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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Mar 2022 : 18:13:18
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Hey folks,
Long time no speak. It's been a very-very long time since I've posted here and my life changed a great deal. Became a scifi and fantasy author, got married, plus fell out of reading the Forgotten Realms. How long ago was it that I stopped keeping up? Well, I left because of Fourth Edition and the Spellplague.
Yeah, THAT long ago.
I was curious what are good places to get caught back up with Forgotten Realms fiction and the changes that have occurred to the setting that occupied so much of my time growing up.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2022 : 19:11:53
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| -I'm still trying to figure it all out too, man. The Second Sundering was some kind of thing that happened, and it reversed some of the stuff that happened in 4e but not everything, but we don't fully know. One thing I've noticed is that details about everything has become extremely sparse, and I guess intentionally so? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 05 Mar 2022 19:13:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2022 : 23:22:18
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If you left because of the Spellplague, then there is no fiction to get back into, unless you like a certain purple-eyed ranger.
We had the Sundering novels to kind of intro 5E, and that was it for WotC giving us fiction.
And as LK says, details have been sparse, since then. There seems to be a determined effort to not fill in any blanks or provide any details. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2022 : 01:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I was curious what are good places to get caught back up with Forgotten Realms fiction and the changes that have occurred to the setting that occupied so much of my time growing up.
Are you interested only in post-Sundering 5e era novels, or are 4e-but-readable novels also something you would look at? |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2022 : 05:20:51
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I'm pretty much a babe in the woods here so I'll take anything anyone wants to talk about.
*writes down READ SUNDERING*
I picked up the Rhime of the Frostmaiden and decided to get back into the Realms. From what I've gathered, a lot of what normally would be in a new campaign setting is spread around in adventure modules for 5th Edition. Like if I want to learn about the return of Bhaal, I have to read MURDER IN BADLUR'S GATE.
The wiki was very helpful in giving me a basic overview of events and trying to figure out where to get all the various information on the shift from 4th Edition to 5th Edition would be very helpful.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Second_Sundering
Everything I've picked up being:
+ It's still a century in the future.
+ The wholesale missing continents are returned. Good for Evermeet.
+ The Netherese, overpowered Shar worshiping schmucks that they were, have been mostly killed off so you don't know why they haven't conquered everything anymore.
+ Most of the Old Gods are back in the saddle again.
+ Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane are now quasi-deities, which makes me wonder because Bane should be a Greater Deity and has suffered big time if
he's now someone the player characters can actually kill-kill.
+ Shar is no longer the Big Bad of the setting. Which is good because
I think she was overexposed by 3rd Edition and became OP by 4th.
+ The horrible idea of making the Drow irredeemable or redeemable Dark Elves is gone. The old Drow gods are back.
+ However, the orcs are back to being stupid cannibal always evil monsters. Which is silly given Goliaths, Tieflings, and other races are around. It's a pity because the peaceful Kingdom of Many Arrows was a fantastic idea. I don't know what they were thinking.
+ No one actually knows WHAT the Hell the Planar Structure of the universe is. Which, fine, that actually makes perfect sense.
+ Exarchs are basically quietly shoved under the table and we're back to Chosen.
+ Deities are no longer able to/willing to send Avatars down. This means that Tiamat showing up in the modules is a big deal because she's Cthulhu arriving versus Bahamut and her throwing down if she does. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 06 Mar 2022 11:10:50 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2022 : 16:02:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
+ Most of the Old Gods are back in the saddle again.
+ Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane are now quasi-deities, which makes me wonder because Bane should be a Greater Deity and has suffered big time if
he's now someone the player characters can actually kill-kill.
Officially, all of the old gods are back. But this is clearly not the case, since Tyche, Valigan Thirdborn, Ibrandul, and a lot of others are not back. So "all" clearly does not mean all... And they can't even say something like "well, it's all of them that were active during the ToT" because Ibrandul was killed during the ToT.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
+ Shar is no longer the Big Bad of the setting. Which is good because
I think she was overexposed by 3rd Edition and became OP by 4th.
It was ridiculous how much they did with Shar in those eras.
Of course, they're still pushing their faction thing, so we've still got some ridiculousness going on when it comes to what power groups are involved in any given thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
+ The horrible idea of making the Drow irredeemable or redeemable Dark Elves is gone. The old Drow gods are back.
Instead, they've decided to push new horrible ideas and basically invalidate huge chunks of drow lore. While I agree that the 3E/4E approaches to drow were wrong, it seems like WotC just keeps swinging from one extreme to the other. They're desperate to keep attention on drow, so now we get new flavors of drow.
Sure, they're adding more options and nuance to the drow, but the way they're doing it is "ignore everything we've ever written about drow before, because here's the real story." We've gone from mostly one-dimensional but with a consistent backstory that fits into existing Realmslore to something more plausible for a people but with a weak backstory that breaks everything that came before. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2022 : 16:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Just my opinion but the 5e stuff really isnt worth the effort of getting into. There is little information available, the quality is not great and it doesnt respect the already existing lore.
Not that I'm saying you should get out of the realms and go elsewhere. The 1300s period is still in development by the great minds that created it. George Krashos has done a number of wonderful articles: Layla maurshanta, dude on a horse, high history of impiltur, and many others all on DMs guild. Eric Boyd released his Under Illefarn Anew which adds lots of information in the sword coast north, Eric is also working on 4 or 5 other modules that cover the sword coast and western heartlands and it may include a ton of history and information on elves and dwarves in the area. Ed, Eric, George, and others have released regular videos on YouTube that detail lots of random bits about random places and people. Steven Schend might also be getting back into things with more on Rhymanthiin.
So if you like the older realms it is very much alive and has never been better now that WoTC has stopped destroying it.
I personally like to peruse the new 5e stuff and retrofit the lore back into the old timelines. Fitting Omu into Chult was interesting. Adding in another netherese enclave in icewind dale was likewise challenging. They all add bits to the tapestry and even though I will never develop 5e or play in it, doesnt mean i cant steal bits from it.
I'm going to be honest that I was one of those fans that hated 4th Edition so much that it really did kill my interest in the entire setting. A bit like Dragons of Summer Flame and Dragonlance where I literally read something like 100+ books in my high school years of both it and FR. They are a major part of my childhood alongside the Star Wars Legends universe. I appreciated the "War of Souls" by Dragonlance's Margaret Weis and while I didn't 100% liked that, I was willing to buy the updated setting and keep abreast of news.
So my reaction to this is, "Wow, they are REALLY reversing course on this, aren't they?"
But, it's the kind of thing I want to support as well, ya'know? |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 06 Mar 2022 16:54:51 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2022 : 17:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Officially, all of the old gods are back. But this is clearly not the case, since Tyche, Valigan Thirdborn, Ibrandul, and a lot of others are not back. So "all" clearly does not mean all... And they can't even say something like "well, it's all of them that were active during the ToT" because Ibrandul was killed during the ToT.
Well you don't need to be absolutist about these sort of things, even if I think Bhaal should have stayed dead because Baldur's Gate is a classic iconic part of Realms lore. It's not like Tyche and Amaunator weren't gods that had died in the past/became other gods. I mean, no one was clamoring for Xvim or Moander to come back, were they? It's just a lot of popular well-liked gods were killed for no good reason and utterly upset the sense of cosmology in the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooley Rupert
It was ridiculous how much they did with Shar in those eras.
I actually quite like Shar but I felt like the character was something that didn't fit the narrow role they wanted to put her into. You can't make the goddess of depression, oblivion, and who wants to end everything into the full-on Big Bad for everyone. That didn't even work that well for Tolkien and Morgoth. It's better to have a goddess like Takhasis or Bane who wants to conquer the world and appeals to the generically evil versus self-destructive.
And apparently Shar can run rings around Mystra, Mask, and every other god? Where the Hell are the other gods of good? **** man, there's literal gods of LIGHT and they don't have anything to say about this?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooley Rupert
Of course, they're still pushing their faction thing, so we've still got some ridiculousness going on when it comes to what power groups are involved in any given thing.
Factions seems like it would be tailor made for the Realms too, which is strange. After all, this is the setting where there were literally dozens of evil organizations operating simultaneously and at cross purposes. Also, the game that introduced the Harpers when the idea of the players being part of a larger network of adventurers was a pretty new idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooley Rupert
Instead, they've decided to push new horrible ideas and basically invalidate huge chunks of drow lore. While I agree that the 3E/4E approaches to drow were wrong, it seems like WotC just keeps swinging from one extreme to the other. They're desperate to keep attention on drow, so now we get new flavors of drow.
Sure, they're adding more options and nuance to the drow, but the way they're doing it is "ignore everything we've ever written about drow before, because here's the real story." We've gone from mostly one-dimensional but with a consistent backstory that fits into existing Realmslore to something more plausible for a people but with a weak backstory that breaks everything that came before.
Alas, you're going to have to assume I have NO IDEA what you're talking about as part of why this thread exists is the fact that I'm only wandering into the party off the street. I don't know what developments have been made with the drow or even orcs for that matter beyond what I've already mentioned. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 06 Mar 2022 17:06:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 04:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Officially, all of the old gods are back. But this is clearly not the case, since Tyche, Valigan Thirdborn, Ibrandul, and a lot of others are not back. So "all" clearly does not mean all... And they can't even say something like "well, it's all of them that were active during the ToT" because Ibrandul was killed during the ToT.
Well you don't need to be absolutist about these sort of things, even if I think Bhaal should have stayed dead because Baldur's Gate is a classic iconic part of Realms lore. It's not like Tyche and Amaunator weren't gods that had died in the past/became other gods. I mean, no one was clamoring for Xvim or Moander to come back, were they? It's just a lot of popular well-liked gods were killed for no good reason and utterly upset the sense of cosmology in the setting.
I, for one, was happier without the Dead Three. And I think it's really problematic to have the Dead Three and their replacements around at the same time.
And I'm not trying to be absolutist -- I'm just pointing out that there are certain expectations for the word "all" and what we have here isn't even close to that. We don't even have all the deities around that were there for the Time of Troubles.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooley Rupert
Of course, they're still pushing their faction thing, so we've still got some ridiculousness going on when it comes to what power groups are involved in any given thing.
Factions seems like it would be tailor made for the Realms too, which is strange. After all, this is the setting where there were literally dozens of evil organizations operating simultaneously and at cross purposes. Also, the game that introduced the Harpers when the idea of the players being part of a larger network of adventurers was a pretty new idea.
The problem is that the Realms wasn't meant to have unified, continent-spanning factions. Even the larger factions like the Zhents and the Harpers were more like semi-independent franchises, rather than one large, monolithic organization. In earlier editions, most of the factions of the Realms were very localized.
But what WotC has decided to do was take some of those factions, and make them be unified, continent-spanning organizations. And they're involved everywhere, even if they were previously regional -- every faction has to have some mention in every adventure, even if there's no reason for them to even be in that part of the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooley Rupert
Instead, they've decided to push new horrible ideas and basically invalidate huge chunks of drow lore. While I agree that the 3E/4E approaches to drow were wrong, it seems like WotC just keeps swinging from one extreme to the other. They're desperate to keep attention on drow, so now we get new flavors of drow.
Sure, they're adding more options and nuance to the drow, but the way they're doing it is "ignore everything we've ever written about drow before, because here's the real story." We've gone from mostly one-dimensional but with a consistent backstory that fits into existing Realmslore to something more plausible for a people but with a weak backstory that breaks everything that came before.
Alas, you're going to have to assume I have NO IDEA what you're talking about as part of why this thread exists is the fact that I'm only wandering into the party off the street. I don't know what developments have been made with the drow or even orcs for that matter beyond what I've already mentioned.
Take a dive into this discussion: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24002 |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 14:35:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I'm pretty much a babe in the woods here so I'll take anything anyone wants to talk about.
I can go through what I personally understand of some of what you've put down. For what I in particular have read of the 5e era, however, I've gone through:
- Drizzt books (not the most recent ones, I cut bait after the last trilogy ended on a silly note for me and had been steadily degrading for a while beforehand).
- Spellstorm & Death Masks (both from Ed, and set in the 5e era; they're fairly standard Ed fare).
- Brimstone Angels (I did a thing here and jumped in at Fire in the Blood, then skipped the next one and went right to The Devil You Know; I had my own reasons for it I'd be happy to explain elsewhere).
- Most of the adventures in the 5e era, some more in-depth than others (some I have played rather than read, so my recollection of those will be mixed up with what the DM chose to do).
- Some of the streamed games, which are run by Chris Perkins and he has set them in Faerun (Dice Camera Action started with Curse of Strahd, then does some Storm King's Thunder, then goes to Chult, then back to Waterdeep).
quote:
From what I've gathered, a lot of what normally would be in a new campaign setting is spread around in adventure modules for 5th Edition. Like if I want to learn about the return of Bhaal, I have to read MURDER IN BADLUR'S GATE.
This isn't wholly the case - you would want to look at the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide as well, for example. But it is generally true that the majority of novels that were published in the "5e period" (which I would take to be approximately 1486-ish onwards, though others might bump that to 1488 or later) are divorced from the game proper. In other words, you won't need to read Death Masks or know anything at all about what happens in it to run Waterdeep: Dragon Heist, even though both take place in the same city (Waterdeep) and the novel was about a year or two prior to the adventure. You absolutely can do that if you want, and incorporate the novel's material and events into your campaign. But WotC have consciously moved away from interconnecting everything. The closest they have come to it was in the early-5e period and late 4e, but that was during the Sundering and they have distanced themselves from it since.
Out of the Abyss, for example, does refer to events in the Archmage novel as a setoff point, but you don't need Archmage at all to play the adventure. All the details the DM needs or wants can be found in the adventure background itself. If the DM decides that the events of Archmage happened in their campaign and at their table, then OotA is set around 1486 DR. If the DM does not decide that, then it can be set whenever the DM wants to set it.
quote:
+ It's still a century in the future.
Yes. The current year based on when adventures are set is 1492 DR as of Descent into Avernus. As of Baldur's Gate 3 (the game), it is late 1492. Some adventures take place earlier, such as Rime of the Frostmaiden (winter of 1489 DR), or Rise of Tiamat (1489), and Lost Mines of Phandelver is set in 1491 (Storm King's Thunder is 1490-1491). Acquisitions Incorporated is set in 1496 DR, and is the latest chronological point that WotC have reached.
Some of their streamed games on the D&D Twitch channel or PAX also follow these general dates - I think they're around 1495-1497. So the timeline is progressing, somewhat, but slowly and following adventures along with Adventurer's League organised play.
The important thing to remember here is that these are guidelines. If a DM wants to do the work for their table and set an adventure earlier or later, they can. But the key focus is around D&D tables and campaigns and above all a game set in FR, not FR with a game set in it. (If that makes sense.)
If you do want the "canonical" timeline, then this link should prove helpful:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2020/04/09/the-official-timeline-for-the-forgotten-realms-and-its-adventures/
quote:
+ Myrkul, Bhaal, and Bane are now quasi-deities, which makes me wonder because Bane should be a Greater Deity and has suffered big time if
he's now someone the player characters can actually kill-kill.
The answer to the latter part of this is "probably no". The Dead Three specifically chose not to return to the outer planes when Ao called the gods all home. As a price, they do not have access to what I would call the majority of what they are as gods/Powers, but they can put foot to earth and walk around, spreading cults, engaging in activity, and so on.
Descent Into Avernus goes into some detail (and BG3 will as well, the main plot involves the Dead Three somehow) on what they have been up to and why they chose to do what they did. In other words, it's a hanging plot thread on why they didn't go back, but it's a plot thread that won't be left hanging forever, and is in the process of/will be getting cleared up. My personal speculation, bearing in mind that it is speculation, is that they have opted for a similar position at the moment as Auril in Rime of the Frostmaiden. So, they probably could be killed, but when they are they will most likely just respawn back on the Outer Planes as full gods, just like Auril does if she's killed in Rime.
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It's a pity because the peaceful Kingdom of Many Arrows was a fantastic idea. I don't know what they were thinking.
Orcs aren't always back like that. Many Arrows fell because the leaders at the time were less visionary/advanced than Obould was, with several powerful figures ultimately causing it to decay and fall. Much like many kingdoms that popped up and fell in the North over the centuries, or what goes on in the Border Kingdoms over decades (or, well, months), it couldn't be sustained without the right leaders.
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+ No one actually knows WHAT the Hell the Planar Structure of the universe is. Which, fine, that actually makes perfect sense.
It's tentatively the Great Wheel, or mostly the Great Wheel. But there are things like the Feywild and Shadowfell that have been added in. If you just assume "Great Wheel" you should be fine nine times out of ten, the tenth being an edge case. Or at least, that's what I do.
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+ Exarchs are basically quietly shoved under the table and we're back to Chosen.
Sort of. Exarchs are gone, but it's not just being back to Chosen. There was a period of silence for a year or two while Ao was fixing things up and re-establishing matters. Gods were worried that they wouldn't get a big enough slice of Ao's pie, and started dumping Chosen everywhere (not "big" Chosen, more like people with a few powers and minor blessings and divine sparks) to try and drum up as much support as they could.
A few clever (and evil) mortal wizards and liches noticed this and started hoovering up all these rather weak Chosen, attempting to farm them for their divine sparks and power. Szass Tam built an entire magical ritual dungeon that was designed to channel all these little divine sparks from Chosen he'd collected into his own body. If successful, the collected divine energy could (potentially, he believed) have catapulted him into godhood. Thanks to the efforts of some plucky adventurers, this was foiled and the Realms was saved the horror of Szass Tam as a god.
The Netherese in Shade were also attempting to do this, at the behest of Shar.
Additionally, Asmodeus had taken Azuth's divine spark and fused with him, so when Azuth was freed, Asmodeus had to get another spark from elsewhere to maintain the divine abilities he had added to himself.
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+ Deities are no longer able to/willing to send Avatars down. This means that Tiamat showing up in the modules is a big deal because she's Cthulhu arriving versus Bahamut and her throwing down if she does.
Yes. If they show up, there's usually some sort of price the god has to pay to do it. It would not be done lightly. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Eldacar on 07 Mar 2022 14:37:22 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 15:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, for one, was happier without the Dead Three. And I think it's really problematic to have the Dead Three and their replacements around at the same time.
I get the general logic for bringing back Bane. Cyric was a poor substitute for Bane and this is something that was noticed in SECOND EDITION as a Chaotic Evil murder god doesn't give you a good Lawful Evil conquest and oppression deity. It's why Xvim was elevated to deity-dom. Except Xvim wasn't actually that cool and the Kylo Ren to Bane's Darth Vader. Hence it was a good idea in 3rd Edition to bring him back.
The sauce was made A LONG LONG time ago.
Myrkul is also something that kind of needs a whole filled because Velsharoon suckls. You need an undead and evil horror god to play the role of Vecna. Which, again, Velsharoon sucks at. Kelemvor is an okay god of death, the frigging Wall of the Faithless thing aside, but we needed someone to be the creepy lich god. I wouldn't have minded him returning as a lesser scheming deity.
Bhaal? Eh, famous video game or not, Bhaal and Cyric are basically the same Gods of Evil. It is the one thing Cyric does well.
quote:
The problem is that the Realms wasn't meant to have unified, continent-spanning factions. Even the larger factions like the Zhents and the Harpers were more like semi-independent franchises, rather than one large, monolithic organization. In earlier editions, most of the factions of the Realms were very localized.
But what WotC has decided to do was take some of those factions, and make them be unified, continent-spanning organizations. And they're involved everywhere, even if they were previously regional -- every faction has to have some mention in every adventure, even if there's no reason for them to even be in that part of the Realms.
I don't have too much trouble with this because the Zhentarim were meant to be a trading organization so they could be up to no good from Cormyr to Waterdeep to Icewind Dale. The portal system also exists in the setting to mean that travel times can and do get royally bunked. YMMV of course.
quote:
Take a dive into this discussion: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24002
That is indeed a lot to unpack.
The funny thing is you don't actually need to change too much of canon to make it true. You could easily have the whole Sundering business have people discover Dark Elves in other countries and continents (or frigging dimensions) that aren't Lolth worshiping Chaotic evil types. This is even canon from Ed Greenwood himself.
https://www.amazon.com/Drow-Underdark-Forgotten-Accessory-Advanced/dp/1560761326
DROW OF THE UNDERDARK established that the Drow of the Realms are the Jungle Elves (which THANK GOD, Ed was smart enough not to use as an actual name) that were corrupted by Lolth and once had a vast civilization on Toril. So it's not an unprecedented idea that there might be survivors of that civilization. Maybe even established contact with groups of them living in, say, Zhakara which has always been the racism-free section of Toril.
I'm guessing that's not the way they went, though. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 07 Mar 2022 15:31:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 15:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I, for one, was happier without the Dead Three. And I think it's really problematic to have the Dead Three and their replacements around at the same time.
I get the general logic for bringing back Bane. Cyric was a poor substitute for Bane and this is something that was noticed in SECOND EDITION as a Chaotic Evil murder god doesn't give you a good Lawful Evil conquest and oppression deity. It's why Xvim was elevated to deity-dom. Except Xvim wasn't actually that cool and the Kylo Ren to Bane's Darth Vader. Hence it was a good idea in 3rd Edition to bring him back.
The sauce was made A LONG LONG time ago.
Myrkul is also something that kind of needs a whole filled because Velsharoon suckls. You need an undead and evil horror god to play the role of Vecna. Which, again, Velsharoon sucks at. Kelemvor is an okay god of death, the frigging Wall of the Faithless thing aside, but we needed someone to be the creepy lich god. I wouldn't have minded him returning as a lesser scheming deity.
Bhaal? Eh, famous video game or not, Bhaal and Cyric are basically the same Gods of Evil. It is the one thing Cyric does well.
I never liked Bane. When I came aboard, all I saw of him was "I'm evil for evil's sake!" Myrkul, similarly, was "Oooh, death is scary!" And Bhaal was just "Gimme something to kill!"
Xvim, I thought, at least had style. And there was a lot of evidence, in 2E and 3E, that Xvim was pretending to be Bane. Of course, now Xvim has been shuffled off to one side so that his daddy can take the spotlight whilst being greatly reduced. 
Myrkul, though -- I LOVED the idea of him being in the Crown of Horns, popping around, causing trouble. I thought he had so much more potential that way than as a deity.
I'm meh on Velsharoon, and I don't see the need for a creepy lich god. I think it's a played-out trope and I was glad to get away from it.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
The problem is that the Realms wasn't meant to have unified, continent-spanning factions. Even the larger factions like the Zhents and the Harpers were more like semi-independent franchises, rather than one large, monolithic organization. In earlier editions, most of the factions of the Realms were very localized.
But what WotC has decided to do was take some of those factions, and make them be unified, continent-spanning organizations. And they're involved everywhere, even if they were previously regional -- every faction has to have some mention in every adventure, even if there's no reason for them to even be in that part of the Realms.
I don't have too much trouble with this because the Zhentarim were meant to be a trading organization so they could be up to no good from Cormyr to Waterdeep to Icewind Dale. The portal system also exists in the setting to mean that travel times can and do get royally bunked. YMMV of course.
Even with portals, though, the Zhents were still not one monolithic organization.
And that doesn't address things like having the Emerald Enclave or the Lords' Alliance or the church of Asmodeus sticking their noses in everywhere.
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Originally posted by Charles Phipps
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Take a dive into this discussion: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24002
That is indeed a lot to unpack.
The funny thing is you don't actually need to change too much of canon to make it true. You could easily have the whole Sundering business have people discover Dark Elves in other countries and continents (or frigging dimensions) that aren't Lolth worshiping Chaotic evil types. This is even canon from Ed Greenwood himself.
https://www.amazon.com/Drow-Underdark-Forgotten-Accessory-Advanced/dp/1560761326
DROW OF THE UNDERDARK established that the Drow of the Realms are the Jungle Elves (which THANK GOD, Ed was smart enough not to use as an actual name) that were corrupted by Lolth and once had a vast civilization on Toril. So it's not an unprecedented idea that there might be survivors of that civilization. Maybe even established contact with groups of them living in, say, Zhakara which has always been the racism-free section of Toril.
I'm guessing that's not the way they went, though.
But it was also canon that all the Illythiiri were turned into dark elves and driven underground, and of those drow that had returned to the surface, their communities small and still followed evil powers.
And in 4E, WotC tried really, really hard to force the drow into that "always irredeemably evil" mode, to the point of getting rid of deities that weren't Lolth.
With 5E, first they backed away from that, then they went this new way with multiple flavors of drow. And this new approach is, like a lot of the 3E changes, "it's always been like this!" |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Mar 2022 15:54:14 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 17:31:00
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Originally posted by Eldacar
I can go through what I personally understand of some of what you've put down. For what I in particular have read of the 5e era, however, I've gone through:
- Drizzt books (not the most recent ones, I cut bait after the last trilogy ended on a silly note for me and had been steadily degrading for a while beforehand).
- Spellstorm & Death Masks (both from Ed, and set in the 5e era; they're fairly standard Ed fare).
- Brimstone Angels (I did a thing here and jumped in at Fire in the Blood, then skipped the next one and went right to The Devil You Know; I had my own reasons for it I'd be happy to explain elsewhere).
- Most of the adventures in the 5e era, some more in-depth than others (some I have played rather than read, so my recollection of those will be mixed up with what the DM chose to do).
- Some of the streamed games, which are run by Chris Perkins and he has set them in Faerun (Dice Camera Action started with Curse of Strahd, then does some Storm King's Thunder, then goes to Chult, then back to Waterdeep).
Thanks for these.
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[The answer to the latter part of this is "probably no". The Dead Three specifically chose not to return to the outer planes when Ao called the gods all home. As a price, they do not have access to what I would call the majority of what they are as gods/Powers, but they can put foot to earth and walk around, spreading cults, engaging in activity, and so on.
That's just very confusing as plenty of gods like Tiamat are doing their absolute best in order to get to Faerun with their powers but this makes them vulnerable. Also, you'd think three deities wandering around would be a lot more of a bigger deal than you think. If I were to do this, I would probably make them exceptionally weak quasi-deities and just use them as Sauron or Gannondorf-esque villains for slaying.
Mind you, I have my opinions on slaying Tiamat and Auril as well. My opinion is that if the player characters get to the finality of those adventures and slay the gods then they should damn well have slain the gods.
I have similar feelings on Strahd coming back. What's even the point of the adventure?
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Descent Into Avernus goes into some detail (and BG3 will as well, the main plot involves the Dead Three somehow) on what they have been up to and why they chose to do what they did. In other words, it's a hanging plot thread on why they didn't go back, but it's a plot thread that won't be left hanging forever, and is in the process of/will be getting cleared up. My personal speculation, bearing in mind that it is speculation, is that they have opted for a similar position at the moment as Auril in Rime of the Frostmaiden. So, they probably could be killed, but when they are they will most likely just respawn back on the Outer Planes as full gods, just like Auril does if she's killed in Rime.
Yeah, I was reminded of the Ravenloft 2nd Edition write-ups where EVERY DARK LORD was permanently immortal and it was the dumbest thing I'd ever read in a book. After all, if the games aren't for the player characters then who are they for? The ability to alter the dynamics of a world is something that should be
fundamental to any setting.
If you're going to go through AMAZING lengths to fight Auril and defeat her three times then she should damn well STAY DEAD. It's not like it's killing Takhasis and the entire setting is permanently wrecked (looks at War of Souls).
That's just my opinion, though. Then again, my first Forgotten Realms exposure was the Moonshae Islands where killing Bhaal didn't result in his final death but permanently crippled the deity and made him vulnerable during the Time of Troubles.
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Orcs aren't always back like that. Many Arrows fell because the leaders at the time were less visionary/advanced than Obould was, with several powerful figures ultimately causing it to decay and fall. Much like many kingdoms that popped up and fell in the North over the centuries, or what goes on in the Border
Kingdoms over decades (or, well, months), it couldn't be sustained without the right leaders.
True but there's not exactly any OTHER orcish kingdoms around either. So, it really just returns the orcs to their status quo of being nonentities in the greater scheme of things. Which is a shame for such an iconic race that has only grown in popularity as PC or NPC options.
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It's tentatively the Great Wheel, or mostly the Great Wheel. But there are things like the Feywild and Shadowfell that have been added in. If you just assume "Great Wheel" you should be fine nine times out of ten, the tenth being an edge case. Or at least, that's what I do.
The Great Wheel honestly made no sense to me without Alignment beyond Good and Evil. I might not have liked 4E's "every god has its own realm" but without Alignment, what's the point?
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Sort of. Exarchs are gone, but it's not just being back to Chosen. There was a period of silence for a year or two while Ao was fixing things up and re-establishing matters. Gods were worried that they wouldn't get a big enough slice of Ao's pie, and started dumping Chosen everywhere (not "big" Chosen, more like people with a few powers and minor blessings and divine sparks) to try and drum up as much support as they could.
A few clever (and evil) mortal wizards and liches noticed this and started hoovering up all these rather weak Chosen, attempting to farm them for their divine sparks and power. Szass Tam built an entire magical ritual dungeon that was designed to channel all these little divine sparks from Chosen he'd collected into his own body. If successful, the collected divine energy could (potentially, he believed) have catapulted him into godhood. Thanks to the efforts of some plucky adventurers, this was foiled and the Realms was saved the horror of Szass Tam as a god.
The Netherese in Shade were also attempting to do this, at the behest of Shar.
Additionally, Asmodeus had taken Azuth's divine spark and fused with him, so when Azuth was freed, Asmodeus had to get another spark from elsewhere to maintain the divine abilities he had added to himself.
Ssass Tam becoming a god or trying to become one is so weird because it's normally a time-honored and tested goal of liches as well as archwizards in general. However, Velsharoon, who was already the poor man's Ssass Tam managed to achieve it ahead of him so it seems like a strange sort of thing. Mind you, Velsharoon is a god who isn't worshiped by the Lich King of the largest necrocracy in the realm so he's already kind of garbage at his job. You'd think Tam would steal Velsharoon's deitydom.
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Yes. If they show up, there's usually some sort of price the god has to pay to do it. It would not be done lightly.
I prefer this because of the aforementioned Moonshae Trilogy. Bhaal getting a chance to go on a rampage made sense. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 18:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I never liked Bane. When I came aboard, all I saw of him was "I'm evil for evil's sake!" Myrkul, similarly, was "Oooh, death is scary!" And Bhaal was just "Gimme something to kill!"
I feel like complaining about Bane being "I'm evil for evil's sake" is one that doesn't work since gods are really the place where you can draw a line at being archtypal embodiments versus full three-dimensional character. Bane IS the God of Tyranny, Fear, and Hatred--effectively the embodiment of Medieval fascism.
How does one do a GOD OF EVIL (which is pretty essential to a lot of fantasy) otherwise?
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Xvim, I thought, at least had style. And there was a lot of evidence, in 2E and 3E, that Xvim was pretending to be Bane. Of course, now Xvim has been shuffled off to one side so that his daddy can take the spotlight whilst being greatly reduced.
I think my opinion can be summarized in that if Xvim was impersonating his dad then he clearly didn't have the cachet to be his own man. If your followers need to follow another god to worship you (Fzoul aside) then you have clearly not put on your big boy britches.
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Myrkul, though -- I LOVED the idea of him being in the Crown of Horns, popping around, causing trouble. I thought he had so much more potential that way than as a deity.
I mean the Crown of Horns already made you evil so I wasn't sure what exactly was gained by putting him in it.
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I'm meh on Velsharoon, and I don't see the need for a creepy lich god. I think it's a played-out trope and I was glad to get away from it.
Eh, Lich Gods are a classic staple of Dungeons and Dragons dating back to the Gary Gygax days. They are something that a lot of gamers love (myself included) so I don't think Forgotten Realms as THE D&D setting should be lacking in them. It's just Velsharoon was the poor man's Ssass Tam and that makes him terrible even by comparison to Tam versus Myrkul.
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And that doesn't address things like having the Emerald Enclave or the Lords' Alliance or the church of Asmodeus sticking their noses in everywhere.
The Church of Asmodeus being everywhere makes sense because he's Satan.
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But it was also canon that all the Illythiiri were turned into dark elves and driven underground, and of those drow that had returned to the surface, their communities small and still followed evil powers.
I mean, you can dismiss that with in-universe knowledge. "That's what we THOUGHT."
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And in 4E, WotC tried really, really hard to force the drow into that "always irredeemably evil" mode, to the point of getting rid of deities that weren't Lolth.
Yeah, that was dumb and I don't get their reasoning. I at least get, "the dark skinned people being always evil is a bad thing. Especially since they're one of our most popular races."
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With 5E, first they backed away from that, then they went this new way with multiple flavors of drow. And this new approach is, like a lot of the 3E changes, "it's always been like this!"
I don't mind retcons, I just hope they get decent explanations. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Mar 2022 04:06:18 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 20:19:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I never liked Bane. When I came aboard, all I saw of him was "I'm evil for evil's sake!" Myrkul, similarly, was "Oooh, death is scary!" And Bhaal was just "Gimme something to kill!"
I feel like complaining about Bane being "I'm evil for evil's sake" is one that doesn't work since gods are really the place where you can draw a line at being archtypal embodiments versus full three-dimensional character. Bane IS the God of Tyranny, Fear, and Hatred--effectively the embodiment of Medieval fascism.
How does one do a GOD OF EVIL (which is pretty essential to a lot of fantasy) otherwise?
There's evil with a purpose, and there's "Imma kick a puppy because I'm so evil!" -- and Bane came across as the latter.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Xvim, I thought, at least had style. And there was a lot of evidence, in 2E and 3E, that Xvim was pretending to be Bane. Of course, now Xvim has been shuffled off to one side so that his daddy can take the spotlight whilst being greatly reduced.
I think my opinion can be summarized in that if Xvim was impersonating his dad then he clearly didn't have the cachet to be his own man. If your followers need to follow another god to worship you (Fzoul aside) then you have clearly not put on your big boy britches.
That's going to apply to multiple powers of the Realms, then, including Shar, Lolth, and Cyric -- because divine impersonations of fallen/lesser powers are a common thing.
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Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Myrkul, though -- I LOVED the idea of him being in the Crown of Horns, popping around, causing trouble. I thought he had so much more potential that way than as a deity.
I mean the Crown of Horns already made you evil so I wasn't sure what exactly was gained by putting him in it.
What was gained was that Myrkul could be used more effectively by doing things gods aren't allowed to do, and also doing something with him other than having him standing in a corner looking scary.
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Originally posted by Charles Phipps
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm meh on Velsharoon, and I don't see the need for a creepy lich god. I think it's a played-out trope and I was glad to get away from it.
Eh, Lich Gods are a classic staple of Dungeons and Dragons dating back to the Gary Gygax days. They are something that a lot of gamers love (myself included) so I don't think Forgotten Realms as THE D&D setting should be lacking in them. It's just Velsharoon was the poor man's Ssass Tam and that makes him terrible even by comparison to Tam versus Myrkul.
See, I don't see that just because the creator of something does X that it means it's a good thing.
George Lucas gave us Jar Jar Binks.
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Originally posted by Charles Phipps
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And that doesn't address things like having the Emerald Enclave or the Lords' Alliance or the church of Asmodeus sticking their noses in everywhere.
The Church of Asmodeus being everywhere makes sense because he's Satan.
That still doesn't cover these other major factions all sticking their noses in everywhere.
And honestly, that still doesn't cover it for Asmodeus. All deities of the Faerûnian pantheon are covered everywhere in the continent -- but we don't have every single other church popping up every single time there's something going on.
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Originally posted by Charles Phipps
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But it was also canon that all the Illythiiri were turned into dark elves and driven underground, and of those drow that had returned to the surface, their communities small and still followed evil powers.
I mean, you can dismiss that with in-universe knowledge. "That's what we THOUGHT."
When you've got 30 years of novels and source books and adventures and more, all saying the same thing, you need more of an explanation than "oh, we just didn't know about this thing that's setting-wide and has been the case for millennia and yet never even hinted at before."
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I don't mind retcons, I just hope they get decent explanations.
They're no longer in the business of explaining anything, especially retcons. Sticking to canon hasn't been a concern in a long time. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Mar 2022 20:21:09 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 21:23:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's evil with a purpose, and there's "Imma kick a puppy because I'm so evil!" -- and Bane came across as the latter.
Yeah, but he's the God of Evil. I'm not sure what else is he supposed to be motivated by.
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That's going to apply to multiple powers of the Realms, then, including Shar, Lolth, and Cyric -- because divine impersonations of fallen/lesser powers are a common thing.
Yeah, and it's never really workled great. When Cyric was impersonating the Dead Three, it felt like it was, "Your priests of Myrkul don't have to suddenly be Priests of Cyric [even if they are]." I feel like the impersonating feels like a patch.
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See, I don't see that just because the creator of something does X that it means it's a good thing.
George Lucas gave us Jar Jar Binks.
I mean, I like Lich Kings and Lich Gods so I don't know what to tell you. I feel like necromancer lords are great things for games and very spooky. If you don't, that's fine, but I felt its absence with Velsharoon.
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That still doesn't cover these other major factions all sticking their noses in everywhere.
No, but I do support the idea of more international and interconnected realms. Which would benefit from international factions.
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When you've got 30 years of novels and source books and adventures and more, all saying the same thing, you need more of an explanation than "oh, we just didn't know about this thing that's setting-wide and has been the case for millennia and yet never even hinted at before."
I mean, it's a large setting where there's still a lot of underdeveloped settings. This is also a genre where discovering THE ISLE OF DREAD and other "lost civilizations" is part of the theme. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Mar 2022 04:04:40 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 21:51:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
That's just very confusing as plenty of gods like Tiamat are doing their absolute best in order to get to Faerun with their powers but this makes them vulnerable.
There seem to be two ways of gods appearing:
1) Just show up. You will temporarily sacrifice a lot of your power to do it, but you can hang out as a quasi-god, and there may be benefits you can garner by being hands-on instead of forced to rely on dumb mortals ("when you want a job done right..."). Watch out for incoming adventurers, for they are unsubtle and quick to murder-hobo you for that sweet, sweet XP. If you die, not to worry, you will respawn back on the Outer Planes, but while you are dead your clerics don't get spells and you don't get to do anything involving your portfolio, so there will probably be a horrible crisis of faith (this happens to Auril in Rime if she is killed; she will be reborn at the next midwinter solstice). Examples: Auril, the Dead Three, Eilistraee (according to Ed).
2) Have a complex, complicated ritual sort of magic performed, which allows you to descend upon the Material Plane in more or less your full godly might and power. If you die you still respawn, but it's much more embarrassing and you're often just getting "shoved back to your home plane" rather than actually killed outright. Examples: Tiamat, Dendar the Night Serpent (in Adventurer's League).
These are of course only my deductions and speculations, but it "feels" roughly accurate to me.
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Also, you'd think three deities wandering around would be a lot more of a bigger deal than you think.
As I mentioned, Descent Into Avernus goes into some detail on what they appear to be up to (it includes glimpses of what they look like, though no actual statblocks exist), and they are doing things and creating/spreading cults. So "stuff is happening" but we don't know what it is yet. I'm currently reserving judgement until I see what BG3 does.
Ed has also noted on Twitter that they do have reasons for what they do that he at least won't explain or hasn't explained, but that some of the doings of the Dead Three have always been considered "mysterious" to mortals, because they don't always act like other gods. Staying behind seems to be part of it.
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If you're going to go through AMAZING lengths to fight Auril and defeat her three times then she should damn well STAY DEAD. It's not like it's killing Takhasis and the entire setting is permanently wrecked (looks at War of Souls).
In all honesty, Auril isn't that tough. I mean, she's tough for the level of the Rime of the Frostmaiden adventure, even if you're near the end of the adventure and are 11th or 12th level, but if a group of 17th level adventurers showed up she would likely be eating dirt.
But it must also be said that Auril is also expending a large amount of her power (even in reduced form by being present on the mortal plane) to maintain a permanent fimbulwinter and more across Icewind Dale and so on. I would expect if she stopped bothering with that, she'd rapidly become a whole lot stronger and nastier even in a reduced form. If she is slain, when she is eventually reborn on the Outer Planes it is as a full goddess, described as "unassailable by mortals".
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The Great Wheel honestly made no sense to me without Alignment beyond Good and Evil. I might not have liked 4E's "every god has its own realm" but without Alignment, what's the point?
5E does have or use alignments again. Although some races are being reworked with an upcoming book, so I am unsure on this point. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2022 : 22:15:47
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quote:
5E does have or use alignments again. Although some races are being reworked with an upcoming book, so I am unsure on this point.
Man, I am really behind. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2022 : 03:08:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's evil with a purpose, and there's "Imma kick a puppy because I'm so evil!" -- and Bane came across as the latter.
Yeah, but he's the God of Evil. I'm not sure what else is he supposed to be motivated by.
You're not seeing my point. What I saw of Bane was him doing evil things not to advance any agenda or even because they made sense, but simply because they were evil. It was like he was rolling dice to see what the Evil Plot of the Day was going to be. "Hmm, 42. That's... Steal a city from the mortal plane!"
He was being evil for no rhyme or reason. He wasn't advancing the causes of strife or tyranny, he was just doing evil things.
In short, he was being the Chaotic Stupid version of evil. He certainly wasn't acting like the kind of intelligent, evil plotter you'd expect the god of tyrants to be.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's going to apply to multiple powers of the Realms, then, including Shar, Lolth, and Cyric -- because divine impersonations of fallen/lesser powers are a common thing.
Yeah, and it's never really workled great. When Cyric was impersonating the Dead Three, it felt like it was, "Your priests of Myrkul don't have to suddenly be Priests of Cyric [even if they are]." I feel like the impersonating feels like a patch.
Cyric was not impersonating the Dead Three. He held their portfolios and point-blank said that he had replaced them. That's not the same as Shar answering prayers to Ibrandul and pretending to be him, or Lolth pretending that she's Moander, or when Cyric was going around impersonating any convenient power just to lead their followers astray.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
See, I don't see that just because the creator of something does X that it means it's a good thing.
George Lucas gave us Jar Jar Binks.
I mean, I like Lich Kings and Lich Gods so I don't know what to tell you. I feel like necromancer lords are great things for games and very spooky. If you don't, that's fine, but I felt its absence with Velsharoon.
I'm fine with necromancers, but the whole "Imma raise an army of the dead!" thing is played out.
As for deities, I don't see a need for Wannabe Vecna #17. Vecna wouldn't even be all that interesting if two of his body parts weren't artifacts (and actually, even that was deeply weird -- an eye and a hand? Why not his entire head or his heart?)
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That still doesn't cover these other major factions all sticking their noses in everywhere.
No, but I do support the idea of more international and interconnected realms. Which would benefit from international factions.
The Realms isn't set up with that kind of thing in mind, though. The Realms has vast stretches of wilderness and unsettled lands. Instantaneous communications are possible, but not cheap and rarely used. And when you don't have regular, timely communications, an organization can't really function as much more than a bunch of (semi-)independent cells.
That's why I reject having these factions everywhere and involved in everything. It goes against the nature of the setting as Ed created it.
It can work in other settings, like Eberron, where a greater interconnectedness between nations is built into the setting. It's just not a Realms thing.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When you've got 30 years of novels and source books and adventures and more, all saying the same thing, you need more of an explanation than "oh, we just didn't know about this thing that's setting-wide and has been the case for millennia and yet never even hinted at before."
I mean, it's a large setting where there's still a lot of underdeveloped settings. This is also a genre where discovering THE ISLE OF DREAD and other "lost civilizations" is part of the theme.
It's a large setting, yes, but that doesn't change the amount of lore that's being thrown out the window, and the setting is certainly not large enough to have these cities existing for thousands of years with absolutely no contact at all with the outside world.
Also, the forum's quote function copies the previous person's name exactly. The fact that you keep going in and changing the spelling comes across as disrespectful, and I'll thank you to stop it.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2022 : 04:04:07
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quote:
Also, the forum's quote function copies the previous person's name exactly. The fact that you keep going in and changing the spelling comes across as disrespectful, and I'll thank you to stop it.
It only works for one quote and I am breaking it up. It's been a long time since I used this particular forum and I'm still trying to get used to the way it works. But if you assume malice and do not wish to communicate further, I understand. No offense is intended but, again, I apologize. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Mar 2022 12:24:16 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2022 : 03:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're not seeing my point. What I saw of Bane was him doing evil things not to advance any agenda or even because they made sense, but simply because they were evil. It was like he was rolling dice to see what the Evil Plot of the Day was going to be. "Hmm, 42. That's... Steal a city from the mortal plane!"
He was being evil for no rhyme or reason. He wasn't advancing the causes of strife or tyranny, he was just doing evil things.
In short, he was being the Chaotic Stupid version of evil. He certainly wasn't acting like the kind of intelligent, evil plotter you'd expect the god of tyrants to be.
I admit, aside from the AVATAR TRILOGY, I don't actually remember Bane doing that much in-universe stories. So I don't remember him doing much puppy-killing stupid evil. Mostly I knew him as the patron of the Zhentarim and certain other races that were MEANT to be smart but Ed Greenwood was forced to write as idiots (hence the Shandril Saga's downer ending when he had creative control).
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Cyric was not impersonating the Dead Three. He held their portfolios and point-blank said that he had replaced them. That's not the same as Shar answering prayers to Ibrandul and pretending to be him, or Lolth pretending that she's Moander, or when Cyric was going around impersonating any convenient power just to lead their followers astray.
My memories of 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms may be a bit hazy, I admit. Powers and Pantheons was in 1997 and its hard to believe that was decades ago. Mind you, I can remember an obscure bit of trivia from Drow of the Underdark so maybe I'm misremembering my misremembering.
Either way, from my distant memories, I do recall that there were a lot of people who objected to Cyric wholesale taking over the Dead Three's portfolios and there were numerous compromises made.
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See, I don't see that just because the creator of something does X that it means it's a good thing.
George Lucas gave us Jar Jar Binks.
I mean, I have no problem with Liches because I take them as the way to do a copyright friendly version of Sauron. The guy who is the vast Dark Lord with an army of undead servants to go along with his more mundane forces. The ones you can't just eliminate by killing. I think there's way-way too many in the Forgotten Realms but power creep has always been a thing.
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I'm fine with necromancers, but the whole "Imma raise an army of the dead!" thing is played out.
I do have an objection to 4th Edition getting rid of the Wizards of Thay to make Thay a undead-heavy necromancer kingdom.
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As for deities, I don't see a need for Wannabe Vecna #17. Vecna wouldn't even be all that interesting if two of his body parts weren't artifacts (and actually, even that was deeply weird -- an eye and a hand? Why not his entire head or his heart?)
Well, the whole point of the Eye and the Hand are that the player characters will cut out an eye or off a hand to put them on to gain phenomenal power. While the Head of Vecna is a joke, most players weren't that stupid.
Also, villains using it are more likely to remove their eye than hand.
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The Realms isn't set up with that kind of thing in mind, though. The Realms has vast stretches of wilderness and unsettled lands. Instantaneous communications are possible, but not cheap and rarely used. And when you don't have regular, timely communications, an organization can't really function as much more than a bunch of (semi-)independent cells.
I'm honestly confused why it ISN'T a thing in the Realms, though. The Realms has the kind of magic for the communication as well as fast travel to do those sorts of things. I feel like they could have made it so the realms are a bit more interconnected a century later as a sign of progress and easier movement for PCs--who already could go to many different lands as part of their high adventures.
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That's why I reject having these factions everywhere and involved in everything. It goes against the nature of the setting as Ed created it.
Perhaps but I also feel FR was better at interconnected regions than most games of its time. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Mar 2022 03:06:56 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2022 : 14:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well, the whole point of the Eye and the Hand are that the player characters will cut out an eye or off a hand to put them on to gain phenomenal power. While the Head of Vecna is a joke, most players weren't that stupid.
It's been a while since I heard the Head of Vecna be mentioned. That brings back memories.
Anyway, there have been a few other pieces of Vecna released as artifacts as well. I believe Dragon #359 had one of his ears, and a bunch of other bits and pieces that were just generic "fragments of Vecna" artifacts.
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I'm honestly confused why it ISN'T a thing in the Realms, though. The Realms has the kind of magic for the communication as well as fast travel to do those sorts of things. I feel like they could have made it so the realms are a bit more interconnected a century later as a sign of progress and easier movement for PCs--who already could go to many different lands as part of their high adventures.
Storm King's Thunder makes this a thing that the Harpers do across the North. The circles are, for anybody interested:
1) Everlund: Circular chamber in Moongleam Tower. An arcane lock spell guards the chamber door. Watched by Nespril Menk during the day and Flewen Aldhark at night. (90% chance that Aldhark is sleeping when the party shows up, he's lazy.)
2) Loudwater: 30-foot square cellar under a tavern called the Smiling Satyr. Attending mage is Revil Slombarr. Heavyset young man, often shirks his duties to visit nearby festhalls, 50% chance he's absent when the characters get there and won't return for 1d4 hours. The stairs up from the cellar lead to a secret door inside a large wooden trunk bolted to the floor above, if you climb out of the trunk you're in a curtained cloakroom near the taproom. Harper sympathiser Gharwin Umbryl runs the tavern and covers for Revil.
3) Mirabar: Inside a stable hosue loft and hidden under the hay, the attendant is Zazspar Bronzefire, a dwarf who poses as a stablehand. If this circle was discovered Mirabar's authorities would be utterly furious to learn the Harpers have been (and still are) compromising their security.
4) Neverwinter: In an attic in a creaky old 3-storey rowhouse the Harpers use for meetings. Attendant is Sandyse Thunderquill, she's being trained to infiltrate the Arcane Brotherhood.
5) Waterdeep: Inside a raised crypt in the City of the Dead. Crypt has two levels, the name Myrna is inscribed above the entrance (sealed with arcane lock). Topmost level is the crypt itself, there's a stone sarcophagus with a shield guardian golem that lifts the lid whenever somebody speaks the name Myrna aloud. Stone staircase inside leading down to a magically lit room, the circle is on the floor of the chamber. Attending mage is Thestryl Mellardin.
6) Yartar: Harpers bought a villa in the middle of the town, it's dilapidated. There's a 40 square foot garden patio out the back and an 8 foot high wall of stone around it, plus hallucinatory terrain to hide the circle inscribed in the middle as well as all the evidence of poor groundskeeping, making it look like it did in its heyday. Attending mage is a cantankerous old wizard called Kolbaz.
I would assume that if the Harpers are doing it, then it's entirely possible for other groups and organisations to set things up so they can as well. It just takes willingness, ability to get mages stationed at the circles, and in some cases bribes for people to look the other way. Or just not telling them about the circles, because they are most definitely a security concern if the sigil sequence is learned by an outsider - Mirabar's reaction if they find out what the Harpers are doing is proof enough of that. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2022 : 15:08:41
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| If you are interested in the novels, there are a few released during the 4e era that are actually good, and are tied with the initial plot of 5e. If you want to give them a try, I can make a list. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Mar 2022 15:20:48 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2022 : 00:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Oooo, do tell.
For my part I didn’t mind the Brotherhood of the Griffon books. Mainly the one where they went to I think Rashemen. It was in the 4e era. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2022 : 18:44:13
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| As someone who stays in touch with the Realms almost exclusively through the novels, I think the spellplague offered a lot of possibilities for plot and narrative. The Shadowbane series (Eric Scott de Bie) wouldn't have such a good protagonist and setting without the catastrophic features. The Brotherhood of the Griffon follows the same pattern. |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2022 : 00:47:48
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I hate to ask but where is the best repository of information for the Realms getting revamped back from the Spellplague in supplements?
I feel so ignorant but don't know where to begin tabletop gaming wise either. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2022 : 01:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I hate to ask but where is the best repository of information for the Realms getting revamped back from the Spellplague in supplements?
I feel so ignorant but don't know where to begin tabletop gaming wise either.
If you just want to look at the North, then I think the Storm King’s Thunder location list might be a place to start. Otherwise, the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide. It doesn’t have the breadth of the 3e or 2e campaign setting books, but it will give you an idea, I hope. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Getting back into the Realms
