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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2023 : 22:42:13
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Having looked through numerous sources I am asking a question here. “Are the Red Wizards of Thay pawns of the gods?”
To begin, they fled to this region from slavery, discovered a macguffin and used it to make great magic. Unknowing that the meteoroid they found anchored Mystra they put pieces of it (it did explode a little) in the Zulkirs gear to create more power. When the Lady died and dweomerheart exploded, the pieces lost power and Red Wizards scrambled to hide this. Much of this is from the history tales of the red wizards.
Aglarond and Rashemen were gifted counter spells to the Thayans, first to the Witches of Aglarond from Mystra, then to her Chosen Alassra who studied there and taught Aglarond. This has shut Thay in.
If Mystra alone were responsible, fine, but she has allies working there also. It seems the more Thay schemes and invents the more Mystra likes the advancement of Magic. Even the ancient netherese lichens are involved with Szass, the undead ruler. Perhaps this is coaxing more magic from pre Mystra times that has been lost?
The Chosen of Mystra are forbidden by Mystra from entering Thay. Sounds like a secret workplace there that won’t trigger gentle souls if they don’t go! Ideas?
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I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 04:43:59
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It's an interesting idea, but I have to ask, what do gods other than Mystra get out of keeping the Thayans confined that they wouldn't be able to get without helping her?
As for finding more pre-mystra magic, seems like there's better avenues for Mystra to take other than locking up the Red Wizards, such as pushing Aumvor, Ioulamm and other Netherese Liches to actually spread their knowledge amongst people that aren't descendants of the Netherese or pointing the Red Wizards towards Netherese and Imaskari ruins. |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 07:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
It's an interesting idea, but I have to ask, what do gods other than Mystra get out of keeping the Thayans confined that they wouldn't be able to get without helping her?
As for finding more pre-mystra magic, seems like there's better avenues for Mystra to take other than locking up the Red Wizards, such as pushing Aumvor, Ioulamm and other Netherese Liches to actually spread their knowledge amongst people that aren't descendants of the Netherese or pointing the Red Wizards towards Netherese and Imaskari ruins.
I have two possibilities…1- the Thayans are not confined totally, they are forced to struggle and invent. Hence various enterprises across Faerun. 2- Mystra seems to be the magic font,
though Shar should be getting Thay into the shadows
As for Tam…official excerpt here…” You are both vain and impetuous,” the Shadow King replied. “All who have visited me in the past have been destroyed, regardless of their allegiance.”
So Tam has greater designs than Thay?
“That’s because the others who came before me were inept,” said Szass. “True,” replied Larloch. “You have not failed me,” he intoned. “Not yet.”
Another long moment of silence filled the library. Years could have passed for all either of the undead cared. Time was meaningless. Finally, without warning or preamble, Larloch, the Shadow King, revealed the secret past of Netheril. |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
Edited by - Fineva on 14 Feb 2023 09:13:16 |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2023 : 14:01:24
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Adressing your possibilties
1 - Thayan enterprises only seemed to deal in common items and spells that outsiders already know about, with Thay actively hoarding any innovations within its borders, which doesn't appear to play into Mystra's goals at all, even if they were recreating older magics within their borders.
2 - Mystra's a strange one, as far as I remember from my limited reading, organised worship of her seems to not exist in Thay, and Shar isn't in a much better position as she's worshipped by non-wizards mostly although Szass turning Thay into an undead kingdom probably reduced that influence considerably.
Szass's goals from the Spellbound book appear to suggest he doesn't have any real plans for Thay outside of becoming its ruler and wiping out Rashemen as revenge for a past injury, and possibly using Eltab as a weapon or energy source. The meeting between Larloch and Szass results in Szass obtaining the items that he'd later use to take over Thay but they don't appear to hold much utility for any other goals, so I'd take Larloch's statement as merely an acknowledgement that Szass is competent enough to be a potentially useful tool in the future worth allowing to leave after their meeting rather than an indication that Szass has ambitions outside of Thay. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2023 : 04:10:57
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Fineva,
There are a few points I would include here. I very much like the idea of the Thayans being pawns of the gods, and entirely without them realizing it because they (unlike us) don't get to see the full scope of things. If you are interested, I'll discuss some of the concepts I'd been playing with over time
Was Larloch tricking Tam? He gave him a cursed artifact that would make him perform more and more evil acts, and then what does Tam do? He turns from a person dedicated to Thay into a person dedicated to turning Thay into a hell hole filled with undead.
Was the book (the Tome of Fastrin the Delver with this ritual of unmaking that's never been tested) that Tam received from the Zulkir of Transmutation TRULY capable to allowing him to reform the entire world OR was that a powerful lie? After all, we have no prior evidence of this place in the sunset mountains that Fastrin the Delver supposedly came from. The only "real" evidence we have that I can think of of the existence of this place is the ghost paladin "Mirror"... which is a being whose own memories seem to be "problematic". It is almost like his memories are incomplete and possibly implanted.
So, where am I going with that? Well, what if Leira were posing as the "Tome of Fastrin the Delver", and the point of the "ritual of unmaking" was simply to create a dump of power that would help rebirth Mystra. What if the reason "Mirror's" memories are spotty are because he's a ghost whose memories were modified by a goddess (i.e. Leira).
So, where am I going with that? Well, the big story I've liked for the whole "Mystra died in the spellplague and Dweomerheart was destroyed" is that the people who say that were simply WRONG. Dweomerheart broke from Toril and went to Abeir. Mystra didn't die, but she was incredibly weakened. A LOT of other deities didn't die... they went to Abeir. Other divine domains also went to Abeir, such as the ones for the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities. Some few deities were able to be active in both worlds. Others weren't. So, the story of Tyr killing Helm over a lover's dispute... false... Helm was in Abeir. The reason Lathander disappeared... he was in Abeir. Tyr "dying"... he went to Abeir. Why did these gods go to Abeir? Some may have been sent to protect the flocks of Torilian worshippers that they had. Others went because they had seen the future and knew that Mystra would need their help to build a weave on Abeir, and the other gods would need a weave in order to help their followers defend themselves.
So, why do I mention all this about Abeir and the gods? Because remember how Mystra told her chosen not to kill red wizards just after the time of troubles? Then this nasty bit with a civil war started. The residents of Thay started leaving the country and fleeing to remote thayan enclaves. Well, my idea has it that one very new Thayan enclave, which was established just a few years prior to the start of the Thayan civil war was in northeastern Anchorome. It was at a place that wanted fire makers who could make "Calishite Fire"... essentially alchemist's fire... and it was known as "Fort Flame" because the Flaming Fist mercenary company had established a beachhead there. So, somewhat similar to the Irish fleeing to America, a place where land was there for the taking... both Rashemi blooded and mulan blooded Thayans fled to make a new home in a new land. In the years leading up to the spellplague they expanded out from Fort Flame, claiming some small islands off the coast, heading inland to settle in some ancient ruins that others were superstitious of, and even expanded south into the Lopango jungles because it was known as "The Land of Fire". Along the way, they met a northmen like culture known as the metahel, who had similarities to the Rashemi, and the two cultural groups began to comingle.
Then the spellplague happened. The people of Faerun believed that much of the Shaar collapsed and that the cities of Chondath and Chessenta were destroyed. In truth, at least portions of these lands went to Abeir. The people in these lands flee their homes because of the abeiran hordes, but they congregate to the ruined cliffside city of Peleverai. The people that were in Anchorome and Lopango later expand south into Katashaka as well. Basically small "tharchs" begin to grow up, and they keep allied for trade and protection. They develop a modified version of their Zulkirate... with several of the original Zulkirs (longer story there). Their new form of governance recognizes that too much power was in the hands of the Zulkirs of each school, and so each "Tharch" gives more power to their tharchion and each has a local council similar to a Zulkir's council (with Aulkirs filling these roles). From within these aulkirs, a Zulkir is selected for each school to help govern the "United Tharchs of Toril" as the begin to call themselves, but these Zulkirs can only rule on matters that threaten whole or multiple tharchs. Over time, each of these tharchs begins to move in its own direction, and many only cursorily resemble "Thay" after a hundred years. Some tharchs give up the idea of racial purity altogether and build large families with natives. Some hold to the Mulan values. At least one tharch decides that breeding with Rashemi and Metahel is acceptable, but not with other "inferior" races of the surrounding lands.
Others give up on the "faerunian" pantheon and instead embrace gods of the pantheons of the metahel or the peoples of Anchorome, Maztica, Lopango, or Katashaka. Some embrace combining magic with melee, for magic fails but a sword doesn't. Some others turn to the magic of artifice, but not just the ideas of brewing, working smokepowder, and metal working, for they see that the natives have magic of pluma, hishna, and hornsculpture. This object based magic seems to work well in Abeir. Other tharchs have more of a focus on the elements. Some of these tharchs become more noble in character and even begin making alliances with their neighbors, while others grow even more depraved. They also take in some refugees of other areas of Toril that transferred in smaller portions that had also contained Thayan enclaves that were established in the chultan peninsula during the years of the civil war, and some leaders from these communities become leaders in the new United Tharchs of Toril.
In their time on Abeir, the gods subtly guide them to sacrifice to them. In return, the gods, though greatly weakened and having to work through willing hosts to share their bodies (like the lesser avatars of the ToT), protect many settlements from incursions by Abeiran forces. Unlike during the ToT, the gods do not STAY in these bodies much longer than they have to, for fear of awaking the primordials. Initially all clerics are reduced in power and must function using a slightly less stringent version of the 5e rules found in the DM's guild product "priestess: ancient world divine class", which encourages the building of temples, idols, and sacrificing to the gods for power. Many of the gods of magic (which grows to include not just Leira, Velsharoon, and Savras.... but also Deneir, a goddess believed to be the red knight, and even non-faerunian gods like Thoth) use these items of sacrifice as weave anchors. It also makes these spellcasters stronger at home than abroad, so their focus becomes more one of defense of their homes. Over time, some gods gain in power, and they can make traditional avatars. Eventually clerics, paladins, druids, and other divine casters become possible again for some of these gods. After five generations pass in Abeir, few are left that even remember Thay, and even less want to return there. But the tharchs become more fractious, less tolerant of each others views. Then suddenly... they find themselves in a "new" world.. a place called Toril that they had heard of from their great great grandfathers stories handed down to them in their history books. But, this is not the world of their ancestors, and much has changed. For those in the lands of Lopango, Anchorome, and Katashaka.. little has changed in their daily lives. But those who were living in the transferred lands of the shaar find their lives very much altered as their borders completely change.
Thats my idea in a nutshell. Essentially, it comes down to the gods using the transferred Thayans knowledge of magic to end up establishing a weave on Abeir, and this weave helps strengthen the gods. The strengthened gods can then better protect the people who were transferred to Abeir from the tyrants of Abeir, whether directly acting or working through more and more powerful mortal intermediaries. In the end, this helps strengthen Ao's power in Abeir... for some say that when the two worlds split, he had little control over the primordials in the other world... some even believe he split the world to protect himself from them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Feb 2023 04:12:47 |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2023 : 05:04:13
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Fascinating. Using Thay as an unknowing sponsor of diaspora that spread the weave and the Mystra way…! Here’s another point I found recently, watch the gods to see who they help and you get their overall intent…
“ As a mortal, Velsharoon was a renegade Red Wizard of Thay whose chief rival was Szass Tam. He discovered a method laid forth by Talos for a mortal to achieve divinity, but quickly realized that the Storm Lord would simply exploit him until he was destroyed. Velsharoon then shifted his allegiance to Azuth, who, with Mystra’s help, blocked Talos from seeking vengeance. Velsharoon has since secretly renewed his alliance with Talos and has begun flirting with Shar, although he still nominally serves Azuth”
(FR Cormyr wiki) |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
Edited by - Fineva on 15 Feb 2023 05:06:23 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2023 : 09:16:26
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Red Wizards - at least in 1E/2E material - only gave lip service to Mystra, reluctantly, and as little as possible. They preferred to invoke Myrkul, Kossuth, Bane, Velsharoon, Azuth, even archfiends.
Mystra is the goddess of all magic, of course, and she ultimately does have the power to allow or deny access to magic. But most Red Wizards (and thus most of Thay) refused to exalt Mystra. And Mystra evidently still provided plenty of magic to the Red Wizards.
So I think Mystra is not really part of Thay's narrative. The Red Wizards basically ignore her, if anything they recognize her as the goddess of their enemies, so their perspective is on the other gods who provide their magic. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Fineva
Seeker
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2023 : 11:47:59
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Omg you 3 got me started!
Ayrik ; changes from 2022-
“- this love is second only to the love he feels for magic and by association, Mystra herself” (describing Szass Tams love for Thay, Ed Greenwood, Thay the Land of the Red Wizards, 2022) This and the macguffin meteorite “Athora” under Thay is a weave anchor as hinted by earlier work. (“Tyrants in Scarlet”, Greenwood and Krashos)
Thayans don’t care about Mystra but she has every reason to manipulate them!
Slevyas;
Spellplague, what was it? Was it held back by Mystra or caused by her death? The creatures of the Far Realm that occurred (people turned into) were either evidence of the wave from the far realm or stable mutations after too much magic is absorbed? Bad either way.
Now for an illustration of my idea from another thread (3.5-5e)
…”
Dweomerheart had exploded with the death of Mystra. The dragons had acted on their queens orders, knowing only that a disaster would distract the sharpest of scouts. On the ground a gypsy caravan rushed to save the falling Avoral.
Save her for Orcus, they chained her inside, placed a torture device with regeneration on her and drained both pain (3.0-.5 Orcus pain spell, items from book of Vile Darkness) and blood as they innocently drove through Elysium. The disaster covered their escape, then their trip through the beast lands, all the way to the edge of limbo. Here they built a well to store the collected essences. Here also Tenebrous, aka Orcus built his tower of blood, causing its foundation to separate from the chaotic good Valhalla into limbo- an island of the dead.
Kord saw this and sent adventurers. The party rescued Sathia, the sky Duchess, but she was locked in eternal pain. One of the party sacrificed herself to channel the Avoral and Kord sealed it with the Axe of the Dwarven Lords. This made Sathia a resident of Valhalla, for now.
Later the Axe left the channeled one, as artifacts do, and the body disintegrating, she returned to Valhalla. A pair of adventurers helped her steal into the tower and regain her essence. Orcus pursued them to Elysium, but there was met by celestial reflections out of the abyss and Tiamat herself, who had expected to escape the lower planes to the blood tower, guided by Sathias essence. The battle was hideous, Orcus died and a mortal got his wand. Then Elysium acted and shot the evil to other places.
The mortal landed on Faerun, Sathia following, and they encountered the lady with the Black Dragon Mask. Using this, Sathia made a connection and watches the mask to this day. On the plane of Elysium she channels some of its power and is even better at detecting danger. On a more important note, she keeps a wary eye for the queen of dragons” (end quote)
RETCON TIME! Toward Slevyas’ theory.
What of during the adventure for Darlon Ma (also mentioned in the Thay material by Ed) with the celestial (Sathia, the spotter) watching through the eyes of the Fineva/mask in the Netherese lab? The Lab had been created by Chronos himself and she read the knowledge of Chronomancy!
(Flip through a book, Sathia can read it that fast?! )
So What? Mystra had barred that from the weave but unlike the city of Shadow, not the Shadow Weave! With a little help from influential friends there is a chronomancy procedure, Dweomerheart doesn’t die, Abeir is enriched and Sathia doesn’t get kidnapped! She decides to keep Fineva but changes the time line so that instead of Fineva Orogoth there is born Sathia Orogoth , wiping a lot of the sordid history of the factions clean! (As not mentioned in Ed’s above work since it didn’t happen)
Or, using the rune craft of the giants that Fineva had laboured while possessed by the ghost of Ilsenstaad… modified a Black Obelisk for a time trip? (sathia is a penultimate painter and sculptress, eye for details, she might not take long to figure a rune or two)
Remember runes are “true” magic unrelated to weaves. (From Giantcraft) ,
Seeing this Shar cursed and caused the Shadow Weave to also reject Chronomancy!
Still there may be a few Biotite Folios written by Fineva in Candlekeep!
Guess I have to rename myself huh?
-Sathia of Orogoth |
I" am Sathia of Orogoth |
Edited by - Fineva on 16 Feb 2023 10:37:20 |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 04:14:21
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No, at least not any more then the rest of the Realms. Really, at least half of EVERYTHING that happens in the Realms is by the touch of the gods.
Thay is no more special then any other place.....really "Thay" is only special to the people that are Clueless about the Realms: The People that think the Sword Coast is the whole world of Toril, and think Thay is just a city down the river from Baldur's Gate. The kind of people that think the "Red Wizards" are the only bad guys in the whole Realms.
I'm not sure the whole Unapproachable East keeps Thay "in check". Thay hold itself 'in check' a lot. But Thay has a whole cost where they can get away from those countries.
From a god perspective in a world with both good and evil....well, you need evil. You can't do the good world. If you did, you would get something like the people on the ark in the movie Wall-E. Mortals need 'evil', so they know what 'good' is....to say the least. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 15:03:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Red Wizards - at least in 1E/2E material - only gave lip service to Mystra, reluctantly, and as little as possible. They preferred to invoke Myrkul, Kossuth, Bane, Velsharoon, Azuth, even archfiends.
Mystra is the goddess of all magic, of course, and she ultimately does have the power to allow or deny access to magic. But most Red Wizards (and thus most of Thay) refused to exalt Mystra. And Mystra evidently still provided plenty of magic to the Red Wizards.
So I think Mystra is not really part of Thay's narrative. The Red Wizards basically ignore her, if anything they recognize her as the goddess of their enemies, so their perspective is on the other gods who provide their magic.
In my concept for the United Tharchs, this plays into it as well. Mystra is weak in Abeir, and its her assistant gods (Leira, Azuth, Velsharoon... and I added Deneir "god of glyphs, runes, and spellbooks", red knight "the goddess of spell strategy", Thoth, Karsus) that are guiding humanity to build a weave there. Mystra is giving guidance essentially to the lesser gods, and they are guiding the mortal red wizards. So, in this idea, the "red wizards" that go to this other world don't realize that they themselves, via their sacrifice, are rebuilding the weave. As magic becomes more stable, many of them actually begin to revere her directly (which also makes them different from Thayan red wizards).
In my ideas for Leira posing as the Tome of Fastrin the Delver, this again comes down to her tricking Tam into releasing energy which helps "reboot" Mystra... or helps pull her back from Abeir by kicking off the return of lands that went to Abeir. Again a servitor of Mystra helping to restore the mistress of the weave for their own interests. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 15:44:39
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Regarding "the spellplague... what was it question"
It was exactly what happened on Toril... portions of Toril went to Abeir, and portions of Abeir went to Toril. As happened on the prime, so happened with some divine domains. Dweomerheart, Heliopolis, Supreme Throne, Zigguraxus, Leira's Court of Illusion, the Maztican deities divine domain, etc... also shifted to abeir. To note, according to the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun page 164, Toril connects to "several different astrals". We also have portions of the world that don't connect to the "astral" but instead connect to the spirit world (Kara-Tur, etc...), and I believe that's common to other areas of Toril as well. So, lands shifting screwed with these astrals as well, and thereby divine domains as well. Thus all the deities that "died and came back"... they just went to Abeir and came back. Some of them died in Abeir. Partially hidden from mortals was an immortal war going on... and why? Maybe because Ao wanted to extend power in Abeir.
To note, in all this, I believe the ToT was a lead in into this. Leira faked her death and moved her domain ahead of time in such a way that she could interact in both worlds clandestinely. She knew this because Savras knew it. Mystra knew it and placed Midnight in her place to serve as a sacrificial lamb. Mystra also knew she'd need the aid of the god of psionics in Abeir, and she started "waking up" Auppenser. Other psionic deities like deep duerra and Laduguer also supposedly "died" leading into this, and perhaps they to were "moving their divine domains ahead of time". Some deities may have been doing things on the command of Ao, without knowing the movements of OTHER deities also being commanded by Ao.
I can't say that I have any overarching massive storyline that connects all the gods, etc... but I don't really feel we need it to THAT level of detail. I like the idea of the gods building the new weave by having mortals find and sacrifice in various ways various divine artifacts specific to some gods. These then empower the deities involved while in Abeir. The mortals just don't really get the full scope of what they're doing and why they're doing it. Some begin connecting dots. Others quite simply don't and move on. Then some beings start experimenting with "worldfire", which draws power from Toril over to Abeir, including a certain Zulkir created by Ed in the article talking about worldfire.
Now, the question that might then come about would be "Why would the death of Midnight cause dweomerheart and many Torilian lands to shift to another world". Perhaps the best answer to that lies in some kind of "contingency" that may have been setup by the goddess of magic (Mystra I) to move her divine domain should the ruler of the domain ever fall under the assault of attackers. Kind of like a safe room to cut off entrances... and dweomerheart had links to many different astrals via portals... and boom. I am of course open to other interpretations of this, but at this time, that's the first thing that pops in my noggin. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Feb 2023 18:10:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2023 : 19:39:34
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My personal spin is that the whole thing about Abeir being twinned off is just PR. I think it makes more sense if Abeir was some separate world, maybe a demiplane, and it was facing some disaster -- so the primordials tried to invade Toril, bringing parts of their world with them, where it would be safe from whatever the disaster was.
It wasn't a stable merger, though, so it was eventually reversed by unknown Torilian actions. |
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Red Wizards
