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aragorn II
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
 Posted - 12 May 2004 : 17:05:30
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Is Baldur's Gate canon or isn't it? Please, whatever you feel, give proof. I personally would like if it was, but it probably isn't.
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Edited by - Alaundo on 12 May 2004 23:03:37
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 18:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by aragorn II
Is Baldur's Gate canon or isn't it? Please, whatever you feel, give proof. I personally would like if it was, but it probably isn't.
The games? Then that's hard to say. However, Ed just posted that his Volo's Guide is canon. And as far as WOTC says the BG novels are canon since they are listed on the WOTC timeline as taking place in 1368 and 1369 and it doesn't list them as apocryphal. Also there is two Dragon articles (one with stats from the novels, and the other is a 3e Bhaalspawn template) that are canon because Dragon has always been canon for FR. Also there is another link to the mailing list from 2000 where a WOTC worker says yes any thing with the FR logo is canon to a point.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/fictionlist
http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0003E&L=realms-l&P=R12457
So to all those who say no the sourcebook and novels are not canon, show me concrete evidence to prove you are right, besides the "It's not listed in any of the 3e books," arguement you keep falling back on. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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aragorn II
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 19:12:10
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| I am sorry. I should have clarified what I meant. I meant are the GAMES canon. Whoops! |
There can be only one. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2004 : 20:04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by aragorn II
I am sorry. I should have clarified what I meant. I meant are the GAMES canon. Whoops!
Ah then as I said that's hard to say. :)
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2004 : 05:20:02
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If you are meaning the events in the timeline of the BG game, then I would argue not.
The whole storyline is based upon an upheaval of the Iron Throne and its top members. Yet no mention of Sarevok or the doppelganger overthrow exists outside of the game and the novel. Check the 2E game sourcebook Cloak & Dagger for the hierarchy of the Iron Throne…not a word is mentioned about him or any of those other “top” members who appear in the game. I once posted this query to Sean Reynolds on his message board and he basically said that where PC/video games are concerned they (PC game developers) won’t always take storyline / timeline stuff into account in order to make the game fun (fun according to them I guess  ).
But then the fact that the game has became an official FR novel raises more questions about what can and cannot be considered canon.
So if you say, well PC games are not canon, but books are….well BG is a book (as is BG2) and has the official FR logo on it. Both book and game deal with follow up events from another book (Avatar series) which was also made into a PnP accessory (Avatar modules). So however you define canon it seems that BG remains a shadowy enigma  . To me it just shows the inconsideration to detail of the developers on both fronts. The best examples of good crossover writing still remain the original gold box series, which helped define the realm and complimented PnP and novels.
The default answer is of course….if you want to use it then it is…if you don’t then it is not.
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 13 May 2004 07:44:48 |
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EcThelion
Learned Scribe
Norway
323 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2004 : 08:57:58
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It is cannon if you want it to be cannon, as I get it.
Apparently the DM can decide wheter it's going to be cannon or not. So there. Your the man of the hour. |
Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P |
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aragorn II
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 19:01:33
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| Is there really a Demogorgon, Prince of Demons and is there really a towncalled Ulgoth's Beard? |
There can be only one. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 22:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by aragorn II
Is there really a Demogorgon, Prince of Demons and is there really a towncalled Ulgoth's Beard?
Yes to the first, not sure to the second. Demogorgon is quite old-I remember references to him in the 1e DMG. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 22:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Demogorgon is quite old-I remember references to him in the 1e DMG.
Ah, the Prince of Demons, written up in the old Monster Manual by Gary Gygax if I recall correctly. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2004 : 22:33:53
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Demogorgon is quite old-I remember references to him in the 1e DMG.
Ah, the Prince of Demons, written up in the old Monster Manual by Gary Gygax if I recall correctly.
Who else would have done it back then? |
Edited by - Arivia on 27 May 2004 22:34:13 |
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aragorn II
Learned Scribe
USA
101 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2004 : 18:58:51
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| Would the Black Talon and the Chilll really have worked together? |
There can be only one. |
Edited by - aragorn II on 01 Jun 2004 18:59:29 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 02:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Yes to the first, not sure to the second. Demogorgon is quite old-I remember references to him in the 1e DMG.
Also if you dig through the 1e FR box set, Moruene, one of Eltan's commanders of the Flaming Fist knows Demogorgon's TRUE NAME and has it in her possession! Now that scares me! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 04:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Yes to the first, not sure to the second. Demogorgon is quite old-I remember references to him in the 1e DMG.
Also if you dig through the 1e FR box set, Moruene, one of Eltan's commanders of the Flaming Fist knows Demogorgon's TRUE NAME and has it in her possession! Now that scares me!
And I'd presume this line was dropped along the way... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 06:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Also if you dig through the 1e FR box set, Moruene, one of Eltan's commanders of the Flaming Fist knows Demogorgon's TRUE NAME and has it in her possession! Now that scares me!
And I'd presume this line was dropped along the way...
I see no reason why she wouldn't have it still.... Eltan and the Flaming Fist is still massively overpowered in level's, wealth, and magical items..... Even back in 1e and 2e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2004 : 20:38:45
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I am unsure as to whether it is canon or not.
Either way though, it is in my game. Of course I altered a few of the events to what "would" have happened (I did a lot of talking out loud in that game!).
As for the Town of Ulgoth's beard, well, if there isn't anything saying it doesn't exist, why not? Really, I doubt that they have listed each and every town in faerun. There are hamlets and villages scattered all over the place with neither name, nor mention in the books. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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EcThelion
Learned Scribe
Norway
323 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 14:06:32
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quote:
I am unsure as to whether it is canon or not.
If the DM *wants* it to be Canon, then it *is* canon. And if the DM *doesn't* want it to be canon, then it *isn't* canon... get it? |
Ec'Thelion, formerly known as Forgotten One, now known as Ec'Thelion the Overpowered.
Currently not all that active. I'm preoccupied with Warcraft III for the moment. Bite me :P |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 14:14:40
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quote:
Originally posted by EcThelion
quote:
I am unsure as to whether it is canon or not.
If the DM *wants* it to be Canon, then it *is* canon. And if the DM *doesn't* want it to be canon, then it *isn't* canon... get it?
Is this just for Baldur's Gate? Where did you get this information that only the DM can decide what is canon? Was it on the WOTC boards? Or in the Ed Greenwood thread here? |
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Tethtoril
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 15:23:19
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Please let us try not to be too confrontational to one another. Include smilies to break up your posts if what is being written is direct and could be taken in several ways. I really hate jabbing with my staff, but I do have a long reach.  |
Tethtoril
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 16:37:35
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Lack of sourcebook reference is not a good or conclusive argument -- most novels aren't rereferenced either.
Rich Baker has deliberately hedged the point. (Not a criticism.)
In late TSR, Realms brand manager Jim Butler said that everything with the Realms logo is canonical.
Steven Schend has recently said that *wasn't* the policy during his run, and that the novels may not be canonical either.
Here, Drew Karpshyn said "Because of our multiple endings, the BG games can't be considered "official" in the FR world. However, the novels (including the upcoming TOB novel - another free plug for me!) are considered canon."quote:
Originally posted by EcThelion
If the DM *wants* it to be Canon, then it *is* canon. And if the DM *doesn't* want it to be canon, then it *isn't* canon... get it?
'Canon' means the material that some authority -- in this discussion, Wizards of the Coast -- judges to be part of the continuity such that future material shouldn't contradict it. It's just confusing to stretch the same term to refer to what you do in your campaign. |
Edited by - Faraer on 14 Jun 2004 16:40:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2004 : 16:55:48
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| So far as I know, it's not canon... Magazine articles, modules, sourcebooks, the old comics, and most of the novels are. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jun 2004 17:01:12 |
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Durak
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 13:11:12
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I havent read the BG Novels. But i think they tell how Xviv Banesson comes about??. Havent come across any lore on him yet, mostly all on Fzoul.
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I take the theory that the game is basically a module where anything can happen. So isnt really Canon.
And the canon part is magazine articles in Dragon or in the BG novels or in the FR Main books.
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Was it BG itself that came up with the idea of the bane children and the method he could return? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 13:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Durak
I havent read the BG Novels. But i think they tell how Xviv Banesson comes about??. Havent come across any lore on him yet, mostly all on Fzoul.
It does? I thought the novels focused on Bhaal. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 14:55:05
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I read all three Baldur¡¦s Gate books and they only deal with the Bhaalspawn offspring and follow the main PC RPG campaign quite directly. So directly in fact (none of the side quests and very few of the NPC allies show up) that the books themselves are quite short when compared with other FR novels.
I did not read Prince of Lies or The Trial of Cyric, but I believe it is during that period that Xvim is dealt with isn't it? I have seen him discussed in The Ruins of Zhentil Keep accessory, but to my knowledge there is no mention of him in the BG series (PC games or novels).
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 18 Jun 2004 14:59:56 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 16:03:24
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| Thanks Chyron for the clarification. |
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Durak
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2004 : 14:17:10
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Ach, sorry about that i got confused with Bhaal and Bane.
You think i would of remembered the expansion was called Throne of Bhaal :(
grrr
Any where i said Bane in my post except with xvim i meant bhaal.
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Right i will have to look up xmim (however hes spelt. And see them 2 books Chyron mentioned.
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The whole god things got me so confused on which dead god is alive again. So ithought i when i heard of a baneson it was the "there can only be one" survivor of the bhaal children. Logically ( to me :) ) i thought then he was the character mentioned in the books.
If only i had noticed that it was Bane not Bhaal.
Was the The Ruins of Zhentil Keep accessory around the same time as the Baldurs gate series? - i will check a product timeline.
OKay checked a timline.
1368 Baldurs Gate and (Prince of lies(Something about Cyric and Xvimlar mentioned and the keep getting destroyed))
both happen.
1369 Baldurs Gate 2, Tymoras Luck (Xvim is mentioned)
I probably got confused about this time and merged the two into one.
Note to Self: Re-read what you post |
Edited by - Durak on 21 Jun 2004 15:34:46 |
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Lucius
Seeker
98 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2004 : 23:07:00
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| Hmm, so Baldur's Gate isn't officially canon. Then what of the other Forgotten Realms games? Neverwinter Nights? Icewind Dale? |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2004 : 15:10:23
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Vendui!
Regarding the games, well, I'd say they are as much canon when they refer to places, villages and cities (as long as there are no contradicting things in print). Example given, there is actually a Renal Bloodscalp mentioned in Cloak & Dagger, so he's defo canon. Nashkel and other places are listed as well, so no problem here either. That gnoll fortress where the witch was kept is certainly a thing the designers created and which wasn't there before. But that's something I can happily live with as well.
It IS a bit different with the bhaalspawnies though, since most of these high-level evil doers have not appeared in any other sourcebook. Thus, I'd only use them as "canon" if they make a cameo appearance such as Irae T'sarran (another adventure character - from the City of the Spider Queen campaign). That is not to say that the Melissans and Sarevoks do not exist, but I would be hesitant to use them as full blooded Realmsians.
Of course, the whole BG I to BG II ToB plot makes a good background for an entire campaign, especially if the players have never tried their luck on the BG games. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Baldur's Gate: Canon or not?
