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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1164 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Dec 2022 : 23:58:46
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I was doing a little digging to homebrew a werepuma type creature and came across the wiki on the various lycanthropes of the Realms. One that immediately popped into my sight was the fact that Kelemvor had at one time been a werepanther, which I then recalled from the Avatar Trilogy of novels.
I’m surprised that his lycanthropy became such an unimportant part of his existence post the curing of his curse. As a god, you think he’d have some kind of enmity or perhaps even admiration for Malar.
It also had me thinking about the origins of his lycanthropy. Panthers are found mostly in southeastern Asia. Would similar areas of the Realms be the source of werepanther lycanthropy? Is Kelemvor’s family from somewhere like Langdarma?
On another note, I came across werepegasi, werewyverns and other interesting creatures. Fascinating read..
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Edited by - Seethyr on 19 Dec 2022 23:59:58
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2022 : 01:53:27
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He wasn't a lycanthrope, at least not by the D&D definition. His family was under a curse that caused them to turn into a panther if not rewarded for their actions.
There was no transmission of the curse, except through offspring, no hybrid form, and no issues with the moon or with materials such as silver.
I've always kind of had an issue with that curse. The curse was laid for being too much of a mercenary, but then it promptly reversed itself and forced the family to act in that same mercenary manner. It was the last spell of a dying spellslinger -- a spell that had a huge effect on multiple people, lasting for generations... Which means the caster either had cast dreadful, centuries-long curse memorized, or she had a heck of a lot of magical oomph left that could have been spent on something more productive, like not dying. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Dec 2022 01:59:48 |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2022 : 02:40:34
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I don't have too much doubt that Kelemvor wanted to forget the curse and everything about it forever....
Kel's curse, the Lyonsbane Curse, was a family curse. The curse effect his family for five generations. The sorceresses that cursed his family member in the past picked the werepanther'. So...she was likely from a place in the Realms that had panthers.
Of course "panther" is a bit vague too as they are really jaguars, leopards and cougars. But even in the Realms Black Panthers lived in tropical forests....and tropical forests cover plenty of the Realms. So she might have been from Chult, Mhair, Samarlogh, Kara-Tur or Maztica...and lots of other places. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2022 : 04:09:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It was the last spell of a dying spellslinger -- a spell that had a huge effect on multiple people, lasting for generations... Which means the caster either had cast dreadful, centuries-long curse memorized, or she had a heck of a lot of magical oomph left that could have been spent on something more productive, like not dying.
True, but dying curses are an age-old literary trope. They defy the laws of physics and ordinary magic, being powered by raw narrativium. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6365 Posts |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1164 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2022 : 02:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
The process I've seen realms designers use is that curses can be made without spells.
My interpretation is that it is like a ritual or epic magic, and so requires only the skill of the caster, not some prememorised magic.
The crux is that the caster sacrifices themselves in the process and that lends a lot of power to the casting so some tremendously complex curses can be manifest in an instant rather than the days it might make to normally cast such a ritual, and this is possible through sacrifice.
It is worth noting that non casters can manifest curses in this manner, although this might involve a third party benefitting from the sacrifice to manifest the curse for it's own ends.
I don’t entirely hate that. Sometimes I feel like the game’s carefully balanced structure actually inhibits good storytelling and an author’s ability to just throw it out the door for the sake of a good (arguably) story is worth the slight to “following the rules.” I know people aren’t much loving the RAS’ recent novels but we just saw this happen in a big way not too long ago with Baenre’s birth ritual. Maybe rules should follow the storytelling instead of the other way around. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2022 : 06:27:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always kind of had an issue with that curse. The curse was laid for being too much of a mercenary, but then it promptly reversed itself and forced the family to act in that same mercenary manner. It was the last spell of a dying spellslinger -- a spell that had a huge effect on multiple people, lasting for generations... Which means the caster either had cast dreadful, centuries-long curse memorized, or she had a heck of a lot of magical oomph left that could have been spent on something more productive, like not dying.
It could be a contingency spell. Set to inflict the curse on the caster's killer. Or perhaps activated with a (last dying breath) command word. Not designed to save the caster's life ... instead designed to inflict suffering, vengeance, justice, and retribution onto one who has wronged (or murdered) the caster.
It might be worth noting that 1E-/2E-era lycanthropy was a curse. It was not another cool extra power card in the character's pocket that it often became in later editions, it was an affliction which caused suffering and which was passed through the blood of generations.
Kelemvor divesting himself of the lycanthropy/curse suggests some sort of favour from Selune. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 Dec 2022 06:32:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2022 : 11:53:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always kind of had an issue with that curse. The curse was laid for being too much of a mercenary, but then it promptly reversed itself and forced the family to act in that same mercenary manner. It was the last spell of a dying spellslinger -- a spell that had a huge effect on multiple people, lasting for generations... Which means the caster either had cast dreadful, centuries-long curse memorized, or she had a heck of a lot of magical oomph left that could have been spent on something more productive, like not dying.
It could be a contingency spell. Set to inflict the curse on the caster's killer. Or perhaps activated with a (last dying breath) command word. Not designed to save the caster's life ... instead designed to inflict suffering, vengeance, justice, and retribution onto one who has wronged (or murdered) the caster.
It might be worth noting that 1E-/2E-era lycanthropy was a curse. It was not another cool extra power card in the character's pocket that it often became in later editions, it was an affliction which caused suffering and which was passed through the blood of generations.
Kelemvor divesting himself of the lycanthropy/curse suggests some sort of favour from Selune.
My issue isn't so much the curse, as it is the fact that no matter how it happened, the sorceress in question had some serious magical mojo on hand to do it -- and rather than save herself (thus negating the need for the curse), she chose to allow herself to die and to screw someone else over in the process.
Had the curse come from any other source -- an artifact, a pissed off lich, some fell power being banished back to the Lower Planes -- it would have been more plausible than "I'm dying so I'm REALLY gonna inconvenience you!"
And Selûne wasn't involved in Kelemvor getting rid of the curse. It was during the Time of Troubles, and he made a deal with Bane. Bane basically ripped the panther out of him. |
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Scots Dragon
Seeker
United Kingdom
89 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2022 : 20:43:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My issue isn't so much the curse, as it is the fact that no matter how it happened, the sorceress in question had some serious magical mojo on hand to do it -- and rather than save herself (thus negating the need for the curse), she chose to allow herself to die and to screw someone else over in the process.
The concept of a 'dying curse' is actually pretty long running in fantasy and folklore. It's the sort of thing that would go outside the rules, and be fuelled largely by the already-dying 'caster', so to speak. You can justify it a number of ways; the sorceress' curse was granted by a deity (Hoar or Malar are good options), or it was allowed by whatever magic she had remaining.
Notably such a thing couldn't be used to heal oneself or restore oneself, because of its nature as a dying curse. It's basically an affliction upon the one who slew you and only really functions with the last gasp.
It's also entirely possible that the curse worked more indirectly; she cursed the family with a more generic 'you and your descendants will suffer!', and then not long afterwards there was an infectious attack by a lycanthrope that was assumed to be brought on by that. It may or may not have been misinterpreted superstition as a result.
The vector for dying curses kinda works like that.
One of the most famous dying curses is from Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet;
Help me into some house, Benvolio,
Or I shall faint. A plague a' both your houses!
They have made worms' meat of me, I have it,
And soundly too. Your houses!
Given that Mercutio's death drives Romeo to murder Tybalt, and then Tybalt's death and the reaction to it causes the deaths of Paris, Romeo, and Juliet thereafter, it's arguable that it worked.
We also see similar in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar with, 'Et tu, Brute.' One interpretation is of course; 'You betrayed me?'
But another is that it is a dying curse; 'You're next.' And indeed, Brutus actually is the next to die of betrayal. |
Edited by - Scots Dragon on 21 Dec 2022 20:50:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2022 : 22:28:22
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Yeah, I know it's a well-established trope, but that doesn't mean it's a good fit for a D&D setting. There were better ways to establish the curse, especially since it wound up changing to the exact opposite, with the next generation, and forcing the very behavior it was originally meant to punish.
It would have been easier and made more sense if the curse had come from another source and didn't pull a 180 with the next generation.
(And how would you even raise a child with a curse that forced you to get a reward for your actions? The curse didn't seem to consider satisfaction from a job well done or gratitude from a loved one to be a reward, and as a parent, I can say with a great deal of certainty that there's no material rewards in being a parent!) |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2022 : 01:36:20
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| Not everything that turns up in a novel will be adequately represented by game rules. Furthermore, as of 5e - long after WOTC abandoned "Epic Level" type play - we probably can't expect a mechanic to represent a generational curse. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2022 : 02:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Not everything that turns up in a novel will be adequately represented by game rules. Furthermore, as of 5e - long after WOTC abandoned "Epic Level" type play - we probably can't expect a mechanic to represent a generational curse.
It's not just a game rule thing. The story of the curse is poorly thought out. A death curse that changes to the exact opposite thing after one generation and then never changes again over subsequent generations just doesn't make sense. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2022 : 07:32:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Not everything that turns up in a novel will be adequately represented by game rules. Furthermore, as of 5e - long after WOTC abandoned "Epic Level" type play - we probably can't expect a mechanic to represent a generational curse.
It's not just a game rule thing. The story of the curse is poorly thought out. A death curse that changes to the exact opposite thing after one generation and then never changes again over subsequent generations just doesn't make sense.
Presently, no concrete example I can point to comes to mind, but there have been occasional references over the years in various D&D supplements that demonstrate how ordinarily permanent enchantments can change over long periods of time. Granted, those concerned objects/artifacts/areas and such a shift likely did not result in a blatantly opposite effect, but it's not a stretch to apply the same "logic" to curses. Is a possibly tenuous justification better than none? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2022 : 21:26:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Presently, no concrete example I can point to comes to mind, but there have been occasional references over the years in various D&D supplements that demonstrate how ordinarily permanent enchantments can change over long periods of time.
One example that comes to mind is the enchantment over Arilyn's sword, but I'm sure there are better examples. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6365 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11882 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2022 : 13:35:59
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| I've found it funny that Nergal, the king of the kingdom of death, was portrayed as a lion (most pictures I've see shows it as a black lion).... and I wonder at my theories that perhaps Midnight, Kelemvor, and Cyric weren't created beings (like Alias) with implanted memories meant to inherit the powers of gods and placed on their paths by Ao himself or other deific beings.... and what if any were the involvements between the various pantheons of the world. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2022 : 21:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I've found it funny that Nergal, the king of the kingdom of death, was portrayed as a lion (most pictures I've see shows it as a black lion).... and I wonder at my theories that perhaps Midnight, Kelemvor, and Cyric weren't created beings (like Alias) with implanted memories meant to inherit the powers of gods and placed on their paths by Ao himself or other deific beings.... and what if any were the involvements between the various pantheons of the world.
I suspect Mystra 1.0 was a descendant of Mystryl.
Ed didn't exactly confirm this, but it wasn't denied, either:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just had a thought... When Mystryl died, she dumped her power into a human girl.
Mystra 1.0 dumped a lot of her power into a human girl, too, before Midnight came along and got the rest of that power.
We also know that Mystra 1.0 possessed a mortal woman and had a slew of daughters with her, daughters that contained part of Mystra's essence...
What if Mystryl did the same thing? It's possible that the nameless girl who became Mystra was either a daughter of or a descendant of Mystryl. For that matter, a lot of magical anamolies could be explained that way -- maybe all of the non-Seven Chosen are descendants of Mystryl. Maybe some other odd cases, like wild talents, incantatrices, and even spellfire wielders are all descendants of Mystryl.
I might be wrong, but it's an interesting idea, thinks I.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In some of my 'deep secrets' musings in this thread and others, I have had some indication by 'persons in the know' (can't remember the specifics... probably Ed via THO) that the artifact that is Mystra requires some sort of mortal connection. Exactly why and and how deep that connection must be has never been discussed, because it falls into that 'deep secrets' category. I am not sure if it has anything to do with her initial creation, or some rule imposed upon her later by Ao (or even something else).
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Markustay, you recall correctly - - and Wooly, you tread into dangerous ground, you wise and insightful hamster, you! 
(Which is a not so subtle way of saying you're on to something, both of you.)
THO
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1546 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2022 : 12:56:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I've found it funny that Nergal, the king of the kingdom of death, was portrayed as a lion (most pictures I've see shows it as a black lion).... and I wonder at my theories that perhaps Midnight, Kelemvor, and Cyric weren't created beings (like Alias) with implanted memories meant to inherit the powers of gods and placed on their paths by Ao himself or other deific beings.... and what if any were the involvements between the various pantheons of the world.
That's because Nergal isn't just a death god. Nergal in real life was the god of inflicted death, a judge, a peacemaker and a king in his own right. The nuance is lost in D&D, where he's just another death god instead of being a respected member of his pantheon whose court includes Gilgamesh. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2022 : 17:39:00
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I've found it funny that Nergal, the king of the kingdom of death, was portrayed as a lion (most pictures I've see shows it as a black lion).... and I wonder at my theories that perhaps Midnight, Kelemvor, and Cyric weren't created beings (like Alias) with implanted memories meant to inherit the powers of gods and placed on their paths by Ao himself or other deific beings.... and what if any were the involvements between the various pantheons of the world.
That's because Nergal isn't just a death god. Nergal in real life was the god of inflicted death, a judge, a peacemaker and a king in his own right. The nuance is lost in D&D, where he's just another death god instead of being a respected member of his pantheon whose court includes Gilgamesh.
Yeah, some of what D&D does to real-world mythology is just bizarre. A lot of evil powers in D&D were far more nuanced and not the "Ha ha, I am so evil!" types that D&D makes them.
And then there's cases like the D&D gorgon, which has absolutely nothing to do with with the mythological gorgons. |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2022 : 14:28:21
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The D&D gorgon's a weird case of kinda being accurate in that the original inspiration for it does draw some links between them, in that the mythological gorgons were african amazons with a certain hairstyle that looked like snakes when their hair stood on end and the bull gorgon which is apparently from africa has a similar hairstyle when it's frightened into using a poisonous breath or its eyes to send people into convulsive fits.
On page 206-207 of The history of four-footed beasts and serpents by Edward Topsell if you're interested in reading about it.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2022 : 17:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
The D&D gorgon's a weird case of kinda being accurate in that the original inspiration for it does draw some links between them, in that the mythological gorgons were african amazons with a certain hairstyle that looked like snakes when their hair stood on end and the bull gorgon which is apparently from africa has a similar hairstyle when it's frightened into using a poisonous breath or its eyes to send people into convulsive fits.
On page 206-207 of The history of four-footed beasts and serpents by Edward Topsell if you're interested in reading about it.
Huh, never knew about those bull gorgons. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2022 : 17:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
The D&D gorgon's a weird case of kinda being accurate in that the original inspiration for it does draw some links between them, in that the mythological gorgons were african amazons with a certain hairstyle that looked like snakes when their hair stood on end and the bull gorgon which is apparently from africa has a similar hairstyle when it's frightened into using a poisonous breath or its eyes to send people into convulsive fits.
On page 206-207 of The history of four-footed beasts and serpents by Edward Topsell if you're interested in reading about it.
Huh, never knew about those bull gorgons. |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2022 : 19:17:37
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| Me neither until someone on youtube told me about them a few months ago, might have to track down a physical copy of the book to see if there's any other interesting ideas in there. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11882 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2022 : 20:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I've found it funny that Nergal, the king of the kingdom of death, was portrayed as a lion (most pictures I've see shows it as a black lion).... and I wonder at my theories that perhaps Midnight, Kelemvor, and Cyric weren't created beings (like Alias) with implanted memories meant to inherit the powers of gods and placed on their paths by Ao himself or other deific beings.... and what if any were the involvements between the various pantheons of the world.
That's because Nergal isn't just a death god. Nergal in real life was the god of inflicted death, a judge, a peacemaker and a king in his own right. The nuance is lost in D&D, where he's just another death god instead of being a respected member of his pantheon whose court includes Gilgamesh.
Yeah, almost like a god who was a god of tyranny, death, and King of the Dead.... it makes me want to spin that Kelemvor was a created being to serve as a method for Jergal to regain his power.... and possibly from the body of Nergal... and thus his having a cat like form.
I also note that when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were supposedly seeking Jergal's power.... a black panther showed up... some say it was Malar... was that a misunderstanding? Was that Nergal... an aspect of Jergal? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Dec 2022 20:57:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2022 : 03:19:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I also note that when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were supposedly seeking Jergal's power.... a black panther showed up... some say it was Malar... was that a misunderstanding? Was that Nergal... an aspect of Jergal?
I'm not familiar with this black panther reference...
And why would Jergal have an aspect of himself show up where he already was? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11882 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2022 : 16:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I also note that when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were supposedly seeking Jergal's power.... a black panther showed up... some say it was Malar... was that a misunderstanding? Was that Nergal... an aspect of Jergal?
I'm not familiar with this black panther reference...
And why would Jergal have an aspect of himself show up where he already was?
The black cat that shows up is "Malar"... I'm throwing out here that many of the myths we see in products say things based on a given groups interpretations. For instance, the story of At'ar the yellow goddess says that she is sleeping with N'asr, the god of the dead, and says that this is Cyric... but Cyric just appeared on the stage recently and so the "sages" say it "must have been Myrkul". So, the Skull bowling thing said that "he took the heads of his 3 most powerful liches and had the dark three roll them" and then at that exact moment "Malar" shows up... Malar's form is most often that of a big black cat... and he goes off and chases these skulls. He then comes back only to find that suddenly Jergal has changed the rules again and "allowed Lady Luck" to decide things with a game of knucklebones.
So, just in an interest of seeing what can be done to make an interesting story, I wonder.... was that Malar, or was it written as a black cat and Faerunians interpreted it to be Malar.... meanwhile it was Jergal handing off his power to an aspect of himself in another pantheon calling himself Nergal.
Other options... was this Kelemvor going back in time? At the same time, is there a link between Kelemvor and Nergal... somehow... not saying same being, but some other twist.
Obviously, it could also be the beastlord as written, but sometimes it is worth considering that "the sages that know" are often misinterpreting things.
As another thought experiment, there's also N'asr in the story of the Bedine as the god of the dead. He's served by vultures who ferry the dead to his realm, and by "djinn" that he turns over some of the dead to to punish them. A spin on this might be that N'asr is Nergal's name down in Zakhara (where it should be noted there are references to Nergal's wife Ereshkigal on the island of the necromancer kings). Basically... this raises the question of are there multiple aspects of Jergal throughout the world, and the one he used in Netheril was Jergal, but he also got involved with the Untheric pantheon via marriage to the death goddess Ereshkigal, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 28 Dec 2022 17:13:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36819 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2022 : 17:08:02
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But it doesn't actually say Malar was in any sort of feline form, at least not in Faiths & Avatars. And it openly says it was Malar.
I'm willing to read into things, but I need more than what we have here. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11882 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2022 : 18:15:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But it doesn't actually say Malar was in any sort of feline form, at least not in Faiths & Avatars. And it openly says it was Malar.
I'm willing to read into things, but I need more than what we have here.
When it comes to these myth stories, I look at them with a HIGHLY skeptical eye. For instance, I don't believe that there was an actual game of knucklebones that was done to determine who chose first, etc... Similarly, I don't believe that At'ar is "sleeping" with N'asr.... etc... I figure they are all allegory of some sort and not literal at all, and I further believe that they should be viewed with uncertain narrator. But, that's me. I get that you are more literal minded.
Also, speaking of Nergal / Ereshkigal and black cat gods/goddesses such as Malar.... I noted that we have "Ereshkigal" links in Zakhara via the Complete Necromancer sourcebook as well as her kingdom of the dead known as Erkalla and a story that sounds very much like the story of Ereshkigal and Inanna..... but using Cyric and Loviatar... with Cyric ruling in Ereshkigal & Nergal's city known as Erkalla. So, another link if one draws it back of Nergal to Jergal via a city of the dead.
Then there's a black cat goddess also in Zakhara who is known as "Kiga the Predator" ... who is a goddess of the hunt and the kill (either for sport or need), but also of assassination/ritual murder. At one point we were talking about her being another Egyptian goddess who maybe broke from the Mulhorandi pantheon (Sekhmet would seem to fit this idea).
Sidenote on N'asr and his "djinn" that take the dead.... it might be interesting if these were the "tasked genies" known as "Slayer genies".... who ironically have 4 arms, two of which resemble cat claws.
In all this, I very much wonder if there wasn't a 3rd migration of Mulan gods/goddesses down to Zakhara who refused to follow Ra or Enlil. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kelemvor’s Lycanthropy
