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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2024 : 04:36:22
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So did the dilemma I have. We are playing a long campaign of a war in the realms based in cormyr playing a mix for purple dragons, blue dragon, war wizard and other dragons.
Leader is Constal purple dragon that is a kensai to the king (lawful neutral)
Myself Captain Boldshield blue dragon that is a playing a class called a Judge (Judge Dread style military police) (lawful neutral)
War wizard that is a Alarphons (evil)
Purple dragon dwarf kensai (lawful neutral)
And last a black dragon which for our game is a spy (rogue) (lawful neutral
My PC is like a grey guard class, i uphold the laws of the lands and no one is above them except for the king as they are his laws, for the class I am I have a code to follow as well.
Code of Cormyr
1. Loyalty to the Crown
2. Uphold the Laws of the Realm
3. Serve the Kingdom’s Interests
4. Impartiality and Fairness
5. Duty to the People
6. Integrity and Honor
7. Wisdom and Prudence
8. Loyalty to the Legal System
9. Respect for the Sovereign’s Authority
10. Oath of Fealty
11. Divine or Moral Guidance
12. Uphold the Kingdom’s Honor
The kensai has an Oath of service in the class and in this game, it is to service to the king of cormyr
Now here is the dilemma, we had a mission to capture a mind flyer that had information on a spy in the royal court in our last game we had a major battle with some of the enemy major players. Long story short captured him and got away with him. As he was quite powerful, he was knocked down all the time. The war wizard asked us to leave the room with the mind flyer and the constal stayed with him. The war wizard shapechanged into a mind flyer and extracted his brain to learn what he knows. I wasn't in the room so i don't know that happened. In the thoughts in the mind flyer the war wizards see a cormyrain noble at meeting with the enemy leaders.
What happens next is where is the problem, the constal want to interrogate him straight away, I said as we are back on our land we must follow the laws of the land (a boldshield is the enforcing authority of the King's law) and just going by a vision you have seen might not be enough as he is a noble. Then the next argument is about if the constal needs to break the laws that is ok with him, and everybody else must agree to it.
If we plain old purple dragons ok i get it, but we are two classes that have oaths and codes to the king, we have to follow.
The kensai Believe's because he is protecting the king it is ok to break the laws and doesn't not affect his kensai oath of service.
but wouldn't breaks the kings laws be a disservice to the king?
And has asked me can I be thrust to follow orders even if I have to break the law in my own land
I understand that it is a time of war and etc. but cormyr foundation is built on law and justice. And it would be a dishonor to the king
Under the section
Loyalty to the Crown
Defend the Sovereign: The Boneshield Judge must protect the honor, authority, and person of the monarch, ensuring that the throne is respected and upheld.
Is breaking his laws going against this?
Plus, extracting the brain and eating them is an evil act??
this is a problem as well (if I knew) would this not been seen as a threat to the crown and land?
It has been asked to do atonement but has said no for the moment
How would a good king or battlemaster look on this of high rank officers disregarding the laws and breaking oath of service to the king or Boldshield break his code of featly to the king?
This main question is if you are an officer of the law and your told to break the law because it is war it is ok?? But can a kensai do this without been disciplined or loses class abilities?
As a boldshield (military police) do I arrest him if he does break the laws over and over?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2024 : 15:37:32
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I would consider the charge to be under investigation and refer the question to the King at first chance. The law broken appears to further the King's interest and he might have ordered it. If there is already a standing order for this type of data collection , then you would have much more limited choices, arrest would be required, however even then confinement is not required.
I offer this idea.
"Ralf, I am sorry I have to arrest you. If you promises to report for trial, lets us complete our mission."
If because who is a Captain of the squad maybe , not mention arrest, however at least indicate that you will report it as a concern as part of duty. I am thinking about various movies that a lower level office asks for order in writing if ordered to break standing orders. Never seen that IRL. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2024 : 23:23:01
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thanks for the reply, to answer a question for you the king did not give us the orders it was the high marstall. i think the main issue is with two characters that have oaths and codes that have that are nearly on par with a paladin. because if we break these oaths we lose our powers and abilities. This Kensai has taken an Oath of Service to the king. This means they have sworn a sacred vow to serve the king above all else, dedicating their life to the protection and well-being of the realm. Their oath is not taken lightly; it binds them to a path of duty, discipline, and unwavering loyalty.
Because of this oath, the Kensai is strict in their actions and beliefs. They follow a rigid code of conduct, holding themselves and others to the highest standards. Their strictness isn't just about following rules; it’s about maintaining the honor of their position, ensuring that they are always ready to defend the king and the kingdom, no matter the cost.
In essence, this Kensai is a disciplined, loyal warrior who embodies the principles of honor and duty, always acting in the best interest of the king and the realm, guided by their oath and the noble traditions of the Purple Dragon. so the question is can he break the law of the land without repercussions on his class and in the army? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2024 : 06:17:48
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"Inter arma enim silent leges"
"In times of war, the laws are silent"
An aphorism attributed to ancient Rome which basically says that laws are suspended when wars are being fought. Variations of this quote are still sometimes used in political or academic contexts into modern times. Regardless what may be authorized in theory, martial law always has greater authority than peacetime law in practice and war always has ultimate power over the normal laws and crimes it replaces.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_arma_enim_silent_leges |
[/Ayrik] |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2024 : 22:01:10
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thanks for the fed back
this isn’t best example #128521;
“Inter amra enim silent leges"
"In times of war, the laws are silent"
This was used a lot in Rome for politically-motivated mob violence was common. Armed gangs led by partisan leaders controlled the streets of Rome.
In more modern times it has been used but more to justify upheld the detention of a US citizen as an enemy combatant without charge or suspension of habeas corpus.
but I think my point is been missed.
maybe a good example is if two paladins had this problem. One wants to break good laws because it is he thinks be is above them now.
And the other one that doesn’t want to break the laws because of a code of service he has to follows.
But doesn’t want to go against the officer in charge
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2024 : 08:12:38
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Trying to figure out the shape of a spherical horse in vacuum at once is not a good way to come up with practical principles, just try simple situations.
The first and obvious problem that creates "silent leges" is this: "If your country is invaded by an enemy army, you can't arrest every soldier wearing the wrong uniform, and charge them with trespassing". That's just using tools obviously inadequate for the task.
The second sample problem: treating a hostile organized armed force or elements thereof as an exception to the above just because it does not wear uniforms of a foreign state would be... strange.
Consider detached elements such as various scouts, saboteurs, etc. Should they be an exception? If not, consider that the simplest way to deal with this could be temporary detention of everyone in an endangered area who might be one, until either they are confirmed to not be hostile combatants, or the issue is rendered moot. Obviously, peacetime law of sane countries tend to not involve such disruptive actions. Thus, martial law overrides it in times and places where it makes sense.
Third problem: if for some strange reason such an exception was made and enforced (perhaps by a theocracy tangled in contortions of its own doctrine), the likely result of created vulnerability would be not even other countries taking advantage, but warlords raising like mushrooms after a summer rain, capturing and holding defensible (from other warlords) areas, the moment they can defeat or deter a common local police force, while the rest of the state is compelled to beat around the bush until this dysfunction goes away one way or another. You see how silly it is.
Conversely, since the sane powers understand this, they generally are capable of rating threats by the amounts of trouble and costs of removal - sometimes with categories designated exactly and explicitly:
quote:
13. By "thieves" (Peofas) we mean men up to the number seven; by "a band" (hloo) from seven to thirty-five; by "an army" (here) above thirty-five.
- Selected Laws of Ine, 688-695
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2024 : 16:35:39
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Ok I see what you are saying, but there is flaw in most of these answers and now your hairs are standing up on the back of your necks of someone like myself suggestion this you have made a mistake.
You are are working on the theory and premise this is based of real-world actions in history
Real-world scenarios operate under natural laws (physics, social norms, etc.), while role-playing games often have their own set of unique, sometimes fantastical, rules. These rules allow for magic, superhuman abilities, or unusual social structures. Trying to argue against role-playing scenarios from a real-world perspective ignores the fact that RPGs exist in worlds that are intentionally separate from real-world logic.
As I said the question is would a paladin or class with same style oath and penalty if they broke the laws in their own lawful goodish country?
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2024 : 19:53:56
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| The FR paladin is loyal first to his or god, even before the land's law. As long as the law does not explicitly contradict the god's teachings, yes, the paladin would be obligated to follow the law. If the law contradicts the god's teachings, the paladin is obligated to refuse to comply. |
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in time of war do laws matter??
