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The Black Hand of Bane
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
 Posted - 25 May 2004 : 19:50:00
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I posted this over at the Wiz board but figure I can maybe get some input here as well.
Ok..the title sums it up.
In my campaign an apocolypse is coming that will eventually destroy all of Toril.
My question is this. The gods are going to have warning that it is happening, thus in advance they will begin helping their worshippers open portals to travel to another world.
The gods themselves will manifest near the end of the exodus and go through with their worshippers. (this will lead into my homebrew world but I won't go into that)
My question is...would all the gods go through or would some stay.
At the moment those that will not leave are
Chauntea (she is Faerun to an extent)
Mystra (she is Faerun's magical weave, thus linked to that material)
I wasn't sure about Selune and Shar because they existed before all else. I also considered Helm, as staying to the end to guard his world, but also to go to guard his worshippers.
So...who would be left and who would go on?
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"Here we may reign secure; and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition, though in hell:
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." John Milton, Paradise Lost
What lies beyond
The Gates of Hell?
Find out this summer at [url=http://community.dicefreaks.com/]Dicefreaks[/url]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 20:14:10
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Well, for one thing, Shar would prolly be actively trying to help the apocalypse along -- she wants to return to the oblivion that existed before the world was created.
I think most of the other gods would go, though. We've already got cases of gods following their people -- just look at the Old Empires.
In Raymond E. Feist's Riftwar Saga, one of the bits of backstory is that the people of Kelewan originally fled to there from another world, and their gods accompanied them. |
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The Black Hand of Bane
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 20:17:21
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| I guessed the bit for Shar. I just wasn't sure whether she would want absolute nothingness or simply pull her follows to the Plane of Shadows with her and be done with the material worlds. |
"Here we may reign secure; and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition, though in hell:
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." John Milton, Paradise Lost
What lies beyond
The Gates of Hell?
Find out this summer at [url=http://community.dicefreaks.com/]Dicefreaks[/url]
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Israfel666
Acolyte
Italy
37 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 21:29:22
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| I'd say that, following Faiths&Pantheons suggestions, gods wouldn't be able to 'shift' to another world, thus they would all die. However, if their people kept on worshipping them as they went to live in your homebrew world, eventually a 'copy' of each god would be created in the new world. |
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 22:25:31
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| Here's another question. If the gods gain power through being worshipped and some of the followers of a god who does not go through the portal continue to worship them, would they still exist since they are being worshipped? I know some of the gods have died, but some of them have come back to life, some have taken on new aspects(Midnight/Mystra), and some are just sleeping. Would they be different, would a new being take their place with like powers, or would they just worship a dead deity and not gain spells? |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 00:41:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Israfel666
I'd say that, following Faiths&Pantheons suggestions, gods wouldn't be able to 'shift' to another world, thus they would all die. However, if their people kept on worshipping them as they went to live in your homebrew world, eventually a 'copy' of each god would be created in the new world.
Why wouldn't they be able to shift? We've already got plenty of deities in the Realms who have shifted from other worlds.
The elves are not indigenous to the Realms, yet their deities are present.
The Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons are cases where the gods followed their followers from other worlds.
Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Oghma, Silvanus, and the late Tyche were all from our own world...
Kiaransalee is from another world...
There's several cases right there of deities that have migrated to the Realms, so I see no reason that deities couldn't migrate from the Realms, if their followers did the same. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 May 2004 00:42:02 |
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Cherrn
Learned Scribe
Denmark
323 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 02:12:58
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I think Talos might stay as well. The destruction of a world is just about as much destruction as one can find, so im pretty sure Talos would be there to see it, and try and stake a claim that it was his doing  |
A wise man from Calimport once told me: "If a merchant puts sand in the flask of oil he's trying to sell you, then he isn't trying to sell you sand..." |
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Israfel666
Acolyte
Italy
37 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 13:57:01
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Because the deities' mass departure from Faerūn to X (where X is TBHoB's homebrew world) would work like the Seldarine's from Arvandor to Faerūn - the deities themselves would stay in the same world, but a new 'copy' of each god would be formed on X.
Tyr's and the others' "independent" arrival to Faerūn could have worked differently (i.e. without the migration of worshippers), but I don't think we know anything about this. |
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 15:11:04
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| But we know that deities can migrate... Why would any of them, other than Shar, stick around on a world where they had no followers? |
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Israfel666
Acolyte
Italy
37 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 19:59:13
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| ... and even Shar would die without worshippers to 'fuel' her. |
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 01:11:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Israfel666
... and even Shar would die without worshippers to 'fuel' her.
But she desires oblivion! She wants to go back to nothingness... |
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Israfel666
Acolyte
Italy
37 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 20:40:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Israfel666
... and even Shar would die without worshippers to 'fuel' her.
But she desires oblivion! She wants to go back to nothingness...
Godly suicide? |
Stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina nuda tenemus. |
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe
USA
758 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2004 : 18:36:10
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As I was reading Finder's Bane(yeah, I'm behind in my reading) they explain that the gods are made up of many elements. When they are killed, the body still eixsts in the astral plane beside the bodies of other dead gods. They also have an essence that binds them to their followers. Finally they have power. The followers can bind the body, essence, and power together in a ritual to resurrect their god.
So, their followers can keep going on worshipping the god, probably still gaining spells in a limited capacity. So, even if the god's body is destroyed, they are not completely obliterated. The followers can resurrect the god in their new home. |
"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true. |
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The Black Hand of Bane
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 19:41:23
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| Hmm..I've wandered off for awhile but want to thank everyone that responded. You've give me alot of stuff to consider and I'll be able to use it. |
"Here we may reign secure; and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition, though in hell:
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven." John Milton, Paradise Lost
What lies beyond
The Gates of Hell?
Find out this summer at [url=http://community.dicefreaks.com/]Dicefreaks[/url]
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 03:32:24
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From what I have understood with the new cosmology and all I have interpreted this thusly. The gods that exist in Faerun are not the same gods that exist in Greyhawk and dwell in the Great Wheel cosmology. When they have a significant amount of worshippers in Toril and they actively pay attention to it, an alternate reality version of them is generated, one that is more or less exactly like them, but over time can change a bit (Angarrahd for example). The same is true of the demon lords, arch devils, and celestial paragons, though not due to worshippers. In other words, if you kill Lolth in the Demonweb pits in the Toril cosmology, it does nothing to her in the Great Wheel, becuase they are alternate reality versions of each other, created when the goddess was first worshipped in the given world.
I could be wrong, but that is how I have been interpreting things since the new cosmology came around and it makes sense if you think about it. When the elven, dwarven, etc pantheons were cast down by Ao during the Time of Troubles, would the clerics in Greyhawk lose their spells? I doubt it. That seems to support this particular interpretation of how the universe works.
Which, in a round about way, says that the gods of Toril could not leave if the world is ending, becuase this alternate version of them only exists in Toril. But a new version of them may be generated if worshippers moved to a new world . . .
Make any sense? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 19:25:43
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Yes, but that new cosmology is so flat out stupid, let's keep this to the Great Wheel.
I, personally, agree with Wooly, the gods could go. But if everyone ended up in a new crystal sphere (which I'm assuming), that would negate the banishments of all old gods. So people like Ra and Gilgeam, who were killed and banished on Toril (I know there are more, I just can't remember them right now) could come back, if they chose to. Could lead to some interesting godly power struggles. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2005 : 21:24:34
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I don't know, I think that all of the amalgam cross over settings, and the great wheel on top of that, made all the settings feel like "Dungeons and Dragons" first, the setting second, and if the setting suffered for it just think, you can use kender in whatever world you want too . . .
But that's just how my thoughts on the subject went. |
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GothWulf
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2005 : 19:18:26
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I would think that it would all depend on the gods of this "new world" and the world itself. If it is a barren, lifeless place then all of the gods would go, including Chauntea, if for no other reason then to see their followers "safe". <Though I do agree with the opinion that Shar would stay behind and "lose herself"> It would also depend on the Overpower of said world and what S/He/It allowed..on the other hand, if there was already a pantheon then I would have the "interlopers" go though something similar to the Yuir deities...<think Bast and Zandilar the Dancer merging to become Sharess>...it would take time, but thtas what I wold see happening eventually, except for those who didnt have a "soul-mate" in the new world. Such as, if there is no god of suffering <or something similar> then Ilmater would stay as Ilmater. Just my take on it...
Wulfe |
Singer of Sharess, Chosen of Selune, and Drinking Buddy of Tymora |
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Smyther
Learned Scribe
Canada
121 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 05:05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by hammer of Moradin
As I was reading Finder's Bane(yeah, I'm behind in my reading) they explain that the gods are made up of many elements. When they are killed, the body still eixsts in the astral plane beside the bodies of other dead gods. They also have an essence that binds them to their followers. Finally they have power. The followers can bind the body, essence, and power together in a ritual to resurrect their god.
So, their followers can keep going on worshipping the god, probably still gaining spells in a limited capacity. So, even if the god's body is destroyed, they are not completely obliterated. The followers can resurrect the god in their new home.
Quite true. Just take a look at the rock of Amaunator (from some Planescape product, I believe). All his followers died in the Netheril incident, and he ceased to exist on his plane of Mechanus (I think, might be some other very lawful plane), and became just a big floating rock in the Astral Plane.
Makes you think of other dead gods like Bane, Moander, Bhaal, Jhaamdath, etc - those far-fetched plots to bring gods back to life may not be so far-fetched after all. Though what with the cults still worshipping them, one would assume it takes a little more than just faith to bring a dead god back, hence the plans.
As for the original question, apart from Shar, why would the gods stay? They'll turn into big hunks of rock with their worshippers gone and being present at the end of the world. However, certainly all of them would be watching some way from afar, as they would definately want to see what becomes of the world they put so much effort into. No god would miss the end of the world, even if they were dead-set against destruction. In addition, I think Lathander would be hatching a thousand dozen new plans to bring the Realms back as a rebirth - perhaps utilizing the 'Second Dawn' event (see some other lost scroll: Lathander's Second Dawn). |
So sayeth the Smyther, the Dark Bard of Amn. |
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GothWulf
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 18:24:32
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"In addition, I think Lathander would be hatching a thousand dozen new plans to bring the Realms back as a rebirth - perhaps utilizing the 'Second Dawn' event (see some other lost scroll: Lathander's Second Dawn)."
<Jumps up and down on Lathander until he is driven into the ground>
Grrr....I HATE the "punk-bi***" of the Realms with an ever-enduring passion...LOL. For those of you that don't yet recognize Lathander's inate uselessness, please read "Tymora's Luck"...then his "ohhhhhh....pooor me" attitude becomes apparent. <please forgive me....venting just a weeeeeee bit LOL>
Wulfe |
Singer of Sharess, Chosen of Selune, and Drinking Buddy of Tymora |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 18:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by GothWulf
<Jumps up and down on Lathander until he is driven into the ground>
Grrr....I HATE the "punk-bi***" of the Realms with an ever-enduring passion...LOL. For those of you that don't yet recognize Lathander's inate uselessness, please read "Tymora's Luck"...then his "ohhhhhh....pooor me" attitude becomes apparent. <please forgive me....venting just a weeeeeee bit LOL>
Wulfe
Must be an interesting novel to produce such a passionate reaction. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 20:16:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GothWulf
"In addition, I think Lathander would be hatching a thousand dozen new plans to bring the Realms back as a rebirth - perhaps utilizing the 'Second Dawn' event (see some other lost scroll: Lathander's Second Dawn)."
<Jumps up and down on Lathander until he is driven into the ground>
Grrr....I HATE the "punk-bi***" of the Realms with an ever-enduring passion...LOL. For those of you that don't yet recognize Lathander's inate uselessness, please read "Tymora's Luck"...then his "ohhhhhh....pooor me" attitude becomes apparent. <please forgive me....venting just a weeeeeee bit LOL>
Wulfe
I quite enjoyed that novel. And while Lathander was rather misguided, I didn't think he was whining. And he did seem to learn from his mistakes, too.
On a side note, your post again reminds me of the fact that Lathander is one of those polarizing Realms deities: people either love him or hate him. |
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It's the End of the World as we know it
