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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jun 2004 : 20:12:08
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I'm not sure if anyone has ever tried to cross a Baatezu and an Celestial before... I may have forgotten, but is there a race that deals with this question? Or shall I have to invent my own again... 
My ideas: The beauty of a Celestial, the temper of a Fiend, Pure Golden Skin mixed with Flaming Red Hair, and Deep Black Eyes with Golden Pupils. Possible Alignments would probably be any of the lawful, seeing as how Celestials are Lawful Good, and Baatezu are Lawful Evil... Though this may make the offspring take on a more neutral role, desiring not to choose one side or the other....
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The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2004 : 20:18:57
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Pure Law. If you don't like their rules get out or die! Could be interesting. Not these two specifically, but something similar may exist if I can find it.
**wanders off into the scrolls** |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36966 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 03:42:16
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| I'd likely expect such a mixed-breed critter to be some flavor of neutral, and/or insane from the mixed blood. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 12:18:49
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I'll quote my answer to a similar question from the WotC boards, way back when (what would happen if Gargauth, pre-Godhood, had a child with a celestial - a thought that inspired me to incorporate the child into my FR):
quote:
Question:
If Gargauth in his wandering off the Nine Hells and before setting cloven foot on the material plane had a child with a celestial (by beeing disguised as one AND for corruption purpose), what would that child be ?
keeping in mind that fiendish cannot be applied to a good aligned creature and vice-versa and that half-celestial and half-fiend cannot be both on the same creature, I can't find anything that would fit...
My Answer:
Well the points are that:
1. Gargauth wasn't a deity when he was banished from the Nine Hells. He was just a deposed Lord of the Nine - so unless one plays the 'Archdemon/Demon Lord = DvR 0' or similar rules, then the offspring would not be a deity, a quasi-deity or a demigod.
2. There is no mention in any book of the possibility of a celestial and a fiend bearing offspring together being conceivable (hey - I made a pun!) - even if there should (I personally think it would be a cool possibility, if a rare one). So this is assuming that such a thing is possible.
3. You cannot add the half-fiend or fiendish template to anything with a good alignment, and you cannot add the half-celestial or celestial template to anything with evil alignment. As each of these changes the alignment to 'Always evil/good' they - as has been mentioned - cancel each other out and cannot be put together.
5. The outcome could depend on who gave birth to the offspring. In this case, Gargauth being male (I think!... I haven't looked! ;-) ) then the mother would be the celestial. In a lot of 2e products and some 3e products it mattered which was which - such as a orc male and ogre female would create an orog, and a orc female and ogre male would produce an ogrillon. This probably doesn't apply here, though - unless the celestial kept it AND it stayed with the celestial, which seems unlikely.
4. The only conceivable possibility then is that the offspring would be a unique outsider (as this is an extraordinary birth anyway, that makes sense). Alignment subtypes would cancel each other out (giving it both evil and good subtypes is a stupid idea). So it would just be outsider (extraplanar) if you play 3.5 and it was born not on the material plane, and outsider or outsider (native) if you play 3.0 or it was born on the Material Plane respectively.
5. Going with the unique outsider theme it seems most likely its alignment would be neutral on the evil/good axis, and would be lawful on the lawful/chaotic axis if the celestial was lawful good or neutral good, and True Neutral if the celestial was chaotic good. This might vary if you think the celestial mothers' influence turned it good, or if the taint of evil has such a strong father that it corruputed him. No doubt, whatever the alignment, this guy/gal/it is going to be pretty messed up.
6. Other than that, I'd make the outsider super-powerful (CR 5+ at least, probably about 10), with a mix of abilities from Gargauth (not his divine abilities), and the celestial. It might hate its father or seek to meet and join him, or it might even OBTAIN a DvR 0+ and start on the way to godhood.
Hope that helps.
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Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 06 Jun 2004 12:19:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 09:55:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
I'm not sure if anyone has ever tried to cross a Baatezu and an Celestial before... I may have forgotten, but is there a race that deals with this question? Or shall I have to invent my own again...
My ideas: The beauty of a Celestial, the temper of a Fiend, Pure Golden Skin mixed with Flaming Red Hair, and Deep Black Eyes with Golden Pupils. Possible Alignments would probably be any of the lawful, seeing as how Celestials are Lawful Good, and Baatezu are Lawful Evil... Though this may make the offspring take on a more neutral role, desiring not to choose one side or the other....
It should come as no surprise to most here that this is also something I have attempted in my campaigns...
That being said, although my effort was a marginal success, I cannot post it here since it was a EN World collaborative work up. However, I can discuss it through the ever efficient ethereal mail service. So, Shadowlord, email me with what you have, and I'll try and return some of the ideas I've used, (hopefully  )without stepping on too many toes...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 10:19:38
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| Sage - not step on those ever-sensitive feet, but would you send the work my way also? I'd be very interested to see the ideas. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 10:34:49
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I will indeed . Just let me see what Shadowlord has come up with first.
I'd provide an URL to the appropriate EN World thread, but the moderators over there recently performed a forum purge of all the old threads...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 10:18:05
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I'd like to see what you have as well Shadowlord. Could you send what you have to me as well?
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Fireheart
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 16:48:10
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Me three! This sounds like an amazing role-playing opportunity (or evil DM moment)...would you shoot me what you have as well?
~Fireheart |
I believe in what I see/I believe in what I hear/I believe that what I'm feeling/Changes how the world appears
-Rush "Totem" |
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AutoSponge
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 01:15:05
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IMHO the two races are mutually exclusive and unable to mate. Saying that the two alignments cancel out is a little simplistic. Nothing suggests that ANY extraplanar beings can produce offspring with other EXTRAPLANAR beings (that I know of). It's simply not how new extraplanars are 'made' (maybe excepting their own kind of course but even then extraplanars are suppose to be formed from petitioner souls).
I can see where a celestial mated with a native outsider (half-fiend) in which case the result would be 1/4 fiend and 1/2 celestial (teifling with half-celestial template). But, as stated the character would have to be good. Flip this around for the opposite (half-fiend template on an aasimar). |
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Fireheart
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 14:23:11
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quote:
Originally posted by AutoSponge
IMHO the two races are mutually exclusive and unable to mate. Saying that the two alignments cancel out is a little simplistic. Nothing suggests that ANY extraplanar beings can produce offspring with other EXTRAPLANAR beings (that I know of). It's simply not how new extraplanars are 'made' (maybe excepting their own kind of course but even then extraplanars are suppose to be formed from petitioner souls).
I'm curious, is it a "mechanics/physical" issue or the good vs evil that for you prevents the mating? Reason I ask, with the inclusion of the Book of Exalted Deeds, the possibility of a redeemed character is there. I could see a backstory around a devil falling in love with a angel and becoming good in order to be with her/him...therefore allowing the creation of a child with both aspects of his parents. (I'm seeing shades of Incarnations of Immortality here...)
I know this would probably have to be houseruled, but from a gaming perspective, if the child was truly nuetral, could you apply both templates (say to a human base?)?
~Fireheart |
I believe in what I see/I believe in what I hear/I believe that what I'm feeling/Changes how the world appears
-Rush "Totem" |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 14:43:08
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I don't think fiends can ever be 'redeemed' out of their own choice, or by being persuaded. When it happens, only magic - powerful magic - should suffice.
Autosponge - extraplanar outsiders having children together has been detailed before, in various 2e / d20 planescape and sex sourcebooks. Devils are normally created when someone's soul is sent to the Nine Hells, becomes a petitioner (i.e. lemure) and is eventually 'promoted' to a higher level of existence (i.e. another kind of devil). Same with demons/celestials etc. However, Erinyes, for example, are only created from where they originally came from (fallen angels according to the Monster Manual) or by mating. And of course fiends and celestials mate with mortals all the time.
However, when it comes down to fiends mating with celestials (or chaos outsiders mating with law outsiders, for that matter), it is down to you or the DM. I personally think it is interesting enough to allow, but to make sure that these are unique, history-changing events. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2004 : 17:04:34
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| Dragon #297 describes the Axani, which are the offspring of a human and a lawful outsider. So, they would not be near as powerful as the result from a Baatezu and a Celestial. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2004 : 19:00:40
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It was my understanding that the Axani were essentially the plane touched race of Lawful Outsider descent, equivelent to a Tiefling.
I always find issues with the "always alignment x" arguments in cases like this, and am of the opinion that the racial alignments are at best a strong predeliction towards a single alignment, rather than an absolute trait, like physical features. (And even then there are still abberations!)
If I remember correctly there was a dragon issue detailing an organization of fallen celestials and risen fiends that met on the middle ground of neutrality. I think, and I might be mistaken, that it detailed a relationship between a fiend and celestial. I will check my stacks, and see i it is so and get back to you.
For one thing, though, I am of the belief that of the alignments for risen fiends LN Baatezu, and CG Tanar'ri are more common than most, if not all other variations, because of the nature of the very beings. I assume that for the most part risen fiends(for whatever reason) can only exist in certain numbers of alignment based on how rare they would be. THe chaotic nature of the demon leads me to believe that good among their kind would be more common than good among the devils.
With the Baatezu, it is not so far a stretch to me that more than a few pit fiends over the years have found the benefits o having LN associatesthat are trustworthy to not screw you over in ways their LE counterparts never could be.
Now while not common by any means, risen fiends(and certainly fallen celestials) d ocrop up. However I am not willing to make any generic beings like this. They all have to either be PCs(with a pretty dang good reason!) or "name" npcs. By that I mean the NPCs you invest nearly as much time and effort into as most players do their characters. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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AutoSponge
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 23:35:18
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"Reason I ask, with the inclusion of the Book of Exalted Deeds, the possibility of a redeemed character is there."
The few paragraphs this book devotes to off-handed remarks about a character archtype where outsiders aren't discussed in any terms whatsoever isn't going to make me think for an instant that celestials could successfully mate with fiends.
As a rule this sort of thing should not be allowed. However, deities being nigh-omnipotent and such and having mysterious ways and such I can see a single, unique individual being created more from the will of a deity or deities than from the outsiders themselves. Something akin to the 'great plan' or destiny scenario rather than a generic race springing forth from the extraplanar union. Furthermore I'd make the character a 'mule' (unable to mate successfully at all). |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 09:42:43
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Ahh, but 1 in 500 mules are able to breed.
But I definitely agree. THis kind of thing should be kept on a very short leash. I like having my fiends evil and my celestials good. If there was a creature that was a cross between the two, I imagine that it should be a very unique being. None of these things should be a race.
Unless of course one was to populate a small settlement on a plane of neutrality with them. IT would likely be as forever under attack by the Celestials(for tainting their kin) as the fiends(for tainting their kin). COuld be very interesting to see them living between the cracks.
I have been unable to find that article, but I do have a fair amount of my mags loaned out at the moment, so it could be in one of them. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Fireheart
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 20:37:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
They all have to either be PCs(with a pretty dang good reason!) or "name" npcs. By that I mean the NPCs you invest nearly as much time and effort into as most players do their characters.
Thanks. I think a unique or rare being would definitely be the case for me. I'm kind of thinking of using this character as an NPC in a game...she (it?) would worship Ohgma (kind of a Nuetral (with a capital N) Loremaster-type character. I'm thinking of setting it up so the characters think this being is the BBEG only to find out that it's being set up by greater powers (of which I still have to work out.)
(If that article ever reappears, would you mind dropping me a line? - I am so going to have to break down and suscribe to Dragon.)
Thanks for the thoughts.
~Fireheart |
I believe in what I see/I believe in what I hear/I believe that what I'm feeling/Changes how the world appears
-Rush "Totem" |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2004 : 22:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Fireheart
[quote]Originally posted by Capn Charlie
(If that article ever reappears, would you mind dropping me a line? - I am so going to have to break down and suscribe to Dragon.)
Thanks for the thoughts.
~Fireheart
I too know the horror of agonising over this decision! You are not alone, comrade!
On-topic - Yeah, as I said before, such a being should exist only by a cruel tiwst of fate (whether that it is just preophecised, magicked into being, or willed by a deity - they all work), and should be unique. Good plot hooks should never be condemned. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Logan Featherfeet
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 05:11:41
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| if belzebub has a child this idea is quite possible. he was a solor before he fell and became one of the lords of the nine. might take a bit of figuring out exactly what the creature would be though. |
When in doubt, shoot a random person. It's likely their fault your confused in the first place, and it'll make you feel better about the situation. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36966 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2004 : 05:24:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Logan Featherfeet
if belzebub has a child this idea is quite possible. he was a solor before he fell and became one of the lords of the nine. might take a bit of figuring out exactly what the creature would be though.
In this specific case, I'd start with a base solar. I'd replace all his/her good abilities (and alignment, obviously) with evil variants, and maybe toss in a new ability or two to liven things up. Assuming there was a mother, I'd add in some of her features, too, either as additional abilities or replacements (or even unique combinations).
Physically, I'd start with a solar, and add some demonic traits from the father and maybe something from the mother. Tattered but still functional wings, etc...
Keep in mind I'm not familiar with the guy in question, though. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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chosenofvelsharoon
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2004 : 21:53:32
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it seems to me like alignment changes an outsider's form.
ex:
the corrupted creature template(book of vile darkness), changes stats, as well as physical form.
When baalzebul fell from grace he changed from an archon, to a wingless humanoid with the eyes of a fly(book of vile darkness)
jovoc's (mm2) are hinted to be tranformed gnomes, tortured until the massive amounts of evil take over
while it doesn't look like they can't mate (half templates can be applied to any corporeal creature) i would say that the alignment would be up to the dm. I personally would give an alignment, and then give powers based on those (ie, evil ussually gets fire/cold resist, good ussually gets immune disease, acid/cold/electricity resist) a neutral character probably wouldn't get smite, unless it was smite lawful or something for a chaotic character.
"and naught shall be left save shattered thrones, with none to rule them but the dead" |
~chosen of Velsharoon
"and naught shall be left, saved shattered throwns with none to rule them but the dead." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 08:00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Logan Featherfeet
if belzebub has a child this idea is quite possible. he was a solor before he fell and became one of the lords of the nine. might take a bit of figuring out exactly what the creature would be though.
Bel has had a child... The only answer I can give though as to why very few know about it is... Asmodeus. The Lord of the Nine has some particularly vile plans for this offspring of one of the fellow Nine. Unfortunately, this little detail was one of the threads that were lost when PS was cancelled.
There are rumors however that both Asmodeus and his plans (for the Bel-child?) are mentioned in brief in the upcoming Planar Handbook.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 14:21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
There are rumors however that both Asmodeus and his plans (for the Bel-child?) are mentioned in brief in the upcoming Planar Handbook.
Quick someone call the fire brigade! Sage is overheating with glee! |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 14:36:58
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Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I have no intention of purchasing the Planar Handbook anytime soon, even after it's initial release.
I'm content to continue using my PS material... it's always served my needs. Other than that, I'll probably be taking Monte's Beyond Countless Doorways cosmology into consideration before I look at WotC's revised planar framework.
And finally, I still have my own 'planar-project' that I've been working on. I mentioned some specific points of this cosmology several months ago in the 'General' section of Candlekeep. Sarelle, if you're interested, I suggest you take a look. Or, you can wait until it's published. Once my work on the combat and psionics supplement at RoE has been completed, I'm looking to submit my own planar-framework for publication.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2004 : 19:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, I wouldn't go that far. I have no intention of purchasing the Planar Handbook anytime soon, even after it's initial release.
I'm content to continue using my PS material... it's always served my needs. Other than that, I'll probably be taking Monte's Beyond Countless Doorways cosmology into consideration before I look at WotC's revised planar framework.
And finally, I still have my own 'planar-project' that I've been working on. I mentioned some specific points of this cosmology several months ago in the 'General' section of Candlekeep. Sarelle, if you're interested, I suggest you take a look. Or, you can wait until it's published. Once my work on the combat and psionics supplement at RoE has been completed, I'm looking to submit my own planar-framework for publication.
Will do!  |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2005 : 09:00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
I'm not sure if anyone has ever tried to cross a Baatezu and an Celestial before... I may have forgotten, but is there a race that deals with this question? Or shall I have to invent my own again...
My ideas: The beauty of a Celestial, the temper of a Fiend, Pure Golden Skin mixed with Flaming Red Hair, and Deep Black Eyes with Golden Pupils. Possible Alignments would probably be any of the lawful, seeing as how Celestials are Lawful Good, and Baatezu are Lawful Evil... Though this may make the offspring take on a more neutral role, desiring not to choose one side or the other....
The Epic Level Handbook has the "Infernal" on page 164 -- the offspring of a deity and a fiend. CR 26 if I recall correctly, 40 HD, lawful or chaotic evil.
It's curious that the offspring of a good deity and a fiend is automatically assumed to be evil. I guess Wizards doesn't want to strain the role-playing capabilities of some people by asking them to assume that a half-fiend might be anything other than a source of experience points. (The assumption is that the divine parent was seduced by the fiendish parent. Again, I suppose that WOTC thought that it was too tasking to assume that a good or a neutral deity might just want to go to town with some hot little erinyes or succubus.) |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
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Baatezu/Celestial Offspring...
