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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Apr 2022 : 18:02:52
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I want some back-history here. It seems to me that the Spelljammer stuff (hereinafter SJ) is polarizing. And I cant figure out why. In a world where no one sees anything wrong with Strong Magic, the ability to (rarely I admit) ascend to Godhood, and Planar/Astral travel
why do some folks gets riled up about Prime Material space travel??? To me, SJ should just be another one of the many fantastic things that can happen in the FR. Please enlighten me on the controversy. Thanks!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2022 : 18:53:09
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I'm not familiar with any kind of controversy...
I think, however, that Spelljammer suffered from three things. And keep in mind that I remain a huge Spelljammer fan, as I list these things.
1) For some reason, a lot of people got hung up on space travel not following the rules of real-world space travel
2) It was an uncoordinated mess. People working on Spelljammer material didn't check other Spelljammer material, and they didn't check the material for the settings Spelljammer touched. There was no management making sure no one stepped on anyone else's toes, and it shows. Some of the products contained some rather meh material, and there were a lot of contradictions with other setting material (like Krynnspace saying Krynn's three moons always remained equidistant from each other).
3) The designers overlooked or ignored the impact spelljamming could have on the other settings. The Zhents, for example, wouldn't have needed a trade route across the Anauroch if they could fly over it. And flying ships would have a huge impact on military matters. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2022 : 19:41:08
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The more focus you put on all other settings, the less you can put onto any one setting.
Spelljammer connected worlds. Planescape connected everything. Shifting adventures to those places makes the big map of Faerun look like a quaint little backwater full of ignorant bumpkins. It makes the narrative and history of their world just another show among many. It demotes their religions and nations and heroes and villains from grand, magnificent world-shaping entities into yet another compartmentalized collection of squabbling intermediates.
I never perceived any "polarization". Some people liked these settings or liked these sorts of settings. Some preferred other settings. It was a niche - just like Ravenloft or Al-Qadim or Underdark - it wasn't an all-or-nothing must-accept-or-must-reject offering.
Spelljammer was a mess. It had a lot of bad writing, errors, stupid ideas, self-contradictions and self-inconsistences. All presented in a haphazard, ill-organized branding kludge by publishers and marketers who wanted to focus on other products.
But it was also imaginative, epic, and inspirational in many ways. It ultimately led towards Planescape and other iterations. It provided an interesting adventure-filled method for characters to travel between other published settings.
I think it could have supplanted other settings if Wizbro really wanted to put the work into it. But of course they wouldn't want it to supplant other settings which were already established and doing quite well. D&D is "traditionally" about elven archers and blasting wizards and axe-pounding dwarves. The image of half-steampunky gunpowder-toting elven imperial officers and mage space navigators and dwarven space marines is equally compelling but it's not the familiar, comfortable, generic fantasy trope which everyone automatically expects.
(That's part of the reason Planescape was intimately interconnected to the entire cosmos in theory yet largely disconnected from the Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance worlds in practice.)
All that being said, vast armadas and ports of flying ships carrying aliens bent on trade, piracy, destruction, exploitation, and subjugation of groundlings ... clearly doesn't really fit very well with about 99% of existing Realmslore. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Apr 2022 20:04:14 |
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Outlander
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 15:08:39
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I think you'll find three major camps:
1. "I liked the old Spelljammer stuff and was excited to see it rendered in 5e- but now they've removed the original setting location (the phlogiston) and crammed everything else from Spelljammer into an existing setting (the Astral Plane). I don't like this new change.
2. "I had no attachment to the old Spelljammer stuff, but I liked Planescape, and now they've taken Spelljammer and crammed it into the Astral Plane. This has weird implications for the setting structure that I don't like."
3. "I had no attachment to the old Spelljammer stuff, and the Astral Plane was pretty empty anyway. Why not take some old content that hasn't seen the light of day in 30 years, and use it to revitalize the Astral Plane while also creating a space pirate setting?"
I can't speak for everyone in the first or second camps, let alone the third, but one of my big issues with their new direction for this is that they executed it in a way that changes the entire setting's cosmology, and in a way that makes a lot of expected Spelljammer plots weird. To summarize points I made in another thread regarding Spelljamming in the Astral Plane:
- If Spelljammer takes place in the Astral Plane, nobody there has to breathe, eat, or drink. Additionally, no one ages. Obviously, this would have really major implications for how things work on a basic level in a space pirate setting. There's no longer resource management for air/food stores, for one. Since no one ages, children have to be raised outside of the Astral Plane to grow. In the absence of death by natural causes, people would be far more hesitant to do daring pirate stuff- why fight to the death over treasure when you have forever to save up wealth, and you'll never go hungry either way?
- Combat would get weird and unbalanced, as combat movement speed in the Astral Plane is based on one's Intelligence score.
- Space pirates can now take off from a planet and fly to the Astral- which means they can fly to the Outer Planes from there. Where Spelljammer was pretty disconnected from the gods, this would provide Spelljammers with nearly casual access to the Outer Planes- one would expect far more religiosity as a result, especially since the Astral Plane contains passing angels, devils, demons, yugoloths, hags, and all sorts of other extraplanar creatures.
- The Prime Material Plane used to be its own infinite plane, standing toe to toe with the Inner, Outer, Ethereal, and Astral planes. Since it's been confirmed that the phlogiston has been replaced by the Astral altogether, that means the Prime Material Plane is now effectively bubbles of Material floating in the Astral, comparable to demiplanes floating in the Ethereal. This would be a pretty big shake-up to the cosmology, to say the least.
It's important to note that there would still be room for more traditional space stuff in the vacuum between a planet and the edge of one's crystal sphere (called wildspace)- but their focus right now seems very strongly on the Astral (based on what they've shown), and we've already seen at least one location from that vacuum (the Rock of Bral) apparently moved into the Astral. As such, it remains to be seen just how much emphasis they'll put on wildspace.
Some of the above points might get retconned to make things more reasonable, but then that could introduce other issues, like "Why are you contradicting your own edition's DMG". For now, all we can really do is wait and see. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 16:06:42
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Where does it say they removed the phlogiston? Sure, the apparently planar nature of this new version would preclude the existence of the Flow -- but that's only assuming that they don't change the nature of the Flow, as well. We don't have enough information to know for certain, at this time.
Also, I think the concerns about the nature of the Astral Plane have already been taken into consideration. The video shows a place that is most certainly not an endless silvery void, and we know there are comets and asteroids and such -- because there are minis of them -- and these are not astral things.
The most likely thing, given this info, is that Wildspace is going to be a different layer or area of the Astral. Maybe it's like a "near Astral" where it's somewhere between the Prime and the full-on Astral. Maybe it's an entirely separate plane that closely borders and can only be reached from the Astral, and movement between the two is nearly effortless.
Also, the original Spelljammer made it quite clear the Prime wasn't infinite. The Prime existed inside the crystal spheres, and they had very definitive hard boundaries. And there were different rules in different spheres, like non-magical gunpowder and electronics not working in Realmspace but working fine in Greyspace. Things like that are why I came up with my theory that like many other planes, there is one Prime with many layers.
Lastly, I fall into a fourth camp: "I loved the old Spelljammer stuff, and while I can see that some things have been changed for the 5E version, I'm waiting until we have more information before deciding how I feel about the new version." |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Apr 2022 16:09:43 |
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Outlander
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 17:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Where does it say they removed the phlogiston? Sure, the apparently planar nature of this new version would preclude the existence of the Flow -- but that's only assuming that they don't change the nature of the Flow, as well. We don't have enough information to know for certain, at this time.
Also, I think the concerns about the nature of the Astral Plane have already been taken into consideration. The video shows a place that is most certainly not an endless silvery void, and we know there are comets and asteroids and such -- because there are minis of them -- and these are not astral things.
The most likely thing, given this info, is that Wildspace is going to be a different layer or area of the Astral. Maybe it's like a "near Astral" where it's somewhere between the Prime and the full-on Astral. Maybe it's an entirely separate plane that closely borders and can only be reached from the Astral, and movement between the two is nearly effortless.
Also, the original Spelljammer made it quite clear the Prime wasn't infinite. The Prime existed inside the crystal spheres, and they had very definitive hard boundaries. And there were different rules in different spheres, like non-magical gunpowder and electronics not working in Realmspace but working fine in Greyspace. Things like that are why I came up with my theory that like many other planes, there is one Prime with many layers.
Lastly, I fall into a fourth camp: "I loved the old Spelljammer stuff, and while I can see that some things have been changed for the 5E version, I'm waiting until we have more information before deciding how I feel about the new version."
Ray Winninger confirmed on Twitter that, while there are "some nuances", the phlogiston is essentially being replaced by the Astral Sea:
https://twitter.com/WinningerR/status/1517233044255432704
As for the size of the Prime Material Plane, it certainly was infinite- it's just that the Material Plane included the space between the crystal spheres, where you'd find the phlogiston. The crystal spheres, of course, were still finite (though there may or may not have been an infinite number of them)- but for planar purposes, you never changed planes in the process of traveling from one crystal sphere to another.
Finally, while I also had my hopes up about a "near-Astral" as a compromise of sorts, the pre-order page refers to the Astral Sea and Astral Plane quite interchangeably. As such, I would be rather surprised if they ended up being separate, with the Astral Sea being a near-Astral area of the Material Plane, while the Astral Plane is still separate.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 17:19:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
Ray Winninger confirmed on Twitter that, while there are "some nuances", the phlogiston is essentially being replaced by the Astral Sea:
https://twitter.com/WinningerR/status/1517233044255432704
Okay, I'll give you that one, though those nuances could be rather important to the discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
As for the size of the Prime Material Plane, it certainly was infinite- it's just that the Material Plane included the space between the crystal spheres, where you'd find the phlogiston. The crystal spheres, of course, were still finite (though there may or may not have been an infinite number of them)- but for planar purposes, you never changed planes in the process of traveling from one crystal sphere to another.
Nope, the Flow was entirely cut off from the planes. Even the gods couldn't reach it. So either the phlogiston was its own plane, entirely isolated from all others, or it was (more likely) a space between planes -- but it most certainly wasn't part of the Prime or any other known plane.
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
Finally, while I also had my hopes up about a "near-Astral" as a compromise of sorts, the pre-order page refers to the Astral Sea and Astral Plane quite interchangeably. As such, I would be rather surprised if they ended up being separate, with the Astral Sea being a near-Astral area of the Material Plane, while the Astral Plane is still separate.
Again, though, we know that there are features in Spelljammer that are not present in the Astral, and the video shows a place that is not a silvery void.
And the monster description, on DNDBeyond, for Gadabouts, says "Gadabouts are gentle, winged creatures that can be used as personal conveyances for short-distance travel across the airless void of Wildspace."
So Wildspace is obviously not the default Astral.
There's only so much information that can be gleaned from a blurb on a product page. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Apr 2022 18:29:13 |
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Outlander
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 18:57:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nope, the Flow was entirely cut off from the planes. Even the gods couldn't reach it. So either the phlogiston was its own plane, entirely isolated from all others, or it was (more likely) a space between planes -- but it most certainly wasn't part of the Prime or any other known plane.
- On page 4-5 of the Player's Guide to the Planes (1994, part of the Planescape Campaign Setting set), under "The Prime Material Plane", the crystal spheres are described side by side with the phlogiston as simple features of the Material. Likewise, on page 32 of The Planewalker's Handbook (1996), the phlogiston is described next to the crystal spheres under the header of the Prime Material Plane, without any particular fanfare.
- Page 9 of The Concordance of Arcane Space (1989, part of the Spelljammer boxed set) explicitly states that Dimension Door and Teleport can take someone from one side of a crystal sphere to the other. That alone is solid proof that the phlogiston is a substance in the same plane as the crystal spheres, rather than its own planar region- you can't use 2e's Teleport to effect interplanar travel.
- In the novel Tymora's Luck, Lathander invites Chauntea to come with him to watch a cluster of crystal spheres be born and softly ping against each other.
My understanding was always that it's nothing so fancy as a space between planes or a plane unto itself. It's just a strange material that limits planar influence (including that of the gods)- or, perhaps, crystal spheres act as magnets for godly power, preventing them from spreading their influence into the phlogiston. The gods themselves can go there- they just can't effectively send their divine power through it. Either way, it was undoubtedly a part of the Prime Material Plane.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 19:50:42
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quote:
There's only so much information that can be gleaned from a blurb on a product page.
Yes.
There are now other pages full of information. All exaggeration, elaboration, fabrication, speculation - just like this scroll.
And take a look at the "marketing blurb" summaries written on the back cover of any other D&D product these days. It almost certainly does a poor job of describing the content intricacies in any meaningful way. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Apr 2022 19:52:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 23:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
- On page 4-5 of the Player's Guide to the Planes (1994, part of the Planescape Campaign Setting set), under "The Prime Material Plane", the crystal spheres are described side by side with the phlogiston as simple features of the Material. Likewise, on page 32 of The Planewalker's Handbook (1996), the phlogiston is described next to the crystal spheres under the header of the Prime Material Plane, without any particular fanfare.
Yeah, a feature of the Prime is that it can reach the phlogiston. But the Flow was not the Prime, because it was entirely cut off from ALL other planes.
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
- Page 9 of The Concordance of Arcane Space (1989, part of the Spelljammer boxed set) explicitly states that Dimension Door and Teleport can take someone from one side of a crystal sphere to the other. That alone is solid proof that the phlogiston is a substance in the same plane as the crystal spheres, rather than its own planar region- you can't use 2e's Teleport to effect interplanar travel.
The phlogiston can't be in the same plane as crystal spheres, or divine influence would extend to there and other planes would be accessible from there.
I would also point out that if teleport can't be used to travel across planes, and you can't teleport from one crystal sphere to another, then it means those spheres are not on the same plane.
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
- In the novel Tymora's Luck, Lathander invites Chauntea to come with him to watch a cluster of crystal spheres be born and softly ping against each other.
They could watch -- but it's explicitly stated that divine influence ends at the sphere.
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
My understanding was always that it's nothing so fancy as a space between planes or a plane unto itself. It's just a strange material that limits planar influence (including that of the gods)- or, perhaps, crystal spheres act as magnets for godly power, preventing them from spreading their influence into the phlogiston. The gods themselves can go there- they just can't effectively send their divine power through it. Either way, it was undoubtedly a part of the Prime Material Plane.
It can't be a part of the Prime when it can't exist inside a sphere (which is the Prime!), has entirely different properties, has no access to any other planes, and when gods can't even grant spells to clerics there. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 23:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
I want some back-history here. It seems to me that the Spelljammer stuff (hereinafter SJ) is polarizing. And I cant figure out why. In a world where no one sees anything wrong with Strong Magic, the ability to (rarely I admit) ascend to Godhood, and Planar/Astral travel
why do some folks gets riled up about Prime Material space travel??? To me, SJ should just be another one of the many fantastic things that can happen in the FR. Please enlighten me on the controversy. Thanks!
Won't go into the whole thing as I have on other threads, but one of the biggest things was how spelljammers in rules as written would destroy trade. That's why you will find me in a couple things around here discussing how to fix that. The quickest fix I came up with was to make leaving a world's atmosphere NOT be like a real world rocket. You can't leave in seconds or minutes. It could take days to leave the atmosphere. But, once in wildspace you travel much faster between worlds. This is of course a drastic change to what's been described, but it does handily fix a LOT of problems. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 01:07:37
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It's clear that the TSR Authors and staff thought of the Phlogiston as part of the Prime. All of the theories presented in the "Notes on the Creation of the Universe" on page 42 of the Lorebook of the Void shows that they clearly see the Flow and Spheres are two separate elements of the same thing (akin to the ocean and the land). Plus, here's Skip Williams in Dragon #175 said:
"The most straightforward reading of the Spelljammer material suggests to me that all the crystal spheres and the phlogiston that connects them are part of a single prime material plane, which makes the planar universe a very big place indeed."
That's even before Planescape was released, where they always refer to *THE* Prime. Not *A* Prime or Prime*S*.
I get that you feel it *should* be a separate plane, but they clearly planned for it not to be. Making it so is homebrew.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Outlander
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 04:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, a feature of the Prime is that it can reach the phlogiston. But the Flow was not the Prime, because it was entirely cut off from ALL other planes.
The phlogiston can't be in the same plane as crystal spheres, or divine influence would extend to there and other planes would be accessible from there.
Unless that's a property of the phlogiston (as in the substance), rather than a property of the region it occupies.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would also point out that if teleport can't be used to travel across planes, and you can't teleport from one crystal sphere to another, then it means those spheres are not on the same plane.
I can't find anything else about this from the original Spelljammer books beyond what I already cited about Teleport, but I can tell you for sure that in 5e, Teleport is a valid method to go between crystal spheres. Jeremy Crawford said as much in a video interview:
https://youtu.be/9JHyJj8C21c?t=2245
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It can't be a part of the Prime when it can't exist inside a sphere (which is the Prime!), has entirely different properties, has no access to any other planes, and when gods can't even grant spells to clerics there.
This is circular reasoning, or an empty argument at best. What's observed is that phlogiston dissipates in crystal spheres. To make an argument that this happens because the phlogiston is the stuff of a different plane, you'd have to establish in the first place that the phlogiston is the stuff of a different plane. It could be just as easily explained as being an anti-phlogiston property of the crystal spheres.
Additionally, according to page 9 of The Concordance of Arcane Space (regarding the topic of phlogiston's restrictions on otherwordly influence), "...this restriction definitely does not apply to priest spells of levels 1 and 2". The gods do have access; it's just weakened by the mysterious rainbow fluid.
Add in AuldDragon's points for good measure. Overall, the evidence is pretty solid at this point in favor of phlogiston being merely a substance that hinders interplanar influence, rather than a plane unto itself.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 06:01:50
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
It's clear that the TSR Authors and staff thought of the Phlogiston as part of the Prime. All of the theories presented in the "Notes on the Creation of the Universe" on page 42 of the Lorebook of the Void shows that they clearly see the Flow and Spheres are two separate elements of the same thing (akin to the ocean and the land). Plus, here's Skip Williams in Dragon #175 said:
"The most straightforward reading of the Spelljammer material suggests to me that all the crystal spheres and the phlogiston that connects them are part of a single prime material plane, which makes the planar universe a very big place indeed."
That's even before Planescape was released, where they always refer to *THE* Prime. Not *A* Prime or Prime*S*.
I get that you feel it *should* be a separate plane, but they clearly planned for it not to be. Making it so is homebrew.
Jeff
It's not the most straightforward reading when the properties of the two are wildly different.
And given that different spheres have literally different laws of physics, they can't be all one contiguous place. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 06:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
I can't find anything else about this from the original Spelljammer books beyond what I already cited about Teleport, but I can tell you for sure that in 5e, Teleport is a valid method to go between crystal spheres. Jeremy Crawford said as much in a video interview:
https://youtu.be/9JHyJj8C21c?t=2245
But it wasn't a valid method in 2E, when Spelljammer was first introduced. Page 82 of The Concordance of Arcane Space: "A character can teleport from one planet to another within a crystal sphere, but travel from one crystal sphere to another is impossible by means of this spell."
5E may have retconned that, but this is what was originally written.
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It can't be a part of the Prime when it can't exist inside a sphere (which is the Prime!), has entirely different properties, has no access to any other planes, and when gods can't even grant spells to clerics there.
This is circular reasoning, or an empty argument at best. What's observed is that phlogiston dissipates in crystal spheres. To make an argument that this happens because the phlogiston is the stuff of a different plane, you'd have to establish in the first place that the phlogiston is the stuff of a different plane. It could be just as easily explained as being an anti-phlogiston property of the crystal spheres.
There is nothing circular in pointing out the wildly different properties of the Flow and wildspace.
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
Additionally, according to page 9 of The Concordance of Arcane Space (regarding the topic of phlogiston's restrictions on otherwordly influence), "...this restriction definitely does not apply to priest spells of levels 1 and 2". The gods do have access; it's just weakened by the mysterious rainbow fluid.
Page 17: "A cleric receives his spells through the offices of his deity, and his deity's effectiveness ends at the crystal shell. The phlogiston is impenetrable to extra-dimensional magics, and as a result the "gods" and other powers have no sway there.
A cleric entering the Flow may use those spells he brought with him (with normal restrictions for the physical nature of phlogiston). However, a cleric may not regain spells above 2nd level while in the phlogiston. This is because he remains out of direct contact with his deity."
I believe it was Ed who later clarified that those lower-level spells can be generated by faith alone, and that's why they can be replenished in the Flow. Anything more powerful requires contact with the cleric's power.
Either way, it is explicit: the gods cannot reach into the Flow. Their power ends at the crystal shell, even if they are multispheric.
quote:
Originally posted by Outlander
Add in AuldDragon's points for good measure. Overall, the evidence is pretty solid at this point in favor of phlogiston being merely a substance that hinders interplanar influence, rather than a plane unto itself.
Actually, the evidence is stronger that it's not a plane at all. Extradimensional magics work on every other plane. The gods have influence on every other plane. Neither of these things applies to the Flow. Much like it is a place between spheres, the most logical conclusion is that it is also a place between planes. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 07:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not the most straightforward reading when the properties of the two are wildly different.
And given that different spheres have literally different laws of physics, they can't be all one contiguous place.
Different areas on various planes have different properties, different layers have different properties, and magic can easily mimic them, you can bleed over, etc. Different properties in different areas don't make it different planes. Phlogiston and Wildspace are different mediums, much like deep beneath the ocean and high up in the air have different properties because they are different mediums.
Finally, you're arguing against what the authors clearly intended if not explicitly and simply stated; it was assumed and not seen as necessary as far as I can tell. Every single reference in Planescape refers to *THE* Prime; see for example the section on "Single Sphere Powers" in On Hallowed Ground. It's clearly talking about them all as a single collective place.
I get that you don't want it to be a singular Prime, and you have reasons that, for you, means there cannot be a singular Prime, but the authors who created and worked with it felt otherwise. It becomes Word of God; it is because they say it is so.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 07:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But it wasn't a valid method in 2E, when Spelljammer was first introduced. Page 82 of The Concordance of Arcane Space: "A character can teleport from one planet to another within a crystal sphere, but travel from one crystal sphere to another is impossible by means of this spell."
Concordance of Arcane Space, page 9, indicates you can use a Teleport spell to exit a sphere. The distinction seems to me to be that the distance between spheres is too vast, or that breaching two sphere walls is too much.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is nothing circular in pointing out the wildly different properties of the Flow and wildspace.
But *you* are deciding that this means they are different planes. There is no material that says this is an inherent property that means something must be a different plane. You've created the reasoning that you are then using to distinguish planes. It's still a fallacy.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I believe it was Ed who later clarified that those lower-level spells can be generated by faith alone, and that's why they can be replenished in the Flow. Anything more powerful requires contact with the cleric's power.
Either way, it is explicit: the gods cannot reach into the Flow. Their power ends at the crystal shell, even if they are multispheric.
AD&D 1e specified that 1st and 2nd level spells were gained through faith alone, and this was carried through to 2e even if it wasn't explicitly stated.
Powers can still send an avatar, or a more powerful investiture that can grant spells, into the Flow as the Mulhorandi and Untheric powers did. Theoretically any priest in the flow at that time would have been able to gain spells, although it is possible it would have been limited by range; there's a lot we don't know; the specific properties and how they operate are still fairly obscure to us, in large part because we really don't need to know to run the setting. We do also know that spheres can be sealed off to deities too, and there can be other properties of the planes in various places, such as The Grey on the Astral touching Athas and the Shadow Realm in...either the Ethereal or Astral touching Cerilia (can't recall at the moment the details). There's lots of things that can vary from place to place without us knowing all the details without making all these things different planes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, the evidence is stronger that it's not a plane at all. Extradimensional magics work on every other plane. The gods have influence on every other plane. Neither of these things applies to the Flow. Much like it is a place between spheres, the most logical conclusion is that it is also a place between planes.
This is not true. Extradimensional spaces do not function on the Astral either (see A Guide to the Astral Plane p.19), whereas Conjuration/Summoning magic does work (unless summoning something from the Elemental planes), albeit with a flat failure chance. This doesn't make the Astral "not a plane."
There are tons of other ways besides even what you've stated that someone could homebrew the cosmology of the Prime even without changing the mechanics or invalidating hardly any of the material, but it would still be homebrew. What the people who designed and worked with it intended is clear, and as a fictional setting of their creation, it overrides any other reasonable interpretations of the material.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 13:52:05
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not the most straightforward reading when the properties of the two are wildly different.
And given that different spheres have literally different laws of physics, they can't be all one contiguous place.
Different areas on various planes have different properties, different layers have different properties, and magic can easily mimic them, you can bleed over, etc. Different properties in different areas don't make it different planes. Phlogiston and Wildspace are different mediums, much like deep beneath the ocean and high up in the air have different properties because they are different mediums.
Finally, you're arguing against what the authors clearly intended if not explicitly and simply stated; it was assumed and not seen as necessary as far as I can tell. Every single reference in Planescape refers to *THE* Prime; see for example the section on "Single Sphere Powers" in On Hallowed Ground. It's clearly talking about them all as a single collective place.
I get that you don't want it to be a singular Prime, and you have reasons that, for you, means there cannot be a singular Prime, but the authors who created and worked with it felt otherwise. It becomes Word of God; it is because they say it is so.
Jeff
I've never said there wasn't a singular Prime. I've said two things: the Flow is not the Prime, and the various campaign worlds occupy their own layers of the Prime. Like many other planes, the Prime has layers.
It's the only way that everything makes sense. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 14:15:15
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But it wasn't a valid method in 2E, when Spelljammer was first introduced. Page 82 of The Concordance of Arcane Space: "A character can teleport from one planet to another within a crystal sphere, but travel from one crystal sphere to another is impossible by means of this spell."
Concordance of Arcane Space, page 9, indicates you can use a Teleport spell to exit a sphere. The distinction seems to me to be that the distance between spheres is too vast, or that breaching two sphere walls is too much.
It also says that in the section about crossing sphere walls, implying that proximity is required.
Really, though, it seems to be one of the many oversights/contradictions in Spelljammer lore.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is nothing circular in pointing out the wildly different properties of the Flow and wildspace.
But *you* are deciding that this means they are different planes. There is no material that says this is an inherent property that means something must be a different plane. You've created the reasoning that you are then using to distinguish planes. It's still a fallacy.
I'm looking at the fact that different planes have different properties -- it's one of the most basic things about the planes. When every single inch of the Flow shares the same properties, and these properties wildly differ from the Prime, the only possible conclusion is that the Flow is not the Prime.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
Honestly, I don't see how the argument can be made that the Flow and the Prime are one when the two are so very different from each other. It's like arguing that the planes of Radiance and Earth are the same place.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I believe it was Ed who later clarified that those lower-level spells can be generated by faith alone, and that's why they can be replenished in the Flow. Anything more powerful requires contact with the cleric's power.
Either way, it is explicit: the gods cannot reach into the Flow. Their power ends at the crystal shell, even if they are multispheric.
AD&D 1e specified that 1st and 2nd level spells were gained through faith alone, and this was carried through to 2e even if it wasn't explicitly stated.
Powers can still send an avatar, or a more powerful investiture that can grant spells, into the Flow as the Mulhorandi and Untheric powers did. Theoretically any priest in the flow at that time would have been able to gain spells, although it is possible it would have been limited by range; there's a lot we don't know; the specific properties and how they operate are still fairly obscure to us, in large part because we really don't need to know to run the setting. We do also know that spheres can be sealed off to deities too, and there can be other properties of the planes in various places, such as The Grey on the Astral touching Athas and the Shadow Realm in...either the Ethereal or Astral touching Cerilia (can't recall at the moment the details). There's lots of things that can vary from place to place without us knowing all the details without making all these things different planes.
I'm not seeing the relevance, here. It's still explicit Spelljammer lore that divine influence doesn't exist in the Flow. No deity has influence there, even Ptah, who is a deific oddball in having influence in quote "all spheres."
And we're not talking about an isolated area of the Flow -- we're talking about all of it. It's not a local condition that the gods can't touch it, it's part of the inherent nature of the entire place.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, the evidence is stronger that it's not a plane at all. Extradimensional magics work on every other plane. The gods have influence on every other plane. Neither of these things applies to the Flow. Much like it is a place between spheres, the most logical conclusion is that it is also a place between planes.
This is not true. Extradimensional spaces do not function on the Astral either (see A Guide to the Astral Plane p.19), whereas Conjuration/Summoning magic does work (unless summoning something from the Elemental planes), albeit with a flat failure chance. This doesn't make the Astral "not a plane."
No, but it does reinforce the Flow not being the Prime, where extradimensional spaces and conjuration/summoning work without issue.
I consider the Flow to be a space between planes because it's cut off from other planes and from the gods, and because it can't be reached from anywhere but the Prime. It's either its own unique plane or it's not a plane at all.
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
There are tons of other ways besides even what you've stated that someone could homebrew the cosmology of the Prime even without changing the mechanics or invalidating hardly any of the material, but it would still be homebrew. What the people who designed and worked with it intended is clear, and as a fictional setting of their creation, it overrides any other reasonable interpretations of the material.
Jeff
I agree, it's quite clear: the Flow was intended to be separate from the Prime. They wouldn't have gone to great lengths to make it different if it's the same. Nothing changes the mechanics or invalidates anything to say it's different. To the contrary; saying it's the Prime means you now have to explain how part of the Prime is separated from and wildly different from the rest, and why part of it can't exist within itself.
The simplest explanation, and the only one that fits every fact in all the printed Spelljammer material, is that the Flow is not the Prime. It's not homebrew, it's logic. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 19:50:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm looking at the fact that different planes have different properties -- it's one of the most basic things about the planes. When every single inch of the Flow shares the same properties, and these properties wildly differ from the Prime, the only possible conclusion is that the Flow is not the Prime.
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.
Honestly, I don't see how the argument can be made that the Flow and the Prime are one when the two are so very different from each other. It's like arguing that the planes of Radiance and Earth are the same place.
Again, you are establishing the "rule" that you are using to contradict what the authors clearly intended. Feel free to cite specifics that establish different properties must make different planes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not seeing the relevance, here. It's still explicit Spelljammer lore that divine influence doesn't exist in the Flow. No deity has influence there, even Ptah, who is a deific oddball in having influence in quote "all spheres."
And we're not talking about an isolated area of the Flow -- we're talking about all of it. It's not a local condition that the gods can't touch it, it's part of the inherent nature of the entire place.
No, you're completely misinterpreting how it works; granted the wording is indeed muddled. There is a barrier that prevents planar access. There isn't a ban on divine power. These are two very different things. Priests can still use all of their magic if they have already memorized their spells, and they can store extra power in an Icon. Turning undead which is described as channeling divine power still works, as do granted powers like those of Specialty Priests and Paladins. Magic of a planar nature besides just Conjuration/Summoning magic fails to work( extradimensional spells and spells that access the Demiplane of Shadow, for example). However, undead with ties to the Negative Energy Plane can still drain, and you can regain temporary access to extradimensional items with Wish and Limited Wish. Planar creatures can be summoned in Wildspace and brought into the Flow, and we know deities have sent spell-granting avatars into the Flow as well. As was stated earlier in the thread, Tymora's Luck, *by the designer of Spelljammer himself* clearly has deities talking about going to see spheres *in* the phlogiston (without expanding upon it, but it clearly indicates there is a way).
Again, I get you don't like it, and you are more than welcome to change it for yourself, but the designer himself didn't see it as an issue. This isn't a rules mistake or an editorial oversight, it is specifically a narrative cosmological design choice.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, but it does reinforce the Flow not being the Prime, where extradimensional spaces and conjuration/summoning work without issue.
I consider the Flow to be a space between planes because it's cut off from other planes and from the gods, and because it can't be reached from anywhere but the Prime. It's either its own unique plane or it's not a plane at all.
This is still more "I don't want it to be the way it is stated, so I am creating rules to force my view to be true." The designers clearly felt you could have two such different areas on the singular Prime Material Plane, ergo they can in fact coexist. The *why* is less important in this case than the *is* but it would be easy enough to come up with reasons for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree, it's quite clear: the Flow was intended to be separate from the Prime. They wouldn't have gone to great lengths to make it different if it's the same. Nothing changes the mechanics or invalidates anything to say it's different. To the contrary; saying it's the Prime means you now have to explain how part of the Prime is separated from and wildly different from the rest, and why part of it can't exist within itself.
You actually don't have to explain it though. And if you really want to? Spelljammer has four answers you can choose from, or you can make your own. See the sidebar that I mentioned upthread.
Most things in D&D don't have the explanations you want, but it's okay. It just works. Why is there magic? Why does magic work the way it does rather than another way? Why do planets have normal gravity but ships have gravity planes? Why are these gravity planes normal gravity?
They just do; they are basic assumptions from which other things are derived, but they are still basic assumptions. So is "the flow and all the crystal spheres are one single Prime."
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The simplest explanation, and the only one that fits every fact in all the printed Spelljammer material, is that the Flow is not the Prime. It's not homebrew, it's logic.
In summation: You're making an argument in which you have assumed certain things to be true, which are not necessarily true. It is akin to the ontological logical arguments about God's existence, which hinge on certain assumptions being true (i.e. "God is perfect; it is more perfect to exist than not exist; therefore God exists"). If those assumptions are unproven (i.e., is it actually more perfect to exist than not exist? Is God perfect?), then the ontological argument breaks down.
You have made the assumption that the Flow and Wildspace, being two very different mediums, cannot exist on the same plane, ergo, they must be different planes (or have a similar disconnected element). But this is an assumption *you* have made, and one that is most importantly *directly contradicted literally by the very people who created it.* Your assumption is false empirically false, so your logical argument breaks down.
You can still homebrew it! You can still say "I prefer it this way, so for my home campaign, this assumption is true." But the published campaign, and the canon (for the time of course), is that they can and do coexist, so your logical argument for how the canon should be seen, is fallacious.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 20:38:11
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| -I only have cursory knowledge of specific Spelljammer concepts as opposed to general broad understanding of it, but I never assumed that Phlogiston was a different plane. I don't think that wouldn't make much sense, really. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 22:15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I only have cursory knowledge of specific Spelljammer concepts as opposed to general broad understanding of it, but I never assumed that Phlogiston was a different plane. I don't think that wouldn't make much sense, really.
It makes a lot more sense than it having wildly different properties and yet it being exactly the same place as on the other side of a hard barrier. It also makes more sense, considering the designers went out of their way to devote page count to describing it and how it was different. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2022 : 00:33:28
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-It's basically the "stuff" that makes up the universe, that fills the gaps between Crystal Spheres. How would it exist on some other planar wavelength (how I conceptualize Planes) that is not the Material Plane filling those gaps? What would exist in those gaps then? I could get behind that if Crystal Spheres were more conceptual than physical, but in Spelljammer stuff I know there are literal physical boundaries that can be actually touched and seen.
-I get that the physics are different in some way/shape/form, but in a world with magic, stuff like that does happen on the Material Plane too. There are spots that are consecrated or desecrated, spots where Planar boundaries are weaker and weird things happen, and other magical oddities. Wouldn't that also be possible in Phlogiston as well, since that it connects between Crystal Spheres and would be subject and influenced by all that kind of weirdness? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Outlander
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2022 : 00:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It makes a lot more sense than it having wildly different properties and yet it being exactly the same place as on the other side of a hard barrier. It also makes more sense, considering the designers went out of their way to devote page count to describing it and how it was different.
But wouldn't this literally apply to, say... different real environments?
In a spaceship, sound can travel; there's air, and pressure, and a whole host of other things.
In the vacuum of space itself, none of those things are present. It certainly feels completely different- your voice can no longer travel through it, and signals can travel theoretically forever in the absence of air- but that doesn't make it a new plane of existence.
Likewise, being deep underwater on a planet has its own unique traits. You can't see very far; sound travels far better, and being on a planet, there's gravity all around you, pulling you down. If you're more than a little deep, radio waves can't get through to you at all. There's even a clear dividing line between the underwater and the air above, where a ton of properties change as soon as you hit the surface. If you take water out of the ocean, it dissipates via evaporation.
That doesn't make the ocean a new plane of existence; it just makes it a different place.
I fail to see how phlogiston couldn't be in the same boat. The difference in experience between being underwater and being in the vacuum of space would be vast, but they're certainly part of the same plane. Why would the same assumption not be made for the phlogiston, given the evidence it does have for being part of the Prime Material? Could it not be that Teleport being able to cross one crystal sphere, but not two, is a quantitative limitation of the spell (like trying to send a message to someone in your local swimming pool vs. the Marianas Trench)? If it is a qualitative limitation, one would have to explain why Teleport suddenly gains the ability to cross a planar boundary for this specific purpose, and no other. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2022 : 01:51:28
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| Folks, I apologize for my part in this extended tangent. I'm done. We're going nowhere here and circling over the same points isn't accomplishing anything. |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2022 : 14:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Why do planets have normal gravity but ships have gravity planes? Why are these gravity planes normal gravity?
I was wondering about that. I am not familiar with the universe at this scale, but planets are spherical, and don't have an up or down, right? So no official explanation has ever been given as to why planets behave the way you'd expect one to, rather than according to the strange rules that affect ship in Spelljammer? Do we have any information about how intermediary bodies behave? I think the Tears of Selūne behave like small planets for instance: is there no spelljamming ship of size comparable to the Eye of the Sky, to compare how gravity works on each? |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 05:28:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Why do planets have normal gravity but ships have gravity planes? Why are these gravity planes normal gravity?
I was wondering about that. I am not familiar with the universe at this scale, but planets are spherical, and don't have an up or down, right? So no official explanation has ever been given as to why planets behave the way you'd expect one to, rather than according to the strange rules that affect ship in Spelljammer? Do we have any information about how intermediary bodies behave? I think the Tears of Selūne behave like small planets for instance: is there no spelljamming ship of size comparable to the Eye of the Sky, to compare how gravity works on each?
Ultimately, gravity works the way it most makes sense. An oblong asteroid like Bral? Plane. Planet like Toril? Standard planetary gravity. An octahedron? All faces will have gravity pulling "down." It's not specified, but generally it's clear the shape dictates gravity.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 17:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Ultimately, gravity works the way it most makes sense. An oblong asteroid like Bral? Plane. Planet like Toril? Standard planetary gravity. An octahedron? All faces will have gravity pulling "down." It's not specified, but generally it's clear the shape dictates gravity.
Jeff
Thanks! What about orbits? Is there any kind of spooky action at a distance? Does it also depend on the shape of the objects? It seems that moons behave as predictably as one might expect, but I'm not finding any clear information on whether the planet orbit the Sun, at what speed, or how that works... Also, given that the creators had to make a fantasy version of celestial mechanics, I'm surprised that they didn't have fun with epicycles! |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 19:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
Thanks! What about orbits? Is there any kind of spooky action at a distance? Does it also depend on the shape of the objects? It seems that moons behave as predictably as one might expect, but I'm not finding any clear information on whether the planet orbit the Sun, at what speed, or how that works... Also, given that the creators had to make a fantasy version of celestial mechanics, I'm surprised that they didn't have fun with epicycles!
Orbits are wholly at the discretion of the DM, basically. Want all the planets to move prograde? Sure! Retrograde? Sure! Alternating? Sure! Fixed in space with no movement? Sure! Random movement? Sure! Way faster or slower than they should? Sure!
Epicycles are certainly possible, too, but it would likely not have much *mechanic* effect on the planetary movement chart simply because the variance in that movement wouldn't be enough to show there. But it would still be a fine narrative thing.
And that's just the "normal" systems. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Spelljammer Polarization
