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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2025 : 06:33:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
While I admire the sense of justice that drives some against the idea of the Wall of the Faithless, I must say that these discussions drive home just how much people cannot let go of their own worldviews even when immersing themselves into a fictional world. Which is not bad if your table is all on the same page (the most important thing for any D&D campaign) but is hardly something that applies in general to the whole population of people appreciating the Forgotten Realms.
Even if what you say is true, and I have seen you have been debating about it, atheists are not an exclusive thing of Toril, and you don't see the powers of Oerth or Krynn, or any other D&D world, punishing so harshly the atheists of their worlds. And we are talking about gods like the Kryinnish gods, who can be quite extreme in their punishment for blasphemers and people who displeased them (The Cataclysm), yet there is nothing about them torturing atheists for all eternity.
So, the only world in D&D where atheism is punished is the Forgotten Realms, which opens the question "why?". In the other worlds it doesn't happen, so it is not necessary. Which means is something the gods of Toril are doing it for some very local reason, and all evidence points that the reason is because they can do it and want to do so.
Again, there is no necessity to try to justify it as something necessary for the cosmos to work or exist, because the rest of the cosmos works as intended and exists just fine without the local gods doing similar stuff...
Hold on now. I have never stated that the Wall of the Faithless is necessary. Just like any other element of the setting, especially niche ones that belong more on the divine unknowable side of things, it could be done away with if needed. But unless we are talking about something completely out of the left field and absurdly unable to fit in with the rest of the setting, I try to explain it within the setting itself, without going to find the reason for the existence of the particular element into the inclinations of the developers.
I also find it a very good thing that different settings have different cosmologies and theogonies, gives for interesting things when the wires cross.
I mean, I bet Toril having the Wall of the Faithless makes for great jokes in Sigil and around the Planes. That's how I personally like to use setting elements. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2025 : 06:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I don't think the Spellplague caused too many changes over there because the involvment of gods (as in, deities in general) was quite lessere than previous catastrophes and people were just angry at Cyricists and maybe Sharrans.
The Spellplague brought a whole continent from Abeir (Returned Abeir), as well as many kingdoms (two in Faerun, Akanul and Tymanther), with thousands of Abeiran who were completely ignorant of what a god was, because their world worked pretty fine without them. So, Kelemvor just got thousands of bricks for free.
Yes, that might be problematic.
What I was referring to when saying that the Spellplague didn't do much for Faithless counts was that there were not too many native Faerunians being angry at the gods in general like after the Time of Troubles.
I think for what concerns Abeir, the land swap also corresponded to patches of "Abeiran pantheon" territory appearing on Toril. What I mean is that the interaction between the Faerunian pantheon and the newly arrived Abeirans would have been akin to the one with the Mulhorandi or the people from Kara-Tur: no interaction unless there is a conversion, different rules apply. So as long as those pieces of Abeir where in place and the people didn't willingly convert, their afterlife was handled the same way it was handled back in Abeir (guessing alignment/elemental Planes).
The problems arise after the Second Sundering when the pieces of Abeir get sent back but not all the population is sent back with it. There you have the chance of Abeirans stuck on Faerun and being judged by Faerunian rules (which obviously would be quite unfair). |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2025 : 15:25:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That's not how writing that is even remotely decent works. You always need a goal--you don't need it to be "noble", but you need a goal that makes sense and is important to the character that does the thing, and they MUST perceive the act as their only viable choice at the time of doing it, or at very least the least damaging thing for their larger scale goal.
"Bring down the Wall, and mortals will see that they cannot be held to account for their faith. On that day, they will put faith aside. And the gods will bring vengeance upon them all."
That's the reasoning of Kelemvor to maintain the Wall, as he himself says it to the player character in Neverwinter Nights 2. In his mind, Kelemvor is trying to protect mortals from the other gods, even if that means maintaining a system that tortures the souls of mortals in the cruelest way until they dissolve to nothingness —completely aware of the process.
As for Myrkul, Baldur's Gate 3 just says this.
"The wall erected by Myrkul, Lord of Bones, to keep those of insubstantial faith from any possible form of peace. See it gored and clawed-at by the desperate, clung with fingernails, flecked with smashed skulls.
How Myrkul enjoys his petty torments."
Myrkul just did it because he could. He had the power to put himself above others, and he used it, with the approval and endorsement of the Circle of Greater Powers of the Faerunian pantheon (as mentioned by Oghma in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad). While Kelemvor has a justification for maintaining the system, Myrkul created that system just because he is evil. I think he falls into the category of dumb evil characters.
My point wasn't related to the wall itself, and I frankly think that the official justifications for the wall are retarded. I was just lurking and saw "evil is enough as a motivation", and wanted to reply to that because that's how you get villains that are unable to compel any sort of engagement beyond "OMG! He's so bad!". |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3823 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2025 : 19:12:53
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Yeah, but hear me out: where does the greed and lust for power come from? What problem do those strategies solve for the character? How does the character apply apply those strategies in a way that has been successful so far in securing them whatever human need they were missing? How does the character internal narrative make their "greed and lust for power" sound either morally justified, or the only possible choice?
You make good motivations by answering questions like these, because they force you to actually know how a character works and what makes them tick. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2025 : 13:44:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Souls are the ultimate currency in the outer planes.
It seems that a soul willingly given is yours to use as you wish.
Unwilling souls seem trickier. The wll of the faithless grinds down those unwilling souls into nothingness, I'm guessing releasing the energy / power inherent in souls that makes them valuable.
So by creating this wall, myrkul got free access to unwanted souls and more power to give him an edge over his rivals and "allies".
A possible interesting take on the wall COULD be that it became a SLOW release of deific energy... something that could sustain a god without worshippers (at the lowest level of power a god can be mind you). So, whereas Bane and Bhaal may have invested in using children as a "backup plan", Myrkul may have invested in something that is A) hard to destroy and B) is intrinsically tied to him but NOT overpowering. So, in this idea, maybe a new god of death cannot tear down the wall without more divine energy effort expenditure than its worth.... but no god is going to admit this to their followers, so they come up with an excuse.
So, as much as some people just want to overwrite it or remove it, my take as with many things is "how can we take something, apply a spin on it, and come up with an interesting spin that opens new story and possible opportunity". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2539 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2025 : 18:40:49
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| A mortal can destroy the Wall, so that idea doesn't hold too much logic (the PC of NWN2 can easily destroy a section of the Wall to release his soul and that of others). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2025 : 04:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
A mortal can destroy the Wall, so that idea doesn't hold too much logic (the PC of NWN2 can easily destroy a section of the Wall to release his soul and that of others).
Was that the one in Rashemen? Work got in the way and I never really played it (bought it, loaded it, got sidetracked by work). Wonder if I can download and play it now on steam or something, as I've heard several people point to it for some lore points... and lord knows I love Rashemen. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2025 : 21:46:14
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| "Oh, something happened in a video game; I guess I will take it as the gospel from this point forward." |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 01:34:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
"Oh, something happened in a video game; I guess I will take it as the gospel from this point forward."
That is common these days.
BattleTech/MechWarrior, Star Trek, Star Wars. People who play the video games (especially the online video games) know that their particular characters and playthroughs aren't canon, of course. But they assume everything else offered in the game is absolute truth within the setting, meticulously researched and factually accurate and officially sanctioned.
They tend to become rather agitated, outraged, and indignant when "purists" and "pedants" dare to suggest that stuff from the game they love is, at best, a subset of licensed beta canon stuff.
I'd expect most people who play NWN2 or BG3 or other D&D-based CRPGs/MMORPGs will fall within this group. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2539 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 05:27:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
"Oh, something happened in a video game; I guess I will take it as the gospel from this point forward."
While it's not to be taken as a gospel, it cannot be ignored either. If a source says the Wall can be destroyed, then I can't say it can't be destroyed unless I'm purposefully changing things, and the moment I change things, it becomes homebrew. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2539 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 05:29:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
A mortal can destroy the Wall, so that idea doesn't hold too much logic (the PC of NWN2 can easily destroy a section of the Wall to release his soul and that of others).
Was that the one in Rashemen? Work got in the way and I never really played it (bought it, loaded it, got sidetracked by work). Wonder if I can download and play it now on steam or something, as I've heard several people point to it for some lore points... and lord knows I love Rashemen.
Yes, the Mask of the Betrayer expansion. The game gives you the choice of reclaiming your soul peacefully, or by destroying a chunk of the Wall and freeing other souls in the process (the evil option, per the game's alignment system). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 10:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
it cannot be ignored either
Why not? Says who?
I don't think this discussion gains anything with confrontational tones.
The canonicity of BG1 and BG2 stands only as long as the PC is assumed to be Abdel Adrian and follows the novels with Jaheira, Imoen, Khalid and the rest of the vanilla good party. A few events from the games are referenced in the official Grand History (Sarevok's plan and death, Irenicus' plots, Saradush's siege).
The only NwN games event referenced in other lore is the Wailing Plague, with no follow up on the game plot.
Given the wide ranging effects of the NwN games, the fact they are not referenced anywhere else leads me to believe they are not considered canon in the pre-Spellplague era. Canonicity of modern stuff like BG3 is uncertain as, if I remember correctly, the official stance has become "we decide what canon is and can change our decision if it suits us for the next product".
Even if the events of NwN: Mask of the Betrayer are considered canon, I would not call the PC of the game a mere "mortal" as by the end of the game they have extreme "plot-device" powers ranging from completely dominating dead souls (you can order One-of-Many to eat itself) to literally eating the souls of gods (in the evil ending you supposedly do that before being put down by the entire pantheon banding together). So I wouldn't use the actions of the PC of NwN: MotB as a reference for what mortals can do, as they come in very unique and plot-driven flavour. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
190 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2025 : 22:18:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Canonicity of modern stuff like BG3 is uncertain as, if I remember correctly, the official stance has become "we decide what canon is and can change our decision if it suits us for the next product".
BG3 is already having some level of canonicity in that Karlach will be in Heroes of Faerûn, and Astarion is getting his own "book of". I expect the game to get canonised at the same level as the rest of the series: by acknowledging the ending where the fewest things happen as canon. No new gods, no mass death, no vampire ascendant. Maybe an alliance between some githyanki and githzerai, because after having reminded people that Vlaakith exists, WOTC could want to do something interesting with her. But most likely they won't. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2539 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2025 : 19:16:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
it cannot be ignored either
Why not? Says who?
Well, you can ignore it if you want. But then you'll have an incomplete information to build your stuff, and the possibility that your stuff gets invalidated as soon as the writers decide to take into account that info what you were ignoring. That is an issue if you are here talking about official stuff instead of homebrewing.
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
The canonicity of BG1 and BG2 stands...
Ed Greenwood once said that all videogames are canonical in the sense that at least one of the many outcomes will always be canon for the published version of the Realms. In the case of BG1 and BG2, they already mentioned which version they consider canon, as you point out, but this happens with all games.
Which implies that stuff that doesn't have branching options and always happens regardless of player choices, is canon by default (like the information given in in-game books, or the fact that Dagult Neverember went broke after using all of his personal fortune to help rebuild Neverwinter, as revealed in the Neverwinter MMO).
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2025 : 15:10:15
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But why are people so slavishly adherent (and argumentive) about canon?
"Canon" is all about treating the thing as a property, about who legally owns the property, about what they decide to build on that property.
I personally view "canon" as something that Wizbro's lawyers should argue about, not as something their customers should think about.
For example, I happen to very much like Planescape: Torment - a CRPG which happened to create the narrative engine used in BG3 - and I consider it "canon" in terms of "it's real" and "it happened" in my Planescape game, regardless of its official "canon" status or what Wizbro or anyone else should happen to say about it. If those entities are not playing at the same table as me then their opinions on what happens at that gaming table aren't important.
And I happen to dislike the Wall very much - indeed, I happen to dislike almost all 4E lore, along with all subsequent lore which was tainted by it - so I wouldn't consider it relevant in my game, regardless what the official or popular "canon" positions might be.
If I don't like the "canon" then I don't buy the "canon", I don't read the book, I don't play the game, I don't really care about it at all. (And I don't feel qualified to say anything about it if I haven't bothered to try it, lol).
If I think something else should be "canon", or rather I think it belongs in my game, then I make it part of my game. Who cares what it is and where it came from. Isn't this the true Gygaxian spirit the "canon" tries to make us forget?
I personally don't think it's my place to tell other people what they should like and how they should play their games. If they happen to hate Planescape: Torment, love the Wall, and love 4E+ then good for them, I hope they have fun with their games even if I also happen to think they're mainstream chumps with noxious tastes. I have better things to do with my time than argue about a "canon" which doesn't even matter to me. I have, I admit, a rather low opinion of others who seem to stubbornly fixate on the entire matter of "canon" for no reason other than sheer obdurance and juvenile internet trolling - I won't waste more time with them and I recommend others do the same. Let's get back to talking about the Wall? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Sep 2025 15:10:40 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
893 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2025 : 09:14:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
... snip ...
Well, as Gary said, "canon" provides a baseline for consistency so that everyone talking about it knows what they are talking about or at least can gather the information quickly. Sometimes people do adhere too much to it and that feels constricting but some form of "official ruling" is needed to make random people able to have a conversation starting from the same base.
And distinguishing between canon and you own home games is also important, because otherwise you would have people arguing they killed Elminster, are the new Mystra, married Drizzt, conquered Cormyr, etc...
Any of those things happen in your games? Sure, go ahead and have fun. But that's not the status quo of the Forgotten Realms (TM) and you will find a scarcity of people having the exact same events happening in their games.
Now, going back to the Wall, the question of canonicity is important bacause, pardon my exageration, there has been a trend of wailing against it as "canonical catholicism forced on the players" while we have extremely little canon on it to go by. We know it is there and its purpose, we know who put it there (but not when) and that's basically it.
So if in your games you want to ignore it or tear it down or do whatever, obviously you are very welcome to do it. If you want to orchestrate an epic adventure during which the players find out the entire pantheon are just evil sociopaths living to make people miserable, more power to you.
But that's not the canon of the Forgotten Realms. That's not the baseline truth shared by everyone stepping into the setting. That's why it is important to keep canon in mind, whether we like it or not. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2025 : 11:33:59
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Ayrik has a point. Ultimately, canon only absolutely matters in two instances: trivia and employment (even then, there is no guarantee an employer - especially one who acquires an IP from the owner - is going to respect the concept of "canon"). No secret police is going to bust down any doors to arrest folk for their tabletop gaming preferences.
Gary Dallison is also correct. Without consistency, there is no bedrock...no footing. The Forgotten Realms becomes a generic fantasy setting without character. What does it mean to be faithless in The Realms? How is an elf perceived by humanity? Can most pastoral folk safely walk miles from their ancestral home or is danger behind every tree? Is salt just as rare there as it is on Earth? Are most places "magic integrated" or is magic consolidated in the hands of few talented individuals? On and on the questions come. Not all decrees need be followed, but if something is pulled from source material, it should fit - eventually - into the world as it is depicted.
My philosophy (in case anyone cares) is to stick with a TSR edition campaign setting (first or second) and integrate further content as necessary; there is far too much supplementary material for any one Dungeon Master to take into account and not all of it is of high quality...or even merely "decent". To Wizards of the Coast, canon only factors into any internal discussion insofar as it impacts profit or perception (weep for Slut Street); I see no reason to bind myself to their corporate philosophy. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2025 : 13:21:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Not that it is or ever has been slavishly set in stone. Anything can change in canon and has done repeatedly, but it's about the explanation as to why it was once A but is now B that is important, because without that explanation your canon becomes meaningless sludge as it is now tmwith WoTC canon.
This statement is by far the main thing I think people need to realize, and its been the most effective and time honored tradition of the best of the writers to try and "adjust" the lore to fit around prior things and/or conflate two things together in order to "spin" the outcome in a way that is different from what people would have previously thought. Its especially interesting when its done to fix a n accident in the lore.
For instance, at one point, I thought George had made a weird change, only to find out that it had been a prior author and he had simply copied from them in their Impiltur article. So, we discussed it and came up with one of several plausible directions for this.
From Bloodstone Lands
Now in dry dock at Sarshel, Rilaunyr's Warship was once known as the scourge of the Easting Reach. Swift and strong, it patrolled the length of the Reach and out into the Sea of Fallen Stars.
In the heyday of the Impilturian port city, the ship protected merchant vessels putting into or out of Sarshel. Then the shipments of bloodstone bars stopped flowing down from Damara, and Sarshel's importance waned. The Lord Rilaunyr could see how the winds were blowing, and brought his pride into dry-dock for refurbishing.
Rilaunyr longs to get back to sea. He hopes that the flow of bloodstone will soon resume, and restore his city to its former prominence.
then from Unapproachable East in 3e, they suddenly changed Rilaunyr into a female
Sarshel was one of the four city-states that united to form the nation of Impiltur beneath the banner of the great war-captain Imphras almost 300 years ago. The city serves as Impiltur’s gateway to the East and the North. It is governed by two of Impiltur’s Twelve Companions, Lords Rilaunyr (LG female human Pal13) and Silaunbrar (LG male half-elf Pal12).
So... do you just bitch and complain that people have it wrong, or do you say that one side is right moving forward, OR do you take the two sides and find an alternative that makes BOTH right.
So, in this instance, I see several options
A) the female is a kin of the prior Rilaunyr (probably a daughter) who has usurped the father's place (assuming he died). This is a possibility, but not one I favor, simply because of the already high levels that the daughter would have achieved in the exact same class. However, given we don't know his or her age, it could easily work and is simple and cuts to the point.
B) The Admiral of Sarshel's fleet is a transexual who had dressed as a man (or vice versa). This one some may like, but really isn't my cup of tea for Impiltur. I stress here FOR IMPILTUR. It could work someplace else... for instance, I could see this working for some nearby cities in the vast or Sembia or Westgate, etc....
C) Incorporate magic into it. This is what I think of as the best option, especially since the later lore also makes Rilaunyr a paladin of Sune. There could be a good story around this, but my personal take would be that Rilaunyr was previously a paladin of another deity. He then had some magical occurrence that changed him into a female, and for whatever reason, he couldn't get changed back. He had a crisis of faith as a follow up repercussion, and it was a follower of Sune that helped him, and he converted to the worship as a paladin of Sune. Now, what's the story here? Did Rilaunyr's wife get killed? Was his crisis of faith because his wife couldn't accept that she was now married to a woman? Was the follower of Sune that helped convert him male? Female? Did Rilaunyr fall in love with that follower of Sune? Was there some scandal in Sarshel's social ladder? Was the gender change that happened to Rilaunyr done willingly or against his will? Did it involve some sacrifice they had to do in order to stop something horrible? Were demons and/or devils involved (i.e. was there some pact he had to take to get them to change his gender so that he could do something that only a female could do)?
This third option is how I like to see my canon issues dealt with. It opens up story options, and let's face it, that's what we're all interested in to some degree... hearing stories. We still haven't answered all the story questions around this in the above, but rather left them quite open .... and thus DM's can have fun putting their own twist on things.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2025 : 14:52:27
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I'd go for option A, myself. All we know about male Rilaunyr is that he was a paladin with a warship. We don't have levels or stats or know which deity he worshipped.
I don't see it being unlikely that a child would follow in his footsteps, and she could have spent a considerable amount of time as an adventurer before succeeding her father.
And actually, though NPCs generally don't level up quickly, we all know that in-game, a PC can easily go from just starting off to 13th level in just a handful of years, if that long.
I think A is the simplest solution. Sure, you can go for a magical sex change or something, but I think that's a needless complication. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4258 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2025 : 15:16:27
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Time travel and all that...
It is easier, for me, to just play with the originally printed material and then add what best "fits" for my game.
Hells, in my world, Faerun is attached to Greyhawk as well as several other campaign settings all on the same ball o' rock. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1463 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2025 : 15:19:52
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sleyvas, you need to understand that sometimes creators simply make mistakes (i.e., they plain forget or reference the wrong material); other times, creators make changes based on their then-present milieu (or, in certain instances, corporate pressure). Not all discrepancies can be attributed to careful, artistic and objective thought isolated from prevailing sensibilities. Here is another shocker: creators sometimes lie when asked "Why?".
You can tucker yourself out arranging documents, photographs and strings on the corkboard if you wish, but, at the end of the day, there is always the possibility an official outcome you have elected to examine is the result of an unpalatable, unsatisfying or unremarkable origin. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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GUESSING Reason for the wall of the faithless
