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 Combining spells.. right or wrong or meant to be?
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Naroon Shimmerflow
Learned Scribe

Norway
104 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2024 :  22:01:49  Show Profile Send Naroon Shimmerflow a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Greetings sages of the realms

We have played ad&d 2nd ed FR for 30 years and our ongoing campaign is on its 25th year or something. We are high level 17-24 and with that comes a responsibility to not break the system we all love. In my experience and humble opinion many of the skills, powers and spells in 2nd ad is up to us to interpret and understand. the meaning and though behind every spell is not always easy to get. sometimes something is possible, but maybe not how it is intended to be used.

So we just got a new player in our group. awesome guy, intelligent and funny. Hes very good at understand systems and finding out how to use them to his benefit. all cudos to him:)

He made a 24th lvl wizard and he made some crazy spell combos I want your opinion on:

he uses Algarth`s Embattlement (9th lvl). within that spell he combines Snilloc's Major Missile with Pierce any shield (9th lvl) and some spell that makes him do max damage without rolling dice (The Simbul's Spell Supremacy?). I dont know his full setup and spell list, sorry) So when he cast his spell it does max damage and pierce any shield.

I guess my question to you guys are; Can someone use pierce any shield, the max damage spell and fire off a major missile in one round using the embattlement spell.. and Is that how It`s ment to be used?

Thank you for any thought and replies :)

Good dice rolls, beats good tactics anytime[/size=1]

Kentinal
Great Reader

4685 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2024 :  01:30:09  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Algarth`s Embattlement
quote:
Stored spells are still memorized and prevent the caster from memoriz­ing other spells in their place. For each spell stored the caster loses 1d4 hit points that cannot be regained until the stored spell is cast. (At that time, the damage can be restored by healing or rest; the hit points do not return automatically.)

Spells of any level that the wizard can cast can be stored. They can be unleashed by silent act of will at any time, at a maximum speed of two spells per round.


This text would appear only two of the stored spells can be cast each round.

The Simbul's Spell Supremacy
quote:
This powerful, little-known spell has won the Simbul many magical duels. It allows the caster's next two spells to be cast by silent act of will alone, without material components, and with a casting time of 1. Moreover, both spells manifest for their full possible damage and duration. Spell supremacy is only effective in aug­menting the effects of spells of 6th level or less. If the caster uses more powerful spells, they do not benefit, but the spell supremacy magic is exhausted in any case.

Notes: Restricted to the Seven Sisters, their apprentices, and select Harpers; very rare


Putting this together, if the PC is one of the very rare Harpers it would appear possible that the DM would allow it to work. It of course should be noted that
Snilloc's Major Missile Notes: Rare or very rare spell
Pierce Any Shield is Spell Level 9

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2024 :  06:04:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm looking at the more raw mechanics of this.

The PC wizard is dedicating something like four high-level spell slots to assure maximum success on a single magical attack.

Okay. Impressive. Nuke one target.

But then what happens when this four-spell attack is used against a four-spell defense?

Use the PC tactics against the PCs. See what kind of countermeasures they can devise. It's always easy enough to make your villain escape after surviving a single devastating attack - or to have a spy observe and sell this information to the next villain - and basically turn this apparently unstoppable multi-spell attack combo into something less potent. The defense might be something as simple as a change of tactics - anything from magic mirror or other illusions to simulacra or dopplegangers to simply throwing a massive horde of zombie kobolds against the party. If a villain expects his opponents/enemies/victims to be armed with a magic bullet then he's not going to make himself a target unless he feels bulletproof.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11688 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2024 :  14:07:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, he's casting Algarth's Embattlement (9th level), Pierce Any Shield (9th level), Snilloc's Major Missile

so, at 24th level, it will do 12d4+12 damage (and if max'd... 60 damage).... but Max'ing would imply that he was casting the Simbul's Spell supremacy in the same round (I would definitely rule that the Simbul's spell supremacy CANNOT affect spells being cast INTO the Algarth's Embattlement beforehand... it stores SPELLS... NOT ENHANCED/MODIFIED BY ANOTHER SPELL SPELLS). So, he'd have to have the Simbul's Spell Supremacy (level 7) memorized, cast it, and then cast the spells from his embattlement next round. So, he can do all this min/maxing to get a single spell that does 60 damage... ok...

In order to do this, his algarth's embattlement will need to hold at least 2 spells, which means he has a permanent loss of 1d4 hit points PER SPELL STORED UNTIL THEY ARE RELEASED.... i.e. no healing after casting.

In order to do this, he has to take the time to memorize all of these spells..... bear in mind, in 2nd edition this is not a minor thing... its 10 minutes per spell level.. so 2 9th, a 5th, and a 7th would require (9+9+7+5)x10= 300 minutes.. or 5 hours. I mainly mention this because you really should look into how spells he's casting... sure a 24th level caster can bring a fight... but if they drain all their spells, it can take DAYS (MULTIPLE) just to refill their spells.... and ONLY if they have a full night's sleep uninterrupted.

How to combat this effect? Simple possibly depending on other factors... illusion... If the guy doesn't have something that makes him automatically see through illusions or automatically see invisibility always active, have the enemy using something as simple as a mirror image, or an improved invsibility. If not that... obfuscation... a skeleton in a robe that has imbue undead with spell ability can sure look like a lich and draw attacks.

For that matter, having him face off against someone who has similar abilities can cut him down a bit. For instance, a wizard might have three animated skeletal rats in a room. They may be in small hidey holes/arrow slits at corners at the top of a wall... behind illusions over the arrow slits. Each rat has imbue undead with spell ability (6th level) cast upon them. The 3 spells are proof from teleportation (3rd level), wall of force (5th lvl), and cloudkill (5th lvl). So, someone comes into the room, the proof from teleport is dropped first, then the cloudkill.. which prevents spellcasting in second edition in most instances since the person is automatically taking damage, then the wall of force as a dome effect to cut off nearly any ability to leave the cloudkill. To note, this can all be done by a wizard who has spells of max 6th level.... If you want to be really nasty, put a fourth skeletal rat within the area of the cloudkill.. maybe there's a lot of mouse bones littering the floor (or maybe there's a lot of mouse bones in a drain underneath the floor (more on that later)... and it won't be hurt by the cloudkill. Have this last mouse cast stone shape (5th level) and start shaping the stone of the floor UPWARDS.... crushing the people enclosed in the wall of force upwards INTO the wall of force or at least entrapping them to the point that they can't move. If there's a lot of small animated rats, they might even be able to walk inside this area between the "stone bubble" and the "force dome" and start gnawing on the entrapped PC's.

To note, if you did this last trick... there is no need to reveal HOW it was done. If the rats all acted from behind their illusions and didn't actually reveal themselves moving, there's no hint that the tricks were all done with imbue undead with spell ability.... but having several of the major PC's killed by small skeletal rats slowly gnawing them to death while a cloudkill slowly drains them can really give them a memorable experience.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2024 :  03:40:06  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Really, all that effort to absolutely assure 60 points of damage?

Power Word: Kill does 60 points of damage if the target successfully saves. (The target is simply killed outright on a failed save.)

Imagine casting that four times at one target.

And remember that we're talking about 2E rules here. I still say the best defense vs this spell attack is to direct their PCs attentions to your group of simulacra (along with all their mirror images). You might have that one-shot-one-kill super attack prepared ... so which target are you going to use it on?

[/Ayrik]
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2382 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2024 :  02:21:18  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Each rat has imbue undead with spell ability (6th level) cast upon them.
...
cast stone shape (5th level) and start shaping the stone of the floor UPWARDS....

While Imbue Undead with Spell Ability gives an undead creature one spell to use, it does not give the mindless undead ability to meaningfully control that spell. So while stone shape, audible glamer, force sculpture and so on are technically eligible...
I would add something like confusion to this deathtrap. And/or simple darkness before cloudkill. To reduce chances that the victims would react quickly enough.
Also, spells that don't lock out spell-slots generally are preferable. The main advantage of Imbue Undead with Spell Ability is mobility, and if you need to set up hide-holes or passages for rat skeletons so that they could arrive at the same ground zero without being whacked? It's easier and more reliable to just place a bunch of conventional trap spells. Though "undead rat logic circuit" does sound like some megaproject from Dwarf Fortress.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe

USA
297 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2024 :  05:08:56  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This combo looks good. And it is not even close to a "crazy combo". Major Missile only does 60 or so damage... It seems the player has the 2E spell compendium.

There is at least one 'metamagic' spell in those 2E books that does maximum damage. One is Maximum Damage, an elf spell from the 2E Evermeet book...and I think it's only like 6th level too. Mysrtrea, where Peirce Any Shield is from, also has a max damage spell.
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