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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 02:44:17
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Hello.
As I was combing through The Ruins of Undermountain II: The Deep Levels, I noticed the following entry on Level 6 ->
quote:
Room 11: A Pleasant Refuge
This area is immense and looks like a park. The lighting is warm and subdued, like a spring evening. The ground is covered with a green mossy growth that seems soft enough to fall asleep on, and there is even a fountain with a statue of a centaur. The pillars supporting the roof have been carved into the shapes of nymphs and dryads, and the entire area looks completely inviting.
This area was intended for relaxing before and after bathing. In the days when this area was inhabited, there would have been servants passing around trays with drinks and refreshments on them. There would have been music and dancing in the central area and exhibits of artistic works. For now, however, it must suffice that the air is fresh and warm, and the moss on the ground is as comfortable as any bed that the characters entering here have ever slept in.
...
This area is so conducive to rest, that if the party rests here any victims of the illusion in the gate have no nightmares while asleep here, and if the victims sleep here nightly until the time for the dreams has expired, they lose no Wisdom.
Given that the Drow are utterly convinced of their own superiority...the perfection of their form...and the fact that they consider surface dwellers potential prey or slaves (especially woodland friends of The Seldarine and their offspring), I find it odd that they would decorate their habitat with sculptures of centaurs, dryads and nymphs. Even if there were that one-in-a-million dark elf who could appreciate art inspired by beings from so disparate a way of life, would it truly be displayed in a common area of a Drow enclave (and one which, by all indications, was firmly dedicated to Lolth)?
There is also the lighting evocative of a surface season, but that is a relatively minor issue.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 03:31:11
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There among the Drow are many that want return to the surface world, reclaiming their lands and ruling over those lessor elves and the other lower than that, humans etc.
So it would not be that odd to find such a room.
Oh that was not counting those pests good Drow that worship Eilistraee. They certainly would enjoy a room like that. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
820 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 04:31:08
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quote:
This area has obviously been abandoned
by the dark elves for centuries and little evidence
remains to tell which of the great families
dwelt here. It may have been a family that escaped
massacre by others of their kind, buying survival at
the cost of exile, or it may have been a remnant of
the separation of the elves into the light and dark
many millennia ago.
Maybe if that founding family was indeed such a "remnant" it was still more dhaerow than drow, and still enjoyed the stylings of the surface world. I don't personally think that works, but it might be possible. The writing of Room 11 certainly doesn't seem to suggest that Muiral re-shaped it later, so that would be my Plan B out the window.
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AJA
YAFRP
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 04:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There among the Drow are many that want return to the surface world, reclaiming their lands and ruling over those lessor elves and the other lower than that, humans etc.
So it would not be that odd to find such a room.
I might be willing to entertain that notion, were the sculptures of woodland creatures in the accompanying illustration displaying (or, barring that, described as displaying) fear, pain, submission, et cetera; alternatively, the dryads and nymphs might be rendered in poses suggestive of servitude or bondage. As far as I can tell, there are only run-of-the-mill depictions far more suitable for a temple of Corellon Larethian, Rillifane Rallathil and/or Hanali Celanil.
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
The writing of Room 11 certainly doesn't seem to suggest that Muiral re-shaped it later, so that would be my Plan B out the window.
I briefly considered something similar, but, as you say, the (visible) absence of any alteration to the surroundings makes that theory unlikely. Most dungeons that "changed hands" usually make it a point to inform the DM about any especially strange inconsistencies. Having what might be considered cultural propaganda (by a standard Drow matriarchy) in the heart of a Drow community just feels...off. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 16:24:24
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Just because a race is evil, does it mean that they can't enjoy things? Have themed entertainment?
I'd just write it off as that. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 19:06:52
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The Twisted Twist can work here.
So, in Waterdeep, there is a Tavern called The Crawling Spider where it looks like a cave and the waitresses dress up like drow. Fun For The Whole Family! "Our prices are so good, you'll be enslaved!". So.......why DO humans do this? A race of evil and make a happy tavern? It's messed up.
I'm sure the Rest Spot is exactly the same. Full of Fey, in the same way. The drow here "relax" by looking at a centar, getting enraged and saying "rub my back or die!!!!!" It's just as messed up as the Crawling Spider. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 22:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Just because a race is evil, does it mean that they can't enjoy things? Have themed entertainment?
I'd just write it off as that.
The evil race in question follows extreme Lolthite (?) dogma from on-high; this dogma - in part - preaches that they are supreme above all else. It makes little sense for them to adorn their habitation with pleasing symbols of the surface world and even less sense for the religious leaders to allow this decision. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
Edited by - Azar on 08 Sep 2025 00:40:27 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 00:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Just because a race is evil, does it mean that they can't enjoy things? Have themed entertainment?
I'd just write it off as that.
The evil race in question follows extreme Lolthite (?) dogma from on-high; this dogma - in part - preaches that they are supreme above all else; it makes little sense for them to adorn their habitation with pleasing symbols of the surface world and even less sense for the religious leaders to allow this decision.
The entire room could be a test of faith then if you like.
Priestess of Lolth: "Do you like this chamber? It is so relaxing isn't it!"
Drow male: "Yes, it is very nice!"
Priestess: "BLASPHEMER! Now you die!" |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 00:36:57
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Maybe they are actually carvings of drentaurs, drymphs, and... drdryads. You know, the underground Lolthite varieties.
But yes, it seems like a mistake. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 00:53:22
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Maybe they are actually carvings of drentaurs, drymphs, and... drdryads. You know, the underground Lolthite varieties.
But yes, it seems like a mistake.
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi? The succubus is a Chaotic Evil demon and Lolth is herself Chaotic Evil (and sometimes described as demonic if not an outright demon); I do not know if Lolth ever officially had succubi servants, but, it seems a perfect fit.
quote:
Succubi appear most often polymorphed into stunningly beautiful women with perfect figures and smooth, milky skin. They may also appear as any demihuman race. However, they do not often deal with demihumans, because humans’ fiery nature makes them easier prey.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 01:32:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
Maybe they are actually carvings of drentaurs, drymphs, and... drdryads. You know, the underground Lolthite varieties.
But yes, it seems like a mistake.
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi? The succubus is a Chaotic Evil demon and Lolth is herself Chaotic Evil (and sometimes described as demonic if not an outright demon); I do not know if Lolth ever officially had succubi servants, but, it seems a perfect fit.
quote:
Succubi appear most often polymorphed into stunningly beautiful women with perfect figures and smooth, milky skin. They may also appear as any demihuman race. However, they do not often deal with demihumans, because humans’ fiery nature makes them easier prey.
Could even take the shape of a beautiful drow. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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eldritchq
Acolyte
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2025 : 15:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi? The succubus is a Chaotic Evil demon and Lolth is herself Chaotic Evil (and sometimes described as demonic if not an outright demon); I do not know if Lolth ever officially had succubi servants, but, it seems a perfect fit.
quote:
Succubi appear most often polymorphed into stunningly beautiful women with perfect figures and smooth, milky skin. They may also appear as any demihuman race. However, they do not often deal with demihumans, because humans’ fiery nature makes them easier prey.
Yochlols, Lolth's own creation, have been theorized about once being succubi.
quote:
"Remnant of wings gives credence to the theory about their succubi heritage"
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2025 : 01:09:44
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| A petrified centaur makes for a very believable statue. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
820 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2025 : 08:33:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
A petrified centaur makes for a very believable statue.
A pacified centaur makes for a very believable statue. A petrified centaur makes for a bunch of upright hooves and fists.
And horse poop.
Believable, but in a totally different way.
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AJA
YAFRP
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2025 : 23:38:16
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It's not necessarily made by the drow. It could be just good-looking stuff they collected via looting the earlier ruins (carefully disconnect a piece, then [Shrink] Item spell and a silk-lined box).
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi?
A succubus does not exactly mesh with "conducive to rest", knowwhatimean? 
quote:
Originally posted by AJA
A pacified centaur makes for a very believable statue. A petrified centaur makes for a bunch of upright hooves and fists.
Those conditions are not mutually exclusive. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 15 Sep 2025 01:25:04 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2025 : 23:58:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It's not necessarily made by the drow. It could be just good-looking stuff they collected from the earlier ruins (carefully disconnect a piece, then [Shrink] Item).
Of course; however, whether those (ordinary/typical) statues were crafted by dark elves or stolen by dark elves, such works of art would not be regarded as socially acceptable by Lolthites. If anything, statuary representative of the surface world likely be destroyed. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2025 : 02:24:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
*feces
*fecal matter
*excrement
*ordure
*dung
So I am not the only one disturbed by the fact that a word previously restricted to children 5-and-younger has somehow migrated into the average adult's vocabulary. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2025 : 02:57:10
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
*feces
*fecal matter
*excrement
*ordure
*dung
So I am not the only one disturbed by the fact that a word previously restricted to children 5-and-younger has somehow migrated into the average adult's vocabulary.
"Veggies", as well. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2511 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2025 : 18:53:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Of course; however, whether those (ordinary/typical) statues were crafted by dark elves or stolen by dark elves, such works of art would not be regarded as socially acceptable by Lolthites. If anything, statuary representative of the surface world likely be destroyed.
Why? They don't put it in the temples of Lolth or something. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2025 : 23:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi?
A succubus does not exactly mesh with "conducive to rest", knowwhatimean?
A nymph can blind or kill with its overwhelming beauty; I would not call that "conducive to rest", but I understand that the perfect forms of these creatures is what holds appeal.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Of course; however, whether those (ordinary/typical) statues were crafted by dark elves or stolen by dark elves, such works of art would not be regarded as socially acceptable by Lolthites. If anything, statuary representative of the surface world likely be destroyed.
Why? They don't put it in the temples of Lolth or something.
Lolth brooks no indulgence in different (and potentially subversive) beliefs; art carries the power to affect belief. Furthermore, Lolth's influence is not confined within temple walls. It is inconceivable that positive depictions of surface worlders would persist in the social hub of a dark elf community. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 00:58:05
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We can get to discussion about the rooms healing effect might require the decor.
quote:
This area is so conducive to rest, that if the party rests here any victims of the illusion in the gate have no nightmares while asleep here, and if the victims sleep here nightly until the time for the dreams has expired, they lose no Wisdom.
Do Drow have nightmares? The room might have been designed for others? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I was thinking: as an alternative to the nymph (i.e., a surface nature spirit which leans Good), might not there be statues of succubi?
A succubus does not exactly mesh with "conducive to rest", knowwhatimean?
A nymph can blind or kill with its overwhelming beauty; I would not call that "conducive to rest", but I understand that the perfect forms of these creatures is what holds appeal.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Of course; however, whether those (ordinary/typical) statues were crafted by dark elves or stolen by dark elves, such works of art would not be regarded as socially acceptable by Lolthites. If anything, statuary representative of the surface world likely be destroyed.
Why? They don't put it in the temples of Lolth or something.
Lolth brooks no indulgence in different (and potentially subversive) beliefs; art carries the power to affect belief. Furthermore, Lolth's influence is not confined within temple walls. It is inconceivable that positive depictions of surface worlders would persist in the social hub of a dark elf community.
I understand your vision of it...but I would counter by saying that Lolth and her followers are evil yes; but that doesn't mean "Destructive Evil" does it?
Conquerors often take/keep items from those they have defeated or are at war against.
In the book FOR2 Drow of the Underdark:
The Second Part is the extermination of all other elven races, including the seizing of their surface lands and holdings. Lolth and her clergy do not, however, advocate any sort of "holy war."
From the same book:
Drow like to give and receive massages; long, skilled massages involving scented oils, hot water and steam. This is close to ultimate luxury for them.
Drow love beauty--the beauty of sculpture and made items (especially weapons) and the beauty of the body. Drow of both sexes are proud of displaying their physiques; and all children exhibiting any physical deficiency are slain.
Common drow live in small caves, or in circular, walled houses, with dug-out cellars and adobe-like construction. These are always as beautiful as possible, and increase in size and grandeur with the wealth of the owner, until they become the grand villas of wealthy merchants, merchant clans, and noble Houses.
There is much more...but Beauty is something the Drow prize. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 16 Sep 2025 01:09:29 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:18:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
We can get to discussion about the rooms healing effect might require the decor.
That is unadulterated speculation. As it stands, the room is at odds with the dark elves we know. I wonder if the writer placed in architecture befitting a normal elven enclave without giving it a second thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I understand your vision of it.
No, sorry, you cannot dismiss the nature of something by focusing on an individual.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Drow like to give and receive massages; long, skilled massages involving scented oils, hot water and steam. This is close to ultimate luxury for them.
Drow love beauty--the beauty of sculpture and made items (especially weapons) and the beauty of the body. Drow of both sexes are proud of displaying their physiques; and all children exhibiting any physical deficiency are slain.
Common drow live in small caves, or in circular, walled houses, with dug-out cellars and adobe-like construction. These are always as beautiful as possible, and increase in size and grandeur with the wealth of the owner, until they become the grand villas of wealthy merchants, merchant clans, and noble Houses.
There is much more...but Beauty is something the Drow prize.
Their own beauty. Their own form. Their own art. That room in RoU II is an aberration. If you think about this...if you take this to its logical conclusion, then every Lolth-dominated population would likewise be sporting decorations from or based on other cultures. We know this is not true. That deity does not maintain control through tolerance or "live and let live". There is no fostering of a cosmopolitan atmosphere as we understand the word. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:43:44
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It is a single room.
Do as you feel led. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race.
It clashes to you. Not to me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 01:57:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race.
It clashes to you. Not to me.
How you run things at your piece of mahogany is your own affair; how the race in question has been depicted (at least, during the days of TSR...I have no interest in WOTC) is another matter. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Scots Dragon
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
120 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 03:30:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race.
It clashes to you. Not to me.
How you run things at your piece of mahogany is your own affair; how the race in question has been depicted (at least, during the days of TSR...I have no interest in WOTC) is another matter.
Funnily enough drow under WotC doubled-down on a more 'inherently evil' interpretation, with a particularly notorious Dragon Magazine article from Robin D. Laws having some genuinely horrific ideas in it. Most of the idea of the drow appreciating beauty and such comes from the TSR era. They're still fundamentally elves, after all.
The Liriel Baenre novels have young minor nobles engaging in various revelries and debaucheries, in fact.
I feel like there's an odd disconnect between the drow as they were actually portrayed and what people remember of them looking back.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 03:54:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots Dragon
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Likewise. This discussion is about how an element clashes with a previously-established race.
It clashes to you. Not to me.
How you run things at your piece of mahogany is your own affair; how the race in question has been depicted (at least, during the days of TSR...I have no interest in WOTC) is another matter.
Funnily enough drow under WotC doubled-down on a more 'inherently evil' interpretation, with a particularly notorious Dragon Magazine article from Robin D. Laws having some genuinely horrific ideas in it. Most of the idea of the drow appreciating beauty and such comes from the TSR era. They're still fundamentally elves, after all.
The Liriel Baenre novels have young minor nobles engaging in various revelries and debaucheries, in fact.
I feel like there's an odd disconnect between the drow as they were actually portrayed and what people remember of them looking back.
I cannot speak to a lone magazine article (published when, by the way?), but, at least within the past decade, they have softened the Drow as a collective...and for reasons not wholly artistic. Regardless, Drow supremacy to the extent that it strictly forbids foreign iconography has been a part of the race since at least the late 1980s. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2025 : 16:07:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Regardless, Drow supremacy to the extent that it strictly forbids foreign iconography has been a part of the race since at least the late 1980s.
Do you have a source for this?
My quotes are from a TSR book (published 1991).
EDIT: Just a quick re-read of the Vault of the Drow describes it is a Dark Fairyland...and there are numerous references to how beautiful it is as well in various places. That is a publication from 1978 that pretty much matches Drow of the Underdark from 1991 to me...
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 16 Sep 2025 17:10:14 |
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Topic |
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Ruins of Undermountain II - Curious Drow decor
