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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 27 May 2004 : 16:39:48
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Silven Crossroads conducted an interview with Ryan Dancey, creator of the d20 System and Open Gaming licenses and CEO of Organized Play.
He had the following to say about a possible release of 4th edition for D&D
quote:
Q) Do you think that Wizards of the Coast will release a Fourth Edition of Dungeons & Dragons at or before GenCon 2006?
I have no insider information one way or another.
Today, I do not know what a "4th Edition" would look like, how long it would take to develop, or how much it would cost. The release of 3rd Edition was engineered from the ground up to reflect years of innovative development in the RPG field. It took nearly 3 years, including more than 18 months of sustained development by team with a minimum of 4 designers and 2 artists and 2 business managers. The total cost was well in excess of a quarter million dollars.
There has been a whole lot of innovation in the application of the d20 system because of the OGL, but I do not know to what degree any designer could make a case for a "ground up" rewrite of D&D as a result. I do not know when time could be found to work on the project. And I have no idea how much capital Hasbro would be willing to invest in the project.
My sense is that what most people mean when they say "4th Edition" is closer to the level and extent of changes represented by 3rd Edition than by 2nd Edition. 2nd Edition was a tune up of the 1st Edition rules, but most of the tune up was cosmetic. Few (if any) core game systems were altered. 3rd Edition changed several core game systems (saving throws, multiclassing, etc.)
In that sense, I do not seriously think we will see a "4th Edition" of D&D for at least a decade post 3.0 - meaning a release sometime around 2009-2010, roughly the same timeline we saw from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. Work on such a project probably would start in 2006 and really get rolling in 2008.
That said, it would not surprise me to see WotC release a product line called "4th Edition" on an earlier timeline. WotC knows (from its Magic data) that a "new edition" does not have to mean a complete game rewrite, but can instead be more of a marketing program than a game design evolution. Such marketing-driven releases help keep sales up, refresh the brand, and provide great opportunities to generate profits.
In that sense, a "4th Edition" that delivered new art, a new mix of classes, a new package of feats & skills, a new suite of basic spells, and a new mix of monsters would not be an unreasonable product line to release 2-3 years after 3.5 (i.e. 2006-2007).
There are still aspects of the game that, in my opinion, require a lot of work, which could be rolled into a "marketing" 4th Edition, or a "rewrite" 4th Edition, depending on a number of factors internal to WotC.
Most of those aspects are on the DM/Design side, not the player side which is why I believe they could be implemented in a "marketing" release. Specifically, I believe the a system that is used to generate a suitable challenge vs. an arbitrary sized party with arbitrary levels and arbitrary classes is needed. I believe the simplistic "CR" system doesn't work in practice because there are too many variables that it ignores that directly impact the play experience. The game systems need to focus on making it easier for a DM to quickly generate challenges appropriate for the party actually being played, not an arbitrary party of 4 iconic characters using nothing but basic classes.
I also think the game needs a "spell research" system that allows players to create unique spells without having to have a DM worry about how they will unbalance the game. A mechanical system similar to that described in the Epic Level Handbook would be a good start. More than half the pages in the PHB are devoted to spells, because if all those spells weren't listed, they could not be cast. A system for spell generation could replace the bulk of those listings.
With regard to the Magic Item system, more work needs to be done to quantify effects that are undercosted (a ring of Fly or Invisibility, for example, is much, much better than any other item that can cast a generic 2nd level spell on the wearer, even though Fly and Invisibility are balanced 2nd level spells when cast using the spell casting system.)
I'd also like to see a general rules cleanup on the combat system, and the system to create a monster. The rules as written are ok, but the way they are presented is complex and confusing, and both topics deserve additional development.
Two of the things I would like to see added to the core D&D system both come from Monte Cook: The "racial advancement" concept presented in Unearthed Arcana, and the "classless classes" concept presented in the D20 Call of Cthulhu RPG would both be great additions to the core rules. Both add tremendous flexibility without adding a lot of complexity.
Things I doubt we will ever see in any edition of Dungeons & Dragons are changes to remove classes, hit points, armor class, or saving throws. I doubt that you'll ever see a D&D game without fire & forget spellcasting. And the game will (hopefully) always be designed around the idea of a party of heroes confronting challenges, overcoming those challenges, and gaining power as a result. (otherwise known as kick down the door, kill the orc, take it's stuff, and power up).
We have the OGL to enable games with different basic objectives while still interconnecting with the D&D franchise. There's no good reason now to change D&D to explore those design paradigms.
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 21:48:56
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quote:
Said by Ryan Dancey.
It took nearly 3 years, including more than 18 months of sustained development by team with a minimum of 4 designers and 2 artists and 2 business managers. The total cost was well in excess of a quarter million dollars.
 It certainly didn't seem like that's what you put in.
quote:
WotC knows (from its Magic data) that a "new edition" does not have to mean a complete game rewrite, but can instead be more of a marketing program than a game design evolution.
Wrong, totally wrong. Different Editions of Magic do serve to get the broken or near-broken pieces out of Standard rotation, and can completely change T2 for their time in the sun(Standard would be much different if Counterspell was legal.)
quote:
In that sense, a "4th Edition" that delivered new art, a new mix of classes, a new package of feats & skills, a new suite of basic spells, and a new mix of monsters would not be an unreasonable product line to release 2-3 years after 3.5 (i.e. 2006-2007).
So more reprints? Great. I bought 3.5 for the rules updates-not for having the duelist in the DMG.
quote:
With regard to the Magic Item system, more work needs to be done to quantify effects that are undercosted (a ring of Fly or Invisibility, for example, is much, much better than any other item that can cast a generic 2nd level spell on the wearer, even though Fly and Invisibility are balanced 2nd level spells when cast using the spell casting system.)
I must have missed that memo-I've always used Fly as a third level spell.
Some more pieces from the article:
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The D20 System Trademark License will continuously evolve and it was designed to do so. Any time WotC feels that competitors are using it to take advantage of a market WotC wants to exploit, WotC will change the license to restrict that competition. If I was a d20 publisher, and I thought that I was doing something likely to attract WotC's attention in a negative way, I would expect that attention to be directed at a D20 System Trademark License revision, and plan accordingly.
I'm starting to smell Microsoft-like monopolistic tactics here...
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The OGL only has one significant problem, in my opinion - handling computer software. In my opinion, a way should be found to allow Open Game Content to be used in conjunction with the GPL to enable free software with open gaming content.
Hmm, interesting. I'd like to see this happen, too-just to see what the GNU fanatics would do to the OGL. Mind you, a version of the Free Document Licence aimed at this might not be bad...
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At WotC, my staff developed a long-range plan that was designed to create a "pyramid" of products that started with 8 year olds and lead inexorably to the D&D Intro product later in life.
And this lead to what? A dumbing down of the entire product line? The D&D Clue game? The chopped up Chronicles, which are quite easy for young readers to get in their untainted form?
quote:
As a side note, Johnathan Tweet has outlined a plan that I think could workably be used to potentially increase core book sales without a huge design overhead. His idea was to make an annual "theme" for D&D. The obvious example is "anime". The "Anime D&D" books would use all new Anime art, Anime iconic characters, etc. but would use the 3.5 game rules virtually unchanged. Similar "themes" could include "Gothic Punk", "Arthurian Fantasy", "Cosmic Horror", etc. Such products could induce "fence sitters" who would like to play D&D but don't like the baseline fantasy imagery to buy and play the game.
So you get a few more purchases, and lose your core audience? Great job, WotC.
quote:
I believe in Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.
Prior to the OGL/D20 project, at the height of TSR's madness, a D&D buyer might have 10 new D&D products to consider each month. Per Sturgeon's Law, that meant 12 "non crap" products a year. (And that release schedule was not sustainable and was part of the reason TSR died, and I (as a former purchaser of those products) would argue that the "non crap" percentage was a lot lower than 10%.)
(Italics mine.)
Can anyone see a reason why this man supports 3e so wholeheartedly?
quote:
In 2004, with 30-40 new D20 products being released each month, Sturgeon's Law tells us that there are 36-48 "non crap" products being released each year, most of which are totally compatible with D&D! What a Renaissance!
My experience is telling me it went the other way... |
Edited by - Arivia on 27 May 2004 22:04:53 |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 22:37:12
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From a business standpoint some of what is said makes sense. From a longtime gamers pov, most of what he says can be upsetting.
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The total cost was well in excess of a quarter million dollars.
It may not seem like it, but money goes quick in corporate America.
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In that sense, I do not seriously think we will see a "4th Edition" of D&D for at least a decade post 3.0 - meaning a release sometime around 2009-2010, roughly the same timeline we saw from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd. Work on such a project probably would start in 2006 and really get rolling in 2008.
I've been in it since the red boxed set, so this is reasonable enough.
quote:
That said, it would not surprise me to see WotC release a product line called "4th Edition" on an earlier timeline. WotC knows (from its Magic data) that a "new edition" does not have to mean a complete game rewrite, but can instead be more of a marketing program than a game design evolution. Such marketing-driven releases help keep sales up, refresh the brand, and provide great opportunities to generate profits.
In that sense, a "4th Edition" that delivered new art, a new mix of classes, a new package of feats & skills, a new suite of basic spells, and a new mix of monsters would not be an unreasonable product line to release 2-3 years after 3.5 (i.e. 2006-2007).
OK, that would be pushing it. Just come out with a supplement, not a revision. If it would change the game that much, wait until a complete revision is warranted.
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"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 00:46:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Said by Ryan Dancey.
It took nearly 3 years, including more than 18 months of sustained development by team with a minimum of 4 designers and 2 artists and 2 business managers. The total cost was well in excess of a quarter million dollars.
It certainly didn't seem like that's what you put in.
250K is nothing! 8 people working 3 years for 250K?!? that's 10K per year each... either his math skills are lacking, or he forgot to add that this 250K was on top of salaries... (i.e. expenses above operating costs) I'd be inclined to believe the former, as we are talking about the one who brought the Living City campaign to an end (according to what I've heard, due to financial reasons).
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Said by Ryan Dancey.
With regard to the Magic Item system, more work needs to be done to quantify effects that are undercosted (a ring of Fly or Invisibility, for example, is much, much better than any other item that can cast a generic 2nd level spell on the wearer, even though Fly and Invisibility are balanced 2nd level spells when cast using the spell casting system.)
I must have missed that memo-I've always used Fly as a third level spell.
Yeah, you missed the memo big time... so did his 3rd edition design team it seems! 
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Said by Ryan Dancey.
As a side note, Johnathan Tweet has outlined a plan that I think could workably be used to potentially increase core book sales without a huge design overhead. His idea was to make an annual "theme" for D&D. The obvious example is "anime". The "Anime D&D" books would use all new Anime art, Anime iconic characters, etc. but would use the 3.5 game rules virtually unchanged. Similar "themes" could include "Gothic Punk", "Arthurian Fantasy", "Cosmic Horror", etc. Such products could induce "fence sitters" who would like to play D&D but don't like the baseline fantasy imagery to buy and play the game.
So you get a few more purchases, and lose your core audience? Great job, WotC.
Great job indeed!  Hey, I've got a business plan for you: slash your darn prices by half and then I might decide to add some WotC dead weight into my appartment... as long as your Core books are 30 US dollars each, please keep those wonderful, enlightened plans to yourselves... (note the lack of the word "business" before "plans", as no self-respecting outfit would try to pull such stunts on their customers)
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Said by Ryan Dancey.
I believe in Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.
(Italics mine.)
Can anyone see a reason why this man supports 3e so wholeheartedly?
Pretty self-explanatory hey? At least his beliefs explain why the 90% of the Living City campaign turned to crap after he took over... 
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Said by Ryan Dancey.
In 2004, with 30-40 new D20 products being released each month, Sturgeon's Law tells us that there are 36-48 "non crap" products being released each year, most of which are totally compatible with D&D! What a Renaissance!
My experience is telling me it went the other way...
Same here. What a Renaissance! What a joke! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 04:29:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Hey, I've got a business plan for you: slash your darn prices by half and then I might decide to add some WotC dead weight into my appartment
WOTC dead weight! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 05:00:08
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Monte Cook's latest Line of Sight article discusses D20 sales being down. In writing about that topic, he had this to say
quote:
But there are other factors to consider. Wizards of the Coast's release of D&D v.3.5 upset the applecart, to say the least, although that's hardly surprising. With essentially a new edition of the rules to relearn, no one was interested in buying new support material in addition to those books.* Further, the players' expectations regarding the level of changes to the game weren't managed well -- common wisdom held that suddenly 3.0 products (D&D or d20) were now useless. In effect, Wizards hit the reset button on the d20 industry (and their own product lines) and everyone's backlist sales basically went away.
Few were ready for the reset. Oh, Wizards was forward-thinking enough to reveal the 3.5 rules to most d20 publishers ahead of time so we could come out with 3.5-compatible products. That was great of them, but the flood of "3.5 compatible" blurbs on products probably only fostered the idea that non-3.5 products were of no use to anyone. This, I believe, is a serious misconception. While it's a fair bit of effort to sit down and convert a product in its entirety from 3.0 to 3.5, it's almost effortless to use a 3.0 product in a 3.5 game. It's one thing to search through an entire product and change "subdual" to "nonlethal," for example, and quite another to just remember they're synonyms in your head as you read the rules. It's complicated to note all the spell changes from edition to edition, but an NPC wizard's list of spells in an adventure remains just as useable as it once was.)
In his conclusion, Mr. Cook adds
quote:
As customers, I encourage us all to be discriminating shoppers. The best way to ensure quality product is to buy quality product. Support the folks doing good work, and let the people doing less than stellar material quietly close up shop.
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Edited by - SiriusBlack on 28 May 2004 05:02:23 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 05:07:35
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| Ummm didnt "Racial Advancement" origionally appear in Savage species and Sean Reynolds came up with it not Monte Cook....... |
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Emperor Sigismund
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2004 : 08:36:25
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That is essentially correct, although Monte had developed a basic 'racial advancement' system several months earlier which was later scrapped. Once Savage Species was released, Monte reworked his own ideas and later adapted them for inclusion into his still-forming ideas about Arcana Unearthed...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 06:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Hey, I've got a business plan for you: slash your darn prices by half and then I might decide to add some WotC dead weight into my appartment
I'd be happy with a third. Heck, even a 25% reduction would let me afford more. As it is, I can't normally get an urge to buy a $30 book I know I won't love and may not even like when there are plenty of non-WotC products begging for my very limited pool of money. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 07:17:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Hey, I've got a business plan for you: slash your darn prices by half and then I might decide to add some WotC dead weight into my appartment
I'd be happy with a third. Heck, even a 25% reduction would let me afford more. As it is, I can't normally get an urge to buy a $30 book I know I won't love and may not even like when there are plenty of non-WotC products begging for my very limited pool of money.
Ditto that. Back in the days of 2nd edition, I was making less money, but $20 for a hardcover or boxed set still seemed pretty reasonable. Now I'm making a wee bit more, but I'm not so willing to drop $30 or $40 on a hardcover. The new stuff doesn't seem to be worth that kind of price tag. $20, yes. $25, maybe. $30, most likely not. $30+ -- I hope I get it as a present. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 14:51:26
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| Not to mention, at least for me, if it comes down to spending a sizeable $ amount on a FR novel or a gaming product, the novel will win every single time. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 15:28:02
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A big no to reducing prices. The trade publishing industry is undercapitalized, the RPG industry moreso, proportionally few professional authors of any kind can earn a decent living, in-house and freelance game designers are underpaid, which causes much leakage to talent to, especially, the computer games business. RPG books have not, even with great increases in production quality, risen in price (accounting for inflation) in the last twenty years.
Of course I sympathize that the current Realms sourcebooks are only partly Realms sourcebooks, so we're paying for content we didn't ask for. I'd have bought one or two more if they were cheaper. But reducing prices would be bad. |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 16:43:00
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As usual there are always two sides to a coin (and of course the edge). The reason why D&D is now so popular is because WotC brought it more or less out of a cult status to a mass marketable product accepted by the consumer world at large (some fringe religious cults still condemn the game though)
The price for this increased popoluarity is a reduction of quality. WotC as a divison of Hasbro is now a business with its main traget making money so the company can survive. If on average John & Jane Doe keep buying the products regardless of edition, they have their bulk flow of money secured.
Now of course there is a significant group of fans who don't like the comercialism WotC has embraced and longs for the days of products released by TSR. While I also miss the product quality and depth of those days, I'm realistic enough that without the changes made, D&D might not have survived in time. Sure it might still have been around at this point, but what a bout a few years down the line.
The accessibility WotC has brought to the game makes the product able to compete with a generation that is growing up on game cubes/boxes and the like. If products would have remained at the status they were when TSR still made them, this new influx of youth in the ranks of D&D players would have makred the game as a dinosaur-to-be.
Monte's advice to be discriminate buyers is a good one. Because the old fans and the new gamers who go more in-depth into the game can have a significant impact on the business if their combined buying power suddenly steers away from the products that WotC is putting out. While this is ot a guarantee that WotC will better their lives and make some effort at pleasing veterans, the chance is there. (Although it might take up to 60-years to be recognized as did the WWII veterans...way to go America!)
I personally will buy products as I see them fit for my needs. Which would typically be FR producst and not the add-on generic stuff - do I miss out on prestige classes, new spells and the like... I don't think so. For example, most people still have a tendency to use the spells in the PHB more often than any of the stuff in the add-ons and there are enough spells in the core books to guarantee hours of play.
I'll step down of my soapbix and let the discussion continue. Sometimes it feels good to vent - but let's keep it civil folks |
Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 31 May 2004 19:47:11 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 20:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
As usual there are always two sides to a coin (and of course the edge). The reason why D&D is now so popular is because WotC brought it more or less out of a cult status to a mass marketable product accepted by the consumer world at large (some fringe religious cults still condemn the game though)
It has been accepted by the consumer world at large? I must be living in the wrong parts of the World.  |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2004 : 22:18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
It has been accepted by the consumer world at large? I must be living in the wrong parts of the World.
Gaming's popularity has waxed and waned over these last 30 years. Recently it has been on an upswing and reached mass-markets it hasn't seen since the mid-eighties such as Barnes and Nobles, Borders,and many other "respectable" book stores. I'd still hazard to guess that gaming isn't nearly as popular as it was at its peak around 1984.
A lot of this is due to computer gaming and if one were to throw fantasy computer gaming into the equation it has far surpassed the 80's in popularity and acceptance.
However, with regard to p&p gaming, products are much more slick with higher production costs than they were in the mid-eighties. This makes it much harder for smaller companies to compete and the slightest downswing in the market can spell disaster for quite a few businesses.
However, as Sirius pointed out, gaming is still not at the level of acceptance that (aside from certain exceptions) one would feel entirely comfortable discussing in detail their gaming hobby in job interviews, with prospective dates at a bar, or with friends of your parents. I know over the last 25 years I've learned it is occasionally easier to change the topic than it is to justify my "irrational pursuits" with older relatives that just don't get it.
Sarta |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 08:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
It has been accepted by the consumer world at large? I must be living in the wrong parts of the World.
Heh, if that part of the world is wedged in between the North Atlantic on the east and the Northern Great Ocean on the west, and ruled by a crazy cowboy, then you might be right.
I've been playing the game since the 1990 and have seen the books and material come out of hiding (i.e. obscure little stores catering to a small fanbase) and be more prominently displayed and sold.
It might be less apparent in the US where the game has been 'popular' for longer, but at least in Europe it has seen a surge of popularity and acceptance since 3e. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 09:45:17
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I hear Wal-Mart now distributes WotC stuff in the US... if D&D is still considered evil by the population at large, then it is that a large percentage of the population must be evil!
I mean, if you're a business, and you want to push your stuff through Wal-Mart, you have a lot of competition for that shelf space, and you better have a good substantiation that it will sell... so if it's not *mainstream* yet, as you guys seem to imply, then it is that the Wal-Mart owners must be visionaries and/or big geek gamers... and since I don't believe that (i.e. because beancounters rule the world utterly), then it means D&D has really become mainstream.
There. I have proved it (as well as D&D is NOT evil mind you, a double-wammy of sort...  ) through a "I think, therefore I am, therefore God exists" eternal loop of logic. 
Conclusion/Recommendations: someone, please make a GOOD D&D movie... YES! there are enough potential ticket-buyers out there.
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 11:05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
...I'm relaistic enough that without the changes made, D&D might not have survived in time. Sure it might still have been around at this point, but what a bout a few years down the line...
I agree that all things change with time… but D&D was a fan based game that slowly seeped into commercialdom despite it’s origins in Geekdom . Yes, I am an out of the closet geek and admit it freely.
Allot of classic D&D products came out from roots of fandom and on the efforts of amateur writers and artists.
This tradition continues on today and Candlekeep itself is a living ancestor of that same attitude.
If D&D had commercially died with TSR closing its doors, I think it would still be around. In the 80s playing 1E with my friends we used to joke about being 70 or 80 and still playing. Now we are “adults” and have lives and jobs and geography that prevent us from our weekly game, but we still gather together a few times a year to do the PnP thing. My grandparetns played bridge. I can see myself playing D&D...oh god, I am getting old
Sure 10 or 20 years later we may or may not have 4th or 5th edition with an Anime Elminster and a Cyberpunk Symbul but I think we are far more likely to be moving further virtually in the PC than through more and more paper editions.
Still the reminiscent draw to PnP will bring some of us back to the table. But if WOTC is counting on those of us supporting the genre by publishing continuous crunch, I think they don’t have a good feel of their true market audience. 8 year olds are not going to spend $30+ of their allowance (or beg their parents for it) to buy books when they can buy the latest Death Kill Diablo with super gore! on Paystation 4 for near the same price.
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 31 May 2004 11:07:40 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 15:37:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
It has been accepted by the consumer world at large? I must be living in the wrong parts of the World.
Heh, if that part of the world is wedged in between the North Atlantic on the east and the Northern Great Ocean on the west, and ruled by a crazy cowboy, then you might be right.
I've been playing the game since the 1990 and have seen the books and material come out of hiding (i.e. obscure little stores catering to a small fanbase) and be more prominently displayed and sold.
It might be less apparent in the US where the game has been 'popular' for longer, but at least in Europe it has seen a surge of popularity and acceptance since 3e.
Then times have changed. I lived in Germany for two years, no Crazy Cowboys readily visible and yet it was still not accepted at the level you are alluding to. Alas it was well before WOTC, so thank you for letting me know they have done so much for so many. What a heroic organization and now they are going to save D&D further with Eberron. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 17:49:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
I hear Wal-Mart now distributes WotC stuff in the US... if D&D is still considered evil by the population at large, then it is that a large percentage of the population must be evil!
I mean, if you're a business, and you want to push your stuff through Wal-Mart, you have a lot of competition for that shelf space, and you better have a good substantiation that it will sell... so if it's not *mainstream* yet, as you guys seem to imply, then it is that the Wal-Mart owners must be visionaries and/or big geek gamers... and since I don't believe that (i.e. because beancounters rule the world utterly), then it means D&D has really become mainstream.
There. I have proved it (as well as D&D is NOT evil mind you, a double-wammy of sort... ) through a "I think, therefore I am, therefore God exists" eternal loop of logic.
Conclusion/Recommendations: someone, please make a GOOD D&D movie... YES! there are enough potential ticket-buyers out there.
This brought to you by the Just-Hire-Jackson (JHJ) society, in collaboration with Famou$ Playa$ and Vin Incredible Diesel Angel Investing Co. (VIDACO)
We've got 2 Wal-Marts here that I hit pretty frequently... And I've not seen D&D stuff at either one. I suppose I could look at some of the other local ones (Viera, Merritt Island, or the beachside one), but I just don't see Wally World carrying D&D stuff. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2004 : 18:09:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We've got 2 Wal-Marts here that I hit pretty frequently... And I've not seen D&D stuff at either one. I suppose I could look at some of the other local ones (Viera, Merritt Island, or the beachside one), but I just don't see Wally World carrying D&D stuff.
I know their online store carries D&D stuff. But, I've never seen such products within physical stores. Alas, I might be wrong as since I moved about a year ago, I've been able to avoid Walmarts in my new area. Thank Corellon. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 17:33:44
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The following bit of news on 4th edition was found at ENWorld today:
quote:
For those interested in when 4th Edition D&D might possibly appear, WotC/D&D Brand Manager Charles Ryan has posted the following (thanks to Knight Otu for the scoop):
The short answer: No immediate plans; don't lose any sleep over it.
The longer answer: It’s the nature of roleplaying game systems to evolve over time, as new and better ways of running the game are devised by its designers and players. Thirty years of history show that D&D is no exception, so it’s probably safe to say that D&D will, some day, see another new edition. However, we are very happy with the current edition (as, I'm guessing, you are too), and we’re not in a hurry to monkey with a game that is enjoying new heights of success every day. If or when we do plan a new edition, we’ll give everyone plenty of warning before its release—at least a year or two. So please don’t worry that we’re going to be changing the game any time soon; enjoy the current edition and expect continued support for it for years to come
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 03:33:42
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| Melfius, considering the possibility of 4th Edition, falls to the floor and twitches. |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 05:06:11
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The following bit came from ENWorld's news for today:
quote:
WotC/D&D Brand Manager Charles Ryan posted the following on the possibility of changing some of D&D's most iconic game rules (thanks to MerricB for both scoops):
In answer to the original question: I don't think there are any "sacred cows" in D&D.
When we look at our game and the direction it takes as it develops over time, we don't so much see list of untouchable concepts as a continuum of game elements ranging from "extremely important to the game experience and expectations of our players" to "less so."
Some game elements (whether they're specifics, like the wizard class, or abstracts, like the concept of ablative damage) lie very distinctly at the former end of the scale. We're not going to monkey with them just for the heck of it, except in a product like Unearthed Arcana, where we can present the variations as distinctly optional.
But there's no "off the scale." Everything is open to discussion if we think there's an interesting, more flexible, or better way of doing things. A good example is the racial substitution levels in the Race series books--a system that provides a new spin on the "sacred cow" of character races.
He also had this to say about the upcoming Weapons of Legacy (link):
Expect to see some other "alternative" systems in the future. For instance, Weapons of Legacy (out in July) will contain new ways for dealing with some types of magic items (and not just weapons); some even broader alternative systems will be included in products slated a little further down the road.
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Ryan Dancey gives some thoughts on 4th edition
