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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2024 : 21:02:36
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There seems to be scant information regarding the pre-pre history of the Realms with most of the information to be found limited to the 4e campaign guide(?).
I’m really curious about time though and what these ancient eras were like. Is Toril (or at the time Abeir-Toril) as ancient as the real world? Did dinosaurs appear millions of years ago like here on earth or were they around mostly during the time of the Serpent Kingdoms and Sarrukh?
Does Toril have a Jurassic period? A Devonian period? Was it just the primordials and gods at that time and did they do nothing but wait around for millions of years? Was this the time of the spellweaver and illithid empires? Aboleth and their ilk?
I know some of the answers to these questions but I’m wondering what Ed thinks particularly. I can’t imagine a magical universe with very clearly ambitious and free thinking entities existing where nothing goes on for entire epochs of time.
Edit: Just wanted to mention my brain is going here because I’m thinking of a magical mishap occurring that sends my PCs WAY back and I don’t know what for them to expect. The Blue Era seems kind of weird if you have a waterworld with primordials like Maegera running around but whatever. Instead, I might have them find a preserved ruin that predates even the Days of Thunder.
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Edited by - Seethyr on 20 Jan 2024 21:09:03
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2024 : 23:45:42
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I haven't found much about it. Draconomicon (2e) mentions the existence of dinosaurs, or at least the equivalent of them. They were big creatures, divided into different species from which we just know the eodraco. Stardeep (the novel) mentions this was a time were aberrations (the ancestors of aboleths and such, like the Abolethic Sovereignty) ruled the world, and powerful beings opposed them ("gods, probably, or whatever passed for gods before people were around to call them divine.").
So, something like the prehistory of Cthulhu mythos? Lovecraft's The Shadow Out of Time can be of help for inspiration. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Jan 2024 23:46:57 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2024 : 00:44:22
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I really like thinking about this too.
I think there was likely a VERY long time before "recorded" history. A time when even the Aboleth were not known and slowly evolved from.
While it is cool to have races full blown created, I really like to have a combination of both evolution and creation in my game.
My own realms does have a very ancient past.
BUT...I haven't found anything either.
Recorded/Known Realms History is very ancient as it is; but having a deep pre-history would be really cool I think. If the Sarrukh "just came to be" isn't as cool as if they evolved from the past into what they became. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2024 : 03:47:39
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So, my theory is that the pre-(-40000 DR) world was humans and beasts. I think a reasonable explanation can be found for every sentient race starting from there.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2024 : 04:03:24
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So, my theory is that the pre-(-40000 DR) world was humans and beasts. I think a reasonable explanation can be found for every sentient race starting from there.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2024 : 15:00:29
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The simple answer is we don't know. And I'm not sure Ed did either, the Dawn War, the splitting of Abeir and Toril and all that jazz was a retcon created by the 4E team. I think Ed's preference was always to keep the mythic dawn of the world as a mystery.
Based on canonical material, we know that Realmspace was created - probably by Ao, or his unseen boss and then assigned to Ao later on - and that Selune and Shar were the first gods to form and be given the task of looking after Realmspace. We know the primordials interfered and were defeated, and Selune and Shar helped create more gods to help guide Realmspace to greatness, the first of whom was Chauntea. Then Selune and Shar quarrelled over the creation of the Sun and from their battle was formed Mystryl, who forced and end to their struggles. The Sun was ignited, Toril cooled and became a world with a planet-covering ocean and aquatic civilisations which were then destroyed by the returning primordials. In the subsequent war, the Sun was swallowed by Dendar, Toril froze over again, the gods imprisoned the primordials and the Sun re-ignited, but apparently not as much as before, with the supercontinent of Merrouroboros jutting above the waves. Then we enter recorded history with the rise of the sarrukh c. 35,000 BDR (or about 36,500 years before the present day).
There is absolutely no indication given on how long all that took: it could have been a few millennia or it could have been millions or even billions of years. There is for me, however, a potential anomaly in that the gods to some extent need mortal worship to thrive. That seems to suggest that the gods were not siting around for aeons whilst single-celled organisms arose, dinosaurs showed up and went extinct etc. They needed to cut to the chase of having people worshipping them much faster than that. Also, given that the D&D multiverse doesn't seem to give two hoots about realism or real science, we should probably not be counting on that to suddenly be the case here. My feeling then is that the Age of Creation and Blue Age spanned vast spans of time, but more like tens to hundreds of thousands of years, not billions.
My take on it was also that all humans (100% of them) came from Earth originally, even long before the arrival of the Mulan when we first get the stories of human tribes in Katashaka and then settling in Keltormir, just as all elves originally came from Arvandor or the Feywild/Faerie. There is more ambiguity around the dwarves, gnomes etc. |
Edited by - Werthead on 22 Jan 2024 15:02:14 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2024 : 22:05:24
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I love these answers. Thank you.
Some things to think about. The ba’etith began with the sarrukh and it was their mission to study the various forms of primitive magic and record it all. That means there certainly were some magic heavy peoples beforehand. Considering Eric’s response regarding humans, are there any incidents in FR lore where we have an example of a Neanderthal appearing? |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2024 : 14:43:49
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Ruins of Adventure has a tribe of 50 Neanderthals living in the hills near Phlan. The Shattered Statue has another group living in the Thunder Peaks. They appear in fiction in "A Worm Too Soft" in Realms of Magic.
They appear to be an offshoot of the ancient humans who appeared in the Days of Thunder, but never went extinct (unlike on Earth). |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2024 : 17:01:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
The simple answer is we don't know. And I'm not sure Ed did either, the Dawn War, the splitting of Abeir and Toril and all that jazz was a retcon created by the 4E team. I think Ed's preference was always to keep the mythic dawn of the world as a mystery.
Based on canonical material, we know that Realmspace was created - probably by Ao, or his unseen boss and then assigned to Ao later on - and that Selune and Shar were the first gods to form and be given the task of looking after Realmspace. We know the primordials interfered and were defeated, and Selune and Shar helped create more gods to help guide Realmspace to greatness, the first of whom was Chauntea. Then Selune and Shar quarrelled over the creation of the Sun and from their battle was formed Mystryl, who forced and end to their struggles. The Sun was ignited, Toril cooled and became a world with a planet-covering ocean and aquatic civilisations which were then destroyed by the returning primordials. In the subsequent war, the Sun was swallowed by Dendar, Toril froze over again, the gods imprisoned the primordials and the Sun re-ignited, but apparently not as much as before, with the supercontinent of Merrouroboros jutting above the waves.
Regarding this, Ed said in a Q&A recently (like in December, 2023) that we shouldn't take these tales at face value. They are mythology, after all (the guys at Ed Greenwood's Grotto in Discord are transcripting the Q&A, so it'll take a while to get a written quote). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Jan 2024 17:04:08 |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2024 : 23:02:32
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I get the distinct impression that Ed is gently pushing back on established-but-badly-thought-out WotC Forgotten Realms canon, particularly from the 4E-5E era (but some 2E-3E stuff) that he doesn't agree with and had been enacted over his objections. He also said fairly recently that the well-established world maps that have been used in multiple products since the FRIA in 1999 are all incorrect and there are many more continents that we don't know about, and Osse is much smaller and the Zakhkara-Faerun supercontinent is not the largest landmass in the world etc.
Which is all fair to say, but I think it's creating confusion whether Ed is talking about his OG Realms (1967-87), the published Realms but when he was more heavily involved and consulted (1987-2007, arguably), or the more recent Realms (2007-now) where WotC has been making dubious lore decisions but these have been canonised in publications, where Ed was not involved much (aside from his brief comeback to fix the Spellplague with the Second Sundering). I think it's creating a situation where it can be confusing if Ed is talking for his own person view of the Realms untroubled by TSR/WotC actions, or for the setting in its final form.
Mind you, WotC themselves have been hugely contradicting themselves. In particular, stuff established in 4E seems to be being torched on a near-daily basis, so maybe the Primordial stuff will go with it, even though Primordial references have continued in the 5E era. |
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DoveArrow
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2024 : 16:06:23
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| I think a big reason we don't get a lot of information about it is because it's inspired by cosmic horror. A big part of what makes that genre alluring is the creepy mystery of it all. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2024 : 19:49:46
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quote:
Originally posted by DoveArrow
I think a big reason we don't get a lot of information about it is because it's inspired by cosmic horror. A big part of what makes that genre alluring is the creepy mystery of it all.
I agree with that, but the cosmic horror side should (and this is just my opinion) predate the gods and dinosaurs and such. In other words, if Toril has a somewhat similar origin to the 4.5 billion year old Earth, the Great Old Ones/Far Realm stuff should be our version of the Big Bang. There was no universe at the time, just weirdness and it has carried to now. I love including Draeden discussion in that topic too. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2024 : 00:38:20
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I don't think there's any indication at all that Toril has a "realistic" scientific origin or backstory at all, as the D&D multiverse is so radically different to it. The gods hanging around for 4 billion years - without anyone worshipping them but they don't "starve" to death from a lack of worship in the meantime - is pretty implausible.
Something that would be interesting would be to get Ed's idea on the universe the Realms was part of before it became part of the D&D Multiverse, which only happened in 1987, twenty years after he created it. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2024 : 13:05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
The gods hanging around for 4 billion years - without anyone worshipping them but they don't "starve" to death from a lack of worship in the meantime - is pretty implausible.
I would just like to point out that "death from lack of worship" was apparently a new rule set by Ao after the ToT, to make deities actually care for and engage with their flocks and not simply threat them as fodder or giving them for granted. Deities were quite resilient before that, with most of the known-to-be-perished gods being killed/subsumed by another god.
Also the first(?) goddesses of the human pantheon that we know about (first generation Selune and Shar, and second generation Chauntea and Mystryl) are more akin to cosmic forces/primordials than 4E deities,so I bet they could sit around alone/with each other (which is basically the backstory of Selune and Shar) for quite some time without problems.
Actually, Shar misses the time it was only her and her sister so badly she wants to destroy everything to get back then ... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2024 : 17:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
I get the distinct impression that Ed is gently pushing back on established-but-badly-thought-out WotC Forgotten Realms canon, particularly from the 4E-5E era (but some 2E-3E stuff) that he doesn't agree with and had been enacted over his objections. He also said fairly recently that the well-established world maps that have been used in multiple products since the FRIA in 1999 are all incorrect and there are many more continents that we don't know about, and Osse is much smaller and the Zakhkara-Faerun supercontinent is not the largest landmass in the world etc.
Mind you, WotC themselves have been hugely contradicting themselves. In particular, stuff established in 4E seems to be being torched on a near-daily basis, so maybe the Primordial stuff will go with it, even though Primordial references have continued in the 5E era.
I would tend to agree with this assessment |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2024 : 19:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
The gods hanging around for 4 billion years - without anyone worshipping them but they don't "starve" to death from a lack of worship in the meantime - is pretty implausible.
I would just like to point out that "death from lack of worship" was apparently a new rule set by Ao after the ToT, to make deities actually care for and engage with their flocks and not simply threat them as fodder or giving them for granted. Deities were quite resilient before that, with most of the known-to-be-perished gods being killed/subsumed by another god.
Nope, death for lack of worship was always the case even before Ao "created" that law. Ed Greenwood said once that Ao "creating" that law was an inside joke reference to Ao actually knowing nothing about how the Realms worked.
https://x.com/TheEdVerse/status/1530630214820175878?s=20 |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2024 : 19:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
Mind you, WotC themselves have been hugely contradicting themselves. In particular, stuff established in 4E seems to be being torched on a near-daily basis, so maybe the Primordial stuff will go with it, even though Primordial references have continued in the 5E era.
Friendly reminder that they declared all editions before 5e as non-canon, not only 4e. Whatever stuff from 3e, 2e and even the OGB can be torched if they decide it doesn't fit the idea they currently have about what the Realms should be. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2024 : 20:36:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
The gods hanging around for 4 billion years - without anyone worshipping them but they don't "starve" to death from a lack of worship in the meantime - is pretty implausible.
I would just like to point out that "death from lack of worship" was apparently a new rule set by Ao after the ToT, to make deities actually care for and engage with their flocks and not simply threat them as fodder or giving them for granted. Deities were quite resilient before that, with most of the known-to-be-perished gods being killed/subsumed by another god.
Nope, death for lack of worship was always the case even before Ao "created" that law. Ed Greenwood said once that Ao "creating" that law was an inside joke reference to Ao actually knowing nothing about how the Realms worked.
https://x.com/TheEdVerse/status/1530630214820175878?s=20
So the Time of Troubles accomplished nothing. Ao is useless |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 00:15:26
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I think D&D and Forgotten Realms are very close to achieving "broken canon" status, where a fictional world's backstory has been so messed around with by retcons that it's on the verge of no longer being tenable, not helped by contradictory statements on canon by different people in the know (see also Ed's reported legal agreement with WotC, which he believes means that anything he says on the Realms is canon and confirmed by contract, and he used that to directly challenge Crawford's statement that all pre-5E stuff is non-canon and Crawford did not respond).
It's getting to the point where maybe the same view should be taken as towards Doctor Who's canon: everything that has ever been published or officially released is canon, and the contradictions should be taken on board as either evidence of misreporting, someone lying or even someone mucking around with the timeline (not unprecedented in the Forgotten Realms!). |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 04:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
I think D&D and Forgotten Realms are very close to achieving "broken canon" status, where a fictional world's backstory has been so messed around with by retcons that it's on the verge of no longer being tenable, not helped by contradictory statements on canon by different people in the know (see also Ed's reported legal agreement with WotC, which he believes means that anything he says on the Realms is canon and confirmed by contract, and he used that to directly challenge Crawford's statement that all pre-5E stuff is non-canon and Crawford did not respond).
It's getting to the point where maybe the same view should be taken as towards Doctor Who's canon: everything that has ever been published or officially released is canon, and the contradictions should be taken on board as either evidence of misreporting, someone lying or even someone mucking around with the timeline (not unprecedented in the Forgotten Realms!).
That’s the game I’ve always run. “It’s all canon” is the shockingly simple fix to Crawford’s diametric opposite that 5e has adopted. It’s not easy to do, untangling all the knots and snags, but imo worth it in the end. Even with this mess, we all love it for a reason and parts shouldn’t just be thrown out. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 05:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Ao is useless
Always has been (insert astronauts meme here). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 13:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
The gods hanging around for 4 billion years - without anyone worshipping them but they don't "starve" to death from a lack of worship in the meantime - is pretty implausible.
I would just like to point out that "death from lack of worship" was apparently a new rule set by Ao after the ToT, to make deities actually care for and engage with their flocks and not simply threat them as fodder or giving them for granted. Deities were quite resilient before that, with most of the known-to-be-perished gods being killed/subsumed by another god.
Nope, death for lack of worship was always the case even before Ao "created" that law. Ed Greenwood said once that Ao "creating" that law was an inside joke reference to Ao actually knowing nothing about how the Realms worked.
https://x.com/TheEdVerse/status/1530630214820175878?s=20
Ah gotcha, I didn't remember that lore snippet, thanks for reminding me.
I would still put the original goddesses (Selune and Shar) and their first offsprings (Chauntea and Mystril) higher up in the food chain than run-of-the-mill deities that came after. But it's probably a matter of personal taste.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Ao is useless
Always has been (insert astronauts meme here).
LOL, well played!
Anyway, back to the original "what was there before" I'm not sure I would go for a watery-planet age.
I'm thinking more an "aboleths in the waters/underdark and spellweavers/thri-kreen on land" time. With humans as random fodder everywhere (already multiplying a lot, mating with everything that roughly fits, being used as slaves and food and occasionally spilling out of forests or wherever, orc-horde style) and a smattering of wild/wood elves in the forests is what I would go for Toril's ancient past. And a lot of beasts, big animals, random monsters. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 13:43:27
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The thing is, if we go by the Grand History of the Realms, humans shouldn't exist at the time. The ancestors of humans were still ape-like humanoids (australopithecus? homo erectus? ergaster?) by the time of the sarrukh empires, so it would make no sense having full humans before that time. And elves first came to Toril after the Days of Thunder. Whatever existed in the time of the -36k DR or before, it was pretty different to what we currently know.
*this also opens a new topic, though unrelated to the one at hand. And is that if humans were ape-like by the time of the sarrukh, it seems that they also "suffered" a process of rapid evolution like the dragons, to get to their current homo-sapiens status. Unless the humans of the Realms aren't homo-sapiens — though, they are still evolved apes, canonically... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Jan 2024 14:32:18 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 14:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
The gods hanging around for 4 billion years - without anyone worshipping them but they don't "starve" to death from a lack of worship in the meantime - is pretty implausible.
I would just like to point out that "death from lack of worship" was apparently a new rule set by Ao after the ToT, to make deities actually care for and engage with their flocks and not simply threat them as fodder or giving them for granted. Deities were quite resilient before that, with most of the known-to-be-perished gods being killed/subsumed by another god.
Also the first(?) goddesses of the human pantheon that we know about (first generation Selune and Shar, and second generation Chauntea and Mystryl) are more akin to cosmic forces/primordials than 4E deities,so I bet they could sit around alone/with each other (which is basically the backstory of Selune and Shar) for quite some time without problems.
Actually, Shar misses the time it was only her and her sister so badly she wants to destroy everything to get back then ...
Retcons abound though, with later things having gods die due to lack of worship prior to the ToT (but then again... its the "sages that know" that report this information... and we all know that those guys are idiots).
My PERSONAL thoughts on this matter... take it as you will... gods didn't DIE due to lack of worship necessarily... but they damn sure became inanimate. Starved and unable to act, and maybe even turned into vestiges and trapped elsewhere, but not DEAD. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 15:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The thing is, if we go by the Grand History of the Realms, humans shouldn't exist at the time. The ancestors of humans were still ape-like humanoids (australopithecus? homo erectus? ergaster?) by the time of the sarrukh empires, so it would make no sense having full humans before that time. And elves first came to Toril after the Days of Thunder. Whatever existed in the time of the -36k DR or before, it was pretty different to what we currently know.
*this also opens a new topic, though unrelated to the one at hand. And is that if humans were ape-like by the time of the sarrukh, it seems that they also "suffered" a process of rapid evolution like the dragons, to get to their current homo-sapiens status. Unless the humans of the Realms aren't homo-sapiens — though, they are still evolved apes, canonically...
OR the humans came from elsewhere and BRED with the existing human like races that were here.... which given human proclivities I'd not rule out.... or the humans that are documented were from one area and there were OTHER humans elsewhere. Not saying I know the truth... just throwing out some possibilities. I mean, we have so many options once you start throwing in planar travel, spelljamming, magical mutations, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 15:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
<snip>
Anyway, back to the original "what was there before" I'm not sure I would go for a watery-planet age.
I'm thinking more an "aboleths in the waters/underdark and spellweavers/thri-kreen on land" time. With humans as random fodder everywhere (already multiplying a lot, mating with everything that roughly fits, being used as slaves and food and occasionally spilling out of forests or wherever, orc-horde style) and a smattering of wild/wood elves in the forests is what I would go for Toril's ancient past. And a lot of beasts, big animals, random monsters.
Yeah, I'm not big on the original story that "the whole world was water". I like there being landmasses... maybe smaller with more under the water. I also am VERY favored of what you just said there of spellweavers/thri-kreen on the land (and not necessarily thri-kreen per se.. but multi armed insect humanoid brutes)... and throwing in that their civilization is failed here due to their attempt in the past. Seethyr and I both have discussed using that in Anchorome, and I like it. Especially since spellweavers are noted for using crystal "technology" of sorts... maybe the Sarrukh and later cultures use of magic (and often using gems to power magic) relates back to them trying to reverse engineer spellweaver knowledge and inadvertently stumbling onto other ways of doing things.
I know I'm probably in a minority here too... but I'm also very favored of there being a world that was more advanced before Toril in the "crystal sphere" or "spelljamming domain" of realmspace .. or whatever 5e calls it now. That planet I like to be Coliar, and I like it to not JUST be lizard men, aarakocra, and dragon.... but rather "sauroids", "bird folk", "strange dragons... including feathered ones", and possibly long ago involving some conflict with Phoenii, dragons, and a different planetary sphere on fire like a sun.
In this concept, the "sauroid" races may have travelled here (including the "Old Ones" ... https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Old_One ) after their world of Coliar got shattered somehow. The "dragons" that the primordials are said to "ride" may have also come from there. Then the later arrival of the Aearee can be of similar origin. I will note here as well "earthmotes" and "earth islands" ... pretty much the same thing.... and both similar to a dwarven spelljammer that flies through space... and they don't necessarily need to be fast.. but they might rain stuff like rocks down on a planet underneath. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 16:20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The thing is, if we go by the Grand History of the Realms, humans shouldn't exist at the time. The ancestors of humans were still ape-like humanoids (australopithecus? homo erectus? ergaster?) by the time of the sarrukh empires, so it would make no sense having full humans before that time. And elves first came to Toril after the Days of Thunder. Whatever existed in the time of the -36k DR or before, it was pretty different to what we currently know.
*this also opens a new topic, though unrelated to the one at hand. And is that if humans were ape-like by the time of the sarrukh, it seems that they also "suffered" a process of rapid evolution like the dragons, to get to their current homo-sapiens status. Unless the humans of the Realms aren't homo-sapiens — though, they are still evolved apes, canonically...
Its quite obvious by the timeline alone that Natural Selection is not the origin of species. It is basically stated that the Sarrukh manipulated the pre-humans magically.
Trying to explain anything scientifically in a D&D world usually fails. Nothing will stand up to that scrutiny. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 16:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
I think D&D and Forgotten Realms are very close to achieving "broken canon" status, where a fictional world's backstory has been so messed around with by retcons that it's on the verge of no longer being tenable, not helped by contradictory statements on canon by different people in the know (see also Ed's reported legal agreement with WotC, which he believes means that anything he says on the Realms is canon and confirmed by contract, and he used that to directly challenge Crawford's statement that all pre-5E stuff is non-canon and Crawford did not respond).
It's getting to the point where maybe the same view should be taken as towards Doctor Who's canon: everything that has ever been published or officially released is canon, and the contradictions should be taken on board as either evidence of misreporting, someone lying or even someone mucking around with the timeline (not unprecedented in the Forgotten Realms!).
It already has. As it is if a concept doesnt have its origin in a source before 4e I don't use it. There are some concepts from 5e realms that I will incorporate if it uses a pre spell plague bit of lore logically and respectfully.
I throw out anything Spellplague derived though. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 17:03:01
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| In my games I imgined Forgotten Realms reflected what happened on Earth, only much more fantastical. After the release of the GHotR I had to make some adjustments. So e.g. the Hadean period would have elementals and primordials (older than that would be shadevari in the void), followed by primordial slime, possibly creatures like oozes, aboleths, and maybe even sharns. After that I picture aquatic fungi and plants, batrachi (parallels amphibians in Devon), sarrukh (Jurassic), then aearee. Shadow epochs are times of Shar's attempts to end all life, they are similar to Earth's extinction events. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
191 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 20:34:16
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My take on it is that Earth is the ultimate human homeworld for all humans in the D&D multiverse. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense for some humans to come from Earth (the Mulan) and others not; we'd have to imagine parallel evolution and other things that starts to generate headaches real quick, in a Battlestar Galactica finale "we didn't think this through properly" kind of way.
With that in mind, I imagine proto-humans were brought to Toril very early on by the Creator Races possibly for the sheer hell of it, and then other "proper" humans, probably from our Stone Age, came to Toril a bit later to settle in Katashaka (and their descendants later settled Keltormir), and other humans from Earth were enslaved by Calim and brought to Toril when he arrived, then the Imaskari brought a bunch more. That would also explain the relatively low population numbers of humans until after Calim and then the Imaskari brought a whole ton over. One of the benefits of that is that we know bringing things over from Earth (a completely different multiverse, let alone universe) often involves time displacement, so you could have hominids from a million years ago and modern humans from just 30,000 years ago co-existing. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2024 : 20:48:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Werthead
My take on it is that Earth is the ultimate human homeworld for all humans in the D&D multiverse. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense for some humans to come from Earth (the Mulan) and others not; we'd have to imagine parallel evolution and other things that starts to generate headaches real quick, in a Battlestar Galactica finale "we didn't think this through properly" kind of way.
With that in mind, I imagine proto-humans were brought to Toril very early on by the Creator Races possibly for the sheer hell of it, and then other "proper" humans, probably from our Stone Age, came to Toril a bit later to settle in Katashaka (and their descendants later settled Keltormir), and other humans from Earth were enslaved by Calim and brought to Toril when he arrived, then the Imaskari brought a bunch more. That would also explain the relatively low population numbers of humans until after Calim and then the Imaskari brought a whole ton over. One of the benefits of that is that we know bringing things over from Earth (a completely different multiverse, let alone universe) often involves time displacement, so you could have hominids from a million years ago and modern humans from just 30,000 years ago co-existing.
So, you can accept that the humans that were brought to serve the Imaskari came from Earth, that their gods followed them, that the Egyptian gods are real... and thus their mythology might be real in that "they created humans from tears of Happiness"... but you can't accept that those multiplanar godly entities might not have created similar beings on other worlds? Or that other gods might not have created similar beings using the same form of magic?
When it comes to magic and gods... I can accept a LOT of stories. I think that's what I find untenable... that someone believes that our science must be true, while still wanting to allow for magic to also be true. I would even accept that OUR world isn't without magic... its just most of us don't know how to use it because we've just lost the ability. After all... supposedly portals work...
I'll even throw in some other options.... The Masque of the Red Death campaign features the concept that an Egyptian Pharaoh attempted a ritual that called the Red Death to the world. The Red Death then started corrupting or killing all practictioners of magic, to the point that most in the world don't know that magic is real. One could have it that the Imaskari came to THIS world to steal their slaves after its arrival, but before it had locked down this "demiplane". Thus, they could say that they found a world without magic, even as they used magic to get there and force people into slavery. In fact, they may have brought their own magic "sources" so that they didn't draw upon the corrupted magic of gothic earth. Also, the act of the Egyptian Pharaoh's ritual that entrapped the red death in their world... it may have also entrapped the gods, which may have been why it took them so long to get to Toril. The Imaskari's god barrier that they created may somehow be TIED to what makes travel out of Gothic Earth next to Impossible, which may even mean that the Red Death invading the world is somehow tied to them. Now, would I do this particular storyline? Nah. But it's an idea. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Jan 2024 22:00:49 |
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Blue Age/Shadow Epoch and Before
