| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 07:55:18
|
Hey,
What do people think of the whole arc of the Kingdom of Many Arrows? What started as an attempt to give the North a bit more color with an orc kingdom became the basis of a four book story arc by RA Salvatore.
The sudden and ignominious destruction of it really left a sour taste in my mouth.
I would have liked to have seen if they'd let it become a "civilized" kingdom and maybe even added orcs as a PC race. Maybe it will be the origin of the Goliaths in 5th Edition.
|
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 13:45:38
|
Here's my review on Goodreads of THE ORC KING that summarizes much of my feelings:
"THE ORC KING is one of those books that I can't help but think about the result of executive meddling. It is a rather tragic but the story is all about putting faith in the idea that cycles of violence as well as generational hatred can be left behind. Dwarves vs. Orcs in this case is something that RA Salvatore would very much like to resolve in a peaceful way. However, like Spider-Man and his rogues gallery, he doesn't own Drizzt Do'Urden or Dungeons and Dragons so we know that eventually the peace will break down.
Orcs must be the enemy and dwarves must slay them, no matter how depressing that may be."
"Still, there's a lot to love about this story. Drizzt and Bruenor can't beat the orc horde through force of arms. For every orc they cut down, three more take their place and the only reason they haven't been destroyed is Obould has...stopped. The Silver Marches could bring the full force of their military against Obould but if he's not pressing forward then what's the point? It's a terrible situation and there's no easy answer. Is peace worth the cost if you have to cede territory to conquerors? The book argues, perhaps, yes." |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 23:36:20
|
I was... uncertain about the dwarves burying their animosity for orcs. And I was way more uncertain about a god of conquest telling his mortal champion "hey, settle down and make peace with your neighbors."
I think now that the idea of an orc kingdom, coexisting in a perhaps uneasy peace with its neighbors, is a workable one -- but not the way Many-Arrows came about. It would have been far more plausible, to me, if the Kingdom formed elsewhere and then expanded to the point of having neighbors, instead of "hey, we just launched an unprovoked war against you and took your land, but let's all be friends now, mmmkay?" Of course, that doesn't sell novels. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 01:07:17
|
| FWIW, I really thought the series jumped the shark after the Orc King in large part because of the abrupt 4E transition (though some of the stories were losing some of their originality even before then). That said, it irked more than a little that Gruumsh was sponsoring Obould. It should have been Ilneval or Luthic, either of whom is more strategic and better at playing the long game than Gruumsh has ever been portrayed. Aside from that (and the far too obvious name of the orc hating group the CCC), I kind of enjoyed the back and forth with smart Obould. After that, the time jump sort of screwed everything up royally and I don't think the series ever recovered. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 03:36:12
|
If I'd been given the task of building an orc kingdom, I'd've left Gruumsh out entirely... I'd've had one or more scro take control of an orc tribe, start their own Dukagsh routine, and build the orcs up that way. After the orcs had adopted this new ways, then they can expand and build a kingdom. (Maybe the scro were stranded, maybe they were an advance unit sent in to cause trouble before a planned scro attack that never happened)
That said, I am also a huge fan of the scro, and of Spelljammer in general, so I lean into that. An alternative (and more workable) idea would be a particularly charismatic half-orc doing something similar, whipping his people into a more orderly existence and then expanding.
Gruumsh's involvement with Many-Arrows just never made sense.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 03:47:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I was... uncertain about the dwarves burying their animosity for orcs. And I was way more uncertain about a god of conquest telling his mortal champion "hey, settle down and make peace with your neighbors."
I thought Gruumsh was simply playing the long game initially. The orcs will create a nation and that will allow them to prepare for invasion of other territories in the future. Then again, I hate the idea Gruumsh is an idiot. He's a Greater God and should be a genius far beyond mortals. Mind you, I've never liked the treatment of orcs as dumb muscle and feel like giving their thing to Hobgoblins was a mistake.
It's just Obould went entirely off script.
quote:
I think now that the idea of an orc kingdom, coexisting in a perhaps uneasy peace with its neighbors, is a workable one -- but not the way Many-Arrows came about. It would have been far more plausible, to me, if the Kingdom formed elsewhere and then expanded to the point of having neighbors, instead of "hey, we just launched an unprovoked war against you and took your land, but let's all be friends now, mmmkay?" Of course, that doesn't sell novels.
I think it was Bob Salvatore's take on the subject clashing with Wizard of the Coast's plans. One thing I do like about RAS is the fact that he's perfectly happy to grab something he thinks is cool from the main campaign setting and make use of it. In this case, the Kingdom of Many Arrows in 3rd Edition was not meant to be a "beginning of a peaceful orc civilization."
I believe the Kingdom of Many Arrows was created as a way to give the orcs back some of their dignity and take advantage of the recently-released Lord of the Rings movies. A reminder that orcs are in fact actually iconic Dungeons and Dragons villains and should be terrifying. What better way to show they're terrifying than them carving a nation out of the Silver Marches and making them an existential threat to the alliance there. Indeed, the Silver Marches could well be have formed in response to the fact the orcs have become an organized threat.
As we can tell, that's NOT the direction RAS went with it.
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
FWIW, I really thought the series jumped the shark after the Orc King in large part because of the abrupt 4E transition (though some of the stories were losing some of their originality even before then). That said, it irked more than a little that Gruumsh was sponsoring Obould. It should have been Ilneval or Luthic, either of whom is more strategic and better at playing the long game than Gruumsh has ever been portrayed. Aside from that (and the far too obvious name of the orc hating group the CCC), I kind of enjoyed the back and forth with smart Obould. After that, the time jump sort of screwed everything up royally and I don't think the series ever recovered.
I guess I tend to view Gruumsh as more akin to Darkseid and Bahgtru as his version of Kalibak. Gruumsh is very STRAIGHT FORWARD as a deity but he's not stupid. After all, we have a list of vast numbers of human kingdoms and elven kingdoms that have been destroyed by Gruumsh's people. I suppose I figured that by making Obould his Chosen, Gruumsh was planning to make a center of power for orcs in the region.
Sort of a Silvery Marches version of Thar. I think Gruumsh knows the value of territory after all since basic logistics isn't going to be beyond him. Places to breed, arm, provision, and construct new weaponry.
I think RAS' idea that the orcs would become a bunch of peace-loving types after conquering land is a kind of bizarre premise, though, since historically conquering hordes don't just settle down. Also, doubly weird since Gruumsh is like Lolth and a toxic influence on his people.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I'd been given the task of building an orc kingdom, I'd've left Gruumsh out entirely... I'd've had one or more scro take control of an orc tribe, start their own Dukagsh routine, and build the orcs up that way. After the orcs had adopted this new ways, then they can expand and build a kingdom. (Maybe the scro were stranded, maybe they were an advance unit sent in to cause trouble before a planned scro attack that never happened)
That said, I am also a huge fan of the scro, and of Spelljammer in general, so I lean into that. An alternative (and more workable) idea would be a particularly charismatic half-orc doing something similar, whipping his people into a more orderly existence and then expanding.
Gruumsh's involvement with Many-Arrows just never made sense.
My problems with the Scro is basically the same problem I have with Hobgoblins in that at some point someone decided to move the orcs from being Lawful Evil minions with an iconic role in the Dungeons and Dragons universe as being the go-to minions and then making them a bunch of primitive cavemen who can't bang two rocks together to make fire. Basically, they went from being Tolkien's "guys who are incredibly clever and masters of making war" to being Frank Frazettea's neanderthals.
I like the Scro just fine but they should only have a technological advantage. Orcs should be able to build their own little empires and conquest in the Realms. Mind you, I've always disliked the, "X race is too stupid and needs Y race to show them how to do it." Which is the basic plot behind the Giants series and the introduction of the Drow. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
Edited by - Charles Phipps on 10 Apr 2022 04:02:27 |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 17:11:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The sudden and ignominious destruction of it really left a sour taste in my mouth.
I would have liked to have seen if they'd let it become a "civilized" kingdom and maybe even added orcs as a PC race.
I agree that seeing a mountain give birth to a dead mouse is annoying, but...
What would the Many Arrows orcs be? The second-rate Scro?
The Zakharan orcs can work as a PC race trivially, because they are fully assimilated as the Enlightened, and within a suitable framework like this their natural quirks are not a big deal.
What would Many Arrows PC orcs be? An unwashed crowd of defective Drizzt clones? 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I'd been given the task of building an orc kingdom, I'd've left Gruumsh out entirely... I'd've had one or more scro take control of an orc tribe, start their own Dukagsh routine, and build the orcs up that way. After the orcs had adopted this new ways, then they can expand and build a kingdom. (Maybe the scro were stranded, maybe they were an advance unit sent in to cause trouble before a planned scro attack that never happened)
...
Gruumsh's involvement with Many-Arrows just never made sense.
Obould can be "Gruumsh's divine viceroy", and in this role function much like Dukagsh. The blessed one to lead and show the way, and now oversee and advice his followers. It works.
It's just that the scro had their entire existence focused on a simple vision they could understand and appreciate. The huge carrot hanging before them: "we are not ultimately defeated if we'll make the comeback, so prepare for that day, then show the elves who's the boss". And then, throwing themselves into the great war.
What is supposed to motivate the orcs of Many Arrows? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
|
|
deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 18:46:05
|
Technically there should be plenty of orc kingdoms in the mountains throughout Faerun, it's just we haven't gotten much information about them. I would also like to more focus towards their point of view, to see a somewhat more humane and empathic representation of them (as well as goblinoids), but for them still to be orcs, still have a martial-based culture and for them to have somewhat complicated relations with other humanoids of Faerun. I would definitely love to see orc cultures that have other orcish deities than Gruumsh as their primary deity. Some could also have orcish or half-orcish aspects of Faerunian gods that they worship as well (like the High Forest orcs that worship Herne the Hunter, an aspect of Malar).
However I think elves and dwarves would be the least likely to be tolerant of them because of their history. Especially dwarves, since orcs very often occupy ancient dwarf holds, and they obviously would have no interest in handing them back. |
Edited by - deserk on 10 Apr 2022 18:46:48 |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 06:11:49
|
I suppose I feel like the Scro are a double-edged sword. The Scro introduction to the Spelljammer verse gave the Elven Navy a badly needed enemy other than the Neogi and Illithids as well as got rid of a lot of stereotypes with orcs but I wished it wasn't assumed they were THAT different to begin with.
Hobgoblins are supposedly basically everything the Scro are anyway and yet we almost never see the Hobgoblins forming the massive armies of orcs and conquering lands the way the orcs do. Because the Hobgoblins will never be as iconic as the orcs.
So I'd just make Orcs less stupid and barbaric overall. I think Skyrim does a good job with their orcs (bizarre breeding practices aside). The orcs are intelligent, well known for their craftsmanship (it is ugly but functional), and dangerous warrior peoples who live on the edge of society. However, they are still able to be found in communities and in mercenary groups throughout. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 21:26:02
|
I think Lord Karsus has the right of it. It was all in the execution because Obould clearly shifted away from both the evil and chaos of the orcs. To the extent that Gruumsh is more of an unpredictable and destructive force of nature, what Obould created is almost the antithesis of that, but playing the long game is something we know Luthic cares about and Ilneval plays more for strategy.
I like that they changed orcs from LE to CE with 3E because it makes them different from the goblinoids and I think it's generally played out well. That said, I don't think all the orc gods should be CE, but I do think Gruumsh should be. I think most should be NE given the way they've been presented over the editions. |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 22:01:14
|
| Honestly, I'd prefer Gruumsh to be the Lawful Evil one and the "Chief's God" who wants to conquer and create Orcworld but I think that ship has sailed. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2022 : 02:20:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I'd been given the task of building an orc kingdom, I'd've left Gruumsh out entirely... I'd've had one or more scro take control of an orc tribe, start their own Dukagsh routine, and build the orcs up that way. After the orcs had adopted this new ways, then they can expand and build a kingdom. (Maybe the scro were stranded, maybe they were an advance unit sent in to cause trouble before a planned scro attack that never happened)
That said, I am also a huge fan of the scro, and of Spelljammer in general, so I lean into that. An alternative (and more workable) idea would be a particularly charismatic half-orc doing something similar, whipping his people into a more orderly existence and then expanding.
Gruumsh's involvement with Many-Arrows just never made sense.
My problems with the Scro is basically the same problem I have with Hobgoblins in that at some point someone decided to move the orcs from being Lawful Evil minions with an iconic role in the Dungeons and Dragons universe as being the go-to minions and then making them a bunch of primitive cavemen who can't bang two rocks together to make fire. Basically, they went from being Tolkien's "guys who are incredibly clever and masters of making war" to being Frank Frazettea's neanderthals.
I like the Scro just fine but they should only have a technological advantage. Orcs should be able to build their own little empires and conquest in the Realms. Mind you, I've always disliked the, "X race is too stupid and needs Y race to show them how to do it." Which is the basic plot behind the Giants series and the introduction of the Drow.
My thinking for having scro behind the formation of Many-Arrows has nothing to do with saying "orcs are too stupid." My thinking is scro developed from orcs... They are orcs, really, they just have a different culture. Scro know how orcs think, they know how orcs communicate. And they've got Dukagsh as an example for what Obould was trying to do: remake orcs into something better. Being related to orcs, knowing how to relate to them, and being an example of what orcs can be makes them excellent candidates for helping orcs along.
While I agree that orcs should be able to build their empires and such, the problem is that the status quo in the North, at least as far as orcs are concerned, hadn't changed much for thousands of years -- and if that status quo hasn't changed, it doesn't make a lot of sense for orcs to suddenly undergo a very dramatic change and essentially adopt an entirely new culture.
Really, that applies to any people, not just orcs. Dramatic cultural shifts don't happen in a short period of time without some outside factor.
I do think orcs are capable of forging a kingdom or an empire. They just need the right environment and the right leadership. The leadership can arise from within, but it's got to happen in an environment that will support it. Give them the right resources and a reason to look inward at themselves instead of outward at their neighbors, leave them alone for a few generations, and while it may not be much like Cormyr, you'll have a stable orc kingdom. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
953 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2022 : 23:26:21
|
I postulate many players and DM's confuse Gruumsh with Baghtru, to piggyback on Charles Phipps' earlier comment. Gruumsh is about fighting spirit and long-plotted (Darkseid) revenge against the other races' gods as well as conquest. Baghtru is "Hrr! Grr! Hulk Smash!" and unreasoning (Kalibak) rage.
My understanding is Ilneval, Luthic, Shargas and Yurtrus have higher status in the orc pantheon than Baghtru. This would imply orcs place a higher value on military strategy, replenishing orc numbers, stealth and black ops, and "biological warfare" than on sheer brute force. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2022 : 01:12:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
I postulate many players and DM's confuse Gruumsh with Baghtru, to piggyback on Charles Phipps' earlier comment. Gruumsh is about fighting spirit and long-plotted (Darkseid) revenge against the other races' gods as well as conquest. Baghtru is "Hrr! Grr! Hulk Smash!" and unreasoning (Kalibak) rage.
My understanding is Ilneval, Luthic, Shargas and Yurtrus have higher status in the orc pantheon than Baghtru. This would imply orcs place a higher value on military strategy, replenishing orc numbers, stealth and black ops, and "biological warfare" than on sheer brute force.
I don't think there's any mistake at all.
This is from his description in Monster Mythology (page 45): "He is a fearsome, brutal god who revels in warfare, and ever seeks new territory for his race." and "And his deep and abiding hatred of the other gods ensures that he strives to achieve such dominion through warfare, constant and unceasing. Gruumsh tolerates no sign of peaceability from his people."
Faiths and Pantheons (page 149) lists his dogma as "Seek unceasing war against your enemies, and kill or enslave those that oppose you."
His overall description, in multiple places, doesn't refer to using strategy or planning or black ops -- he's all about brute force. Lines like "Those that are too weak to fight for your tribe should be put to the spear" (also page 149, F&P) show that all he cares about is strength, which is one of his portfolios.
And Monster Mythology also says "Gruumsh's avatar cannot be pacified by any means (emotion, charm, suggestion, etc.) once combat has begun." -- which is pretty darn "Hulk smash!" right there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2022 : 02:04:22
|
I mean, Gruumsh is by no means a pleasant god but unceasing warfare and conquest is a fairly common mindset in te ancient world. He wants to conquer the world, or, being a god, the entire multiverse.
The tactics aren't mentioned for this but presumably Gruumsh would have no problem using whatever means necessary to do so. I basically have the same opinion about classic Klingons. They're a bunch of war-obsessed nutters but the ultimate honor is in victory not fair play and whatever means to get it.
That's just my preferred interpretation of it, though. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2022 : 14:39:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I mean, Gruumsh is by no means a pleasant god but unceasing warfare and conquest is a fairly common mindset in te ancient world. He wants to conquer the world, or, being a god, the entire multiverse.
The tactics aren't mentioned for this but presumably Gruumsh would have no problem using whatever means necessary to do so. I basically have the same opinion about classic Klingons. They're a bunch of war-obsessed nutters but the ultimate honor is in victory not fair play and whatever means to get it.
That's just my preferred interpretation of it, though.
I would suggest you read The Final Reflection by John M Ford if you want to get insight into Klingon society. It is considered the definitive depiction and effectively destroys the two dimension portrayal of Klingons. Sadly, there isn't one, and will likely never be one, for Orcs. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
|
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
|
|
TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2022 : 16:01:18
|
| Then you are familiar with Komerex. For those not familiar with Klingon society, that is the Klingon philosophy of that which does not grow, dies. That could work for Orcs and could be even something that Gruumsh would consider a core tenant. It would change Orcs from just crazed killers to a group that has a goal (expansion) and haven't realized yet that not everyone else has to die for them to make progress on that goal. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
|
|
|
|
Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2022 : 16:04:21
|
To be fair, the other people dying is a plus in Gruumsh's view.
However, I view him as a war deity and that glorious death in battle isn't a downside in the view. I feel Obould went a little overboard in his civilization as he forgot that expansion is part of what makes orcs well. The problem is they remained isolated so when they did resume war, everyone ganged up on them and destroyed them. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
The Kingdom of Many-Arrows
