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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Just read the whole thing... Wow, that is some awesome stuff! I like how everything was threaded together.

And I'm still pondering all the implications of the info about Manshoon.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

What makes you think it was Cyric who messed with Manshoon’s “stasis clone” spell?

— George Krashos

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I equate it to the idea that new souls were created in order to bring all the clones to life. While clone creates a duplicate piece of flesh, it still essentially just migrates the soul in most instances. Having all of them awaken at once would imply that copies of the soul were generated.... but while the spell copies flesh perfectly, how well does it copy souls? So, like photocopies of photocopies, I imagine there's some degradation.... and then there's the divergence based on the things that happen to them afterward that would slowly shape them in different directions.

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Gerath Hoan, about Manshoon: I of course prefer my original, but the gorget (which of course by its name should be a throat collar, and not any sort of mask) is okay as a distinctive look for ONE of the clones. I prefer to think the REAL Manshoon is in hiding somewhere, watching his “lesser selves” operating, and awaiting his chance to strike at Fzoul at the same time as one of his clones does. It’s not just a matter of revenge, it’s a matter of Fzoul’s perversion of the Zhentarim into something less subtle and less effective than Manshoon intended it to be, more tied to the gods and less to subtly ruling and influencing Faerun through an ever-stronger brotherhood of mages (something Mystra would of course have supported, once Manshoon got past the “culling the magelings” stage).
I’ll get back to you with some suggestions on what some of the Manshoons are ‘up to’ (particularly the one co-operating with Fzoul in the Zhentarim).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Oh, holy mother of Lurue! I've just had a further thought...

Assuming Jemmoryn did all of that with Manshoon Beta -- what's to stop him from doing it again?

If he could do all of that once, it would make sense to do it more than once. Maybe Jemmoryn has made and altered many clones, sending them out into the world thinking they're their own entities and that they're pursuing their own goals -- but they're all acting in Jemmoryn's interests. (Or maybe he nudges wizards into finding a copy of the stasis clone spell, modifies the first clone they make, and then kills the original)

I think it unlikely that there would be a huge number of his modified clones out there; he'd likely only have a handful active at any given time. But a handful at a time, over more than a century, can still do a lot.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Not a bad idea having the original manshoon still alive. It wouldnt be all that difficult to do.

The Stasis Clone spell keeps clones in stasis, thus preventing the problem of the clones from killing each other to prove they are the real deal.

The Clone spell creates a real life clone that is not in stasis.

So Manshoon A creates a clone. Manshoon A vanishes so that Manshoon B never even knew A existed. Manshoon B then uses Stasis Clone to clone himself. It is this Manshoon B that died against the lich Varalla in Darkhold, and against Elminster several times. When he is killed and his next stasis clone is undead that causes the Manshoon Wars.

Manshoon A is still wandering around with none of the clones any the wiser to his existence. I'm sure i read in one of the sourcebooks that there was a person who looked exactly like Manshoon (i think it was in Cloak and Dagger), which might mean this Manshoon A had children in the centuries he has been in hiding.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Not a bad idea having the original manshoon still alive. It wouldnt be all that difficult to do.

The Stasis Clone spell keeps clones in stasis, thus preventing the problem of the clones from killing each other to prove they are the real deal.

The Clone spell creates a real life clone that is not in stasis.

So Manshoon A creates a clone. Manshoon A vanishes so that Manshoon B never even knew A existed. Manshoon B then uses Stasis Clone to clone himself. It is this Manshoon B that died against the lich Varalla in Darkhold, and against Elminster several times. When he is killed and his next stasis clone is undead that causes the Manshoon Wars.

Manshoon A is still wandering around with none of the clones any the wiser to his existence. I'm sure i read in one of the sourcebooks that there was a person who looked exactly like Manshoon (i think it was in Cloak and Dagger), which might mean this Manshoon A had children in the centuries he has been in hiding.

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Except the clone spell creates a duplicate with all the memories of the original, and in earlier editions, the clone and the original will try to kill each other if they're both active. In 5E, there's no possibility of clone and original being active at the same time, because the clone doesn't activate until the original dies.

So, regardless of edition, there's got to be some specialized magic involved to have both active at once, without trying to kill each other, and without the clone knowing it's a clone.

In Cloak & Dagger, which gave us the Manshoon Wars, it was stated that if a Manshoon became anything other than a living clone of Manshoon, it would be free of the compulsion to kill other Manshoon clones.

Hence, my idea of making the first clone, modifying its memories, and then using some special method to activate it. Other than not having published spells allowing the deliberate activation of a statis clone, my idea works with existing lore Ed has shared, officially published Realmslore, the not-official-but-really-should-be stuff like this, and the published rules.

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Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I was digging around and I cannot find Ecamane's cause of death. Does anyone know if it was heartstop or combat or some illness?

Edit: Also, after checking a few dates and such, there are a couple of other possible tie-ins with the story of the Nine Jewels:

Secrets of the Magisters has Jheslyra Khestellharp in Myth Drannor studying magic while the Jewels are there. It is entirely possible that her study of them aided her in the creation of her "arcanaweaves".

Several sources, including the web article Mintiper's Chapbook Part 6: Trail of Mists, list Fitzmilliyun Sparkledrim as being around prior to Ascalhorn's fall. Given the lifespan of gnomes and his probable operating in the North, it is entirely possible that he was friends with Ecamane and may have even been asked to study the Nine Jewels while they were in Ascalhorn given his skills as a caster and probable expertise in gems in general as a gnome. Perhaps, given those two data points, he was the foremost expert of the day on enchanting crystalline materials.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Just read the whole thing... Wow, that is some awesome stuff! I like how everything was threaded together.

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

Always happy to take feedback, even if negative.

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Originally posted by ericlboyd

Shadows of Doom, page 308, reveals that the stasis clone spell dates back to ancient Netheril. One way (not the only way) to interpret the passage is that in addition to the spell, Manshoon himself dates back to Netheril.

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