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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4462 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2025 : 12:41:35
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Greetings Realms fans!
So, lets talk about Initiate Feats. In 3.5 there were a number of source books that detailed various feats characters of different faiths could take that would have an effect that was on-brand for that Patron deity. These would have some sort of Benefit and then expand that particular class's list of spells. Most of the prominent faiths received some version of this feat (except Kelemvore, very disheartening) which are detailed in Player's Guide to Faerūn, Champions of Valor, and I think a few in Champions of Ruin.
Yet, like many many things - Feats in particular - with the 3.5 Edition, there just didn't seem to be ANY quality control OR standard to go from. These feats run the gambit of being very good, and I mean like {BROKEN} good see Initiate of Mystra aka 'Cheater' of Mystra to really niche and completely easy to overlook for their unimpressive quality.
So in this thread, for those who still tarry about in 3.5-land and like to shop-talk system mechanics, I'd love to go over the Initiate Feats and either discuss why it's good as-is, maybe go over some things that would make them better, or even tone some of them down!
I'll start off the topic with the good ol' Initiate of Torm (Champion of Valor, pg 31-32). This feat is really what started me down the path of looking at a good lot of them and just shaking my head at the randomness of it. But lets get down to it:
The feat starts off, as most do, with your character gaining insight into the greatest secrets of Insert Patron Deity Here church.
Prerequisites Cleric or Paladin 4th, patron deity Torm.
So right off the bat, things aren't great. Really, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason why any of the Initiate Feats are set with the level prerequisite that they have, which range from 1st (Lathander) to 7TH! (Ilmater, Tyr), which means that a Cleric 1 of Lathander gets insight to the church's greatest secrets 8 whole levels before a cleric of Tyr, at level 9 because you don't get access to a feat until then. So, looking at the Initiate of Torm, clerics and paladins aren't getting access until 6th level, which frankly is a prominent level for Divine and combat feats for both classes, thus the feat should at least measure up in that regards.
Benefit You get access to the Smite ability. Now I'll say this is definitely on-par for what you'd find in the Church of Torm, the prominent "Paladin" deity in the Realms. Buuuuuut, then you start to read what it does: it's the generic "Smite" that Destruction domain clerics and the Pious Templar prestige class get, a static +4 bonus to attack roll and usually damage equal to your level. Now the +4 bonus I don't mind in particular, its static but at least it's relatively high as most clerics aren't sporting a 18 Charisma. That said, at later levels, it would've been nice to upgrade the modifier. This is, however, where the fun stops.
The smite ability continues, saying that it's ONLY useful against those followers of Bane and Cyric (and previous incarnations of these deities: Bhaal, Myrkul, Xvim, etc). To add insult to injury, it then ONLY stacks with levels you might have in your combined cleric, paladin,......ranger??? and druid???? levels. What? That doesn't make literally any sense other than they, these are the core PHB classes that cast divine spells. So Favored Souls and literally any PrC that also has smite can go walk off a cliff apparently, lol. Not only that, but this feat is a prerequisite for the Triadic Knight PrC (detailed later on in the book) and none of that class's level count when it comes to using this Feat.
Lastly, they add a few additional spells to the Cleric and Paladin spell list. Clerics get Bless Weapon, Paladins get Command, and both get Hand of Torm. Honestly, none of these spells are bad though I'd say the Paladin's are going to have a hard time ever choosing Command when it's not likely that their Save DCs are going to be all that high to see much use out of it. The barrier effect of the Hand of Torm is cool and can be by-passed by non-Tormite party members by having a Torm-trinket on their person, so that's kinda cool.
So with all that said, TL;DR version is that you get a really limited and poor Smite effect that you'll use a handful of times over your Character's career that eats up a Feat slot you could've spent taking Divine Might, Divine Meta-magic, Shock Trooper, Awesome Smite, Spirited Charge, Extra Turning, Extra Smite, etc. And you get two extra spells.
So in an effort to make 3.5 a better system and to provide options that are fun, useful, and balanced I'm aiming to overhaul this feat (and others in the Initiate of Your Deity) for people to use.
Initiate of Torm [Initiate]
You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Torms church.
Prerequisites: Cleric or paladin 3rd, patron deity Torm.
Benefit: You gain the smite power, the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack once per day with a +4 bonus (or a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier, whichever is higher) on the attack roll and a bonus on damage rolls equal to the sum of your cleric or paladin levels, in addition to levels of other classes that might grant the smite feature. The smiting power of Torm is particularly devastating against his sworn enemies. The damage from your smite feature (one granted by this feat or smites obtained from a class like the paladin) is doubled against followers of Bane, Cyric, or Mask (including former incarnations or variants of those deities, such as Bhaal, Myrkul, or Xvim).
In addition, you add the following spells to your cleric or paladin spell list.
1stbless weapon (cleric only), shield of faith (paladin only)
4thhand of Torm (see Magic of Faerūn)
So, changes I made are:
Drop the level down to 3rd, allowing clerics or paladins to use their 3rd level feat slot for this. Doing this frees up their more valuable 6th level slot, it also gives low-level play a bit more power.
The Smite power is +4 OR Cha-modifier, whichever is higher. This helps out characters who might not have a ton in their Charisma but also keeps it relevant at later levels should that stat get boosted.
The Smite itself can target anyone (see Pious Templar, Crusader smite) but it's particularly devastating against Torm's sworn foes. Not just the smite from this feat, but smites gained anywhere else. You're a champion of Torm's faith, your smites should all be devastating against these foes. I added in Mask because when you read Player's Guide to Faerūn there's a blurb there about Deity Grudge Matches, and Mask is listed as one of Torms, which makes sense. So the Smite remains effective for the character most days they're adventuring, but particularly good in specific situations.
The Smite stacks with the appropriate base classes that can take the Feat (Cleric and Paladin) plus any class that has access to Smite, meaning that you can take a Prestige Class with a smite feature (Triadic Knight, Fist of Raziel, Gray Guard) and the feat remains useful.
I changed the spell for the Paladin from Command, a rather mediocre spell for a class that struggles to maintain good DC saves, with Shield of Faith, a very good defensive spell that paladin's will get FAR more use out of.
As always, Criticism and ideas are welcome. Could I make this feat better? Do you think the previous version was fine as-is (If so, I'd love to hear why)? Also, which Initiate Feat should we cover next?
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Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
Edited by - Diffan on 10 Jun 2025 14:39:30
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
538 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2025 : 21:00:47
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Is there anyway of wording this:
"a bonus on damage rolls equal to the sum of your cleric or paladin levels"
To cover divine PrCs? Maybe caster level? Or any PrC that progresses divine casting?
I know sometimes 3.5 goes crazy with level dipping but I tend to favor over powering feats vs under. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 10 Jun 2025 21:16:31 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4462 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2025 : 22:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
Is there anyway of wording this:
"a bonus on damage rolls equal to the sum of your cleric or paladin levels"
To cover divine PrCs? Maybe caster level? Or any PrC that progresses divine casting?
I know sometimes 3.5 goes crazy with level dipping but I tend to favor over powering feats vs under.
Well I worded the feat in a way that does help with stacking from any Prestige Class that also has the smite feature, although I admit that it is limited to those specifically. Thinking about tying it to Caster Level is tough since Paladins CL is half their class level. You could phrase it in a way that ties it to your Hit Die or CL, whichever is higher, but that really incentives dropping out of the Paladin class as early as possible. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Initiate Feats Discussion, and how to fix them 3.5
