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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2022 : 18:05:16
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On a more lore-related question: how do you guys use Archdemons and Archdevils?
Because with evil gods, do they not seem redundant?
Are they gods themselves of evil or just essentially, big Planar Bosses stealing souls for their own amusement/power?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2022 : 18:21:31
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I'm a big fan of Dungeons and Dragons Demology (D&D&D) so I'm definitely biased here and have a few short rules. I suspect I'm also motivated by the fact I've done a lot of Planescape and while I never much cared for their "normalization" of fiends, I still have a lot of thoughts from them too.
How I handle Archfiends
Note: This is just how I do it at my games. Plenty is non-canon or different between editions
1. Archdemons and Devils are not deities unless they're noted as such. Asmodeus, Lolth, and a handful of others are the exceptions that prove the rule. The big difference is the fact that you can go to a Demon Lord's plane and kill them. It would be HARD and is almost certainly suicidal but it is POSSIBLE. If you meet a deity in their home plane in my games and attack them, it's like swatting an insect. You lose.
2. Technically, this means Gargauth is the most powerful of all Archdevils as a Demigod. Except, of course, for Asmodeus.
3. Fiends can grant spells and special abilities if they make a sould pact. So there's Blackguards and demonic priests running around. I probably would institute a level cap unless you were an Archdemon or Devil, though. An Abishani isn't going to be able to grant the same level of power as Orcus.
Maybe 3rd level spells for most demons, 5th for Pit Fiends and Balor, and only unlimited for Demon Lords and Archdevils.
4. Plenty of evil deities have demons and devils working for them. Lolth can certainly make lots of them directly loyal to her but mostly its just they're bullied into their service. A demon or devil specifically made by a deity is a different kind than the ones "in the wild" though.
5. Demons and Devils are not major players in Outer Plane politics around the Realms with the rare exceptions that prove the rule. Like I said, the difference between the strongest demons and devils vs. gods is insurmountable.
6. Weirdly, I also draw a distinction between gods of evil and fiends too. Bane, as much of an evil bastard as he is, will never be as evil as a being literally made of evil. Set wants to rule all of Mulhorand but he's not going to torture his own followers and has a specific ideology that he follows.
Fiends are just dicks. The cruelty and wickedness is the point.
7. OUT OF THE ABYSS illustrates this sort of thing where the fact that Lolth cast all of the Archdemons in the Abyss (or at least a good chunk of the most famous ones) into the Underdark. Which she could do. Because she's a god and they're demons. Also, it was fun.
8. Most gods stay out of infernal politics with rare exceptions like Tiamat, Lolth, and (of course) Asmodeus. Orcus was never a god but came close with his resurrection and his use of the Last Word to go on a god-killing spree.
9. Asmodeus being a greater god is actually a recent thing or something that has only recently come to be known. It is something that gods find shocking and horrifying because, again, fiends are fundamentally different.
Lolth is the worst goddess of them all because she's both a Taanari/Demon AND a goddess. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 16 Apr 2022 18:24:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2022 : 22:37:42
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I prefer to avoid planar types other than elementals and deities. I don't have any objections to their inclusion; I just prefer to keep things "local".
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Apr 2022 22:40:48 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2022 : 01:20:53
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I don't really use them that much. Basic difference for me is that a god can grant worshippers spells. An archfiend can only grant spells if there is a deal in place between the individual and the fiend that has been signed in the individual's blood. People can worship an archfiend all they want but they will get no spells from the archfiend and the archfiend gets no "power" from their worship. That is why you see archfiends like Asmodeus and Graz'zt hatching plots to become gods.
Lolth and all other evil gods that have areas or levels in the Abyss are more powerful than the archfiends and if they ganged up on a god, the god has more than enough power to remove their planes from the Abyss. The archfiends won't do this because the domains that are controlled by a god leaks a little bit of power into the other levels of the Abyss so the demons benefit from the evil god's presence.
Lolth is a god. Period. She was a god before she "fell" and has remained one ever since.
For Hell, each god has absolute control over their home areas. If pressed, they COULD also remove their areas from the Hells. This, however, will not happen because of a deal made between Asmodeus and the evil gods: as long as the god stays out of any power struggles within Hell's Hierarchy, no demon of any rank will work against the god on any plane. Certainly, there can be deals between archdevils and an evil gods for actions on planes outside of Hell as long as that deal has no direct effect on the hierarchy or works against another Hell-based evil god.
Finally, only archfiends and one level down can grant spells. Lower level fiends can certainly make deals with mortals that are signed in blood but that mortal will not get any granted spells or powers out of the deal. They would probably get access to some very powerful magic items or access to spellbooks that have powerful spells in them that almost no one else would have access to. |
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 17 Apr 2022 01:25:00 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2434 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2022 : 13:34:00
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Gods need worshipers. They have a great interest in Prime, because that's the best shot at carving out a territory with lots of worshipers and little competition and holding it.
High-level fiends are mostly busy with raising or keeping their status. Why would they be directly interested in Puny Mortals? So most of the time they don't care about Prime.
Until and unless one tries to become a god. Or has a shot at amassing an accessible power base against rival or archenemies.
Or hear about one of those creating a power base which therefore needs to be broken (but this can be done cheaply by someone else's hand, since the other fiend has many enemies too). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2022 : 15:37:11
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It's worth reminding Gods and fiends are not separate species. There are beings that have the divine spark + portfolio of a god while also being an archfiend. Asmodeus and Lolth are the most famous examples.
The Archdukes of the Nine Hells under Asmodeus have been known to wield power akin to gods while in the Nine Hells and support clerics of their own. Ed Greenwood's explanation about how Exarchs actually work gave me a basis to work with. Asmodeus perhaps grants an aspect (a share of influence) of his portfolio to each Archduke, enabling them to channel a small portion of divine power. They would at least have power levels rivaling demigods, though they are not true gods (Mephistopheles came close to becoming one though).
Archdukes of the Nine Hells are often mistaken with Demon Lords of the Abyss.
Archdevils fall into two categories: Dukes/Duchesses, and Archdukes/Archduchesses. Ranks 12 and 13 on the hierarchy scale.
All the Archdukes have a quota to meet in gathering mortal souls. Souls can be used for currency, batteries, devil recruitment, and slave labor.
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2022 : 17:27:16
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In my game they are just another rank.
The rank and file of fiends is always trying to lure, entrap, beguile, trick and take advantage of any mortal they can. The same way the rank and file of celestials are doing. The fiendish royalty is simply at the top of this chain.
Any God beyond a demi god is infinity more powerful then fiendish royalty. Bane could wiggle his pinky finger and obliterate any fiend. Except that won't really get Bane anything. A new fiend would just rise up and take the gone ones place. At best Bane could get stuck in a forever loop where he obliterated the (same) fiend each second as a new fiend rose up to take it's place. And that is just one fiend, Bane would be in a massively distracting forever loop to obliterate every royal fiend. But Bane could never obliterate the Lower Planes, so there would always be new fiends and new fiend royalty.
And while Bane is so distracted, Tyr could obliterate Bane. (though..of course, then a new power would rise as a new Bane...and so on)
Gods are also limited in a lot of ways. A big way is that gods are not universal. Each god limits themselves to a couple portfolios or interests. Also each god is limited in area. To use Bane as an example again: Bane is not even worshiped everywhere on Toril. Bane only has a hold on Fareun, and has little or no presence on any other continent....not to mention little presence in all of Realmspace.
Fiends, on the other hand, are Everywhere.
Also, the typical god goes for "higher" targets by their own selection. Fiends almost exist to target the bottom of the barrel...or the mud under that barrel. Sure a fiend would go after a king if they could, but few gods would go after a drunk laying in the mud. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2022 : 19:51:43
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My list of actually deified fiends is as follows:
Asmodeus (Greater God)
As mentioned, Asmodeus in my campaign was the one to slay Amaunator and claimed his divine porftolio after the Fall of Netheril. However, this was actually part of a larger gambit by the Sun God to rebirth himself as a God of Light. This is the origins of the Blood War in my games, or at least the latest round of it (maybe there had been a "short" peace for 10K or so before then).
Asmodeus in the Realms: Asmodeus has the largest cult among mortals but that isn't saying much. He's primarily worshiped by Tieflings, Fey'ri, and mortals seeking to avoid his wrath. In my games, being AFRAID of Asmodeus is actually good enough to qualify as worship as is the constant streams of "Asmodeus take you" and "Damn you." Even so, he's a somewhat greedy god as no mortal would voluntarily worship him unless they were out of their mind.
Lolth (Lesser God)
In my entirely non-canon write-up of Lolth, Lolth was banished from the Seldarine for her attempt to kill Corellon and reduced to an Outsider banished to the Abyss. Lolth proceeded then to devour the essence of a Demon Prince of Spiders (who I have nicknamed "Shelob") and became the hideously evil Demon Prince they are now. Lolth actually squanders the worship of the Drow in her insanity and her rising to Greater God status only to be kicked down to Lesser God status again is not that uncommon.
Lolth in the Realms: We're pretty much aware of her activity more than any other demon prince.
Gargauth (Demigod)
The Lord of the Tenth had ambitions to overthrow Asmodeus and managed to come closer than anyone by stealing the divinity of another god. However, that was a foolish mistake because it only clued him in to the fact how powerful Asmodeus truly was. He could easily beat any other Archdevil but Asmodeus himself is impossible to do so. He's also been slowly starved of worshipers to the point only the Knights of the Shield know him.
Gargauth in the Realms: Descent into Avernys is probably the final end of Gargauth as he's reached the end of his amusement factor for Asmodeus. If the PCs destroy his avatar or Zariel does, then Asmodeus will take the remainder of his godly power for himself.
Orcus (Former God)
Orcus used to be an Intermediate Deity and was one of the most widely worshiped and terrifying gods in the Forgotten Realms. My headcanon is that he actually was the soul of the wizard Acherath of Tomb of Horrors fame after being dispatched by adventurers who tossed him in the Sphere of Annihilation. Orcus managed to be worshiped by vast numbers of undead, mortal cultists (due to the sex cult element I incorporate), and necromancers. Unfortunately, for him, he overstepped himself and his avatar's defeat in Bloodstone Pass resulted in him being weakened.
Weakened enough that Kiaransalee stole his true name and slew him, erasing his memory from all mortal minds and starving him of worship. Orcus would eventually be resurrected but "only" as a lowly Demon Prince without his divine status, which is a massive step down from what he was.
Orcus in the Realms: Is a patron of necromancers, liches, and monsters. He's very cautious but desires a way to steal Kiaransalee's power, Velsharoon's, or even Myrkul's again. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 17 Apr 2022 19:52:31 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2022 : 19:54:01
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
In my game they are just another rank.
The rank and file of fiends is always trying to lure, entrap, beguile, trick and take advantage of any mortal they can. The same way the rank and file of celestials are doing. The fiendish royalty is simply at the top of this chain.
Any God beyond a demi god is infinity more powerful then fiendish royalty. Bane could wiggle his pinky finger and obliterate any fiend. Except that won't really get Bane anything. A new fiend would just rise up and take the gone ones place. At best Bane could get stuck in a forever loop where he obliterated the (same) fiend each second as a new fiend rose up to take it's place. And that is just one fiend, Bane would be in a massively distracting forever loop to obliterate every royal fiend. But Bane could never obliterate the Lower Planes, so there would always be new fiends and new fiend royalty.
And while Bane is so distracted, Tyr could obliterate Bane. (though..of course, then a new power would rise as a new Bane...and so on)
Gods are also limited in a lot of ways. A big way is that gods are not universal. Each god limits themselves to a couple portfolios or interests. Also each god is limited in area. To use Bane as an example again: Bane is not even worshiped everywhere on Toril. Bane only has a hold on Fareun, and has little or no presence on any other continent....not to mention little presence in all of Realmspace.
Fiends, on the other hand, are Everywhere.
Also, the typical god goes for "higher" targets by their own selection. Fiends almost exist to target the bottom of the barrel...or the mud under that barrel. Sure a fiend would go after a king if they could, but few gods would go after a drunk laying in the mud.
I like your description of Bane and swatting them. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2022 : 21:42:13
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I present Asmodeus as something much older than any god, which is what some 2nd and 3rd edition material did. He is a fundamentally different order of being. While he may act as a god when and if it suits him (passing out spells and so on), no god with a brain is going to start smack talking him, or get themselves involved in the Blood War or into Baator’s political games without either suicidal overconfidence or total obliviousness (gods might set up shop on layers of the Hells for their divine realms, but that is a very different thing to challenging or controlling the rulers of those layers - what it is, is more a buying into fiendish politics in some way). Some even consult him (warily, because he always gets more out of a deal or conversation than he gives), much like how Lolth is attempting to learn secrets of the pre-Abyss multiverse from the draeden living in the Abyss (more accurately the Abyss lives on the draeden, I suppose, since the Abyss formed around the draeden when it decided to take a nap at one point).
In the living memories of even some of the very oldest of the gods, Asmodeus has always ruled Baator. Very few gods even know of the tales that Baator originally had fewer than nine layers: Asmodeus created those deeper layers when he first fell, and while he walks around as the classically horned, red skinned demon with a Ruby Rod, his true form remains the great sluglike Worm now coiled deep in the blackest pits of Nessus, still weeping blood that shapes Pit Fiends and new Archdevils from the wounds caused by his Descent.
I also make sure to never, ever have him portrayed as lying. I personally consider it a far more hideous idea that he can do so with the truth instead: because to do so sullies something that should ultimately be a good thing at the end of the day.
He’s a completely different sort of evil. |
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"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2022 : 02:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
7. OUT OF THE ABYSS illustrates this sort of thing where the fact that Lolth cast all of the Archdemons in the Abyss (or at least a good chunk of the most famous ones) into the Underdark. Which she could do. Because she's a god and they're demons. Also, it was fun.
A certain famous Drow Archmage was conducting private high-magic research, drawing knowledge from a "Book of the Eight" tome, had Lolth's influence without his awareness, and primarily was trying to ignite the underdark's Faerzress radiation to serve as a second try at a Demon Weave. What Gromph Baenrae expected was not the same thing as what happened. Lolth used Gromph's ritual, which she engineered, but I wouldn't give her credit for igniting Toril into chaos and banishing the Demon Lords. Nobody knows what Faerzress does, and the fact that the Drow seem to think it is their high-magic birthright has always seemed like pro-Lolth propaganda- at least in my many years of observation of OOTA. To be honest, nothing is really "explained". WOTC doesn't really do explanations anymore.
If she didn't need help banishing the Demon Lords, then why did she need Gromph to cast his spell in Sorcere?
quote:
9. Asmodeus being a greater god is actually a recent thing or something that has only recently come to be known. It is something that gods find shocking and horrifying because, again, fiends are fundamentally different.
Asmodeus' divinity seems so fragrantly pointless in fifth edition. In 4e he claimed to have won the blood war by 'casting the abyss into the elemental chaos' during the great idiocy that was the 4th edition 'linear cosmology'. Post second sundering the Great Wheel appears restored and the Blood War is described as that same never ending super-war. If that's what he did the last time he gained divinity, then what is he doing now with that Greater Status? If Ahriman- I mean Asmodeus has been a Greater God before, then I would assume he'd know how to handle it. Kind of seems like Asmodeus in 5e is just in agreement with the Powers That Be (WOTC) in deciding to do literally nothing and keep the D&D cosmos sedentary, recognizable, and enjoyable for players.
As for answering the question posed by the title- I haven't been able to make a concise response. I just keep writing big walls of text about the shift of universal conquest by Obox-Ob/Tharizdun ousting the Spirits of Law and becoming sole ruler of the Astral- to just waging war everywhere with Demons under Miska the Wolf-Spider when the Queen of Chaos betrayed Obox-Ob. If you go with 'Obyriths first, Demons later' cosmology then you have Devils forming as an exact response to Demons. Devils hold off the abyss at Baator while the Vaati hold off the abyss at Pesh and on the Elemental Planes. The war that corrupted the Devils was the war to save reality, and every inch of the abyss that exists in the D&D game is a piece of matter that once belonged to the greater world. Ancient beings could tell player characters how "the universe used to be bigger" and there used to be a lot more original spirits. Probably 99% of all reality was lost to the abyss and unable to be won back, and the 'great wheel' is actually just a cope. The Obyrith would not only be able to rule the world if they broke past Baator and Limbo and the Concordant Crossroads but they would be able to get to Mt Celestia and potentially 'escape the D&D universe' which is about as bad-end as you can get. So they get stopped. Now when you explore the abyss, you're walking on lost worlds and talking with spirits that want nothing more than to be rid of the Devils and devour the world.
Demon lords and Archdevils have personalities and preferences and such lovely backstories and motivations, but this war is always on their minds. The devils fight for the survival of everything, and feel sinfully proud of it. They would sacrifice everything to rid the world of the abyss, but that's just not happening. Asmodeus became a god and still only did cosmetic damage. |
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Edited by - PattPlays on 19 Apr 2022 04:33:33 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2022 : 16:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
9. Asmodeus being a greater god is actually a recent thing or something that has only recently come to be known. It is something that gods find shocking and horrifying because, again, fiends are fundamentally different.
Asmodeus' divinity seems so fragrantly pointless in fifth edition. In 4e he claimed to have won the blood war by 'casting the abyss into the elemental chaos' during the great idiocy that was the 4th edition 'linear cosmology'. Post second sundering the Great Wheel appears restored and the Blood War is described as that same never ending super-war. If that's what he did the last time he gained divinity, then what is he doing now with that Greater Status? If Ahriman- I mean Asmodeus has been a Greater God before, then I would assume he'd know how to handle it. Kind of seems like Asmodeus in 5e is just in agreement with the Powers That Be (WOTC) in deciding to do literally nothing and keep the D&D cosmos sedentary, recognizable, and enjoyable for players.
Demon lords and Archdevils have personalities and preferences and such lovely backstories and motivations, but this war is always on their minds. The devils fight for the survival of everything, and feel sinfully proud of it. They would sacrifice everything to rid the world of the abyss, but that's just not happening. Asmodeus became a god and still only did cosmetic damage.
It's worth noting that the cosmologies are scholarly conceptual maps and not actually physical maps. It could be said that what Asmodeus did was shift planar connections rather than actually physically hurling the Abyss. The Blood War was never claimed to be "won", only ended, albeit temporarily as planes re-aligned like a rubber band.
The Abyss is infinite as are the hordes of demons being spawned from it, due to the power of the Shard of Infinite Evil at the bottom of the plane. The devils keep the demons in check with the Blood War, so that they don't spill into all the Outer Planes, and that's all that Asmodeus is [contractually obligated] to do as warden of Baator.
It's implied in Tyrants of the Nine Hells that Asmodeus is biding his time for a big move sometime down the line, building up his armies and getting ready for the right time. Should the Blood War be won, Asmodeus would need to deal with the aftermath as well, and that takes careful planning. This is a long immortal game that shouldn't have mortal values and expectations attached to it.
It may serve Asmodeus to drag out the Blood War as much as possible and perhaps let it spill a bit here and there to gather information for his eventual big move.
Being a greater god of greater experience (having lived since the Dawn War era) means that Asmodeus has few enemies willing to oppose him directly, forcing opposition to scheme and plot behind closed doors. This is a foe that can't be overcome through brute strength, and that very well fits with the image of a conniving king of devils.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2022 : 19:55:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Being a greater god of greater experience (having lived since the Dawn War era) means that Asmodeus has few enemies willing to oppose him directly, forcing opposition to scheme and plot behind closed doors. This is a foe that can't be overcome through brute strength, and that very well fits with the image of a conniving king of devils.
It's not like his enemies were lining up to oppose him before his inexplicable ascension. Him being a deity doesn't factor into that.
This is part of why I don't have any use for him as a deity: it's redundant for him. If anything, it's a distraction, because it forces him to have to deal with mortal realms. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2022 : 05:28:15
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quote:
If she didn't need help banishing the Demon Lords, then why did she need Gromph to cast his spell in Sorcere?
I think the deities of the Realms are not kept in check by any law that prevents them from exerting their will in the Realms so much as they are by the fact other gods can as well, so you must use a subtler hand. Lolth wants to unleash all of the Abyss on the Underdark because :lol: but to do so, she needs Gromph to be the one who pushes the button.
Mind you, this is just how I'd run it. The rules are kept deliberately vague because some things should be up to DM interpretation. That way you can adjust the metaphysics of the Realms to suit your preferred story and playstyle.
But that's just my take.
quote:
Asmodeus' divinity seems so fragrantly pointless in fifth edition. In 4e he claimed to have won the blood war by 'casting the abyss into the elemental chaos' during the great idiocy that was the 4th edition 'linear cosmology'. Post second sundering the Great Wheel appears restored and the Blood War is described as that same never ending super-war. If that's what he did the last time he gained divinity, then what is he doing now with that Greater Status? If Ahriman- I mean Asmodeus has been a Greater God before, then I would assume he'd know how to handle it. Kind of seems like Asmodeus in 5e is just in agreement with the Powers That Be (WOTC) in deciding to do literally nothing and keep the D&D cosmos sedentary, recognizable, and enjoyable for players.
Well, the Blood War doesn't have much importance in the Great Tree mythology as there's now hundreds of separate god realms. So, the Abyss warring against the Nine Hells doesn't make much sense. I also felt like they were attempting to make a big dramatic entrance for Asmodeus' ascension to be a deity.
I think a better bigger entrance would have been to reveal Vecna's "Serpent" who helped him plot the takeover of the Multiverse that ALMOST succeeded was Asmodeus (if there's going to be one person who can outsmart all the rules of the cosmos, it'd be Asmodeus) but "winning" the Blood War certainly helped.
But the Blood War is one of those things I feel that fans either really like or really dislike. If you want good to be fighting evil and not evil versus evil its just a needless distraction.
quote:
Demon lords and Archdevils have personalities and preferences and such lovely backstories and motivations, but this war is always on their minds. The devils fight for the survival of everything, and feel sinfully proud of it. They would sacrifice everything to rid the world of the abyss, but that's just not happening. Asmodeus became a god and still only did cosmetic damage.
For me, I feel like they elevated Asmodeus to Greater God status to provide a different flavor of evil for the Realms/D&D as a whole. Part of why Cyric failed as a god was that he reduced villainous options. We have Bane for the Sauron-style evil overlord, Cyric for Joker-style mayhem and chaos, Shar for oblivious/nihilistic destruction, and now we have Asmodeus for calculated urbane evil.
Gargauth used to be availlable for this but he was only a Demigod and in the shield. Now we have an evil god of wealth, style, and taste to do subtle manipulations behind the scenes. Talos was used this way in the second Moonshae Trilogy btu he's not like that...at all. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2022 : 08:44:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
For me, I feel like they elevated Asmodeus to Greater God status to provide a different flavor of evil for the Realms/D&D as a whole. Part of why Cyric failed as a god was that he reduced villainous options. We have Bane for the Sauron-style evil overlord, Cyric for Joker-style mayhem and chaos, Shar for oblivious/nihilistic destruction, and now we have Asmodeus for calculated urbane evil.
Gargauth used to be availlable for this but he was only a Demigod and in the shield. Now we have an evil god of wealth, style, and taste to do subtle manipulations behind the scenes. Talos was used this way in the second Moonshae Trilogy btu he's not like that...at all.
This right here is just so much for me, lol. Thanks for the comments.
Cyric just doesn't work nowadays. When you lay out his relationships and his actions pre-spellplague he doesn't even come off as a character, but as an unhinged 'fantasy fulfillment' for whom I don't wanna know. It's so strange how everything touching Midnight and Cyric seems radioactive but Kelemvor just keeps getting more valid. When I think about how someone like Jergal would view Kelemvor, it's a fascinating question. This guy definitely captures that question of "what if your adventuring party became gods" without becoming nonsensical. I don't know him personally, but seeing the two unhinged travel companions he had, he seems like one of the best straight-men in fiction for being able to come out of that insanity as the most reasonable god of death that D&D seems to have ever had sit down in the City of the Dead. I don't know if 5e's great wheel simplicity would be right without Kelemvor appearing next to the greats as if he had always been there from the start. It's a fascinating soul to imagine 5e player characters interacting with, and it makes interacting with the previous gods of Death even more fascinating- as any Player Character could be the next Kelemvor who impresses the gods with the ability of their souls to handle the politics of the astral domains. Cyric in turn got saved brilliantly by the spellplague by getting this mysterious "crazy enough to let in the far realm" quality. However something about the spellplague being tied to this whiny little **** stabbing a woman in her own home just seems.. I don't know what the word for it is.
As for Asmodeus, gosh, how many times in the 1400's did the book-writers send people to the Hells? That and the whole new-age tiefling situation. Asmodeus was all over the place, but when you have his warlocks as main franchise-holding protagonists and Asmodeus's situation with Nana Sin and Azuth being a huge (if quiet) part of how the events around the Second Sundering help brush everything east of the Moonsea under the rug of 5e Sword-Coast dominance then is he really an evil part of the story or is he (like the plane he calls home) just a part of the reality people live in?
Asmodeus is all over 4th edition, but I don't really know how much evil is done? It's the problem with "unseen evil". I'm sure Asmodeus' urban priest cells are consuming great wealth and doing who knows what else to make offerings to their god, but what cult doesn't do this? The realms is full of tolerating evil cults (often favoring them to having monstrous communities on their city outskirts) that one assumes are doing evil things in their quiet temples or underfoot. I don't know what great villainy Asmodeus has done with this greater deity status. It becomes so distant. I mean, what value does the Pact Primeval or the Ruby Rod of Law have to a Greater God?
Meeting Asmodeus in a D&D game: It would have been interesting to imagine one of the most powerful single beings in D&D sitting there looking at your character. But a god? Save for such wonderful characters such as Jergal and Sardior, meeting a God in person in the outer planes would probably be such an esoteric experience that getting that one-on-one feeling would probably be very difficult.
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Every god, when ingrained into the cosmos, even Cyric, is by their very existence a part of the current make-up of reality and thought across this sphere if not others. Demon lords you can enjoy splatting into chunks easy because that energy will be dispersed out into the hordes to fuel new Balors in time. However, removing a god would be like dragging a Server Rack from a server room without removing any of the cables, hauling it out of the room and out of the building while the cables stretch and snap. That is, without replacing them immediately as so often happens in D&D. So outside of faction rivalry between different churches, what use is there to hating a god? Auril was an antagonist for Rime of the Frostmaiden, which I have not played. How well does that go? Was she made to be a personal villain or a violent and confounding force of nature? The archdevils make great characters, and powerful statblocks if you want to fight them, but the true villainy of the hells is always in the hands of those least members of the hegemony pressing the hands of the once-innocent. The day to day fiendish acts of mortals, and a couple summoned greater fiends who literally embody the ideals of the cult- only to be outdone in their sinfulness by that cult's mortal leader. Attributing an entire D&D campaign's evil members' actions to Asmodeus: supreme archdevil of hell feels like the ultimate finale on a quest against cruel domination in any D&D setting. And just maybe, you can kill him and take the Ruby Rod- if not the Hells themself. But when Asmodeus serves the roles of their divine portfolios and takes credit for those fundamental forces of nature and society, it feels like he's no longer a ruler of a territory but rather a spoke in the wheel of humanoid culture. Like a plane of existence, he won't go away until he's forgotten or re-understood- or supplanted. I'm just rambling.
Gargauth, gosh. Thanks to one typo in City of Splendor I had to dive so deep into this character. Then Baldur's Gate comes out and teases us with the thought of answers to this ex-archfiend demon-lord whatever-the-heck-he-is. Only to, as always, leave it up to the DM on what the shield's possessing creature can do if released into the hells. Gargauth also got split into two..? In older lore..? I've made a thread on this, I think.
Edit: As for Vecna's mom and the Serpent, yes, haha. There's always a snake-people in the background of any story.
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Edited by - PattPlays on 20 Apr 2022 09:01:46 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2022 : 20:32:05
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
This right here is just so much for me, lol. Thanks for the comments.
Cyric just doesn't work nowadays. When you lay out his relationships and his actions pre-spellplague he doesn't even come off as a character, but as an unhinged 'fantasy fulfillment' for whom I don't wanna know. It's so strange how everything touching Midnight and Cyric seems radioactive but Kelemvor just keeps getting more valid. When I think about how someone like Jergal would view Kelemvor, it's a fascinating question. This guy definitely captures that question of "what if your adventuring party became gods" without becoming nonsensical.
I don't know him personally, but seeing the two unhinged travel companions he had, he seems like one of the best straight-men in fiction for being able to come out of that insanity as the most reasonable god of death that D&D seems to have ever had sit down in the City of the Dead. I don't know if 5e's great wheel simplicity would be right without Kelemvor appearing next to the greats as if he had always been there from the start. It's a fascinating soul to imagine 5e player characters interacting with, and it makes interacting with the previous gods of Death even more fascinating- as any Player Character could be the next Kelemvor who impresses the gods with the ability of their souls to handle the politics of the astral domains.
Cyric in turn got saved brilliantly by the spellplague by getting this mysterious "crazy enough to let in the far realm" quality. However something about the spellplague being tied to this whiny little **** stabbing a woman in her own home just seems.. I don't know what the word for it is.
Cyric is an interesting character that I think is a fantastic example of "character shilling." Its not that I don't think Cyric is cool. I think Cyric is a character that suffers the same problem that Bane and Doomsday suffered. He makes a pretty big grand entrance but then writers struggle to figure out what to do with them.
Cyric as the god of Madness, Lies, and Murder works perfectly. He's a better god than Bhaal and represents the perfect god for Chaotic Evil Joker types as well as the serial killers, charlatans, and con men of the Realms.
The problem is Cyric is NOT a very good villain for being Arthas, which is what the Avatar Trilogy tried to turn him into. The overwhelming terrifying Big Bad of the Entire Setting. Prince of Lies established him as a LOSER and whatever you may say about Bane, he's not a loser. Having him responsible for the Spellplague increases his body count but it just makes him look like a pawn of Shar.
Malik is the best thing to ever happen to Cyric as the idea of Cyric being worshiped by a weaselly used car salesmen is more interesting than all the terrorist priests doing evil for evil's sake.
Sometimes less is more.
quote:
As for Asmodeus, gosh, how many times in the 1400's did the book-writers send people to the Hells? That and the whole new-age tiefling situation. Asmodeus was all over the place, but when you have his warlocks as main franchise-holding protagonists and Asmodeus's situation with Nana Sin and Azuth being a huge (if quiet) part of how the events around the Second Sundering help brush everything east of the Moonsea under the rug of 5e Sword-Coast dominance then is he really an evil part of the story or is he (like the plane he calls home) just a part of the reality people live in?
I feel Asmodeus works very well as a workhorse force of evil and the trains of evil running on time versus Bane, Shar, and Cyric's plots to undo reality. Asmodeus is focusing on getting those Sembian merchants to sell slaves and drugs to children or otherwise engaged in Dickensian villainy versus trying to end the world. He's got a VERY long time to run his operation and one giant victory is worth less a million tiny ones.
But it's really how you present the various deities and demigods. For me, Asmodeus is the chance to do subtler evil and there's a lot of evil in the Realms but very little subtle.
quote:
Asmodeus is all over 4th edition, but I don't really know how much evil is done? It's the problem with "unseen evil". I'm sure Asmodeus' urban priest cells are consuming great wealth and doing who knows what else to make offerings to their god, but what cult doesn't do this? The realms is full of tolerating evil cults (often favoring them to having monstrous communities on their city outskirts) that one assumes are doing evil things in their quiet temples or underfoot. I don't know what great villainy Asmodeus has done with this greater deity status. It becomes so distant. I mean, what value does the Pact Primeval or the Ruby Rod of Law have to a Greater God
Honestly, I think that pretty much summarizes everything problematic with the Realms. The way evil religions are treated in the setting means that everyone thinks they're serial killer cults instead of something that everyone would be worshiping at. Of course you worship Talos, he's the god of rain and storms. Of course you worship Auril, you don't want to freeze to death.
If everyone is peak EvilTM, then there's no one doing the little evils.
quote:
Meeting Asmodeus in a D&D game: It would have been interesting to imagine one of the most powerful single beings in D&D sitting there looking at your character. But a god? Save for such wonderful characters such as Jergal and Sardior, meeting a God in person in the outer planes would probably be such an esoteric experience that getting that one-on-one feeling would probably be very difficult.
It depends on how you run your Realms, I suppose. If you run them comic book style, Mephisto (who Asmodeus is) showing up is a rare but not necessarily lifechanging event.
If you're afraid of power creep, though, you'd send a Cambion instead of Asmodeus. But I like gods showing up with my players ala Clash of the Titans.
quote:
Every god, when ingrained into the cosmos, even Cyric, is by their very existence a part of the current make-up of reality and thought across this sphere if not others. Demon lords you can enjoy splatting into chunks easy because that energy will be dispersed out into the hordes to fuel new Balors in time. However, removing a god would be like dragging a Server Rack from a server room without removing any of the cables, hauling it out of the room and out of the building while the cables stretch and snap. That is, without replacing them immediately as so often happens in D&D. So outside of faction rivalry between different churches, what use is there to hating a god? Auril was an antagonist for Rime of the Frostmaiden, which I have not played. How well does that go? Was she made to be a personal villain or a violent and confounding force of nature?
One of the things I like about the modules is their regular incorporation of deities into plot. The Rhime of the Frost maiden has you slaying avatars of Auril, another has you preventing Tiamat's plan to run rampant across the Realms like Cthulhu, and so on. However, I dislike how INCONQUENTIAL the modules make facing these deities. I feel like if you have Auril moving to the Prime Material Plane to destroy Toril and the PCs slay her, then she should be perma-dead. The campaign realm changed for what she risked to accomplish.
Remember, the PCs are the stars not the deities at your table.
quote:
Attributing an entire D&D campaign's evil members' actions to Asmodeus: supreme archdevil of hell feels like the ultimate finale on a quest against cruel domination in any D&D setting. And just maybe, you can kill him and take the Ruby Rod- if not the Hells themself. But when Asmodeus serves the roles of their divine portfolios and takes credit for those fundamental forces of nature and society, it feels like he's no longer a ruler of a territory but rather a spoke in the wheel of humanoid culture. Like a plane of existence, he won't go away until he's forgotten or re-understood- or supplanted. I'm just rambling.
I suppose it's how you define how important the PCs are in any given campaign. For me, the important thing to remember is the PCs are the most important people in the universe. They are the spokes of the wheel for world-changing events and permanent alterations to both the pantheon as well as world status quo.
Asmodeus is Mephisto, the PCs are the Avengers. It may take them a 1-20th level campaign to finally perma-kill him but that's not impossible. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 20 Apr 2022 20:52:20 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2022 : 04:00:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Attributing an entire D&D campaign's evil members' actions to Asmodeus: supreme archdevil of hell feels like the ultimate finale on a quest against cruel domination in any D&D setting. And just maybe, you can kill him and take the Ruby Rod- if not the Hells themself. But when Asmodeus serves the roles of their divine portfolios and takes credit for those fundamental forces of nature and society, it feels like he's no longer a ruler of a territory but rather a spoke in the wheel of humanoid culture. Like a plane of existence, he won't go away until he's forgotten or re-understood- or supplanted. I'm just rambling.
I suppose it's how you define how important the PCs are in any given campaign. For me, the important thing to remember is the PCs are the most important people in the universe. They are the spokes of the wheel for world-changing events and permanent alterations to both the pantheon as well as world status quo.
Thanks for your amazing and agreeable responses!
I love the idea that the gods are the spokes of the wheel, until player characters are made. Ever since the The Immortal Rules the 'greatest' accomplishment a PC is expected to accomplish is to supplant a god. The 'mantling' of divines and fiends by player characters (to use The Elder Scrolls for reference, which explicitly uses a wheel with spokes for its divine metaphysics) is a fascinating element of gameplay narratives and something that is all over the forgotten realms.
If a player wants to "kill a god!!" then they can, but those PCs will typically be coaxed into "taking their chair" and retiring into the setting as a new god- but without shaking up the cosmic order too much. The mortal is placated, and can slowly lose themselves to their responsibilities. Just like how the outer planes grind out your individuality until you're a petitioner- a part of the plane itself: something that maintains the status quo by convincing a spirit that this is what it wants.
You'd think that Ao and the inhabitants of the outer planes wouldn't want player characters going around killing gods and taking their places, but really that's exactly what they want you to do if you got the chance. They even don't mind you hunting down other portfolios and attempting to become a more powerful god- because every crown you put on your head is another set of strings constraining you to the cosmic order.
What 'they' don't want you to do is to see you kill a god and not claim their power and responsibilities for themselves. Not in the sense of refusing divine power and living your life as you normally would, no. I know PC's who would reject power- as in to return to mundane life. What you don't imagine happening often is a PC so dedicated to being 'that guy' at their D&D table that the PC doesn't want to just keep everything going on as normal. What 'they' don't want you to do when you get to "the end of D&D" is to start destroying the setting from the inside out. What 'they' don't want spirits to do is to do what Cyric did: Get up there and start tearing cables.
The obyrith inherently want to destroy the setting because they don't want to play D&D. They want to destroy the setting to make everything look more like the setting from whatever twisted 'game' they came from. I mean, imagine how that interaction with Jergal and the mortal dark three would go if one of the three 'players' just wanted to break something even after playing in this campaign for years of in-world time. "I want to be a king!" "I want your chair!" and Bhaal instead of saying "I am become Death!" throws a fit and convinces everyone present to fight eachother to the death. Then, like, Malar shows up and bites the head off of whomever remains wounded and becomes the god of both Stalking and Death- going on a stealthy god-killing spree that makes the spellplague look like a joke and doesn't give the other gods time to replace or subvert the nuclear mega-god beast that starts Ragnarock early and gives the Demons the edge to destroy reality. (Though how reality falls apart depends on who pushes the reset button. The spell-weavers, tharizdun, multiple different obyrith, and even your player character can all re-make the universe in different apocalyptic ways. Or, the mega-god beast could escape out through mount celestia into, say, our world.) Same situation if any one of the dead three (that is to say, a Player Character) ends up winning in that not-so-glamorous cartoon pile of violence. The gods have plans to maintain stability even when mortals are taking the reigns. If those plans go wrong, then the Abyss can be let loose by incompetence. The same thing for Hell. If someone were able to take Asmodeus' role without being as good as Asmodeus, then Baator could fall if an Archduke of hell doesn't step up to do the job right. Or worse- Zargon or Gargauth come back and start a civil war that lets the Blood War into Nessus.
Asmodeus, in another "so evil I'm good" moves, makes being a lawful evil god look like a pleasant thing. If you had Asmodeus weak and bleeding, showing just how much he has been wounded since, perhaps, tearing himself from his brother and falling bloody into Nessus, then they would probably convince you with their last breaths- blood of pit fiend power trickling down their arm, that the best decision the PC could make is to take up the rod, the cloak, and the chair and become the new Asmodeus. The moment someone else claims his title, the Archdukes will want to subvert the new ruler. So, you have to convince them to let you rule them- which means doing the same things Asmodeus did- because the whole point of Asmodeus (as a Lawful Spirit of the old ordered cosmos) is that he makes the objectively 'correct' decision for the sake of the cosmos and ensures the status quo of the Hells and the Blood War. If you want to do his job, you have to do his moves. When you're in his chair with his clothes and his rod and his responsibilities and his pit-fiend blood, you're basically just Asmodeus. He makes the position look glamorous- despite being in constant pain himself. He is the ultimate propagandist. Zargon used to be the supreme power of Baator, and Asmodeus would have you all convinced that everyone is better off for having Asmodeus as Archdevil instead of Zargon. Even though Zargon might be able to fight off infinite demons without the need for the Lawful Spirits to expose themselves to the Abyss. That said, I think if Tharizdun got a hold of Zargon then the cosmos might be rightly screwed. Imagine Ultimate Evil fused with an Unbreakable Horn.. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
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Outlaw Pope
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2022 : 11:41:24
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I feel where it comes to fiends, their general modus operandi tends to be the subversion, usurpation, and destruction of the Gods due to their connections to real life lore. While they may take on deific aspects in other spheres and superficially they resemble gods in their role and power you can really notice a difference usually in that, at least in the realms, clerics of fiendish powers are not bound by any particular alignment rules and you probably are not going to be 'abandoned' by your sponsor because you likely did something transactional for that connection - much like a warlock. I think this is covered in one of the FR handbooks.
Demons have a huge influence in pre 4e Realms, and the other kinds of fiends less so.
Evil Powers and Fiends might superficially seem similar, have similar goals, and might even work together (Bane having baatezu in his retinue and to send as heralds and so forth) but I do believe overall you are regarded as worse than even a cleric of an evil power for dealing with such things (and probably seen as foolish for doing so by other evil people).
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them. Yugoloths want to prolong their struggles as they are purely evil and unknowable.
Good aligned outsiders in the FR planes are usually aligned with/allied to the good powers in a similar way but good doesn't really infight like evil does so even if they do not agree with a certain wholesome power they're not going to coup them or anything. There is room for everyone who is (good). Goodly outsiders also do not covet the vanity of worship and rather want to do their (jobs) as defined by the gods in ancient days.
I am not sure if a lot of that is gone over in core FR but I recall something like this in the fiendish codices in 3x and the good-guy book in FR as well as the... opposite of the Book of Vile Darkness with the awful succubi in love before a paladin art. lol. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2022 : 14:49:21
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| I mostly play in planar campaigns, so archfiends and evil gods are kinda the same, powers. If a power is called a god depends on the continent or planet, for example in Mulhorand Cyric or Lolth would be archfiends. Some evil powers that depend too much on their worshippers are collectively shaped by them, others who don't, like yugoloths, remain pure evil. All the stories how one god created or destroyed the world are propaganda, the multiverse's too big, the Athar are right. |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2022 : 18:34:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them.
>enslaving the gods
It's so weird that gods and 'primordials' work together to make Toril and then the gods banish their hard working allies into the material plane, probably powering the natural magical fields of Toril that existed long before the Sarrukh stood upright.
Find a primordial underground and enslave it to power your furnace for millennia and nobody bats an eye. Attempt to bring a god to the material plane to use it to power an infinite energy device to create infinite resources to end world conflict and free mortals from needing to pray when they can just tap an infinite well and everyone loses their minds. Not that anyone could pull off that world-peace-by-imprisoning-the-gods plan. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't. He'd convince you that what you really want is revenge and chaining the gods in his backyard will emotionally satisfy you more than any torture mere mortals could imagine. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2022 : 19:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them.
>enslaving the gods
It's so weird that gods and 'primordials' work together to make Toril and then the gods banish their hard working allies into the material plane, probably powering the natural magical fields of Toril that existed long before the Sarrukh stood upright.
Find a primordial underground and enslave it to power your furnace for millennia and nobody bats an eye. Attempt to bring a god to the material plane to use it to power an infinite energy device to create infinite resources to end world conflict and free mortals from needing to pray when they can just tap an infinite well and everyone loses their minds. Not that anyone could pull off that world-peace-by-imprisoning-the-gods plan. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't. He'd convince you that what you really want is revenge and chaining the gods in his backyard will emotionally satisfy you more than any torture mere mortals could imagine.
I mean, there's all sorts of things wrong with this scientific premise to begin with, my fellow Tinker Gnome. Gods in Dungeons and Dragons need worship in order to have all of their power unlike Primordials. You would need to pray HARDER to get the God-Furnace going or you'll just end up with a chunk of real estate in the Astral Plane. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2022 : 01:23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them.
>enslaving the gods
It's so weird that gods and 'primordials' work together to make Toril and then the gods banish their hard working allies into the material plane, probably powering the natural magical fields of Toril that existed long before the Sarrukh stood upright.
If my analysis of the Dawn War era and DnD multiverse lore is correct, it might not be that the gods banished the primordials anywhere, but rather the primordials who got stuck where they were, whether in the Material, or other planes.
The gods seem able to planeshift at will unless they're in an environment that suppresses it, such as how Asmodeus keeps or kept (wink) Tiamat in Avernus. Other beings don't get that privilege for the most part, but may have been able to, before the multiverse was restructured into its current form.
My theory is that the gods created the barriers and separations between planes to gain the logistical advantage in the Dawn War, which is how they ended an effective deadlock that threatened to turn in favor of the primordials as the demons began to become a serious threat.
2e Guide to Hell provides an origin story of Asmodeus that perhaps can be spun to place Asmodeus (and the deity Jazirian) as leaders of the project that built the walls of the current DnD multiverse.
As such, Asmodeus killing his former master and setting up the realm of Baator as the Nine Hells takes on new meaning. Perhaps his master was against the project and had to be eliminated for the sake of winning the war...
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2022 : 02:21:17
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While not canon to Forgotten Realms, in my home games, Asmodeus is a local FR deity.
He killed Amaunator and claimed his godhood.
However, the players discovered Amaunator actually had foreseen the end of the Netherese civilization and arranged for his death to impact Asmodeus. Asmodeus was infused with an overwhelming disgust for Chaos and thus began the Blood War. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2022 : 02:23:31
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Outlaw Pope
Fiends want to corrupt, upend, and destroy the status quo of reality as - demons want to rend, shape, or outright destroy the multiverse and devils seem to interested in reshaping it toward their vision, upending, destroying, and enslaving the gods who made/betrayed them.
>enslaving the gods
It's so weird that gods and 'primordials' work together to make Toril and then the gods banish their hard working allies into the material plane, probably powering the natural magical fields of Toril that existed long before the Sarrukh stood upright.
Find a primordial underground and enslave it to power your furnace for millennia and nobody bats an eye. Attempt to bring a god to the material plane to use it to power an infinite energy device to create infinite resources to end world conflict and free mortals from needing to pray when they can just tap an infinite well and everyone loses their minds. Not that anyone could pull off that world-peace-by-imprisoning-the-gods plan. Asmodeus certainly wouldn't. He'd convince you that what you really want is revenge and chaining the gods in his backyard will emotionally satisfy you more than any torture mere mortals could imagine.
My personal theory is that the primordials are not and never have been from Toril. They're from somewhere else, and the Dawn War was them trying to invade Toril and take it over for themselves. All that rot about them being from Toril and then Ao retconning I mean, twinning an oddly non-twin world for them, that's just PR spread by the followers of those primordials. I'm also inclined to say that everything we know about the Spellplague is wrong; it was another attempt of the primordials to flee their dying world and invade Abeir-Toril again.
Yeah, I'll retcon a retcon to try to make it into something that doesn't break all prior lore.
Also, I think there are different categories of primordial... Really, I think primordials are, in general, just seriously high-power elementals. Mortals can, through various means, undergo apotheosis and become deities; we already know there are different power levels among elementals, so I say that primordials are simply another step beyond the existing structure. That's why we have primordials that are relatively weak and can be shoved into a forge for centuries, while others are comparable to deities. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 14:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Gargauth used to be availlable for this but he was only a Demigod and in the shield. Now we have an evil god of wealth, style, and taste to do subtle manipulations behind the scenes. Talos was used this way in the second Moonshae Trilogy btu he's not like that...at all.
Just to note, Gargauth wasn't IN the shield prior to 5e. He was speaking through a magic item. They made him get "entrapped" as part of a means to bring him back it seems. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 15:06:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My personal theory is that the primordials are not and never have been from Toril. They're from somewhere else, and the Dawn War was them trying to invade Toril and take it over for themselves. All that rot about them being from Toril and then Ao retconning I mean, twinning an oddly non-twin world for them, that's just PR spread by the followers of those primordials. I'm also inclined to say that everything we know about the Spellplague is wrong; it was another attempt of the primordials to flee their dying world and invade Abeir-Toril again.
Yeah, I'll retcon a retcon to try to make it into something that doesn't break all prior lore.
Agreed on this idea.... at least that we should make it that Ao didn't "twin a world" all of a sudden. From 4e we have something from the FR player's guide that Abeir orbits the same sun and shares the same moon. The two worlds are essentially trying to occupy the same space.
It would work to me that the "release of the primordials" actually tried to "transport" Abeir INTO the space where Toril currently exists. Maybe this caused a new moon made of ice to appear above the world in which red dragon eggs had been entrapped. Maybe whenever the moon and sun align in some specific way it triggers a future realignment of Abeir and Toril (which really adds a bit of nastiness to what Vhostym the Sojourner did with causing the moon to shift and correspondingly a bunch of dragon eggs to rain down). To note, I bet many of us picture the Sundering as happening in moments, but it may have actually have been decades (in fact, probably was). For all we know, given that the Githyanki have some kind of relationship with red dragons, the sojourner may have been paying back some kind of debt to Tiamat.
Let me add that I'm not sure I like what I'm about to write, but in theory, it might be that Coliar was "born" as part of this transference. It is essentially a great collection of earthmotes and "watermotes", and if Abeir was known for one thing, it was earthmotes. So, if Abeir was a world surrounded by orbiting earthmotes and watermotes that orbited WAAYYYY out (remember Coliar :Size G - 40,000-100,000 miles in diameter: orbits out to roughly 10 TIMES the diameter of Toril :Size E - 4,000-10,000 miles in diameter: ... so in terms of VOLUME, that's 1 thousand times the volume... granted far from solid, but just showing that Toril/Abeir at the center takes up very little space). Correspondingly, this is also when the Aeaeree show up on Toril following this sundering.... so a people very involved with Air magic from a place with earth and water islands are heralded with the raining down of "fire dragon" eggs.
So, maybe Abeir was an attempt to phase in another world, one surrounded by thousands of orbiting earth motes. Maybe it was an attempt to transport Toril OUT of realmspace as part of phasing IN of the new world. Maybe the pathway IN was via something like the spirit world, which is supposed to lie right alongside Toril (and in some areas of Toril replaces the astral... i.e. Kara-Tur, possibly Maztica/Anchorome, etc...), such that traversing to Abeir is actually just traversing to the spirit world. Then, when Abeir doesn't displace Toril, some "bonds" to the floating earthmotes break away and Coliar is born as this "spinning collective" of earthmotes is drawn into a new orbit. Meanwhile, some of these earthmotes slammed into Toril in various spots and the survivors became the Aearee. There may have even been separately "a crystal sun" and "an ice moon" that orbited that world of Abeir that both tried to transfer in. The destruction of the "crystal sun" may have built the steelsky around Abeir, and the ice moon may have been what crashed to Toril making the sea of fallen stars.
To note as well... it may very well have been that the Sarrukh and batrachi empires were on the planet Abeir, and the "changing of the stars" was their world being displaced INTO Toril/realmspace. In other words, they may have been the invaders.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Jun 2022 15:18:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 16:35:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note as well... it may very well have been that the Sarrukh and batrachi empires were on the planet Abeir, and the "changing of the stars" was their world being displaced INTO Toril/realmspace. In other words, they may have been the invaders.
I've noted that the phrase "changing of the stars" is incredibly vague... And as I see it, it doesn't necessary mean existing stars disappeared and new stars appeared -- stars change on a seasonal basis. It could also mean they were in unfamiliar positions. So "changing of the stars" could be as simple as winter stars showing during summer and vice versa, or it could have been that Toril's orbit changed so that it was familiar stars but in new positions.
It could have also been some atmospheric change, making the normal stars brighter/less bright and/or changing their colors. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 20:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To note as well... it may very well have been that the Sarrukh and batrachi empires were on the planet Abeir, and the "changing of the stars" was their world being displaced INTO Toril/realmspace. In other words, they may have been the invaders.
I've noted that the phrase "changing of the stars" is incredibly vague... And as I see it, it doesn't necessary mean existing stars disappeared and new stars appeared -- stars change on a seasonal basis. It could also mean they were in unfamiliar positions. So "changing of the stars" could be as simple as winter stars showing during summer and vice versa, or it could have been that Toril's orbit changed so that it was familiar stars but in new positions.
It could have also been some atmospheric change, making the normal stars brighter/less bright and/or changing their colors.
Yep, could have been many things. Could have been the atmosphere getting clouded over by debris. I'm just throwing out ideas to see what sounds like a good twist, and I've thrown out several revolving around the creation of Coliar recently (and purposes of various planets). I do know that the sudden creation of a new "out of phase" world isn't something I'm very fond of, which it seems like you aren't either. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36813 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2022 : 23:08:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yep, could have been many things. Could have been the atmosphere getting clouded over by debris. I'm just throwing out ideas to see what sounds like a good twist, and I've thrown out several revolving around the creation of Coliar recently (and purposes of various planets). I do know that the sudden creation of a new "out of phase" world isn't something I'm very fond of, which it seems like you aren't either.
I can't stand the idea, honestly; I think it creates way too many problems. That's why I lean towards my idea that it's all PR and that the world the primordials came from is somewhere else (maybe not even on the Prime) entirely. I'm also thinking that world may not have been their homeworld, and that there was one or more shattered worlds left in their wake. Maybe something about the primordials has a destabilizing effect that eventually drains or even destroys worlds. Or maybe there's something behind the primordials that even they fear, so they have to flee from it periodically. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jun 2022 23:09:09 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
525 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2022 : 00:45:58
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I wanted to chime in an say I am enjoying this scroll. I don't have much to add since I have been trying to work out just how the multiverse works in my home Realms. It all started with figuring out how souls interact with the afterlife, then I ended up on a tangent looking into truly ancient species, which led me to wondering just when the creation of Toril occurred and when the War of Light and Dark happened relative to other cosmic events. Ideally I would like to stick to as much lore as possible, this includes not ruling out Planescape material. I know "godly events are outside time", but sometimes that just isn't enough for me. Like when Toril came into being was the Blood War already old? How far back in time did the Illithid Empire send ships? Where do Aboleths, Spell Weavers, and the Juna fall? It quickly turns into a tangled ball of wires but all part of the fun.
Anyway, Ed did a few articles on the Nine Hells in Dragon 75 p.16 and Dragon 76 p.22 and Dragon 91 p. 18. There is a bit of info on how Bane specifically interacts with Devils. Maybe those would be helpful to people here. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Archdemons and Devils - what is their role?
