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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 21 May 2004 : 10:11:30
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..."a few words"...yeah right  .
Late last night, I received an email request from a fellow scribe here at Candlekeep asking me for my thoughts on fiends (particularly baatezu) and honour. Since I feel others may find this discussion interesting, I'll repost my reply here along with a portion of the original email.
Original email request -
quote:
so i had created a baatezu(barbazu) that has honor in the way he does not, kill innocents, those who plea for mercy, women, children, or rape, torture for pleasure, lie or cheat in such a method it would kill them, and engage in bullying acts. so does that defy the essence of the baatezu or is itr possible to have one like that?
Yes and no. Those are two seperate questions.
First of all, baatezu may have a twisted sense of honor. But this will only be honor within their own strict parameters, their own twisted sense of worth. A fiend will only ever think of itself, first and foremost, and it will even go to considerable lengths to cause pain to others.
Forget thinking like a mortal. Fiends aren't even always evil for a reason, beyond evil itself. It is a philosophy, a way of life - arguably beyond the fiend's control, even - that makes baatezu cause harm to others. There is no redeeming feature, no *real* honor, and nothing remotely good to be said about them.
Granted, they do work with the law. It defines them as much as evil...but it matters little. Their "brand" of evil is simply like that, structured, planned and predictable. If a baatezu chose not to kill innocents and those who plea for mercy...if a baatezu chose not to rape and torture, then it is for an ulterior motive, that will be just as evil.
We often say that humans are capable of so much evil. Well, think of the worst of mankind, the most despicable, every time you think of a fiend. Only remember to keep it lawful, in the case of the baatezu.
However, to address your second question, you could possibly have a fiend like that. Afterall anything is possible on the planes, basher! 
A fiend like that will feel a great pain watching the atrocities of his fellows, and for a fiend, those feelings are wholly unnatural. Most likely, that fiend will never rise high, for in order to rise in the strict baatezu ranks (or descend them, depending on who you ask), the fiend must perfect its evil.
Such a fiend would most likely be killed by its own kin when the "taint of good" is discovered, and would have to live in constant fear of that discovery. Some of those fiends would turn rogue.
You see, just like celestials can fall, so can fiends rise. It is the flip side of the coin. Belief moves entire planes, so why shouldn't it move a single fiend?
It will most likely be a hard life. Nobody in the know really trusts a fiend, no matter how 'reformed' it is. Too many have been burned, and too many hate them too much. And of course the fiend's ancient enemies, the tanar'ri, won't care a hoot whether it is risen or not. Their hatred is driven by stronger forces than mortal hatred. It is, all in all, a very difficult path to take.
However, those who manage it are the greatest triumphs of Good over Evil, the very examples that celestials spout when they participate in philosophical debates in Sigil. These fiends are really something special, and even the most leatherheaded berk realizes it.
There are examples of both risen tanar'ri and risen baatezu, and possibly other races as well...but it is worth mention that no known yugoloth has ever risen. Few know why, but most speculate that the yugoloths have balanced their evil completely, and are even more utterly incapable of it than the other fiends. Others say that the 'loths do not have free will.
Still others whisper in dark corners, their eyes darting maniacally side to side, that the high-up 'loths carefully see to it that any yugoloth displaying any sort of taint is destroyed...to protect their secrets. And they also say that the 'loths go to great lengths to make sure that this taint isn't there in their soldiers. But these chant-mongers usually end up dead in the gutter, so who knows?
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 12:57:28
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I agree with your opinion on 'risen' fiends. Possibly my most exotic PC was a risen canomorph (that is a hell hound, who has learned to take human shape), who was shown the light by a priest of Eldath. He went through all sorts of mental torture, and never became 'pure', but he was all the more righteous, because of his past crimes and his eternal taint.
Still - I think risen fiends should be much rarer than fallen celestials. After all, evil is the easier path. Plus, where celestials would spend time trying re-convert their fallen comrade, fiends would (quite happily) just slay a risen fiend.
Finally - I agree about yugoloths being un-risable (sounds like a loaf of bread!) They're just too darned evil. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 15:06:24
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The concept of a risen fiend comes from Faces of Evil: The Fiends, and they do mention one name.
K'rand Vahlix, a male hamatula, who organizes reformed fiends into the celestial armies. He also makes sure that traitors and would-be assassins don't manage to masquerade as reformed fiends. They say this blood killed his cornugon superior and fled to Bytopia.
I also remember a risen hezrou from a live-action roleplaying adventure hosted on the Mimir called the Door to Everywhere. Sadly that section is missing, but I think I still have it somewhere in my archives.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 15:09:06
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I think all of this certainly represents a distraction from the "essence of the baatezu," but it might be possible for such an anomaly to exist within the hierarchy at that level without being cast out.
According to Faces of Evil, the lessons of the barbazu caste are savage determination drives one quite efficiently and it takes more skill than luck to survive.
Being a barbazu, the devil couldn't have been very exceptional in its older incarnations. Most barbazus are dull and unintelligent. Let's try this scenario: due to an upsurge of Law or an exceptionally rigid dharmic pattern, a baatezu is created with a number of taboos that it will not break. Being nonetheless evil, it doesn't entirely understand why, and it finds these prohibitions make its work more difficult. Still, a barbazu's work isn't that complicated: they fight, usually in the Blood War. This is certainly possible without hurting innocents, since there are precious few innocents among the tanar'ri. Its superiors saw some promise in the creature but decided to make it a barbazu in order to teach it the savagery and ruthlessness it would need to advance much higher.
Now, this creature could actually be quite brilliant for a barbazu, skillful and good at killing demons (or, possibly, defending one of the layers of Baator). Until it learned the brutality that barbazus are expected to know, it probably wouldn't get promoted.
But would it actually become fallen/risen/cast out? Not necessarily, not until its sense of honor forced it to choose between its superiors/allies and an innocent. Perhaps someday it will have to make such a choice.
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A few words on Baatezu and honour...
