Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 Laeral, Dove, and Storm go time-traveling...
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2023 :  20:38:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I just randomly remembered this, today, and it took some time to find even this reference. I believe there was another, but I can't readily lay hands on it...

Short version, we have some evidence that Laeral, Dove, and Storm were in Myth Drannor for a time, whilst it was thriving, despite being born 100 years after it fell.

Here's a quote from Krash that sums it all up:

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

This one is an interesting one and involves that most fun thing of all "time travel". There has always been the anomaly of the spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" being found in the spell book known as the Workbook. That spellbook is attributed to Mentor of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. Of course, Myth Drannor fell before the Seven Sisters were even born.

So what that tells us is that somehow Laeral, Dove and Storm travelled back in time to the City of Song and spent time in Myth Drannor when in their adolescence/childhoods (and perhaps Alustriel - Sylune, the Simbul and Qilue are unlikely to have been so sent given their histories).

In my view, Laeral using either a time portal or the spell set out in the Arcane Age accessories went to Myth Drannor early on in her magical life to grow in magic and learn from the Seven Wizards. That's how her spell appears in the Workbook. I'm sure Elminster sent her and the Srinshee looked after her.

The issue of Dove and Storm is a little different as Dragon #124 makes it clear that they were infants when they were taken from Myth Drannor to the Moonshaes. So why were they sent to Myth Drannor? The Seven Sisters accessory tells us (at p.8) that Elminster was looking after (conveniently) Laeral, Dove and Storm after the death of their mother and abandonment by Dornal Silverhand. Clearly "something" must have occurred such that he could not look after Dove and Storm for a period of time and so he elected to send them back in time to the City of Song (or perhaps Mystra decreed it "necessary"). From Myth Drannor the two took the flying ship to the Moonshaes.

The write up of the Workbook states that Flamsterd purchased the spellbook from a band of adventurers. I would hazard that they were Harpers (the first, first group of such worthies) and took the children with them. It's no coincidence that both Dove and Storm have been some of the staunchest Harpers/Harper allies in the modern Realms. They likely took the Workbook with them and gave it to Flamsterd (who I suspect is far older than the sources allude to) who looked after the girls until it was time for them to return to their present time (i.e. after a calendar year had passed).

Am planning on passing this by Ed to see what he has to say, so stay tuned.

-- George Krashos



My question is: was there any other information on this? I'm asking here before taking the question to Ed, because I prefer not to take too much of his time.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Athreeren
Learned Scribe

136 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2023 :  23:14:14  Show Profile Send Athreeren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I just randomly remembered this, today, and it took some time to find even this reference. I believe there was another, but I can't readily lay hands on it...

Short version, we have some evidence that Laeral, Dove, and Storm were in Myth Drannor for a time, whilst it was thriving, despite being born 100 years after it fell.

Here's a quote from Krash that sums it all up:

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

This one is an interesting one and involves that most fun thing of all "time travel". There has always been the anomaly of the spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" being found in the spell book known as the Workbook. That spellbook is attributed to Mentor of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. Of course, Myth Drannor fell before the Seven Sisters were even born.

So what that tells us is that somehow Laeral, Dove and Storm travelled back in time to the City of Song and spent time in Myth Drannor when in their adolescence/childhoods (and perhaps Alustriel - Sylune, the Simbul and Qilue are unlikely to have been so sent given their histories).

In my view, Laeral using either a time portal or the spell set out in the Arcane Age accessories went to Myth Drannor early on in her magical life to grow in magic and learn from the Seven Wizards. That's how her spell appears in the Workbook. I'm sure Elminster sent her and the Srinshee looked after her.

The issue of Dove and Storm is a little different as Dragon #124 makes it clear that they were infants when they were taken from Myth Drannor to the Moonshaes. So why were they sent to Myth Drannor? The Seven Sisters accessory tells us (at p.8) that Elminster was looking after (conveniently) Laeral, Dove and Storm after the death of their mother and abandonment by Dornal Silverhand. Clearly "something" must have occurred such that he could not look after Dove and Storm for a period of time and so he elected to send them back in time to the City of Song (or perhaps Mystra decreed it "necessary"). From Myth Drannor the two took the flying ship to the Moonshaes.

The write up of the Workbook states that Flamsterd purchased the spellbook from a band of adventurers. I would hazard that they were Harpers (the first, first group of such worthies) and took the children with them. It's no coincidence that both Dove and Storm have been some of the staunchest Harpers/Harper allies in the modern Realms. They likely took the Workbook with them and gave it to Flamsterd (who I suspect is far older than the sources allude to) who looked after the girls until it was time for them to return to their present time (i.e. after a calendar year had passed).

Am planning on passing this by Ed to see what he has to say, so stay tuned.

-- George Krashos



My question is: was there any other information on this? I'm asking here before taking the question to Ed, because I prefer not to take too much of his time.



Are we sure this is the simplest explanation? Couldn't it have been a different Laeral, a spell that is extremely similar to Laeral's Dancing Dweomer or that later became so strongly associated to Laeral that it took her name, or somebody getting the spell from a premonition, or even more simply, the proof that the book is not what we thought?
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2023 :  01:14:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Laeral herself said that she, Dove, and Storm were in Myth Drannor. Dragon 124.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Aug 2023 01:14:53
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Great Reader

2407 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2023 :  14:33:03  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Here's a quote from Krash that sums it all up:

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

This one is an interesting one and involves that most fun thing of all "time travel". There has always been the anomaly of the spell "Laeral's Dancing Dweomer" being found in the spell book known as the Workbook. That spellbook is attributed to Mentor of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. Of course, Myth Drannor fell before the Seven Sisters were even born.

So what that tells us is that somehow Laeral, Dove and Storm travelled back in time to the City of Song and spent time in Myth Drannor when in their adolescence/childhoods


Does not follow.
First of all, "attributed to Mentor" does not equal "most definitely was penned by Mentor Wintercloak personally", and may or may not be located in the same ballpark. If anything, the phrases like that in lore are deliberately evasive.
Let's remember The Legend of Tharnwood and all that. I bookmarked those for some reason, yes.
The simplest and most likely explanation (if not very interesting) is that Flamsterd may be not the greatest expert on Mentor and his works, and his guess wildly missed the target.
If Flamsterd was onto something, however, the book could be written by:
- Mentor himself, after Laeral was born and invented the spell in question. He survived all the way to 1374 DR (Blackstaff)!
- some apprentice-of-an-apprentice-... etc of Mentor, who happens to write spells in a style resembling Mentor's enough to "attribute". It's not like there was an entire library shelf of Wintercloak's works to compare.
- a wizard who added some more modern spells, but early on did learn from materials really penned by Mentor and/or first-hand apprentices thereof. See above.

I would also like, as a part of this merry rampage with Occam's Razor +1, to take a swing at the very root of this question:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The write up of the Workbook states that Flamsterd purchased the spellbook from a band of adventurers.

Which they have found somewhere... By the way. Mystra's minions (specifically including the Chosen) as a part of their job leave spare magical items and writings (sometimes counterfeited to look older than they are) for adventurers to find in the old tombs, ruins, etc that should have been, and were, picked clean centuries ago. Right?
The fun thing is, this immediately gives us a good suspect. I mean, Khelben is a Chosen AND was Mentor Wintercloak's pupil from age 12 (Cormanthyr, p.39) AND definitely could learn Laeral's spells later.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Laeral herself said that she, Dove, and Storm were in Myth Drannor. Dragon 124.

Exactly what did she say?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 09 Aug 2023 16:48:40
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2023 :  18:23:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Laeral states that one skyship of this type carried her sisters - the ranger Dove and the bard Storm Silverhand - and herself from the doomed city of Myth Drannor when they were infants, dropping them on the Moonshae Isles before scudding on westwards over the trackless great sea."

This is from Ed's pen.

As for Ed's write-up of the spellbook in question, it says "Once in the elven city of Myth Drannor there was a school of magic. Its teachers were known as the Seven Wizards, and included the one known only as Mentor. Its founding and objectives are forgotten, for Myth Drannor has long been a ruin, and the Seven Wizards disappeared even before Myth Drannor’s destruction.
Many of the mages whose names are now known all across the Realms were tutored at the Wizards’ school, and it is common knowledge that Mentor caused spells of his pupils’ devising to be collected in a book, once he had tested and approved their dweomercraft."

Ed was asked about this on Twitter, and he said that Eric Boyd and Krash were working on something that would untangle this. And while he didn't confirm the time travel, he also didn't deny it.

We have two different things putting Laeral in Myth Drannor before it fell. Sure, you could play the unreliable info card with the spellbook, but we also have Laeral herself saying she was in Myth Drannor before it fell, and that is from Ed's pen.

(Also, I'll point out that one of these references is from 1983, and the other from 1987. So it wasn't the reclaimed Myth Drannor, and it was before we had any rules on time travel.)

The fact that Krash, who is more informed on these things than you or I, also takes the time travel angle seriously, gives me reason to do the same.

So I posted here and pinged Krash. I may ask Ed eventually, but I'd rather not hit him up with questions if the answers can be found elsewhere.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Great Reader

2407 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2023 :  20:22:08  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

"Laeral states that one skyship of this type carried her sisters - the ranger Dove and the bard Storm Silverhand - and herself from the doomed city of Myth Drannor when they were infants
. . .
This is from Ed's pen.

So, "they were infants" when the city was already "doomed", i.e. the Weeping War did not just start, but began to look hopeless. Things began to deteriorate in Cormanthyr decades before that, but "doomed" would be a bit much. And either way this phrasing implies leaving permanently, rather than infants in question being transported to nice sea shore, and then back.

quote:
As for Ed's write-up of the spellbook in question, it says "Once in the elven city of Myth Drannor
. . .
and the Seven Wizards disappeared even before Myth Drannor�s destruction.
. . .
Many of the mages whose names are now known all across the Realms were tutored at the Wizards� school, and it is common knowledge that Mentor caused spells of his pupils� devising to be collected in a book, once he had tested and approved their dweomercraft."

...and then The Workbook found by some adventurers was identified as that book by Flamsterd, rather than Khelben, Tulrun, or another known pupil of Mentor who could actually recognize it?
Also, even without quoting Yennifer on "common knowledge", existence thereof is an additional reason to produce something similar.

On "disappeared even before Myth Drannor's destruction", timeline in Fall of Myth Drannor offers more details:
quote:
682 Year of the Howling
The Masked and Mentor Wintercloak effectively disband the "Seven Wizards" by leaving Myth Drannor with their last four students, all gnomes. Their departure, when one of Mentor's properties (an old stone tower) abruptly uprooted itself and flew up into the sky, heading north by northwest, was surprisingly open. The Incanistaeum now lies solely in the hands of Sakaala of the Seven Rings.
- Fall of Myth Drannor p.18
The nycaloths did not even escape until 708, and things did not even start to look grim at least until 712.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

We have two different things putting Laeral in Myth Drannor before it fell.

One of which is an explicit statement (while not necessarily true) that she was an infant when she left the city.
And the other is a conjecture based on unreliable evidence that requires her to already learn magic enough to develop at least 3rd level spells before the book was written, and then finish her studies in Incanistaeum before 682 (she is neither a gnome, nor did she leave in a flying stone tower), 26 years before the Weeping War even started.
These two different things seem less than compatible.

quote:
The fact that Krash, who is more informed on these things than you or I, also takes the time travel angle seriously, gives me reason to do the same.

However seriously chronomancy deserves to be taken as such, this still was a big conclusion jump, while trivial versions of the events leading to the same result exist (as demonstrated).
I suspect "Mystran fake" scenario specifically with Khelben, because this could lead to exactly this sort of content naturally, rather than randomly. He would be the Chosen most likely to start with the idea of Incanistaeum workbook's replica, but then have doubts: "And this one spell, huh. It was fine to show off back then... in Cormanthyr, to our teachers and the next bunch of trusted apprentices. But leaving it to random adventurers here and now? That would be a bit too much. On the other hand, the purpose of this exercise is to spread magic lore around. I'll just replace it with some harmless spell and call it a day, then."

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 09 Aug 2023 21:05:49
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36787 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2023 :  01:46:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just found that Ed confirmed that Laeral spent time in Myth Drannor before its fall. He confirmed this back in 2011, in the Ask Ed thread for that year.

So back to my original question: did we ever get any more information on this confirmed by Ed himself bit of time travel?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Aug 2023 02:16:18
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Great Reader

2407 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2023 :  12:20:10  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I just found that Ed confirmed that Laeral spent time in Myth Drannor before its fall. He confirmed this back in 2011, in the Ask Ed thread for that year.

Well, the question remain, "when they were infants" or not only that.
And, of course, according to Grand History timeline, the Seven Sisters were born when - in 760s?
Which fits well enough with the Tharnwood part for Laeral, Storm and Dove (770s and some more).
But since it was long after the fall Myth Drannor, their presence there even as infants requires some "shenanigans" either way.

It's just that "they were infants" still does not mix well with hypothesis that Workbook with Laeral's spell purchased by Flamsterd was the genuine work of Incanistaeum wizards.
Unless they went back and forth a lot. Under their own names. Which cannot be completely ruled out, but would be an entire new level of a silly mess.

quote:
So back to my original question: did we ever get any more information on this confirmed by Ed himself bit of time travel?

I agree that we should at least try to figure out the timeline as much as we can first.
Or at least as many pieces of the chopped up timeline as possible.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 10 Aug 2023 12:25:34
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6657 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2023 :  13:22:36  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi all. I’m not going to join in the discussion because only Ed can provide an answer that will satisfy the fans. The comments so far make it clear that nothing I say on the topic will sway TBeholder and quite rightly. I’m just a fan like anyone else. Enjoy your Realms.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Great Reader

2407 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2023 :  00:09:22  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

because only Ed can provide an answer that will satisfy the fans.
Obviously, but we could at least line up the known pieces on our own first.
quote:
The comments so far make it clear that nothing I say on the topic will sway TBeholder and quite rightly.

Why?
You know a lot more lore, some of which may be relevant and not brought up yet. There's always a chance you could blind-side everyone with something we did not consider.

So far, we have 4 relevant fragments:
1. The Seven Sisters were born in 760s DR, per established and not contradicted timeline.
2. Tharnwood time, with Laeral, Storm and Dove mostly in 770s DR.
3. Laeral, Storm and Dove leave "doomed", but still living Myth Drannor on a skyship, as "infants". Of course, it may turn out that "infants" was a figure of speech and they actually were well in their 30s. If Ed will say so, yes.
4. Laeral's spell in the Workbook, allegedly the same as a book written in Incanistaeum while it was active, i.e. before 682.

However, there may be other pieces.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000