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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 19:43:59
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I'm sure many of us read the Dragonlance novels. The main novels, possibly also some or all of the following series and anthologies.
And some of us probably bought the setting rulebooks, adventures, etc.
But who actually played Dragonlance? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 20:17:20
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So, I don't have a horse in this race.
I don't play 5e, and I don't buy their products. All I have is my thoughts regarding their products.
Which have all been really negative, and they get further amplified by current leaders in charge telling me my lore and canon don't mean s**t to them (waaaay paraphrasing).
That said, Spelljammer has been dead in the water for a full 30 years. I truly don't care, at all, what they do with it. My friends and I bought and played with the stuff, just using it to make our own ships to fly around the Realms, and go to the moon and have battles with whatever we pulled from the Spelljammer monster manual, and set up a base on the moon-that we promptly never dealt with again once the DM who ran all that stuff moved away.
I know someone previously mentioned about not calling in the previous writers to give their input on this, or DL.
Well, Weis & Hickman are writing novels to go along with it, so presumably, there will be some cohesion to it.
I never played DL myself; but we bought all the stuff because we bought every. single. novel. More than anything, I think that's how DL made it's money. Will I be highly critical of whatever 5e does to bastardize Krynn? Of course, because of course they will.
But to my former point; all the game designers from the stuff in the 80s are pushing into 60s and older. I get why a company doesn't go back to them anymore. I'm not saying they must be put to pasture or euthanized! But to keep the company going forward...I can see why they won't go back. Which makes me sad, I'd love to have had (like all the rest of you), the people who made everything awesome from 2nd through 3e still be there with a voice, and for their work to still matter. Because it doesn't seem so.
I'll just be watching this with an eye towards 'what'd they screw up....' and that's all it matters to me. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 00:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
My guess, phlogiston is still used as a word but Terran folks just never realized its actually an extent of the Astral Plane. This way, contradictions can be handwaived away. The flammability issue will be the only thing I wonder how they will handle.
More than that. Extradimensional spaces not working. Conjurations not working. No access to your god. It was a good bit different. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 13:26:55
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| Looks like it's based on Plane Above, I really dislike that book, it does not follow previous lore about the Astral plane. It would be simpler and less continuity breaking if they made phlogiston a part of the Ethereal, there you have infinite possibilities and border areas can have any specific planar traits they need. The Astral is a timeless void, it's supposed to be the least accessible place. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 14:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Looks like it's based on Plane Above, I really dislike that book, it does not follow previous lore about the Astral plane. It would be simpler and less continuity breaking if they made phlogiston a part of the Ethereal, there you have infinite possibilities and border areas can have any specific planar traits they need. The Astral is a timeless void, it's supposed to be the least accessible place.
While I'm not digging it as a retcon, I think that -- depending on how they do it -- making spelljammer a planar thing will solve some of the issues from the original material. They can entirely dispense with the phlogiston and its issues, they can get rid of the potentially setting-breaking elements of spelljamming, and making it planar will make things easier on the people that never could accept that arcane space was different from real space.
It all depends on how they execute it.
Also, I think making it planar is a step in the direction of Planescape -- I think we'll see a few other Planescape elements pop up in Spelljammer, and that it's laying the groundwork for Planescape. Which also would make sense; once Planescape came out, it made Spelljammer kind of a oddball thing (more than it already was). A lot of people looked at both, ignored the space exploration aspect of Spelljammer, and thought "why muck about with space when planar travel is quicker, easier, and gives just as many possibilities than space travel?"
(I'm also thinking they're going to draw liberally from original Spelljammer stuff while rebuilding it from the ground up. This will be, I expect, a reboot and not a continuation) |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2022 : 22:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Looks like it's based on Plane Above, I really dislike that book, it does not follow previous lore about the Astral plane. It would be simpler and less continuity breaking if they made phlogiston a part of the Ethereal, there you have infinite possibilities and border areas can have any specific planar traits they need. The Astral is a timeless void, it's supposed to be the least accessible place.
Making it the Ethereal Plane rather than the Astral would certainly have been a great nod to the pulp fiction/sci-fi/horror roots of the game.
“An ethereal sea reaching over the whole world” - Jules Verne
The Other Gods (and Various Ethereal Effusions) - H.P. Lovecraft
Another swing... and miss... from WotC/Hasbro. |
- Ryan |
Edited by - Rymac on 24 Apr 2022 22:31:30 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2022 : 22:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
according to https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-spelljammer-phlogiston-astral-sea/
wildspace will gradually fade into the Astral Sea
phlogiston and the crystal spheres won't exist
whatever, I ignore 90% of new stuff anyway
That honestly disappoints, because that leaves a lot of the problems with Spelljammer in place.
And if they're leaving those issues in place, I expect they'll likely keep the problem of "your butt touched the seat for 30 seconds; no matter how many spells you had, they're gone now!" |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 01:09:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
according to https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-spelljammer-phlogiston-astral-sea/
wildspace will gradually fade into the Astral Sea
phlogiston and the crystal spheres won't exist
whatever, I ignore 90% of new stuff anyway
That honestly disappoints, because that leaves a lot of the problems with Spelljammer in place.
And if they're leaving those issues in place, I expect they'll likely keep the problem of "your butt touched the seat for 30 seconds; no matter how many spells you had, they're gone now!"
Bear in mind, they've already released helm rules for 5e. Granted, I think they need work, but they're in various sources already. That being said, they can use this product to make those helms "special" and make the average helms fit a standard campaign better. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Quickleaf
Seeker
99 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2022 : 18:43:45
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Some of the fun oddities of Spelljammer were also... tricky to make enjoyable for players, specifically "no access to your god in wildspace", spelljammer helms sucking your spell slots, and phlogiston being abundant and explosive.
Speaking as a long-time Planescape fan (which has ALL the little tweaks to cleric magic and magic item plusses), I think that first idea is a good one to jettison for playability. Maybe use it as a spice in a Far Realms leaning adventure, but not as a regular facet of play.
Chris Perkins mentioned that the 5e version of spelljammer helms will be like attuned magic items, and will not drain spell slots. So that's a +1 for playability.
As for the phlogiston and crystal spheres... I think a more nuanced design move than "throw it out" would be to have the phlogiston sort of generating/accumulating about the crystal spheres, and then trailing off in wispy rivers to nearby asteroids, moons, and planetary bodies. So it's not EVERYWHERE, but there are still rainbow rivers of phlogiston you can sail just like a sailor would take advantage of certain currents.
I'm actually not opposed to the Astral Plane integration. My interpretation of it will be that within the bodies of a planetary system (such as Realmspace or Greyspace) there is wildspace, but the further you move to the edges of that system, that's when you begin crossing into the Astral Plane. It's a fuzzy boundary and not necessarily a linear one, much in the same way that the Ethereal Plane has a "deep ethereal" and a "border ethereal."
I know that Spelljammer has a wealth of material and it did not need this change. But the Astral Plane was always minimally covered (both in AD&D A Guide to Astral Plane and in 4e The Plane Above) and never quite seemed to congeal its identity, at least IMO. I think this change enhances the Astral Plane's interest and playability, which is great. If they do it right, I think cross-pollinating Spelljammer with bits of the Astral could mutually reinforce the themes of each. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2022 : 02:13:03
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| It would be nice to be able to just buy the Spelljammer books, rather than having to purchase the whole kit. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2022 : 02:37:01
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It would be nice to be able to just buy the Spelljammer books, rather than having to purchase the whole kit.
And that's where they get'cha.
Edit: It seems that it's not so much space that has been made to end and blend into the astral- but that the phlogiston is replaced by the astral. Seems.. flawless? |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 28 Apr 2022 05:45:57 |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2022 : 11:47:53
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Until the book gets released, the D&D official Youtube channel has a campaign being broadcast, which might offer some info about the universe. It seems one of the PC to come is Minsc, who will be played by Jim Zub (who has been writing most of the Forgotten Realms recently, the ones about Minsc in particular), so I guess the canon order will be Mindbreaker, Baldur's Gate 3, Spelljammer/Legends of the Multiverse.
It also seems that the campaign will settle the question of whether Boo is actually a miniature giant space hamster, which I think is a mistake, as either answer would be boring (my personal theory is that Boo is not a miniature giant space hamster; it is actually a fire-breathing phase doppleganger giant space hamster, whose mind has been placed inside a miniature giant space hamster before being teleported to Toril ) |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2022 : 21:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
Edit: It seems that it's not so much space that has been made to end and blend into the astral- but that the phlogiston is replaced by the astral. Seems.. flawless?
It isn't flawless, and we don't know how they'll be handling it exactly. Unless they change helm rules from what currently exists, helms are too slow to get to the Astral Sea if it *only* replaces the Flow. My current guess is that ships can enter the Astral Sea even between planets.
And, of course, there are *massive* differences between the Flow and the Astral, but that's better kept to other discussion topics.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2022 : 00:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I'm sure many of us read the Dragonlance novels. The main novels, possibly also some or all of the following series and anthologies.
And some of us probably bought the setting rulebooks, adventures, etc.
But who actually played Dragonlance?
<raises hand>
Granted, it was back in the day when the first modules came out, where one would play a Companion of the Lance, but it wasn't too long after that where our DM had two of his five players running their characters throught the Test in Wayreth (and I was one of the two).
While I do like Dragonlance, I never got the impression that anything that player characters in Ansalon did actually mattered in the grand scheme of things. And the time of the Dragon Overlords was my "okay, I'm out" moment. After that, I would halfheartedly follow what was going on, but my interest was never really rekindled.
I have the Spelljammer boxed sets - the boxes are still in decent shape, and the contents are just this side of mint, but that speaks more to my players never being interested in the concept than anything else. When I run games in a published TSR/WotC setting these days, it's either the Realms or Birthright - I've precipitously lost interest in Ravenloft, never really cared about Eberron or Tal'Dorei/Wildemount, and most of the other settings tend to be niche enough to not garner any interest.
And...I'm worried they'll do to Dragonlance (and Spelljammer, for that matter) what they did to Ravenloft. When they (literally) dismembered the Core and tossed the domains hither and yon, turning it into "dark fantasy hellscape of the week" instead of Gothic horror, that was the signal that I should never assume that any respect will be given to these settings. I'm frankly surprised that the Realms has fared as well as it has.
- OMH |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2022 : 02:38:22
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I'm inclined to agree.
Dragonlance was entertaining reading. A memorable story. But once you know how it ends there seems to be little impetus for players to assume existing roles (or to invent new ones) while taking part in the core story itself. And if they're not part of the core story then they're basically "insignificant" in the grand story of the world they live in.
The Avatar series of modules were basically the same thing. Though at least they were only one story in a setting with countless other stories moving forward all the time. So once you've been railroaded through the story you still have a vibrant setting to explore and develop and adventure. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2022 : 17:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
As has been pointed out elsewhere, the Silvanesti are probably going to be neutered.
That has (arguably) already occurred, in the form of the minotaur invasion and the conquest of Silvanesti. Similar circumstances exist in Qualinesti, which is a magic-polluted, bandit-infested wasteland. Ansalon is not large enough to absorb the damage from WotC's "good ideas" the way Faerun managed to (even before the Second Sundering, there were still regions of the Realms that managed to hang onto the "essence of Greenwood", if you will). And I say this as someone who once had a near-pathological dislike of the 4th Edition Realms
WotC seems to be following a pattern, namely perform (seemingly) irrevocable and (unquestionably) detrimental changes to the very fabric of their intellectual properties, then make dubious changes in some instances to try and sew that fabric back together. It mostly succeeded with the Realms (I still have some issues, likely to no one's surprise). Ravenloft, pfft, forget it, I don't see how that technicolor yawn can be salvaged now. And while I confess I am curious as to what Dragonlance is going to look like, I'm not holding out a lot of hope that it will be given due diligence.
- OMH |
Edited by - Old Man Harpell on 09 May 2022 17:51:54 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2022 : 19:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
As has been pointed out elsewhere, the Silvanesti are probably going to be neutered.
That has (arguably) already occurred, in the form of the minotaur invasion and the conquest of Silvanesti. Similar circumstances exist in Qualinesti, which is a magic-polluted, bandit-infested wasteland. Ansalon is not large enough to absorb the damage from WotC's "good ideas" the way Faerun managed to (even before the Second Sundering, there were still regions of the Realms that managed to hang onto the "essence of Greenwood", if you will). And I say this as someone who once had a near-pathological dislike of the 4th Edition Realms
WotC seems to be following a pattern, namely perform (seemingly) irrevocable and (unquestionably) detrimental changes to the very fabric of their intellectual properties, then make dubious changes in some instances to try and sew that fabric back together. It mostly succeeded with the Realms (I still have some issues, likely to no one's surprise). Ravenloft, pfft, forget it, I don't see how that technicolor yawn can be salvaged now. And while I confess I am curious as to what Dragonlance is going to look like, I'm not holding out a lot of hope that it will be given due diligence.
- OMH
Its a tactic regularly employed the world over, especially by politicians.
Step 1 - Create a problem and create division among your group of followers to the point where subgroup A actively despises subgroup B.
Step 2 - Leave the problem to fester until people tire of the hatred and forget who caused the original problem or what the original problem was.
Step 3 - Solve the problem so that you can be hailed as heroes, watch as the subgroup's A and B reunite and the renewed interest causes an increase in the size of the original group of followers. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2022 : 19:56:35
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*sigh* Again with assuming malicious intent on WotC's part. Can we stop with the thing of assuming that a company that doesn't know your name is deliberately trying to piss you off? 
Just because you don't like a creative decision doesn't mean it's specifically targeting you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 14:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
*sigh* Again with assuming malicious intent on WotC's part. Can we stop with the thing of assuming that a company that doesn't know your name is deliberately trying to piss you off?
Just because you don't like a creative decision doesn't mean it's specifically targeting you.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't assume malicious intent in, well, pretty much any of these instances. In cases like the Dragon Overlords, for example, I'm sure the authors of that particular story line thought that the idea was neat, and I wouldn't be at all shocked to learn that a multitude of fans thought the same. I simply wasn't one of the multitudes.
Likewise, I'm sure that the individual who came up with the idea to dismember Ravenloft's Core domains and convert the setting from Gothic horror to "Dark Fantasy Hellscapes Of The Week" thought that they were doing the setting a service. I just happen to believe the opposite.
Odd as this may sound, it would be easier if it was a matter of malicious intent on WotC's part, because then I could at least get upset and/or offended, as opposed to the current state of (by now) chronic dejection as I watch some of gaming's greatest intellectual properties crumble beneath the weight of someone's "good ideas".
- OMH |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 16:10:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
In cases like the Dragon Overlords, for example, I'm sure the authors of that particular story line thought that the idea was neat, and I wouldn't be at all shocked to learn that a multitude of fans thought the same. I simply wasn't one of the multitudes.
- OMH
One thing I'll also throw out here is that certain ideas have become dated as well. The whole dragon overlords idea wasn't my cup of tea, but at the time it was somewhat new. Now they essentially have thrown that idea into Faerun's past, created the Council of Wyrms setting, and added it to Toril's "present" with Laerakond and Murghom, as well as having several countries in the old empires and shining south that were ruled by dragons (in secret or in the open), etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 16:49:51
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| The Council of Wyrms predated Krynn's Dragon Overlords, as I recall. And the CoW set didn't really do the dragons as rulers thing as much as "hey, this place is all dragons and you can play one, too!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 20:56:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Council of Wyrms predated Krynn's Dragon Overlords, as I recall. And the CoW set didn't really do the dragons as rulers thing as much as "hey, this place is all dragons and you can play one, too!"
That, too. Certainly different from the Pirates & Dragons game, where the lizards have returned to their classic ecological niche (apex predator), cannon-fired dragon harpoons notwithstanding, and aren't available as player characters.
Council of Wyrms always seemed to me to be a bit of a niche product, to be honest. Dragonlance managed to present the Dragon Overlords to an already-substantive fanbase, whereas CoW had to start from scratch. And this was, unless I'm misremembering, in the era of "campaign setting glut", so it was likely shouldered aside in favor of other IP's.
Perhaps because my expectations of the new Dragonlance effort really aren't all that high, I can try to maintain a detached outlook about the project, and hold out the possibility that I may be pleasantly surprised. Spelljammer is more free-form by it's very nature, so while, again, I'm not expecting much, much more can be excused by way of "creative interpretation."
- OMH |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2022 : 22:04:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
Council of Wyrms always seemed to me to be a bit of a niche product, to be honest. Dragonlance managed to present the Dragon Overlords to an already-substantive fanbase, whereas CoW had to start from scratch. And this was, unless I'm misremembering, in the era of "campaign setting glut", so it was likely shouldered aside in favor of other IP's.
I'm not sure if Council of Wyrms was intended as a one-off product or not, but it ended up being one. Aside from an article or two in Dragon, all we had for Council of Wyrms was the original boxed set and then a later reprint as a hardcover.
Council of Wyrms came out in 1994. TSR went under a couple years later. It's possible that they intended to do more with the setting, but found their money was tight and decided to go in a different direction. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2022 : 12:12:56
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Looks like another "publish something to not let IP lapse" thing. Expectations are not high. Especially seeing how by now even Diablo Edition era stuff is too good to keep on the Wizards site.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I find it curious that all the discussion is about Spelljammer, and no one is paying attention to the return of Dragonlance... While I've often said that Spelljammer was my first love of D&D settings, Dragonlance was my introduction to D&D settings (and fiction!), and it was seeing a blurb saying something like "from the publishers of the Dragonlance saga" that caught my eye and led to my first purchase of anything Forgotten Realms-related.
Considering that it definitely will not be made by the original authors, "de Dragonlance aut bene aut nihil".
The benchmarks being Castle Greyhawk and Disney Star Warts. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2022 : 04:34:49
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If Wizbro owns the IP then I doubt they need to publish stuff just to "maintain" it. Their legal ownership of the IP seems well-established, it won't expire or turn to public domain ownership just because they aren't keeping it active.
Audience awareness of the IP will gradually diminish over time, of course. But that's no big deal - books, movies, and stories which are based on "forgotten" IPs can always be re-launched, re-booted, re-told, re-imagined, re-invented, companies do it all the time. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 May 2022 04:37:59 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
572 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2022 : 06:20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not sure if Council of Wyrms was intended as a one-off product or not, but it ended up being one. Aside from an article or two in Dragon, all we had for Council of Wyrms was the original boxed set and then a later reprint as a hardcover.
Council of Wyrms came out in 1994. TSR went under a couple years later. It's possible that they intended to do more with the setting, but found their money was tight and decided to go in a different direction.
I've never seen any evidence that it was planned to be a larger thing. Pretty sure they would have had some adventures or supplements out within six months of its release if so. Some of the TSR stuff was specifically just a one-off because someone had an idea they thought would sell reasonably well on its own (CoW did well enough to get a hardbound reprint a few years later).
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Dragonlance and Spelljammer return!
