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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Dec 2022 : 12:01:11
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Hello.
I'd like to discuss the Philter of Love (AKA a "love potion") in The Forgotten Realms. Note the "[2e]" in the thread's title; later iterations amount to little more than a watered-down ephemeral Charm effect whereas the original version is closer to the real mythological deal. The many nefarious (i.e., Evil) applications are obvious and so I would prefer that we stick to exploring "Neutral" and "Good" goals.
- Select priests of Sune can eventually invoke the effects without the potion itself and specialized priests of Hanali Celanil can eventually brew such a concoction; both orders are Chaotic Good, but I am struggling to think of thematically-relevant benevolent uses.
- It has been suggested that these potions may be mutually imbibed by a royal couple whose fires are fading but who also must uphold the marriage for the sake of their kingdom.
- The Big G himself has mentioned the presence of especially wild revels and even orgies throughout Faerun. Participants informed well in advance would agree to take a draught from a bowl filled with the romance elixir, as long as the effects are dispelled at night's end.
- A Philter of Love may counteract Enchantment magic designed to foment hostility long enough to have both effects banished.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2022 : 15:05:47
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I can see these being used in an arranged marriage as a means to ensure that the couple stays together. If the individuals are of evil inclinations, it could also be used to help ensure the safety of each individual (in the belief that you wouldn't kill someone you love). If there is strife in the relationship, it could be used to stop that. If an heir is needed, it could be seen aa a means to help in that.
There are very likely more but that is all I can think of right now. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2022 : 19:54:41
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| Seems to me like the Philters should induce a strong attraction, but not induce a long-term attraction (such as marriage). Removing someone's free will for a long term should be a very powerful spell, IMO. YMMV. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2022 : 23:34:36
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After further rumination, I can see both clergies making use of these potions as training tools.
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
Seems to me like the Philters should induce a strong attraction, but not induce a long-term attraction (such as marriage). Removing someone's free will for a long term should be a very powerful spell, IMO. YMMV.
They caused the drinker to be enamored until the effect is dispelled (which is effectively permanent, unless acted upon by an outside force); in time, it is possible that affection of a genuine sort could be developed. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2022 : 06:01:16
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Well, this magic item is a problem as most, even more so the "safe" offical writers for a RPG company, can't even write out what it does. And they even have to be careful about "suggesting" what it might do.
Good Uses(er, but still shady)
Couple Double Drink---Well........a couple could willingly drink a pither each to become enamored with each other. Some couples might, er, see it as a romantic gesture to be magicaly enamored with each other.
Even a Good couple might renew their vows to each other each year....and renew the magical enamor. This would be a typical Sune type party.
A Good couple could might drink the potion(s) to have a "great night" to remember.
It could be required by an assassin or such to drink a potion of love and then look at their intended victim. Typically at the royal, noble, ruler level...but maybe everyone that can afford it.
Still a bit Good, but shady, is one person in a couple might drink a love potion to, er, "bring back the spark/connection that they no longer feel for their partner". Guess it's 50/50 if they tell their partner about this. Though some might well be happy that someone loves them so much that they are willing to magical enamor themself to that person.
Another Good, but shady, is if one person in a couple suffers from a magical effect like a curse that makes them "less then desirable". This could help if one person is under a curse to 'stink' or if they are magical aged. Or......wow...if the other person becomes undead(like a vampire, sigh).
And, at the real edge of good.....well one person could drink a potion of love if the other one in the couple somehow became "less then desirable" by non magical means....
Again on the edge of "Good" and if you could make a lesser "feels family love" potion...some families might drink the potion to "love" each other in a good family way. This could make the family social group much stronger, with members "loving in a family way" each other. And it sure could help family members "love in a family way" that creepy uncle, heartless monster, or other such family members. And it could sure help the family member that does not like an outsider that marries into the family that they don't care for.
For the Neutrals one.....well....a shy, awkward, young person might drink the potion to "free" themselves to have a "first time". This could even be a ritual done by a cleric of Sune.
Either the person hiring the "escort" for an evening or the escort themselves might drink the potion to enhance the experience. They could even charge a premium for this....
Anyone in a social or political relationship or other such coupling that they don't "want" but are required to have......might well use the potion to "live with it".
A royal, noble, person of influence might "ask" someone to drink a slightly lesser potion of love to seal a deal. With the idea that you would not hard or cheat or betray someone you love(though, well, people do......).
A party might be a free love party....drink and be free and love. Again the church of Sune would be all in to this type of party. Take like the love mixer: gather all the single women in a circle. Blindfold a guy, have him drink the potion and spin around. One he falls and gets up he takes off the blindfold and "picks" that woman. She gets the choice of drinking her own potion or just going along naturally. Then do the reverse for the women.
And as the enamored effect can be dispeled, none of the above need to be forever. Clerics of Sune might regularly "clean up" troublesome "enamored love". And so can most other spellcasters, of course. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2022 : 08:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Well, this magic item is a problem as most, even more so the "safe" offical writers for a RPG company, can't even write out what it does. And they even have to be careful about "suggesting" what it might do.
Originally, I considered requesting that folks "Please keep real life squabbling to a minimum if not absent altogether." just in case, but I then remembered that the members of this forum are mature enough to police themselves and/or separate fiction from reality. Anyhow, yes: these days, that's just as good as blood in the water.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
It could be required by an assassin or such to drink a potion of love and then look at their intended victim. Typically at the royal, noble, ruler level...but maybe everyone that can afford it.
An assassin? Color me simultaneously confused and intrigued. For what reason?
Otherwise...I think you just might have kickstarted a Philter of Love economy. Those Nymphs had better watch out. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2022 : 01:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
An assassin? Color me simultaneously confused and intrigued. For what reason?
The idea is the assassin gets caught and is forced to drink the potion of love. They won't/can't kill someone they love, so the intended target will be safe.
Picture the assassin in the balcony slowly assembling his crossbow of death. Then he looks for his target: the princess. But as soon as he does he breaks down and cries because how, HOW could he ever harm such a vision of beauty. (and, gets caught again.....)
Though the results might vary as some one sure CAN kill someone they love.
And...well, you really want to get out there, there are different kinds of love: you'd need a potion for each. One that would work for an assassin would be "Jealous Love" so the drink (or their boss makes them drink) the love potion to become obsessed with their target...."AND IF I CAN'T HAVE HER I WILL KILL HER SO NOBODY WILL!" |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2022 : 02:44:12
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
An assassin? Color me simultaneously confused and intrigued. For what reason?
The idea is the assassin gets caught and is forced to drink the potion of love. They won't/can't kill someone they love, so the intended target will be safe.
Picture the assassin in the balcony slowly assembling his crossbow of death. Then he looks for his target: the princess. But as soon as he does he breaks down and cries because how, HOW could he ever harm such a vision of beauty. (and, gets caught again.....)
Though the results might vary as some one sure CAN kill someone they love.
And...well, you really want to get out there, there are different kinds of love: you'd need a potion for each. One that would work for an assassin would be "Jealous Love" so the drink (or their boss makes them drink) the love potion to become obsessed with their target...."AND IF I CAN'T HAVE HER I WILL KILL HER SO NOBODY WILL!"
I thought it was a Total Recall kind of scenario: by fooling one's self, they'd make the perfect actor (in this case, a suitor) that could be "activated" (by another professional casting Dispel Magic) once the time is right. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2022 : 18:43:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I thought it was a Total Recall kind of scenario: by fooling one's self, they'd make the perfect actor (in this case, a suitor) that could be "activated" (by another professional casting Dispel Magic) once the time is right.
Well the Manchurian Agent Assassin trope is a Evil use...and you said you did not want those.
But sure you could brainwash your assassin with love for the target and have them live in love and happiness....until you hit the assassin with a dispel and they kill the target. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2022 : 21:18:14
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| Probably the only good-aligned use of a love philtre is when the imbiber(s) drink it willingly with full knowledge of the potion's effects. For example, a married person struggling with an unwanted attraction might drink a love philtre to re-focus their heart and mind on their spouse. Other than that, though, I can't think of anything. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2022 : 09:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
I thought it was a Total Recall kind of scenario: by fooling one's self, they'd make the perfect actor (in this case, a suitor) that could be "activated" (by another professional casting Dispel Magic) once the time is right.
Well the Manchurian Agent Assassin trope is a Evil use...and you said you did not want those.
But sure you could brainwash your assassin with love for the target and have them live in love and happiness....until you hit the assassin with a dispel and they kill the target.
I've read arguments that "assassins" can be Good-aligned (a famous secret agent among them) and the basic Thief/Rogue can pull off that role in a pinch while otherwise adhering to a Good Alignment. Ultimately, my mind was in a different place than yours when I read the aforementioned suggestion  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2023 : 18:28:23
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Sune is a goddess of love and passion.
Yes - magics, enchantments, spells, potions, elixirs can create love and passion. At least for a duration.
But it seems to me that this is sort of artificial. It's sort of cheating.
It seems to me that clergy of Sune who stimulate love and passion in this fake way are essentially doing the same thing Cyric did with his Cyrinishad - they're magically depriving others of volition, they're magically compelling others to provide worship and faith.
So it seems to me that Sune's clergy would not condone the reckless use of these potions. They would encourage natural, genuine feelings of love. Forcing false and ephemeral affections onto "victims" would only diminish natural ardor and, in turn, diminish their goddess. Indeed, replacing natural affections with magical placebos would only be an insult to this goddess. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Jan 2023 18:37:00 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2023 : 03:05:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Sune is a goddess of love and passion.
Yes - magics, enchantments, spells, potions, elixirs can create love and passion. At least for a duration.
But it seems to me that this is sort of artificial. It's sort of cheating.
It seems to me that clergy of Sune who stimulate love and passion in this fake way are essentially doing the same thing Cyric did with his Cyrinishad - they're magically depriving others of volition, they're magically compelling others to provide worship and faith.
So it seems to me that Sune's clergy would not condone the reckless use of these potions. They would encourage natural, genuine feelings of love. Forcing false and ephemeral affections onto "victims" would only diminish natural ardor and, in turn, diminish their goddess. Indeed, replacing natural affections with magical placebos would only be an insult to this goddess.
2e Dungeon Master Guide ->
quote:
Philter of Love: This potion causes the individual drinking it to become charmed (see charm spells) with the first creature seen after consuming the draught. The imbiber may actually become enamored if the creature is of similar race and of the opposite sex. Charm effects wear off in 1d4+4 turns, but the enamoring effects last until a dispel magic spell is cast upon the individual.
Faiths & Avatars ->
quote:
At 12th level, Heartwarders may arouse feelings of love (as the enamoring effects of a Philter of Love) in any intelligent being and cast mass charm (as the 8th-level wizard spell) once a tenday.
All of that information is canon. The pertinent question concerning this potion (or solely its effects, for the Heartwarder) is "How would a chiefly Chaotic Good clergy make use of this magic?". |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2023 : 10:35:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Sune is a goddess of love and passion.
Yes - magics, enchantments, spells, potions, elixirs can create love and passion. At least for a duration.
But it seems to me that this is sort of artificial. It's sort of cheating.
It seems to me that clergy of Sune who stimulate love and passion in this fake way are essentially doing the same thing Cyric did with his Cyrinishad - they're magically depriving others of volition, they're magically compelling others to provide worship and faith.
So it seems to me that Sune's clergy would not condone the reckless use of these potions. They would encourage natural, genuine feelings of love. Forcing false and ephemeral affections onto "victims" would only diminish natural ardor and, in turn, diminish their goddess. Indeed, replacing natural affections with magical placebos would only be an insult to this goddess.
Psychedelics are said to have a similar effect to meditation, and it is not uncommon for people who are into meditation to recommend psychedelics as a way to experience what advantages you could get from the regular practice of meditation (even though those advantages should not be considered as the goal of meditation). So they're a short-hand to getting something pleasant that could convince someone to make the effort to get the real deal.
Similarly, I can imagine a priestess of Sune meeting someone who is trapped in a loveless marriage and convincing them to try a love potion to show them that there's more to life and they should search for true love (whether it's with their spouse or not). |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2023 : 15:48:46
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| Concerning (perceived?) artificiality to whatever extent it does or doesn't exist: the nature of the love potion itself may depend on whether it is brewed by an arcane practitioner or a servant of the divine. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 01:37:39
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As with every deity, they allow a large Big Tent of and don't nitpick followers down to being drones. So you'd see:
1.The Lovers of Pure True Love: The only Love is True Love. Love magic should never be used.
2.Using magic is cheating, but it might smooth an edge or two...but should never tamper with True Love.
3.The Divine Magic of Sune is Special and never Wrong and can be used at Will. Trust in Sune.
4.Magic is part of our lives, use it as you would any tool.
5.While mundane love is fine, Magical Love is the Highest Love.
And Sune is worshiped in a lot of places....like Both Waterdeep and Thay, and you know the churches are not alike. In Waterdeep the message is more "go find your ONE TRUE LOVE, there is someone for everyone, wink wink". The Thay message....."whoever you like(lust) at the moment is your Love, do anything to be with them". |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 13:14:22
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Does Sune take umbrage with polyamory?
Anyhow, here's another use: in a region experiencing a significant population deficiency, enough Philters of Love just might facilitate the creation of another generation.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2023 : 23:17:44
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There does not seem to be an marriage lore for Sune I can find. Somehow I know if we were to ask Ed he'd say "any number is fine" as Realms Folk are far more "open" then the average American. Though I'm also more then sure TSR/WotC would have deleted any mention of it they could.
I can see societies using potions of love to keep population numbers up, willingly or not. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 12:57:02
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Whoa...hold on a second here.
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
And Sune is worshiped in a lot of places....like Both Waterdeep and Thay, and you know the churches are not alike.
...
The Thay message....."whoever you like(lust) at the moment is your Love, do anything to be with them".
A religion predominantly consisting of benevolent bohemians who tend to practice "free love" persisting in what is essentially a fascist-magocracy? Talk about swimming against the tide  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 20:27:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
A religion predominantly consisting of benevolent bohemians who tend to practice "free love" persisting in what is essentially a fascist-magocracy? Talk about swimming against the tide .
It can fit in lots of ways:
Life is cheep in Thay(though not so different then the rest of the world). Not just for slaves, for everyone. All the worker class, the 'middle class' , everyone. When people live such a life, they do tend to 'party hard'. Party hard, you may die the next day.
The typical "Lawful Evil" uptight society, often has a HUGE 'semi legal semi secret' underground
Or you know like the movie....Eyes Wide Shut
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[2e] Philters of Love in The Realms
