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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 04:48:36
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Isn't it strange that, though all classes level up the same, their abilities are dependent on dissimilar factors? 1st-level characters are an easy example of this. A beginning wizard has studied for years to attain some magic, but a sorcerer just intuitively knows how to cast spells. Couldn't you have a six-year old sorcerer, while a wizard can't even cast a cantrip for years? I'm less sure about clerics and fighters. How long does it take to become a cleric or druid? Can it be a religious revelation that changes you in a few days, or are there years of study as an acolyte? And a novice fighter doesn't know much about fighting, so how much training does that take? Bards would probally take the longest, learning their diverse skills, and I suppose the delicate arts of a rouge need time to develop, but what about a psion? Game balance is important, of course, but is it logical to assume that the various professions take a similar amount of time/experience to evolve?
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 12:11:19
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A very intiguing question!
I too have wondered about class vs. age.
In novels it boils down to what sounds good - if a six=year-old is too powerful for her own good, then she SHOULD be a 15th level sorcerer (for example), but game mechanics say she needs time to get that good.
In creating a background for a N/PC... I would say that sorcerers tend to discover their powers at around puberty, (getting 1 level), but only rise in level if they come to understand their power,, irs source and how to use it. (Thus we might see quite a few confused 1st level sorcerers wandering the land).
Clerics I think would come from both backgrounds you mentioned. Some study to devote themselves... some are awakened. But again, like wiz/sors, I think the 'awakened' sort need to put some study down before they can level up.
Other than that... I really don't know. Again - very interesting topic.  |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 16:35:46
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| I just want to point out that Karsus learned to cast his first spell when he was some thing like 2 years old. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 17:45:52
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Indeed, Karsus cast his first cantrip, Light, at the young age of two. How he did this, however, remains a mystery...  |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 17:58:32
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| Also, though Steven Schend has since stated that he wishes he could undo his creation of the character (because of the direction that others decided to take him in), there was, in the City of Splendors boxed set, an 8 year old wizard named Gemidan. He was 3rd level, I believe, and already had created a couple of new spells. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 06:49:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I would say that sorcerers tend to discover their powers at around puberty, (getting 1 level), but only rise in level if they come to understand their power,, irs source and how to use it. (Thus we might see quite a few confused 1st level sorcerers wandering the land).
Keep in mind, though, that sorcerers shouldn't be as heavily retconned as WotC has made them. All they said regarding the way it changed things was that "there have always been sorcerers -- no one really noticed."
Sorry, it's just that I came up with a two-layered fix off the cuff that, while it's far from deep, is worlds better than what they tried. Sure, to the commoner (who, after all, is the normal inhabitant of the Realms) there's no real difference between sorcerers and wizards. Same spells, same familiars, etc., etc.
First, my fix deals with how rare a sorcerer is. Assuming that the powers come with puberty (a traditional time for powers to come, both in fiction and folklore), you have a child with the instability of adolesance coupled with the power a wizard takes years to learn. This is where the commoner-class character takes on a Sorcerer level O, or an apprentice level.
In a system of magic that I had developed for an old story of mine, disrupted spells become wild magic. Since this doesn't happen in D&D, when I was creating an in-character exploration of D&D magic I assumed that disrupted spells have to disapate somehow. Instead of just saying that it disapears, I assumed that wizards are taught to re-channel the power into the Weave if they can't control it any other way.
That led to an assumption that most sorcerers actually kill themselves by accident before they regain control. While I like the old "dragon/outsider-blood" idea for the source of power, I don't want it to be the only source of background flavor, so I used this to explain why sorcerers are rare.
However, enough sorcerers are surviving that they're becoming well-known; not only does this slightly increase chances that some kid recognizes what's going on with him, it also leads to my second fix: why you can multiclass into the sorcerer class. The PHB says it's in your blood, but all you need in gameplay is a Charisma of 10 or higher. So I assumed that you can learn sorcery by establishing a connection to the Weave, whether through meditation or something similar. Since sorcery is intuitive, you don't have to actually understand what you're dealing with, just recognize it. This allows people with high intuition (high Charisma) to learn what others are born to.
Just thought I'd throw in a few coppers . . . . |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 07:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Keep in mind, though, that sorcerers shouldn't be as heavily retconned as WotC has made them. All they said regarding the way it changed things was that "there have always been sorcerers -- no one really noticed."
That one bit right there is my single biggest complaint about the way 3E was inflicted on the Realms.  |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 10:24:57
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I second everything you mentioned, Bookwyrm, expect...
*cowers*
I actually think 3e sorcerers make quite a lot of sense.
*runs*  |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 15:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I second everything you mentioned, Bookwyrm, expect...
*cowers*
I actually think 3e sorcerers make quite a lot of sense.
*runs*
Oh, I quite like sorcerers, don't get me wrong. It's just the way they were shoved into the Realms that bothers me. Had sorcerers been a new development, that would be one thing. But to say there's a character class around that no one's noticed before is pushing it -- especially when NPCs previously statted out as wizards are suddenly sorcerers instead. |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:17:03
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I hate to be a disenting figure as well, but I like how they handled sorcerers in 3E. I'm VERY pleased that they didn't come up with some plot line that explained why sorcerers now exist in the game. I can only assume it would be something lame such as Mystra burping or the Seven Sisters doing some naked ritual-dance to increase the power of the Weave. I think that some NPCs have always fit better under the idea of what a sorcerer is instead of a wizard. It makes sense. If you suddenly created sorcerers, then all the old NPCs would be wizards and only new NPCs would be sorcerers.
Back to the original topic, I am under the impression that it takes a while for sorcerers to learn and control their own magic. So, while a wizard might spend years learning draconic and small cantrips, a sorcerer is spending years controlling the frightening power that courses through their bodies. While wizards might start off a little older, I wouldn't make it that much of a difference. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
I hate to be a disenting figure as well, but I like how they handled sorcerers in 3E. I'm VERY pleased that they didn't come up with some plot line that explained why sorcerers now exist in the game. I can only assume it would be something lame such as Mystra burping or the Seven Sisters doing some naked ritual-dance to increase the power of the Weave. I think that some NPCs have always fit better under the idea of what a sorcerer is instead of a wizard. It makes sense. If you suddenly created sorcerers, then all the old NPCs would be wizards and only new NPCs would be sorcerers.
So... To you it makes sense that people listed as wizards for the last 10 years of products are now sorcerers? And it makes sense that without explanation, there's suddenly a new character class available?
They could have explained it away without doing something lame. To me, the "they were always there, but no one noticed" is the part that's lame. How does something like that go unnoticed? |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:31:58
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If you notice, there are some old wizards that are actually described as sorcerers. One example is Talantar (or something close to it). She's a tall sorcereress from Tantras who is known for her long topknot of hair, though she is described as being a wizard. She is known for being a bit crazy and riding griffons around dwarven ruins and such. To me, it makes much more sense that she always was a sorcerer and to create her as such. I mean, she has to be retooled or detailed to make 3E anyways. Why not change the class?
So, yeah, it does make sense to me that people who have been listed as wizards for the past 10 years are now sorcerers. It fits their personality more. Also, I have to admit that I don't use the iconic FR characters in any of my games, so learning that the Simbul is now a sorcereress doesn't effect me one wit. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
I can only assume it would be something lame such as Mystra burping or the Seven Sisters doing some naked ritual-dance to increase the power of the Weave.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 19:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
If you notice, there are some old wizards that are actually described as sorcerers. One example is Talantar (or something close to it). She's a tall sorcereress from Tantras who is known for her long topknot of hair, though she is described as being a wizard. She is known for being a bit crazy and riding griffons around dwarven ruins and such. To me, it makes much more sense that she always was a sorcerer and to create her as such. I mean, she has to be retooled or detailed to make 3E anyways. Why not change the class?
So, yeah, it does make sense to me that people who have been listed as wizards for the past 10 years are now sorcerers. It fits their personality more. Also, I have to admit that I don't use the iconic FR characters in any of my games, so learning that the Simbul is now a sorcereress doesn't effect me one wit.
I will agree that certain characters are far better suited to be sorcerers, especially with the way they are described. The Simbul is a perfect example.
But what I have a problem with is that before 3E, all arcane spellcasters were wizards or some variant thereof. Changing certain existing and well-established characters from one class to another, with no explanation, is where my problem lies. Sure, it may fit better, but it invalidates years of established Realmslore.
If there had been any explanation for the re-casting of these characters, then I would be a lot happier.
And new sorcerers are a similar thing. How did we wind up with a totally new kind of spellcaster, which was supposedly always there, but was never noticed before?
I'm not as much concerned with the Realms changing. Change is good -- so long as it's explained. Unexplained change is not good. Sorcerers are an unexplained change. |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 20:07:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I will agree that certain characters are far better suited to be sorcerers, especially with the way they are described. The Simbul is a perfect example.
But what I have a problem with is that before 3E, all arcane spellcasters were wizards or some variant thereof. Changing certain existing and well-established characters from one class to another, with no explanation, is where my problem lies. Sure, it may fit better, but it invalidates years of established Realmslore.
If there had been any explanation for the re-casting of these characters, then I would be a lot happier.
And new sorcerers are a similar thing. How did we wind up with a totally new kind of spellcaster, which was supposedly always there, but was never noticed before?
I'm not as much concerned with the Realms changing. Change is good -- so long as it's explained. Unexplained change is not good. Sorcerers are an unexplained change.
I'm a big lover of the interaction between D&D rules and FR, but I do think that this is a case of realising that 2e didn't cover certain aspects of the game, and that if rules are a way of explaining characters (and not the other way around, as WotC seem to generally deal with it) then there may be better ways to explain them.
I agree that change should be explained, but then again - where? The FRCS was the main tome that converted 2e wizards into sorcerers, and as Ed has said - there was neither the time nor the space for ANYTHING extra to be put in there. And I can think of more vital things left out than why this Seven Sister is now a sorcerer.
Just my opinion. I, as everyone on these boards, I'm sure, would of course like there to be space for such things, but us even ne'er content fans have to be realistic sometimes! |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 20:14:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not as much concerned with the Realms changing. Change is good -- so long as it's explained. Unexplained change is not good. Sorcerers are an unexplained change.
Have to agree, which is probably why I don't like the new planes because its another, "It's always been this way." Or the Star elves, "They have aways been there." or Xara being turned evil, "She was always that way because I needed a evil NPC in Silverymoon." Etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 20:34:50
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Perhaps it is just because of my age, or the haphazard way I learned to game, but I have few problems with the change.
In fact, I quite frequently "patch" my game. WHen a new book comes out, and were it available at the time of character creation something would have been taken from it, I alter reality around the change. The "it has always been that way" is quite apt, for it always has. From the perspective of the characters.
A FR fan wit haverage mastery of lore knows more than many of the greatest sages of the realms on certain subjects. I loved sorcerers, so I altered my npcs to be sorcerers where appropriate. Sometimes it had a few glitches with continuity, but nothing I couldn't handle.
I have no qualms with accepting the Symbul asa sorceress, for example, and just altering the lore about her to fit that. The changes are minor, and just seem to fit.
I mean, this is a fictional game world, not an actual look at history here. Also as previously mentioned, the difference between sorcerer and wizard is not great to most observers.
Heck, I added in a new race(The Lupines), and at least one new deity(Bahamut) into the realms to fit the concepts of two of my players. It was not that rough. Working in the margins, and in unexplored corners I was able to add it in. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 20:53:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Have to agree, which is probably why I don't like the new planes because its another, "It's always been this way." Or the Star elves, "They have aways been there." or Xara being turned evil, "She was always that way because I needed a evil NPC in Silverymoon." Etc.
I understand. I'm at the point where with each new FR gaming product, I expect to find a new class, race, subrace, etc. and the ever handy explanation of, "they have always been there," as the reason for their inclusion. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 00:40:21
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| Sorcerers just blow. I've ignored the durned class since the release of 3E in 2000... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 00:55:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Sorcerers just blow. I've ignored the durned class since the release of 3E in 2000...
Why do you not like the class? I think it a very versatile class, and I prefer sorcerers to wizards. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 02:02:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why do you not like the class? I think it a very versatile class, and I prefer sorcerers to wizards.
The class certainly provides a player wonderful opportunities for creating a background to explain a sorcerer's powers. |
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Jarren Longblade
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 04:36:20
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| When 3e first came out I thought the Sorcerer was going to be a great class, Not having to memorize spells, know a few spells and cast which one you need, But I have had PC play a Sorcerer various times so they dont have to bother with spell memorization, only to realize that they don't know enough spells, and wind up carrying around stacks of scrolls because they cannot scribe them into a book to memorize later, and dont want to use the spell in case they need it later. Also I have seen Sorcerer/Wizard classes is it just me or does that seem a little Redundant. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 05:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why do you not like the class? I think it a very versatile class, and I prefer sorcerers to wizards.
The class certainly provides a player wonderful opportunities for creating a background to explain a sorcerer's powers.
There!!! right there!! that's exactly why I hate the durn class! everyone who has it has now some elven, dragon, or solar blood to explain why they can fling a cantrip or two around. We hatess themm!!! *cough* GOLLUM! *cough*cough* |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 05:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
There!!! right there!! that's exactly why I hate the durn class! everyone who has it has now some elven, dragon, or solar blood to explain why they can fling a cantrip or two around. We hatess themm!!! *cough* GOLLUM! *cough*cough*
Okay then. I take it I shouldn't put the Quintessential Sorcerer into your stocking for X-Mas. |
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Artalis
Senior Scribe
USA
444 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 05:57:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jarren Longblade
When 3e first came out I thought the Sorcerer was going to be a great class, Not having to memorize spells, know a few spells and cast which one you need, But I have had PC play a Sorcerer various times so they dont have to bother with spell memorization, only to realize that they don't know enough spells, and wind up carrying around stacks of scrolls because they cannot scribe them into a book to memorize later, and dont want to use the spell in case they need it later. Also I have seen Sorcerer/Wizard classes is it just me or does that seem a little Redundant.
AHEM!
OK here we go. Sorcery and Wizardry are two entirely separate things.
Same spells different mechanisms. One could use that same logic to say that trucks and cars are redundant since they both get you where you need to go.
Sorcery is the spirit's way to the art. It is intuitive based on passion and personal will and native talent. A sorcerer's powers have nothing to do with anything else. They ARE part of him.
A Wizard on the other hand is a scholar, someone who delves into the art with his mind. Seeking to understand and to KNOW the Art. In that case it's all about intelligence memorization and disciplined study.
In case your wondering I have played a wizard/sorcerer multiclass. He's a very deeply detailed fellow too you can find a slightly outdated version of him here
His love of magic runs deep and his aptitude even further. He was doubly blessed by Mystra with the gift for sorcery and wizardry and he seeks to understand magic in all it's forms.
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Artalis
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 06:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
The class certainly provides a player wonderful opportunities for creating a background to explain a sorcerer's powers.
There!!! right there!! that's exactly why I hate the durn class! everyone who has it has now some elven, dragon, or solar blood to explain why they can fling a cantrip or two around. We hatess themm!!! *cough* GOLLUM! *cough*cough*
Heh, not the sorceror I played. He had no clue how or why he could do it and didn't really care less. He'd far rather tend bar than worry about the source of his magic. It used to drive the wizard in our party nuts. The only real downside is that eventually the party caught on that he didn't need to spend an extra four hours a night "preparing spells" (read getting extra sleep here).
Sarta |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 08:33:01
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I agree with Sarta. I simply ignore, for the most part, the draconic blood part. I don't need to know why it works, only that it does.
Actually, I don't really like the draconic blood explanation... |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 08:42:25
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I must confess to throwing out the explanation for the most part, as well.
Unless either I or the character thinks it is important for there to be a certain bloodline(acquiring a template midgame, perhaps) we just say "there's magic in the veins", and leave it at that.
Now, I hyave tinkered with the tables and whatnot in a dragon issue for background for npc sorcerers, but that is about it. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 10:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
There!!! right there!! that's exactly why I hate the durn class! everyone who has it has now some elven, dragon, or solar blood to explain why they can fling a cantrip or two around. We hatess themm!!! *cough* GOLLUM! *cough*cough*
Okay then. I take it I shouldn't put the Quintessential Sorcerer into your stocking for X-Mas.
Most assuredly not. I'd much rather have that auto-cleaning top of the line Braun shaver... or the latest Zero 7 CD.
To be completely honest with everyone here, I must add that none of my players have ever selected that class, I haven't selected that class, and no one I know would go for it. Perhaps if it had d6? but even then, poor excuse for a class. I felt that WotC was very lazy on this one. I could think of other ways to emulate "that sorcerer" or "witch" feeling... spontaneous casting of spells known is just so bland and devoid of character. Maybe if they'd need intoxicants to achieve higher spell slots? or maybe if they'd need to eat a big black rotten egg, make a successful Fort save, and then make geysers erupt from the earth to cook enemies with steam? but no... same as a wizard, but without the coolness of a spellbook and the bookish attitude.
Man, we're far from the day where one of my favourite character was a big hunk of a farmer who got drunk one night in the hayloft, and between drunken songs, repeated the words written on a page he found lying on the ditch at the edge of his field... only to find that he had conjured something shedding blue lights and making weird noises, spooking all the pigs and chicken away down below. Ah... wizardry. Where everyone *can*. No one is special. Lather, rinse, repeat... and something happens.
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 10:53:54
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I find in your argument several excellent points. Every sorcerer in my game has been altered to have something resembling flavor.
As an alternative I have begun using the The Witch/Warlock where appropriate, and have had essentially no complications. Of course I had to dance around with the realmslore a bit, but I already do that to use 2e books anyway. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 12:21:17
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Wooly, I think that the FR has been around and has it's story, but the rules failed to properly convey the world in a decent set of rules. To change certain NPCs to sorcerer isn't a big deal. In fact, it feels more right then it did before. Is it really such a big problem to change NPCs? I can see if a certain NPC is part of the campaign world and it is a big thing to change that person, but if it is just someone that perhaps might get mentioned in the game world? Or if the players haven't even met that person yet? Then I see no problem with continuity to just change them to sorcerer. But that is just me.
As for sorcerers not having flavor...they sure do in the games I have played. I think the dragon blood is not very original and I perfer not to use it. There has been one sorcerer who was quite insane and told everyone that "the pixies taught me magic". This guy was worried that extra-dimensional creatures were out to get him and the pixies taught him magic to defend himself. We thought this guy was whack....until extra-dimensional creatures DID come to get him! It turns out he workd it out with the DM ahead of time and didn't tell any of us. It was quite a suprise.
There was a Dragon magazine that came out right when 3E came about. It had a bunch of reasons for being a sorcerer. You could sell your soul to a demonic type creature....or a good creature. You could server an elemental power. There could always be a fey connection of a myriad sorts. Freak magical accident can cause sorcerery. There were a lot of ways and I have seen many played to good effect. |
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A question of class...
