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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12016 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2022 : 00:24:23
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Rather than muddy another topic, I kind of felt like opening up a general discussion of ideas that we might use from Mystara or link between Toril and Mystara, etc... (Ed himself has already linked the two with the Minstrelwish clan of halflings )
Firstly, I recommend reading the FR wiki entry on Mystara. It has some good facts.
First thoughts, the Immortals of Mystara... they are all linked to the Spheres of Power. The spheres of power that immortal players can arise from are like quasi-elemental planes because they're linked to an elemental type and an alignment. So, in some ways, someone might be able to think of these "immortals" as "primordials". We even have ascended Primordials with Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer. Now, I'm not trying to say that Abeir is Mystara, but long ago... maybe the primordials sent to Abeir were also drawing on these spheres of power and the way the planes "linked" to Toril was different.
At the same time, there are a number of Immortals in Mystara that we would recognize as gods from other pantheons. What if these are actually manifestations, much like the Mulhorandi gods created to send to Toril?
Next, take a look at this map and note the upper left hand continent. Now rotate it about 45 degrees clockwise. It just MIGHT be a good rough size and shape comparison to the continent we've been calling Anchorome / Maztica / Lopango
https://mystara.thorfmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/thibault-mystara-24.png
So, what if the Elven Sundering... that "reached forward and backward in time" or however it's phrased.... actually "copied over" a continent from Mystara to this world... So, when might they have copied from? What if it were during "The Great Rain of Fire" in 3000 BC or when in 1700 BC when the elves cause another explosion.
Why do I say all of this? We have all this lore of the humans of Anchorome living below the ground and coming to the surface then settling. We have it that the Immortals of Mystara magically whisked some of the Oltec and Azcan peoples to "the Hollow World" to preserve the civilization... or later when the elves blow up an artifact it affects the Atruaghin clans who are very native american like. All of these "types" of cultures are tropes in Maztica and Anchorome.
Will come back to this topic later, but wanted to see what people might add.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2022 : 10:09:27
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I'm not sure why you want them to be connected. They were not. Any map similarities likely stem from the fact that both worlds have design elements based off Earth.
Mystara, is, perhaps, even more well detailed than Toril. (Not in small areas, but as a world). Every major nation is described. Dynasties and ages and wars and migrations. Hollow World is slightly less flushed out, but it too has very detailed write ups. None of them correspond to FR I'm afraid.
I also don't think they have done much crossing. Why? The spells known have some very different principles. This seems simplistic, but it is not. In Mystara, Magic-Users commonly have access to healing spells at high levels (Heal was a 9th level spell) . Moreover, they have the ability to CREATE matter and life. Their spells don't summon monsters, they create them. They don't conjure matter, they "Form" it out of nothing. Incorporating either of these things into the Forgotten Realms would be a major game changer. I simply don't buy that if there was common connection between these worlds that the many archmages of Toril would fail to master the common magics of Mystara.
As for the Immortals, I decided long ago that it was largely a matter of semantics. The Immortals are Gods. Done. Their ranks line up like so: Initiates = Quasi-Deities or Demigods; Temporals = Lesser Gods; Celestials & Empyrials = Intermediate Gods; Eternals & Hierarchs = Greater Gods; finally The Old Ones are the Overpowers like Ao. Where "primordials" line up IDK. The term seems to be kind of a catch all. I can say that the spheres of immortals don't line up with elemental types. One of them, "Matter" would be all elemental types. "Energy" "Thought" and "Entropy" don't correspond at all. Better to think of them as a sort of Alignment - part of their Pathos. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12016 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2022 : 17:22:08
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My interest is only from a LORE and not necessarily a RULES perspective, and it would be purely for the fun factor of linking things back in history to explain away some similarities... not for currently play between the worlds. I'm also proposing that anything we do be done from a PAST perspective, so that the current setting of Mystara isn't taken into effect for instance (so that there's less detail)
So, that being said, it can help explain aways some things that we see, such as the appearance of certain types of gods/great spirits and cultures in Maztica/Anchorome. It creates a way that might be fun to explain away large amounts of destruction on the surface of Anchorome and Maztica that's not detailed. It might also allow us to include some elements of Mystara in Toril in a fun way (for instance, I really have liked the shadow elves of Mystara). It MIGHT be interesting even if the shadow elves of Mystara are beneath Anchorome, and have no real contact with the other elves of the world, and only recently that the dark elves that have migrated to the region might be in conflict with them beneath the surface of the world. It might also be interesting to use this to explain aways things like cat folk in the realms, tlincalli in the realms, etc... There's also some things in Mystara that might have been imported from Toril (for instance, the avariels of Toril possibly crossing to become the Ee'aarr of Mystara), but I'm not sure if I'd be qualified to do that.
Some other concepts of Mystara seem to readily import to the realms. For instance, "Black Balls" can kill immortals and are powers of Entropy. So, that just totally fits with the lore of Entropy the Godswallower in Chessenta. Also, during the spellplague, Entropy disappeared, but something appeared that was sucking away the land of Chessenta/Unther called the maw of the godswallower. There were several "giant black spheres of annihilation" that appeared around the realms following the spellplague as well. Not sure exactly what to do with that, but noting the similarities might spur the development of an idea.
One other thing we're seeing is that apparently new lore says that Netheril had magen. If there were some crossover that occurred say 2700 years ago (around the time elves blew up Glantri in Mystaran timeline) that would kind of mix in the time of Netheril. It might be interesting to have some powerful mystaran archmages appearing in the world in far flung locations from a lore standpoint (but finding their magic not working right). In the end, just feel like exploring the concepts and see where they go. Sometimes a good idea comes from it, sometimes not.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Nov 2022 17:35:23 |
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Delnyn
Master of Realmslore
USA
1037 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 09:49:52
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| We can have the terms "Mystara" and "Mystra" be interplanar mispronunciations of the same original term. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 12:11:32
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Can't say I see how you are connecting Maztica. If the only actual connection you see is map similarity, when both maps have a clear basis in a map of the Americas, then I think you are trying too hard to see a connection. The connection is the map makers based their map off the same maps :P Pretty simple.
Also, I'm not sure where you get black balls are entropy. If someone wrote that in one of the more recent MC editions, they were wrong. The black balls exist apart from the spheres of the Immortals. They are a destructive force that is outside of their control. They are not minions of the Immortals of Entropy in any way. They are absolutely neutral, non-intelligent dangerous things. Whether they are even alive is a debate among immortals.
As for Glantrian mages coming to fallen Netheril, I'd have to ask why. In Glantri, magic is a reliable, constant force that is theirs to control. In the realms, magic is out of control and wild. Seems a bad trade. More importantly, in Glantri, you have the Radiance. That is unique to the region. You also have the Seven Secret Crafts. Of these a couple have Realms analogs, but the structure is very different. Idk.
As for detail, I did not even know they had made a recent Mystara update. When I was talking about detailed lore, I meant the old stuff. Mystara has more product set in it than any other. 150 plus, over several editions. Even if you only look to the Almanacs for lore, there is more than enough to muddle things up.
If you really want some "crossover" I'd recommend just copying the thing you like and using it. There's nothing stopping you from converting an immortal into a god and using it. Or taking a place and fitting it into the realms. This would be MUCH simpler than trying to connect them.
I would probably recommend NOT trying to take Opal, Pearl, Diamond and The Great One into the realms. The dragon gods are complicated enough already without a side pantheon muddling that up. My head hurts just trying to think of a way to make that work. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12016 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2022 : 16:54:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Can't say I see how you are connecting Maztica. If the only actual connection you see is map similarity, when both maps have a clear basis in a map of the Americas, then I think you are trying too hard to see a connection. The connection is the map makers based their map off the same maps :P Pretty simple.
Also, I'm not sure where you get black balls are entropy. If someone wrote that in one of the more recent MC editions, they were wrong. The black balls exist apart from the spheres of the Immortals. They are a destructive force that is outside of their control. They are not minions of the Immortals of Entropy in any way. They are absolutely neutral, non-intelligent dangerous things. Whether they are even alive is a debate among immortals.
As for Glantrian mages coming to fallen Netheril, I'd have to ask why. In Glantri, magic is a reliable, constant force that is theirs to control. In the realms, magic is out of control and wild. Seems a bad trade. More importantly, in Glantri, you have the Radiance. That is unique to the region. You also have the Seven Secret Crafts. Of these a couple have Realms analogs, but the structure is very different. Idk.
As for detail, I did not even know they had made a recent Mystara update. When I was talking about detailed lore, I meant the old stuff. Mystara has more product set in it than any other. 150 plus, over several editions. Even if you only look to the Almanacs for lore, there is more than enough to muddle things up.
If you really want some "crossover" I'd recommend just copying the thing you like and using it. There's nothing stopping you from converting an immortal into a god and using it. Or taking a place and fitting it into the realms. This would be MUCH simpler than trying to connect them.
I would probably recommend NOT trying to take Opal, Pearl, Diamond and The Great One into the realms. The dragon gods are complicated enough already without a side pantheon muddling that up. My head hurts just trying to think of a way to make that work.
The connection with Maztica is the Quotal is clearly a very close parody of Quetzacoatl as a different name. That deity is a deity for Mystara, and the Azcan and/or Oltec people of Mystara also went underground as a result of the great rain of fire (something like a nuclear blast that devastated the surface). Several different groups of humans in Maztica / Anchorome have a story of having come from beneath the earth. Also, large swathes of the regions are deserts (the sands of Itzcala are pretty huge, and then there's the desert between Lopango and Maztica named after the fire deity).
Then another possible connection is the idea that some other humans of Anchorome resemble native americans and there's the Atruaghin clans in Mystara.
I propose there might have been possibly several crossovers in history. The above are just the human groups, but there's possibly others. Manscorpions/tlincalli, avariels/ee'aarr, etc.. might have crossed in one direction or another. I half wonder if the aearee and the ee'aar might not have some linked origins. Some of these links may not be direct either (i.e. I'm not against throwing the planet of Coliar into the mix, spelljamming, etc...). In the end, my goal is "what makes an interesting story without breaking the world".
On black balls and entropy, DM's Guide to Immortals, page 50.. they talk about black balls as "vortex creatures" and they say that The characteristics of all vortex creatures place them within the
Sphere of Entropy, though they are not actually part of that organization.... also in the book it talks about black balls essentially destroying immortals, so thus the ties I throw out for "Entropy the Godswallower" of Toril.
Also, as stated before, I'm not looking to "copy Mystara into the realms", so the idea of "taking what you want and using it" isn't what I'm looking to do. I'm looking to follow a longstanding FR tradition to come up with ways to create interesting "links" that might have happened in past history that might explain away anomalies. You then turn such links into something more tangible by writing a story around it. For instance, if some Netherese OR some Glantrians had crossed paths at some point, it might help explain away the Netherese magens (makes more sense than spontaneous exact same development across worlds). Now, that might be something where people didn't cross, but a book did with another group. It could be a lot of things.
As another example, if we say that the Quetzacoatl of Mystara created and sent over a "manifestation" in terms that we would recognize from the Mulan gods... and that "manifestation" was what people might also term a "primordial"... and that "primordial" renamed itself Quotal and then Ubtao... it might turn into an interesting story. Now that being said, it might be in the other direction as well. It also wouldn't be too odd to see a name change with him, as I am under the understanding that Quetzacoatl and Atruaghin are the same being in Mystara? That he effectively "rebirthed" himself as a mortal and rerose as an immortal again? Also, that he took what remained of the azcan and oltec people and led them to become the native american like atruaghin clans (which fits the whole Anchorome & Maztica vibes). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Nov 2022 21:22:50 |
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Mystaran Musings
