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Diffan
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Posted - 29 Nov 2022 :  16:14:29  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So, I posted this in the Exclusive 3.5 FB group. If any of you guys are on that, sorry you have to see it twice. That said, I've created a Prestige Class that caters to those that exclusively use the sword as their preferred weapon. So, some might ask questions such as:

"Why is another prestige class necessary?" In 3.5 D&D, a variety of specialized options are available depending on the style of combat you enjoy using. Some like to throw weapons, and as such there's the Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade, and Hulking Hurler to aid that concept. If you like Scimitars, then the Dervish might fit your fancy. Or maybe you just like Two-Weapon Fighting, then the Tempest or Bloodclaw Master might do the trick. There's advanced classes for all sorts of martial combat, including Mounted warfare (Animal Lord, Cavalier, Wild Plains Rider), unarmed combat (Battle Rager, Drunken Master, Reaping Mauler, Tattooed Monk), and even Archery (Order of the Bow Initiate, Peerless Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Arcane Archer). However there's none that really fit the bill for a general sword (bastard sword, longsword, greatsword, etc). Even rapiers get a little love (such as the Duelist and Swiftblade). So I created this for characters that didn't want to divulge into magic and get benefits from using a Sword.

"How broken / over-powered is this prestige class?" I created the prestige class and received a lot of good feedback on FB to keep it level. Of course, people's perception of OP/too-powerful are going to sway wildly - especially in 3.5 - but suffice to say that I tried to keep things in-line with other options that are available in RAW. Now, this Prestige Class DOES assume the full breadth and width of 3.5 is available, including all the Complete books, Tome of Battle, Dragon magazine, etc. If you're going by just the Player's Handbook or Core 3 then this will be a Prestige Class that outshines many in the DMG. It also makes use of a feat from Races of the Wild. I'll go over anything people might think is too good, and show how/where it can be done via actual RAW.

Also, if you like this PrC and want a PDF of it (or any of the dozen or so PrCs that I've made), just send me a PM with your email and I'll send them to you.

So, without further ado, here's the Sword Master

SWORD MASTER
†††The sword master and their blade are as one. As a sword master, they are able to employ their steel in ways that no lesser warrior can even imagine. They have traveled far and wide to find and alter their fighting styles to add to their growing repertoire of guards, cuts, and strikes.
†††NPC sword masters often open dojos and schools for those wealthy enough or eager enough to learn the ways of the sword.
†††Hit Die: d10

Table 1ó1: THE SWORD MASTER

LvL   BAB  Fort | Ref | Will                      Special
1st   +1    +2    +2    +0          Impetuous strike (-2 attack, -2 AC), weapon superiority
2nd   +2    +3    +3    +0          Perfect guard +1
3rd   +3    +3    +3    +1          Master riposte
4th   +4    +4    +4    +1          Rending cut
5th   +5    +4    +4    +1          Impetuous strike (-1 attack, -1 AC), perfect guard +2
6th   +6    +5    +5    +2          Steel challenge 
7th   +7    +5    +5    +2          Intoxication of battle
8th   +8    +6    +6    +2          Impetuous strike (no penalties), perfect guard +3
9th   +9    +6    +6    +3          Rush of steel
10th  +10   +7    +7    +3          Cruel flourish

††Requirements
††††To qualify to become a sword master, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
††Base Attack Bonus: +5
††Skills: Intimidate 5 ranks
††Feats: Combat Reflexes, Expeditious Dodge (see Races of the Wild), Weapon Focus (Bastard sword, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, or short sword).
††Class Features
†††All of the following are class features of the Sword master prestige class.
††††Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sword masters gain no proficiency with any weapons or armor.
††††Impetuous Strike (Ex): Sword masters learn how to follow their initial cut with a string of additional strikes, albeit at the cost of opening themselves up as an easier target. Starting at 1st level, as a standard action, the sword master can choose to make two melee attacks, instead of one, with a weapon they have chosen for their Weapon Focus feat. Each of these attacks take a -2 penalty to the attack roll, and the sword master suffers a -2 penalty to AC until the following round. As the sword master gains levels, these penalties are reduced. At 5th level, the penalty to attacks and AC is reduced to -1. At 8th level, the penalties to attacks and AC are completely removed.
††††Weapon Superiority: Sword masters gain the Weapon Specialization feat with the weapon they have chosen for their weapon focus, as a bonus feat. If they already have Weapon Specialization, choose another Fighter feat for which they must meet the prerequisites. Additionally, you qualify for feats that usually require a minimum number of fighter levels as if you had a fighter level equal to your Sword master level.
††††Perfect Guard (Ex): A sword masterís ability to defend themselves with just their blade improves. Beginning at 2nd level, the bonus they gain from the expeditious dodge feat increases by +1 (for a total of +3). This bonus increases as a sword master increases in level, with the bonus increasing by +1 at 5th level and again at 8th level, for a total of +5.
††††Master Riposte (Ex): A sword masterís ripostes are so forceful that they often knock their enemies down. Beginning at 3rd level, when a sword master successfully hits with an Attack of Opportunity, using a weapon they have chosen for their Weapon Focus feat, they may also initiate a trip attempt as a free action. If they fail in the attempt, the opponent cannot immediately react and attempt to trip them.
††††Rending Cut (Ex): Sword masters have learned to hone their skills with their preferred weapon that its blade cuts more efficiently. When a sword master scores a critical hit with a weapon they have chosen for their weapon focus feat, the weapon deals an additional 2d6 points of damage. For every 4 hit die the sword master has, the cut Ė unless neutralized with magical healing Ė lasts for another round, dealing another 2d6 points of damage in that round. This additional damage does not stack with itself and is precision-based, and thus any creature immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to rending cuts.
††††Steel Challenge (Ex): A sword master can strike at his foolish enemies that are careless with their attacks. Whenever an enemy misses the sword master the with a melee attack, it provokes an attack of opportunity from the sword master each time they swing. Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foeís attack.
††††Intoxication of Battle (Ex): As combat swirls, a sword master allows themselves to be swept up by the fervor of battle, steel, and death. At 8th level, when a sword master deals a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it below 0 hit points or killing it), they also gain 2d6 + their Constitution modifier temporary hit points. These temporary hit points last until they are spent or after 1-minute.
††††Rush of Steel (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, a sword master can make a third attack with his Impetuous Strike feature.
††††Cruel Flourish (Ex): At 10th level, a sword masterís flurry of steel and power is a dazing sight to his enemies. Whenever a sword master takes a full-attack action, or takes full effect of his impetuous strike feature, creatures successfully hit more than once per turn must succeed on a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 sword master's HD + Cha modifier) or be dazed for 1 round. This is a mid-affecting ability.


Edited by - Diffan on 29 Nov 2022 16:35:06

Delnyn
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Posted - 30 Nov 2022 :  22:01:25  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How many attacks of opportunity is a sword master with steel challenge allowed? I have this amusing image of a hecatonchieres armed with 100 longswords of speed and another 100 dancing longswords missing a sword master every single time. Would steel challenge allow 300 attacks of opportunity?
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Diffan
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Posted - 01 Dec 2022 :  00:33:53  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

How many attacks of opportunity is a sword master with steel challenge allowed? I have this amusing image of a hecatonchieres armed with 100 longswords of speed and another 100 dancing longswords missing a sword master every single time. Would steel challenge allow 300 attacks of opportunity?



Lol well no, even if you had a dozen swords flying around you and you were holding two, you would still only be limited to the number of attacks to opportunity = 1 + your Dex modifier due to combat reflexes feat.

The Steel Challenge feature is similar to a poor man's Robilar's Gambit feat (Player's Handbook 2. Not only can you toggle the feat on or off at your choosing, it provides a benefit (+4 bonus) to you and their attacks and damage rolls per turn.
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Delnyn
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Posted - 04 Dec 2022 :  15:21:51  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For flavor's sake, could we add Improved Trip feat as a prerequisite? I think the feat would tie in very well with Master Riposte. This PrC is quite enjoyable. Also, is the weapon list exhaustive? I would think falchion, cutlass or jovar would fit in well.
A jovar would work well with Rending Cut, even if it is not made of kaorti resin.

EDIT: I just realized the character would also need Combat Expertise to pick up Improved Trip. So there is a double feat tax (and Int 13) or dip 2 levels into monk. My inquiry is rescinded.

Edited by - Delnyn on 04 Dec 2022 15:30:20
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Diffan
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Posted - 04 Dec 2022 :  15:53:15  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

For flavor's sake, could we add Improved Trip feat as a prerequisite? I think the feat would tie in very well with Master Riposte. This PrC is quite enjoyable. Also, is the weapon list exhaustive? I would think falchion, cutlass or jovar would fit in well.
A jovar would work well with Rending Cut, even if it is not made of kaorti resin.

EDIT: I just realized the character would also need Combat Expertise to pick up Improved Trip. So there is a double feat tax (and Int 13) or dip 2 levels into monk. My inquiry is rescinded.



One of the reasons for Master Riposte was that the tripping occurs in a very specific situation, so it's great for Tripper builds but you don't need to go that route if you don't want to. Not to mention the idea is to allow a variety of classes enter this where requiring the current lists plus Combat Expertise and Imp. Trip limits it mostly to Fighters only.

For other blades, Falchion, Cutlass, etc yeah that works too. I kept it to just the PHB options, but others works fine too.
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Delnyn
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Posted - 13 Dec 2022 :  20:15:05  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe it is only me, but I really enjoy rush of steel giving melee fighters an often-full attack routine (OK, not at +16 BAB upward) for only the cost of a standard action. Having that move action available after three strikes sounds extremely handy.
As a mental exercise, I will retrofit my younger brother's old AD&D-sourced pure fighter with this prestige class.
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Diffan
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Posted - 13 Dec 2022 :  21:23:24  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn

Maybe it is only me, but I really enjoy rush of steel giving melee fighters an often-full attack routine (OK, not at +16 BAB upward) for only the cost of a standard action. Having that move action available after three strikes sounds extremely handy.
As a mental exercise, I will retrofit my younger brother's old AD&D-sourced pure fighter with this prestige class.



One of the biggest detriments to weapon-based characters in 3.5 is the severe limitations they have to their action economy. Moving more than 5-ft means they lose up to 3/4 of their potential at dealing damage per round. That....well is NOT good. One of the biggest aspects of this class is to reduce how stringent the action economy is on a martial character.

Now, there are "official" ways around this, namely gaining Pounce (from the Barbarian) or some feat like Dual-Strike (which is bad), a feat like Slashing Flurry (meh), or a maneuver that allows multiple attacks per turn. So this helps with a huge burden that warriors face.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Dec 2022 :  23:16:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, impetuous strike works to let them move a little and still get multiple attacks.... or they can stay in one spot/move 5 ft and do a full action and get all their attacks.

Bear in mind, my 3.5 skills are rusty as hell, but let me see if there's any disclaimers I'd add.

Steel Challenge is very powerful, I would probably add one small disclaimer to say that only so many attacks of opportunity can go against a single foe. It probably would never come into play, but just in case.... say maybe two strikes. However, I'd allow steel challenge to be used against multiple foes. Thus we can picture him faced against multiple foes that are missing him and he's returning fire accordingly. I can probably see improved cleave coming into play with this as well adding on extra attacks to the next foe because your AC was so high that the first guy failed to hit you and missed and got himself eviscerated. With the steel challenge allowing a riposte that trips and improved trip you could also end up generating extra attacks. It gives a good reason to be using combat expertise along with that expeditious dodge feat (with perfect guard) to raise your AC in order to get additional attacks via steel challenge > riposte > improved trip > free attack... essentially they attack you once and miss gives you possibly 2 attacks on them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Dec 2022 23:23:34
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Diffan
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Posted - 15 Dec 2022 :  10:50:12  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, impetuous strike works to let them move a little and still get multiple attacks.... or they can stay in one spot/move 5 ft and do a full action and get all their attacks.


Yes, it's like the feat Slashing Flurry (Player's Handbook 2) except the penalty isn't as steep but you don't get the feats second benefit (extra attack on a full-attack). It's also slightly less useful as Pounce, but you don't need to charge to use it.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Bear in mind, my 3.5 skills are rusty as hell, but let me see if there's any disclaimers I'd add.

Steel Challenge is very powerful, I would probably add one small disclaimer to say that only so many attacks of opportunity can go against a single foe. It probably would never come into play, but just in case.... say maybe two strikes. However, I'd allow steel challenge to be used against multiple foes. Thus we can picture him faced against multiple foes that are missing him and he's returning fire accordingly. I can probably see improved cleave coming into play with this as well adding on extra attacks to the next foe because your AC was so high that the first guy failed to hit you and missed and got himself eviscerated. With the steel challenge allowing a riposte that trips and improved trip you could also end up generating extra attacks. It gives a good reason to be using combat expertise along with that expeditious dodge feat (with perfect guard) to raise your AC in order to get additional attacks via steel challenge > riposte > improved trip > free attack... essentially they attack you once and miss gives you possibly 2 attacks on them.



So steel challenge is basically the feat Robilarís Gambit (Player's Handbook 2) without the toggle and advantages/drawbacks. The feat is written like Steel Challenge, except you choose to use it on your turn -instead of retroactively on a miss. It also provides the enemy with a +4 bonus to attack and damage rolls against you. BUT you gain the +4 bonus as well for the retaliatory attack. Robilarís Gambit also triggers even if the enemy hits you with an attack, steel challenge requires them to miss.

Both features still eat up your AoOs per round, thus a Sword Master with a Dex 14 is still only getting 3 AoOs regardless of how many attacks are made against him.
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Delnyn
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Posted - 15 Dec 2022 :  15:29:02  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Both features still eat up your AoOs per round, thus a Sword Master with a Dex 14 is still only getting 3 AoOs regardless of how many attacks are made against him.



Hence my scenario about the hecatonchieres and the 100 dancing longswords.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 15 Dec 2022 :  16:06:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, impetuous strike works to let them move a little and still get multiple attacks.... or they can stay in one spot/move 5 ft and do a full action and get all their attacks.


Yes, it's like the feat Slashing Flurry (Player's Handbook 2) except the penalty isn't as steep but you don't get the feats second benefit (extra attack on a full-attack). It's also slightly less useful as Pounce, but you don't need to charge to use it.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Bear in mind, my 3.5 skills are rusty as hell, but let me see if there's any disclaimers I'd add.

Steel Challenge is very powerful, I would probably add one small disclaimer to say that only so many attacks of opportunity can go against a single foe. It probably would never come into play, but just in case.... say maybe two strikes. However, I'd allow steel challenge to be used against multiple foes. Thus we can picture him faced against multiple foes that are missing him and he's returning fire accordingly. I can probably see improved cleave coming into play with this as well adding on extra attacks to the next foe because your AC was so high that the first guy failed to hit you and missed and got himself eviscerated. With the steel challenge allowing a riposte that trips and improved trip you could also end up generating extra attacks. It gives a good reason to be using combat expertise along with that expeditious dodge feat (with perfect guard) to raise your AC in order to get additional attacks via steel challenge > riposte > improved trip > free attack... essentially they attack you once and miss gives you possibly 2 attacks on them.



So steel challenge is basically the feat Robilarís Gambit (Player's Handbook 2) without the toggle and advantages/drawbacks. The feat is written like Steel Challenge, except you choose to use it on your turn -instead of retroactively on a miss. It also provides the enemy with a +4 bonus to attack and damage rolls against you. BUT you gain the +4 bonus as well for the retaliatory attack. Robilarís Gambit also triggers even if the enemy hits you with an attack, steel challenge requires them to miss.

Both features still eat up your AoOs per round, thus a Sword Master with a Dex 14 is still only getting 3 AoOs regardless of how many attacks are made against him.



Yeah, but a dex focused "warrior" with a dex of 28 via magic items and raising score by other methods could have like 10 AoO, correct (was there a limit on AoO's via combat reflexes)? Also, the free attack from improved trip doesn't specifically call it an AoO oddly... would need to relook over the rules on that... it probably is considered one. So, let me just play through the mechanics and see if I'm thinking right. Someone attacks, misses due to your high AC... steel challenge let's you do an AoO against them, then they get a free action to trip via master riposte, then if they do trip and have improved trip they get a free attack. So potentially, an attack and miss generates 2 response attacks (though at least the riposte can only be done once per round since it's a free action).

Robilar's Gambit specifically puts you in a more dangerous position to get AoO (i.e. you lose 4 AC). This class nets you bonus AC with improving expeditious dodge all the way up from +2 to +5 and steel challenge lacks the AC loss. So your opponents are much more likely to miss you, especially if someone stacks on things like combat expertise, a shield (possibly animated), deflection bonus items, etc....

That's why I'd say limit the number of times you can do steel challenge against a single opponent in a round to maybe twice (not a dealbreaker mind you, as the issue comes up only in odd scenarios). If you got your AC up high enough via raising your dex you could deal out a lot of response attacks when facing another warrior who is maybe dual wielding and taking a significant loss to attacks in order to generate more attacks. Limiting it to twice in a round per opponent doesn't seem too limiting. If you had say five opponents surrounding you, each missing twice, you'd still get your full 10 AoO's against them.... and that's before you actually do your own attacks.

I am trying to think the high end here where someone pushing their AC up and their AoO's up via dexterity, using weapon finesse and the tricks that go with that if you had a lot of feats like a fighter would. It might be that someone enters this prestige class late and just uses it for its goodness going into the epic levels (or starts it earlier, finishes it in the epics). Picturing someone doing the combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, weapon finesse builds... may need to measure how many feats it would take to do all this though. Overall though, I like what you did in trying to build a class around basically a moving swordsman.

SIDENOTE: Not sure if there is already text for something like this, but since things like the elven courtblade, thinblade, lightblade all can work like other swords for feats.... would they also qualify you for this class? Picturing a dextrous elf getting into this idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
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Posted - 16 Dec 2022 :  09:57:20  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, but a dex focused "warrior" with a dex of 28 via magic items and raising score by other methods could have like 10 AoO, correct (was there a limit on AoO's via combat reflexes)? Also, the free attack from Improved Trip doesn't specifically call it an AoO oddly... would need to relook over the rules on that... it probably is considered one.


Yes, a Fighter with Dex 28 (+9) modifier would get 10 AoO's per round. To my knowledge, there is no ceiling on AoO's. If you have Improved Trip, it's a free-action attack, as though you hadn't used your attack to trip (weird wording).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, let me just play through the mechanics and see if I'm thinking right. Someone attacks, misses due to your high AC... steel challenge let's you do an AoO against them, then they get a free action to trip via master riposte, then if they do trip and have improved trip they get a free attack. So potentially, an attack and miss generates 2 response attacks (though at least the riposte can only be done once per round since it's a free action).


That is correct. Enemy misses, generates an AoO (which is used to trip), if you have Improved Trip feat, you'll get an additional "free" attack as they fall to the ground.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Robilar's Gambit specifically puts you in a more dangerous position to get AoO (i.e. you lose 4 AC).


True. But it functions regardless of the outcome AND you generate your own attack at the same bonuses applied. Also, the attacks it generates do not depreciate in value, unlike normal BAB attacks. So that 3rd or 4th attack roll an enemy takes - despite the +4 bonus - is till at a much more depreciated value, while yours are not.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

This class nets you bonus AC with improving expeditious dodge all the way up from +2 to +5 and steel challenge lacks the AC loss. So your opponents are much more likely to miss you, especially if someone stacks on things like combat expertise, a shield (possibly animated), deflection bonus items, etc....


Precisely, though expeditious dodge can be tricky to get that 40 feet movement requirement, without initiating a Charge action and incurring a -2 AC from the Charge. Since Expeditious Dodge already adds +2, you're practically "charging" without a penalty and this class just increases that bonus.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

That's why I'd say limit the number of times you can do steel challenge against a single opponent in a round to maybe twice (not a dealbreaker mind you, as the issue comes up only in odd scenarios). If you got your AC up high enough via raising your dex you could deal out a lot of response attacks when facing another warrior who is maybe dual wielding and taking a significant loss to attacks in order to generate more attacks. Limiting it to twice in a round per opponent doesn't seem too limiting. If you had say five opponents surrounding you, each missing twice, you'd still get your full 10 AoO's against them.... and that's before you actually do your own attacks.


This isn't much different than what's currently allowed in WotC Official mechanics. Say we have a 12th level Fighter, with Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and Robilar's Gambit. For some reason, they have an impressive Dex score of 28 (+9 mod). In a situation where he's surrounded by 5 opponents, each attacking twice, He'll be able to attack each one once (at +4 Attack/Damage) and with their second attack, trip them for free, then follow up with an attack when/if they're prone. He can even do this at range (polearm) or close up in melee (Spiked Chain) while a Sword Master is limited to 5-ft. due to the preferred weapon requirement from Master Riposte.

What you're essentially getting is an extra attack prior to the trip. Improved Trip helps you with a follow-up one, but the feat now isn't a requirement or necessary for this PrC.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I am trying to think the high end here where someone pushing their AC up and their AoO's up via dexterity, using weapon finesse and the tricks that go with that if you had a lot of feats like a fighter would. It might be that someone enters this prestige class late and just uses it for its goodness going into the epic levels (or starts it earlier, finishes it in the epics). Picturing someone doing the combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, weapon finesse builds... may need to measure how many feats it would take to do all this though.


Possibly a lot? Assuming a human Fighter 10/ Sword Master 10, you're getting 8 from human and level increases and 6 Fighter feats for a total of 14. This PrC requires 3. There's also the stat requirements you have to take into account for things like Expeditious Dodge (Dex 13), and Combat Expertise (Int 13), which isn't always in the cards depending on the table you play at. What you'd want - feat wise - is Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip to really maximize your AoO's. I'd grab Deft Opportunist (Complete Adventurer) for the +4 attack bonus to AoOs, Expert Tactician (successful AoO gives you and your allies +2 circumstance bonus to melee/damage rolls vs that opponent for 1 round), maybe even Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook) for those two-weapon fighting Sword Masters who want to increase the number of attacks they make.

There's also feats like Clever Opportunist (Drow of the Underdark) that allows you to swap places with the target of your AoO - which I feel has a lot of fun situations and Spellcasting Harrier (Draconomicon) which allows an AoO if you're threatening someone casting defensively AND You get a nice +4 untyped bonus to the attack roll.


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Overall though, I like what you did in trying to build a class around basically a moving swordsman.


Thank you! I've been in HEMA about 9 months now and I've learned so much in that span alone on the versatility of swords and just fencing/sword-fighting in general. I feel 3.5 had some good ideas BUT really could have done more, not only with the weapon (a sword) but general fighting in total. I created this PrC to help reflect what I've learned so far (and I'm still in beginner mode) and wanted to really flesh out this aspect of martial combat. Also, ALL these other types get specialized classes: Dervish and Tempest for TWF, the Cavalier for mounted combat, a dozen Bow-based PrCs, a even the Lasher for whips/spiked chains. So, I felt this was a nichŤ that hadn't been tapped yet.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

SIDENOTE: Not sure if there is already text for something like this, but since things like the elven courtblade, thinblade, lightblade all can work like other swords for feats.... would they also qualify you for this class? Picturing a dextrous elf getting into this idea.



Delnyn had asked that too and I honestly don't see why not. I used the weapons found just from the Player's Handbook because I Felt those were the most common you'd find in any particular D&D setting. I'd say that the only thing to keep in mind is that this is generally for weapons used for Slashing, hence why no Rapiers were in the original list. Other weapons, like the Cutlass, Saber, two-bladed sword, are all cutting weapons. The elven lightblade and thinblade are both piercing, so I'd probably say "DM Discretion". However, the Courtblade is fine example of a weapon that would fit this PrC well. There's nothing inherently wrong with allowing the use of stabbing rapiers and elven thinblades.

Edited by - Diffan on 16 Dec 2022 09:59:14
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sleyvas
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Posted - 16 Dec 2022 :  17:20:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for posting. Sometimes it helps to go back and revisit that old edition and refresh myself on mechanics (and see some I may not have looked at, such as Robilar's Gambit). I personally wouldn't play this type of character, but I know other players that would. For myself, no matter what, there must be some spellcasting, but I love Gish type warrior-spellcasters. However, when I'm the DM, it helps to flesh out something different that players wouldn't expect.

While I would probably still add the one minor disclaimer personally, I don't see it as a game changer. I would recommend some kind of disclaimer though that says "with DM Discretions" racial weapons that can qualify for feats as long swords, short swords, bastard swords, two handed swords, etc... can also be used with the class. Then give examples of the elven blades. I'd also recommend specifically adding from Eberron the Talenta Tangat (a two handed scimitar used by halflings) since it wouldn't match the "can qualify for feats as" thing, but I think it could definitely match.

I almost mentioned the gnomish swordcatcher from Races of Stone, and it might work, but I'd recommend a second opinion from you.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4402 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2022 :  18:01:06  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Thanks for posting. Sometimes it helps to go back and revisit that old edition and refresh myself on mechanics (and see some I may not have looked at, such as Robilar's Gambit). I personally wouldn't play this type of character, but I know other players that would. For myself, no matter what, there must be some spellcasting, but I love Gish type warrior-spellcasters. However, when I'm the DM, it helps to flesh out something different that players wouldn't expect.


Totally get it, I'm a 'Gish' style player too. Bladesingers, Paladins, Cleric/Fighters, etc. However, there are times when I enjoy the occasional grit my teeth, live by just the sword style guy and simply going "Fighter X" gets boring.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

While I would probably still add the one minor disclaimer personally, I don't see it as a game changer. I would recommend some kind of disclaimer though that says "with DM Discretions" racial weapons that can qualify for feats as long swords, short swords, bastard swords, two handed swords, etc... can also be used with the class. Then give examples of the elven blades. I'd also recommend specifically adding from Eberron the Talenta Tangat (a two handed scimitar used by halflings) since it wouldn't match the "can qualify for feats as" thing, but I think it could definitely match.

I almost mentioned the gnomish swordcatcher from Races of Stone, and it might work, but I'd recommend a second opinion from you.



That's a good idea, I certainly don't want to curtail someone's character style because the PrC doesn't specifically mention a particular weapon. I didn't go with the general "any Slashing Weapon" because that includes Axes and Polearms too, which isn't the inherent nature of this class. A disclaimer is the better way to approach it, so thanks!

So I looked at current options within the 3.5 System and I think I can get a pretty good facsimile of this PrC with *JUST* offical Options. Basically you need the following feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, and Knock-Down (it was incorporated into 3.5 SRD). These 5 Feats allow you to respond to an attack with an AoO, which triggers Trip, which triggers a follow-up attack. One level of Barbarian for Pounce nets you something akin to Impetuous Strike (it's actually better). Other things are harder to do, but those weren't the cusp of what the class's design was.
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