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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2005 : 23:24:46
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I know of one deity (non-canon) in my campaign that would gather up the pieces, never assemble it though, and hide the pieces in a nice safe place.
I can actually see several deities trying to do that -- simply out of self-preservation. If I was a deity, I'd have my agents find the pieces (if they could) and bring them back to my domain. I'd bury one or two pieces in the deepest darkest hole in my domain, plant a mountain on top of it, cast 18,000 spells on it to secure it, and then put enough physical traps on it to make Mask think long and hard about trying to steal it.
Then I'd hand the remaining pieces off to a couple of my deific allies, and tell them to do the same thing.  |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2005 : 03:18:56
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I actually do not understand why no deity has searched for the item. I mean, it's not exactly protected from scrying like the Cyrinishad was in the hands of Rina.
Just possessing the item would give an evil deity leverage against his enemies or allies by threatening to use the thing. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2005 : 03:51:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I actually do not understand why no deity has searched for the item. I mean, it's not exactly protected from scrying like the Cyrinishad was in the hands of Rina.
Just possessing the item would give an evil deity leverage against his enemies or allies by threatening to use the thing.
How do we know there's not divine agents scouring the multiverse for it, as we speak? 
Besides, most artifacts are protected from scrying by deities... It's usually not written into their description, but these are things that can affect the gods...
And about your evil deity: they're just as likely to be affected by it as is any deity they threaten. It's not an effective threat when it could backfire against you or harm someone who's not even there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Sep 2005 03:53:03 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2005 : 04:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I actually do not understand why no deity has searched for the item. I mean, it's not exactly protected from scrying like the Cyrinishad was in the hands of Rina.
Just possessing the item would give an evil deity leverage against his enemies or allies by threatening to use the thing.
How do we know there's not divine agents scouring the multiverse for it, as we speak?
Besides, most artifacts are protected from scrying by deities... It's usually not written into their description, but these are things that can affect the gods...
And about your evil deity: they're just as likely to be affected by it as is any deity they threaten. It's not an effective threat when it could backfire against you or harm someone who's not even there.
Also, since you can't choose what god it affects.
Scenario:
Talos and his cronies are gathered together. Talos has the Scepter.
The Good Gods show up demanding that Talos hand over the Scepter.
Talos uses the Scepter (Himself, one of his cronies, or any other 1 god is affected), the rest of the gods go up and beat him silly and take it away. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2005 : 07:18:56
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True true, but sometimes the gains outweighs the risk. There's so many deities in the pantheons that surely a god is willing to take this chance to weaken another deity.
Besides, if an evil god's crony gets affected, the evil deity wouldn't even hesitate to betray him. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2005 : 15:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
True true, but sometimes the gains outweighs the risk. There's so many deities in the pantheons that surely a god is willing to take this chance to weaken another deity.
Besides, if an evil god's crony gets affected, the evil deity wouldn't even hesitate to betray him.
Does it, in this case? Bane takes the Scepter, threatens to use it against Torm... and Bane himself is affected. Ooops.
Or Bane takes the Scepter, threatens to use it against Torm... And a member of the Celestial Beauracracy falls silent. Ooops.
In either case, Bane just made a fool of himself, and now Torm knows who has the Scepter -- and so will everyone else he tells. Torm would likely call a group meeting right them, and everyone would come down on Bane for using it.
And if it had worked, what would Bane have gained? Okay, so Torm would have no influence on Toril only for ten days. He'd still have influence elsewhere -- and he'd be able to do something like send some divine servants to Selūne (the moon itself), tell them to make their own way to the Realms, and say something to keep his followers happy for a few days. He could also ask any of his divine allies to cover for him.
At most, he'd be weakened a bit -- but not enough for him to be an easy victory for Bane.
Trying to use the Scepter as a weapon against a particularly deity is like taking three decks of cards, mixing them up, and then trying to -- on one try, without looking -- draw a specific 9 of hearts. Not any of the three 9s of hearts, but specifically the one from the second deck. It can be done, sure. But the odds are seriously against it happening... And if you do succeed, you've simply got a card in your hand. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Sep 2005 16:00:56 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 09:42:57
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Great Reader Dargoth,
quote:
What exactly does the Sceptre of the Sorcerer Kings do? (I dont have the 2ed book book where its detailed).
It turns once decent wizards into murdering thieves, lol.
quote:
With regard to putting it back together couldnt any deity be able to reassemble it?
I was actually curious about this myself, hence this search as I was just commenting on related material.
Phantom_Lord
quote:
When and how did Khelben or the Harpers come across this and where can I find the details of such an instance...
I would love to know the answer to this too! I know Bane knew Fzoul would get crazy, all the way back in 753DR, but nothing more than that.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 10:02:27
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Great Reader Dargoth,
quote:
What exactly does the Sceptre of the Sorcerer Kings do? (I dont have the 2ed book book where its detailed).
It turns once decent wizards into murdering thieves, lol.
Please stop. Seriously. It's beginning to seem like you look for opportunities to throw out this unsubstantiated and entirely unsupported claim. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 10:28:36
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Master Rupert,
quote:
Please stop. Seriously. It's beginning to seem like you look for opportunities to throw out this unsubstantiated and entirely unsupported claim.
I have to sincerely disagree with the claim that my assertions/claims/arguments regarding both The Blackstaff and the Emerald Enclave are as I have evidenced. I am truthfully uncertain why you are stating that those claims I make are quote:
...unsubstantiated and entirely unsupported...
.
If I may ask: why are you making that claim when I have put in legitimately thoughtful, evidenced, and cited to lore arguments at the following?
The Blackstaff
1) http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22542&SearchTerms=teleological
Emerald Enclave
2) http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4591&SearchTerms=emerald,enclave
As always, I anxiously await your response and thank you in advance for it!
Best regards as always, |
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 15:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
quote:
Please stop. Seriously. It's beginning to seem like you look for opportunities to throw out this unsubstantiated and entirely unsupported claim.
I have to sincerely disagree with the claim that my assertions/claims/arguments regarding both The Blackstaff and the Emerald Enclave are as I have evidenced. I am truthfully uncertain why you are stating that those claims I make are quote:
...unsubstantiated and entirely unsupported...
.
If I may ask: why are you making that claim when I have put in legitimately thoughtful, evidenced, and cited to lore arguments at the following?
The Blackstaff
1) http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22542&SearchTerms=teleological
Emerald Enclave
2) http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4591&SearchTerms=emerald,enclave
As always, I anxiously await your response and thank you in advance for it!
Best regards as always,
I've already said, repeatedly, why those claims are unsubstantiated. I'm not going to keep having the same argument over and over again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 15:41:04
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| Some talk to be heard...not understood. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2020 : 16:48:48
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quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
Master Rupert,
quote:
Please stop. Seriously. It's beginning to seem like you look for opportunities to throw out this unsubstantiated and entirely unsupported claim.
I have to sincerely disagree with the claim that my assertions/claims/arguments regarding both The Blackstaff and the Emerald Enclave are as I have evidenced. I am truthfully uncertain why you are stating that those claims I make are quote:
...unsubstantiated and entirely unsupported...
.
If I may ask: why are you making that claim when I have put in legitimately thoughtful, evidenced, and cited to lore arguments at the following?
The Blackstaff
1) http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22542&SearchTerms=teleological
Emerald Enclave
2) http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4591&SearchTerms=emerald,enclave
As always, I anxiously await your response and thank you in advance for it!
Best regards as always,
Cpthero2,
When you seemingly deliberately hunt up a 15 year old thread to respond to about this stuff, that's what makes it look that way to everyone. If it happened occasionally, that's one thing, but when it happens repeatedly, its a trend.
I can appreciate your feelings towards Khelben. I personally think his alignment is in the questionable.... I still like the guy though, and I won't put him alone in that questionable column (i.e. there's a LOT of people I put in that questionable column for their actions.... and there's some "evil" people that I think really aren't given their fair shake either). He also has some things that make him endearing (like giving of himself to restore an ancient elven city), and so you get a mixed bag.
But ultimately... when you keep bringing up the same thing in response to multiple threads spread out over years in a short time, its like you have an axe to grind. Not that you're the only person who can be accused of such around here (I see it in myself and several others who likely don't recognize it in themselves to tell the truth), but your flag is really flying on this subject. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 01:33:50
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Great Reader sleyvas,
quote:
When you seemingly deliberately hunt up a 15 year old thread to respond to about this stuff, that's what makes it look that way to everyone. If it happened occasionally, that's one thing, but when it happens repeatedly, its a trend.
First off, thank you for your reply. I always enjoy discourse with you.
I have to admit: I can see where I should have explained better than I did with my final statement, at the end, and didn't have a lot of context, with my original post yesterday.
I can affirm I was already researching some other material related to the Scepter and it's origins, which is why I commented on this scroll, even though it was (15) years old. Though, I can certainly appreciate why it seemed... random. I do promise though, it was not. Here is the URL you can see from my activity last night that evidences that activity:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23692&SearchTerms=scepter
I also have to say that my last statement, which was intended to be related to an original point, quote:
When and how did Khelben or the Harpers come across this and where can I find the details of such an instance...
was not well written. That implied question of mine was, quote:
I would love to know the answer to this too! I know Bane knew Fzoul would get crazy, all the way back in 753DR, but nothing more than that.
, and would have been better written if I had stated something along the lines of:
"Does anyone here know when in fact that either Khelben "The Blackstaff" Arunsun, or the Harpers did come into possession of the Scepter of the Shadow-King?"
quote:
I can appreciate your feelings towards Khelben. I personally think his alignment is in the questionable.... I still like the guy though, and I won't put him alone in that questionable column (i.e. there's a LOT of people I put in that questionable column for their actions.... and there's some "evil" people that I think really aren't given their fair shake either). He also has some things that make him endearing (like giving of himself to restore an ancient elven city), and so you get a mixed bag.
I do agree with yo here as well. The points I have made about Khelben as a character are not that I dislike him as a character. I dislike that he is treated by, what I feel is a majority of people, as a "good" guy. I think Steve Schend did a fantastic job writing The Blackstaff as a character. I do recall Master Krashos even indicating that, quote:
Khelben is age-old and super smart. He's seen loved ones die a score of times - wives, lovers, children, comrades - and his whole existence is wrapped up around proving himself and protecting those he loves. That nigh-fanatical desire to protect leads the Blackstaff to delve into the prophecies of Alaundo and as noted in Cloak and Dagger, he sees a great evil rising unless he can do something about it. That something ends up being the creation of the Moonstars and the establishment of Rhymanthiin. In doing so, Khelben is practical enough to realise that there will be casualties, that not all allies need to be paragons of virtue (he is content to have his aims/desires coincide with those of a lesser ethical bent than him, if only for a finite time) and that his opponents can be defeated by having them turn on themselves. His greatest achievement in the tumultuous early 1370s DR is the destabilisation of the Zhentarim and the prying away of Manshoon from his power base. He believes that the end justifies the means. He isn't good.
. I agree with that too.
My whole angle on The Blackstaff has been to do an ethical character analysis. He is a compelling character. Sure, I feel him to be evil, while he at the same time has done clearly good things. That's part of what makes him so interesting and compelling. You want to like him, but personally, in the end, I can't because of the other stuff he's done. That's all I mean by my analysis. That of course doesn't prevent other people from presenting their arguments, as you cogently have, and possibly even disproving my argument. If someone has a better argument, I always concede to that and walk away a wiser man for it! :)
quote:
But ultimately... when you keep bringing up the same thing in response to multiple threads spread out over years in a short time, its like you have an axe to grind.
Point well made. I appreciate your constructive criticism. I think had I, as I mentioned above, made my points clearer this time around, I would have likely avoided this situation, but nonetheless, I appreciate the opportunity to clear it all up! :)
quote:
Not that you're the only person who can be accused of such around here (I see it in myself and several others who likely don't recognize it in themselves to tell the truth), but your flag is really flying on this subject.
Well, you are certainly right about my flag up on the Blackstaff and Emerald Enclave issue. It's a compelling topic for me, but I will say: I've definitely and exhaustively so, made my arguments in other scrolls [http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22542&SearchTerms=scepter], so I can see the value in keeping the material there, unless the specificity of the issue at hand calls for it directly.
As always Great Reader sleyvas, I appreciate the discourse!
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 19:55:50
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| Avoiding the appearance of being didactic or pedantic...as well as fabricating information from faulty conclusions and then presenting them as a continuing "fact"...will go a long way to opening discourse on various topics. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 22:38:39
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Great Reader Darden,
Good afternoon again!
quote:
Avoiding the appearance of being didactic or pedantic...
I appreciate your input on that. I do want to say that while my style may come across that way, it is most definitely not my intent. It sounds like it has come across that way, and as such, I extend my apologies for any offense that I have caused to you in what has clearly come across in that didactic manner.
As to the pedantry, I can appreciate that perspective as well. I use what you clearly view as pedantry, as a means to avoid holes in my presentation. I appreciate what I feel is constructive criticism, and I'll reflect on that as I engage in arguments in the future. Thank you!
quote:
...as well as fabricating information from faulty conclusions and then presenting them as a continuing "fact"...will go a long way to opening discourse on various topics.
It sounds like we may have a disagreement on fabricated information. What do you feel was fabricated? I'm very interested in digging into that information!
I am glad to hear that you've concluded your analysis of my argument and arrived at my position being faulty. I always take every such outcome as an opportunity to learn, grow, and become more skilled at argumentation. What were your detailed findings that led to my faulty conclusion?
I look forward to hearing back from you.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 22:52:38
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| Your fabrication of "fact" is your continued assertion that the Emerald Enclave has killed perhaps millions of people. It isn't even implied in a single source...for one. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2020 : 23:23:34
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Great Reader Darden,
Thank you for the swift reply!
quote:
Your fabrication of "fact" is your continued assertion that the Emerald Enclave has killed perhaps millions of people. It isn't even implied in a single source...for one.
I believe you to be incorrect about that, but am open to your evidenced rebuttal.
If a group is known to be be engaged in such quote:
violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that
swept through the Vilhon.
, then what we do is see how much damage has been done from the plagues that the Emerald Enclave is being correlated with. It just so happens I was able to induce those figures! :)
quote:
quote:
In the Year of the Clinging Death (75 DR), a plague tore through the Vilhon Reach, killing more than 50% of the total population in as little as 10 years.
To begin with: I am not saying that the Emerald Enclave started this plague.
However, let's hold on a darn tootin' moment here! I thought it was just said that "That group's violence and ruthlessness are as legendary as the plagues that swept through the Vilhon."? So, if I understand this correctly, their violence was so ruthless and legendary, that it was equal to half the loss of the regions humans in 10 years? Let's take a look at that population shall we? (https://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/vilhon.shtml)
In 1372, the Vilhon Reach had a population of approximately 5,705,840 (humans 95%, dwarves 2%, elves 1%, lizard-folk 1%). Let's just for arguments sakes reduce that by 75% to 1,426,420. Now, that is of course silly to do so, but let's see what 50% of that is...oh my, it appears to be 713,230. Being generous I reduced that to an absurdly low number whereas the high value would be 2,852,920. So, the Emerald Enclaves violence is so legendary and ruthless that it is stated to be on par with a death toll of between 713k to 2.8 million? Indeed. That is in fact what the citations say.
The math is what it is. I inductively came to that conclusion.
I'm happy to keep sharing this data and statistics (inductively generated) with you more into the future, but that's the thing: they're awfully stubborn. Now, did something about the math not come about right, or something else related?
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Scepter of the Sorcerer-Kings
