<climbing on yet another soapbox>
Still not the post you were waiting for, but couldn't resist making a small comment on your reaction. You are referring to the min-maxing experience you see with 3e. However, I notice in your initial post a reference to DM's option High Level campaigns. This would suggest that you are at least somewhat familiar with the Player's Option books as well. Each his own opinion of course, but if there ever was a book which made min-maxing without balance possible, it were these three books IMO.
Aside from that, it is up to the DM to allow min-maxing or not. Just because the option exists, doesn't mean you'd have to allow it... Having played both systems (and of course 2nd ed much longer then 3rd), I would still disagree with you on the balancing factor. So far the classes, skills and options are more balanced then they have been.
In 2nd ed. for instance, the specialty priests of the various Realms gods were more powerfull then a cleric of the same level... Much broader spell choice and several granted powers that went beyond the abilities of the humble cleric...
Now there are of course pitfalls in 3rd ed. as well. When it comes down to designing templates and prestige classes, there is already a tendency to make characters more powerful.
<stepping down from soapbox> |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2002 : 22:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
<climbing on yet another soapbox>
Still not the post you were waiting for, but couldn't resist making a small comment on your reaction. You are referring to the min-maxing experience you see with 3e. However, I notice in your initial post a reference to DM's option High Level campaigns. This would suggest that you are at least somewhat familiar with the Player's Option books as well. Each his own opinion of course, but if there ever was a book which made min-maxing without balance possible, it were these three books IMO.
I am familiar with those three books. Let me comment on them:
Skills & Powers: I actually bought this book but was very disapointed by it. The *only* thing about it that I like are the sub-stats - I do not use anything else.
Spells & Magic: a great book all in all with alternate ways of handling magic. However, critical hits and knockdowns via spells is plain ridiculous.
Combat & Tactics: I like the weapon proficiency rules with mastery, fighting styles and armor- and shield proficency. I do not use the critical hit tables or anything else.
quote:
Aside from that, it is up to the DM to allow min-maxing or not. Just because the option exists, doesn't mean you'd have to allow it... Having played both systems (and of course 2nd ed much longer then 3rd), I would still disagree with you on the balancing factor. So far the classes, skills and options are more balanced then they have been.
I know. Perhaps I have been gaining a somewhat bad expression of 3rd Ed through Neverwinter Nights and Icewind Dale II - I do not know if they altered the rules.
quote:
In 2nd ed. for instance, the specialty priests of the various Realms gods were more powerfull then a cleric of the same level... Much broader spell choice and several granted powers that went beyond the abilities of the humble cleric...
Now there are of course pitfalls in 3rd ed. as well. When it comes down to designing templates and prestige classes, there is already a tendency to make characters more powerful.
<stepping down from soapbox>
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"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2002 : 09:10:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Echon
I know. Perhaps I have been gaining a somewhat bad expression of 3rd Ed through Neverwinter Nights and Icewind Dale II - I do not know if they altered the rules.
Ah, I see. No wonder your impression is about min-maxing. CRPG's no matter how much they emphasize the RP part of it are still far removed from a true Role-Playing game. The natural instinct of many seems to be geared towards min-maxing in such computer games, because they lack the ability to express characters otherwise.
No matter how well thought out a CRPG character might be, one never gets experience points for role-playing. Just swinging swords and casting spells to defeat monsters or solve some cryptic puzzle... if that is Role-Playing, then Doom, Duke Nukem & co are also RPG's...
The only advice I could provide is to give 3e a try in a table-top or a PbeM game. You'll find that it is not about min-maxing.
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2002 : 09:36:19
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quote:
one never gets experience points for role-playing.
That is not entirely true. In fact, that happens a lot in both Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate.
I do not think I am going to get into 3rd ed. AD&D 2nd ed is just starting to really evolve (knowing most of the rules off the top of my head and getting quite familiar with the Realms) and a lot of books have been bought. I would not want to start over again.
I am, however, going to give Vampire a try soon. |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
Edited by - Echon on 26 Nov 2002 09:36:57 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2002 : 18:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Echon
- The Creation of Magical Items
Which method do you use? The reason I am asking is because there are different rules (or variations of these rules) to be found in both Dungeons Master's Guide, Player's Option: Spells & Magic, Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, Dungeon Master's Option: High-level Campaigns and probably a few other books as well.
It is fine by me that creating these items is difficult and rather complicated but some of the examples I have seen are downright discouraging and way out of proportions - in my humble opinion.
One example I remember was the creation of a wand of fire - gathering the materials required traveling to the Plane of Fire to procure iron created by Efreets which then needed to be tempered by Red Dragon breath. All of this was previous to enchanting even.
Do you alter these rules in your own campaigns? And how, if applicable?
Depending on the type of item the character would attempt to create and depending on the type of campaign, I would choose the items necessary for the item in question. Most likely one or maybe two components would fit into the ‘difficult to obtain’ category as you have given some examples above. The original idea behind these requirements mentioned, have probably been constructed by the idea to create ‘immediate’ adventure opportunities for the party.
As to what method to use… I haven’t had to deal with a group of players of advanced enough levels yet to make magical items themselves. And having switched to 3e that has become a new challenge (again not very easy to understand/use rules for creating magical items) |
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DMing Issues
