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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 01:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Even if she was demoted to a Lesser power, she'll just pull another crazy scheme that doesn't make anything resembling sense and somehow come out more powerful -- like when she ignored her followers and literally ate herself and somehow became more powerful.
Eh, it would actually be good storytelling that Lolth screwed the pooch and got herself demoted back to her previous level.
It would, at the least, make more sense. But WotC isn't likely to come off of its drow kick any time soon, so Lolth isn't likely to take a hit, in any way, any time soon. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 01:38:24
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quote:
It would, at the least, make more sense. But WotC isn't likely to come off of its drow kick any time soon, so Lolth isn't likely to take a hit, in any way, any time soon.
I mean...hasn't she? All of the Drow gods are back and she's a Lesser God. Mind you, I'm only now exploring all this.
Also, it seems like their plans are that not even all Drow worship Lolth. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 02:02:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
It would, at the least, make more sense. But WotC isn't likely to come off of its drow kick any time soon, so Lolth isn't likely to take a hit, in any way, any time soon.
I mean...hasn't she? All of the Drow gods are back and she's a Lesser God. Mind you, I'm only now exploring all this.
Also, it seems like their plans are that not even all Drow worship Lolth.
As of the more recent adventures (compared to 2016 for OOTA) we have more takes from designers on Divinity. First off, Chris Perkins is convinced that a CR 30 equates to an actual god walking. The only way I can cope with that is if the Second Sundering and 5e actively reduced power levels of all creatures manifesting on the Material Plane under Ao. It's the only way you can take "Tiamat is the real deal" seriously when you shove her into a Forcecage and shoot her to death with cantrips.
So take that nonsense, and combine it with the other 'deity-lite' creatures in D&D Adventures of late. Rime of the Frostmaiden has a three-stage Auril fight that never gets far into double digits. Then there's the Dead Three who have been designed to be 'arbitrarily lesser tier dieties' who are basically very powerful mortal-immortals or what-have you. I'm not here to complain about the Dead There- they are basically the only Demigod-level creatures around in lore for the new crowd. So to someone coming in, gods seem incredibly weak compared to extraplanar beings such as Solars and Empyreans from the 5e Monster Manual. The only tiers of power a fresh-faced player post Second Sundering will see for gods are "Proper Gods who can manifest a cr 30 form or grant the tenth level cleric power Divine Intervention." and "things that are almost gods like demon lords and archdevils" and then lastly "demigods in forgotten realms adventures who have power-levels fine tuned for the adventure module". From the layperson perspective we got Gods, Bad Guys, and Demigods with their strange rules. I mean look at the villains in Minsk and Boo's Journal of Villainy. They have freaking Mephistophiles as a stat block around CR 26. Why couldn't he have been in Mortenkainens' years ago? Jeesh. WOTC is so scared to show off some of their legacy material that they hide it away in these side projects. Demodands, freaking PHAERIMM are in there! CR 15 by the way, respectable for a lesser Phaerimm.
As for Lolth, well, there hasn't been a single adventure to take you to the abyss in 5e that I can recall. The Dungeon Master's Guide gives rules for being passively corrupted by the area, and OOTA suggests your players might want to hunt down demon lords in the Abyss with no guide on how. If they can keep from ever publishing a stat block for Lolth, then they can avoid ever having to explain her.
OOTA is strange. What came first? RA Salvatore's draft for Archmage, or the design concept for OOTA? Why does it seem like the adventure should take place before the Second Sundering? Why is there some completely dropped subplot about Ghaunadaur and the Elder Elemental Eye conspiracy present in Princes of the Apocalypse and the OOAT modules? |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 02:03:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
It would, at the least, make more sense. But WotC isn't likely to come off of its drow kick any time soon, so Lolth isn't likely to take a hit, in any way, any time soon.
I mean...hasn't she? All of the Drow gods are back and she's a Lesser God. Mind you, I'm only now exploring all this.
Also, it seems like their plans are that not even all Drow worship Lolth.
That was true before: not all drow worshiped Lolth. You have your Eilistraeens and your Vhaeraunites, after all. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 02:15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
It would, at the least, make more sense. But WotC isn't likely to come off of its drow kick any time soon, so Lolth isn't likely to take a hit, in any way, any time soon.
I mean...hasn't she? All of the Drow gods are back and she's a Lesser God. Mind you, I'm only now exploring all this.
Also, it seems like their plans are that not even all Drow worship Lolth.
That was true before: not all drow worshiped Lolth. You have your Eilistraeens and your Vhaeraunites, after all.
It was interesting that when listening to the Lady Penitent finale that the concept of a Dark Elf, pre-Wendineye southern Elves with no Drow Descent narrative yet, and hearing the Drow characters just have zero clue what in Ao's name the Dark Elf characters are trying to explain to them. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 02:18:49
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quote:
That was true before: not all drow worshiped Lolth. You have your Eilistraeens and your Vhaeraunites, after all.
That was true in 2nd and 3rd but there was an entire series about killing off all the other Drow deities and turning the non-evil Drow into something else.
Because...reasons, I guess.
There's an Apocalypse Now quote about methods that applies to some of Wizards' decisions over the years. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 02:24:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
That was true before: not all drow worshiped Lolth. You have your Eilistraeens and your Vhaeraunites, after all.
That was true in 2nd and 3rd but there was an entire series about killing off all the other Drow deities and turning the non-evil Drow into something else.
Because...reasons, I guess.
There's an Apocalypse Now quote about methods that applies to some of Wizards' decisions over the years.
They are back in 5e, but yes, they were killed off because...reasons (read: Drizzt is extra specialz). I agree about WotC and their decision making processes over the years, but the drow gods are back now (though admittedly, WotC/RAS seem to be in favor of still shoving them to the side and inside creating new civilizations that have supposedly always been there). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 02:45:14
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quote:
So take that nonsense, and combine it with the other 'deity-lite' creatures in D&D Adventures of late. Rime of the Frostmaiden has a three-stage Auril fight that never gets far into double digits. Then there's the Dead Three who have been designed to be 'arbitrarily lesser tier dieties' who are basically very powerful mortal-immortals or what-have you. I'm not here to complain about the Dead There- they are basically the only Demigod-level creatures around in lore for the new crowd. So to someone coming in, gods seem incredibly weak compared to extraplanar beings such as Solars and Empyreans from the 5e Monster Manual.
The only tiers of power a fresh-faced player post Second Sundering will see for gods are "Proper Gods who can manifest a cr 30 form or grant the tenth level cleric power Divine Intervention." and "things that are almost gods like demon lords and archdevils" and then lastly "demigods in forgotten realms adventures who have power-levels fine tuned for the adventure module". From the layperson perspective we got Gods, Bad Guys, and Demigods with their strange rules.
I mean look at the villains in Minsk and Boo's Journal of Villainy. They have freaking Mephistophiles as a stat block around CR 26. Why couldn't he have been in Mortenkainens' years ago? Jeesh. WOTC is so scared to show off some of their legacy material that they hide it away in these side projects. Demodands, freaking PHAERIMM are in there! CR 15 by the way, respectable for a lesser Phaerimm.
I have thoughts on this subject.
My first two Forgotten Realms products were Darkwalker on the Moonshaes and Azure Bonds which have the shared in common element of the player characters (for lack of a better term) being godslayers.
Bhaal uses the power of the Earthmother to manifest in a physical form on the world like Tiamat's entire plot for Rise of Tiamat and ends up being destroyed. This apparently greatly weakens him as a whole. Moander's avatar is also destroyed and causes him a similar dramatic loss of power level. Later, I would read Dragonlance and Takhasis manifesting was her major goal as well as what gets her impaled by Huma.
So, I'm fully of the mind that player characters fighting gods and defeating them in Dungeons and Dragons is a time-honored tradition and I actually think "power creep" for gods is a bad thing. Lolth was a defeatable monster in Queen of the Demonweb Pits and The Temple of Elemental Evil allows you to beat her rival, the Queen of Fungus.
I also think the module is quite clever with Tiamat that you can sabotage the ritual. I've done that trick in one of my books (Games of Supervillainy) where the god comes through but the ritual is botched so they're at an actual fraction of their power level and slayable. I think it's a suitable conclusion to the campaign that has come before. I also believe Tiamat should be rendered "perma dead" because it makes a better story and it's not like the players are going to fight her again.
I similarly feel if you have a MASSIVE campaign to kill Auril, she should be perma-dead at the end of the module.
Otherwise, what was the point?
Mind you, as early as 3rd Edition, I completely reworked my Realms to the 1-20 Level scheme. The difference between Elminster as a 29th level character and 20th really didn't mean anything except the player characters COULD theoretically catch up to him. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 02:47:39
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quote:
They are back in 5e, but yes, they were killed off because...reasons (read: Drizzt is extra specialz). I agree about WotC and their decision making processes over the years, but the drow gods are back now (though admittedly, WotC/RAS seem to be in favor of still shoving them to the side and inside creating new civilizations that have supposedly always been there).
I admit to total bias on the "lost civilization of good-aligned drow." I reworked the classic ISLE OF DREAD in my home Realms campaign to be an enormous "lost civilization" that was displaced by Evermeet millennia ago. It was now in a pocket-dimension and the population were all non-evil Drow. The players would eventually find out these were the Pre-Lolth worshiping drow.
And the HORRIBLE SECRET of the Isle of Dread was that the original civilization was destroyed, not by a Lolth-inspired uprising, but Sun Elves exterminating the Native Faerun dark elves.
For me, Toril is a planet where you can find whole continents yet undiscovered. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 15 Mar 2022 02:48:07 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 03:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I admit to total bias on the "lost civilization of good-aligned drow." I reworked the classic ISLE OF DREAD in my home Realms campaign to be an enormous "lost civilization" that was displaced by Evermeet millennia ago. It was now in a pocket-dimension and the population were all non-evil Drow. The players would eventually find out these were the Pre-Lolth worshiping drow.
And the HORRIBLE SECRET of the Isle of Dread was that the original civilization was destroyed, not by a Lolth-inspired uprising, but Sun Elves exterminating the Native Faerun dark elves.
For me, Toril is a planet where you can find whole continents yet undiscovered.
This is similar to what the sun elves did to Miyeritar and to the cult of Eilistraee in it.
The thing about the civilizations isn't that the existence of non-Lolth drow civilizations is a problem, but that RAS is claiming ownership of the idea that there were whole dark elven civilizations who didn't worship Lolth (and of the efforts made to create non-Lolth cultures) while those have always been there. He's shoehorning his (shallow and Mary-Sueish) aevendrow while trivializing the history to fit his needs, and while discarding any ties that those aevendrow must have had with that history (such an enclave was mostl likely formed by survivors of the Crown Wars--either people who survived the Dark Disaster in Miyeritar, or people who fled Ilythiir before Lolth's cult became widespread). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Mar 2022 03:23:14 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 03:26:35
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It is strange for Bob Salvatore to want to do that. For years, Bob absolutely hated Elistraee and went out of his way to never acknowledge them in the Drizzt novels.
Even though she was created by Ed and thus the equivalent of a George Lucas character in Star Wars. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 03:36:47
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| Well, he still isn't acknowledging her. These "old" civilizations are a way for him to be like, "look, good drow" while still avoiding Eilistraee. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 03:41:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It is strange for Bob Salvatore to want to do that. For years, Bob absolutely hated Elistraee and went out of his way to never acknowledge them in the Drizzt novels.
Even though she was created by Ed and thus the equivalent of a George Lucas character in Star Wars.
RAS doesn't care that he's using the world created by someone else for his stuff. He lied through his teeth by stating that he created the FR drow in a Dragon+ interview (https://dnd.dragonmag.com/2021/05/21/in-the-works-template-issue-37-5/content.html), when in truth he only created Menzo, and not even all of it, and not even Lolth or her cult. He then went on saying that the drow not being all evil, and the existence of various cultures, has always been the vision that he had for the drow (despite going the exact opposite direction for 30 or so books), basically refusing to acknowledge the work of so many who contributed to giving the drow nuance and at least some depth.
Tbh, it feels like the reason why he dislikes Eilistraee is that someone else got to do good drow, and he felt robbed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Mar 2022 04:04:31 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 04:31:16
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| Fun fact, a friend of mine who was a 1st Edition gamer, said he never liked Bob Salvatore's writings because he said so much of it was just the Vault of the Drow and people acted like Menzoberrazan wasn't heavily inspired by Gygax. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 08:14:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
They are back in 5e, but yes, they were killed off because...reasons (read: Drizzt is extra specialz). I agree about WotC and their decision making processes over the years, but the drow gods are back now (though admittedly, WotC/RAS seem to be in favor of still shoving them to the side and inside creating new civilizations that have supposedly always been there).
I admit to total bias on the "lost civilization of good-aligned drow." I reworked the classic ISLE OF DREAD in my home Realms campaign to be an enormous "lost civilization" that was displaced by Evermeet millennia ago. It was now in a pocket-dimension and the population were all non-evil Drow. The players would eventually find out these were the Pre-Lolth worshiping drow.
And the HORRIBLE SECRET of the Isle of Dread was that the original civilization was destroyed, not by a Lolth-inspired uprising, but Sun Elves exterminating the Native Faerun dark elves.
For me, Toril is a planet where you can find whole continents yet undiscovered.
The Sundering ritual washed away Atorrnash and with it, any chance of Dark Elven dominance. Ghaunadauran Dark Elves with their dragon allies and high wizards were erased and the weak Ilythiri were forever ruined by Wendonai and Lolth after a now infamous sequence of events revolving around a certain Scrying Dagger brought Lolth's eye to the Realms and the Dark Elves. I mean, Lolth and Ghaunadaur have always had a tense relationship. Imagine if they held equal footing on the realms, rather than Ghaunadaur's holy city being destroyed before she even shows up. I know that society was probably horrible, as Ghaunadaur is a total mess, but there is a prestige that I imagine running in some bloodlines of Drow toward this.. lost chance at being equally terrible on the surface. Hell, if Atorrnash wasn't coastal and survived the Sundering, would the Vyshaan in the north even have had a chance? Would southern elves had fallen with a city and a society contemporary to Sharlarion and older than Aryvandaar at their backs? Under non-fallen high-magic wielding Dark Elven Archwizards' oversight, would the Killing Storm had run rampant over the modern day High Moor? Human civilization in the times after the raising of the standing stone would be completely changed if the High Moor wasn't a nest for Hobgoblins and evil curses (see hagspawn and Under Illefarn Anew) that sabotaged chances at the fallen kingdoms not being so fallen by the time of 1st edition realms.
I wonder what Ed's views on Atorrnash would be. Drow worshipping Ghaunadaur seems like tapping into this alternate reality where the realms (and more specifically, the Dark Elves) were his and his alone. Nowadays we just have one faithful drow wizard, who shows up in Princes of the Apocalypse (which is just oozing with that confounding oerth x toril Elder Evil triple confusion) and in Out Of The Abyss where he somehow knows how to craft a miraculous demon-bait item.
Oh, yes. Also the entire story of the Shoon Imperium is tied to a Ghaunadaur Temple of Ilithyri and evil magic held within. Though that Eye temple and its magic have sent me down many a rabbit hole...
Just saying. A Ghaunadauran Archmage Drow helps you thwart Lolth's plans in OOTA. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 15 Mar 2022 08:19:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 10:42:59
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| It never really got any attention, but there was a city where Ghaunadaur had some prominence: Eryndlyn was split between followers of Lolth, Vhaeraun, and Ghaunadaur. Of course, it got destroyed for reasons in 4E (likely to keep the focus on Menzoberranzan). |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 14:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I mean look at the villains in Minsk and Boo's Journal of Villainy. They have freaking Mephistophiles as a stat block around CR 26. Why couldn't he have been in Mortenkainens' years ago? Jeesh.
At a guess I would say the reason is the same reason they released a Monster Manual, then released Volo's with more creatures, now Mordenkainen's with more, then Fizban's with more (dragon-focused, as expected), and so on and so forth.
Also, the phaerimm art in that book is great. Disturbing and creepy, but great. I think I've said that before elsewhere. But I also think CR 15 is perfectly fine for a full-blown phaerimm; it is plenty powerful to face down the sort of players who will be encountering it as a "boss monster" (namely "mighty adventurers that confront threats to whole regions and continents" and that is definitely a phaerimm thing), and I feel like they should rarely, if ever, be encountered alone. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 15:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
As of the more recent adventures (compared to 2016 for OOTA) we have more takes from designers on Divinity. First off, Chris Perkins is convinced that a CR 30 equates to an actual god walking. The only way I can cope with that is if the Second Sundering and 5e actively reduced power levels of all creatures manifesting on the Material Plane under Ao. It's the only way you can take "Tiamat is the real deal" seriously when you shove her into a Forcecage and shoot her to death with cantrips.
This is why I refuse to stat deities and demigods except as demigod, lesser, intermediate or greater power. In any case, challenge ratings are unreliable as measures of power.
In my campaigns, a fight between a party of 15th level characters and Tiamat would be as lopsided and brief as the soldiers facing off against Ghidorah in Godzilla: King of the Monsters. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 15:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
In my campaigns, a fight between a party of 15th level characters and Tiamat would be as lopsided and brief as the soldiers facing off against Ghidorah in Godzilla: King of the Monsters.
Against the full CR 30 Tiamat it probably would be; she can be weakened in RoT by a variety of mechanisms (basically "screwing up the ritual" so she can't manifest with anything like her full power) that reduce her to just CR 18-20, making it a much less difficult battle overall, depending on how the DM plays her. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 22:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
If it's in the Prime Material Plane, it bleeds.
And if it bleeds, we can kill it.
The bigger question is it from the Prime Material Plane? Even if it bleeds, can you really kill it? Or does it just banish the creature to its native plane?
Finally, fighting an outsider - especially an archfiend or celestial paragon - on its native plane is begging the DM to start the TPK. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 22:34:58
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quote:
The bigger question is it from the Prime Material Plane? Even if it bleeds, can you really kill it? Or does it just banish the creature to its native plane?
Finally, fighting an outsider - especially an archfiend or celestial paragon - on its native plane is begging the DM to start the TPK.
If it just banishes the creature, it feels cheap.
Especially if the point is the god coming physically into this plane.
And if you can only kill it on their home plane, you absolutely need to make them killable on their home planet.
One of the most lame things you can do is make an immortal villian.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 15 Mar 2022 22:35:37 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2022 : 22:59:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
The bigger question is it from the Prime Material Plane? Even if it bleeds, can you really kill it? Or does it just banish the creature to its native plane?
Finally, fighting an outsider - especially an archfiend or celestial paragon - on its native plane is begging the DM to start the TPK.
Tiamat has explicit rules stating that if killed, she will discorporate and return to the Nine Hells, where she rematerialises and is “fine” but otherwise unable to return to the Prime Material, yes. The same is true of any outsider on the Prime: if they are killed there they are booted back to their home plane and can’t return until their banishment period is up (a hundred years or until their slayer lifts it, generally). Only if they die on their home plane are they at risk of 100% death (excepting any contingency plans for resurrection or recorporealisation they might have of their own, which any legitimate archfiend or “big outsider” should in my opinion have).
Drizzt and Errtu is at least one example of the banishment being a plot point, where Errtu was slain by Drizzt on the Prime and then stuck in the Abyss until he could find a way to get Drizzt to lift the banishment. To my recollection Lolth gave him Wulfgar and he tortured him, letting Drizzt find out he was doing it so the drow would lift the banishment. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2022 : 01:45:15
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Personally, I think the gods or powerful demons returning to their home plane and being unable to return to the Prime Material for X number of years makes sense. I mean, you would have to be an uber powerful mortal (more likely, you get one god to kill another). It's been done, sure, but the only way to truly kill a god is to erase it from all planes, and while there have been exceptions, most deities manifest on the Prime Material as Avatars.
You could kill a god to a degree, in that it is "dead" on that particular sphere (like Realmspace), and killing it in its home plane (though that is also where a deity is most powerful) would certainly do that trick in that that deity would no longer be part of that sphere, and its realm would likely vanish, unless an allied deity saved it, so it would be dead in that sphere (in this case, Toril), and its followers and such would be affected and such. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 16 Mar 2022 01:48:46 |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2022 : 02:02:53
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Also, Tiamat has *died* and returned through many strange means in realmslore history. She is integral to the godswars in the east in the past and near present. Many pantheons have her, so when new pantheons invade after 'tiamat' dies, she gets to come in like someone just summoned her from another timeline. Also that one time she split up into three possessed dragons to come back.
By the way, it is my headcanon that Orcus travels east on the Road of Bone beneath Ascore and animated the dead dwarves there. From there on, he takes the pathway straight across Anauroch's fallen lands (probably not even noticing the Sharn Wall if it's still around in your game) and begin playing his survival video-game where he and his 500 hit points of undead building up every day have to last against the taxing attrition of the deepest levels of the underdark that resists his every step. Honestly, the deep underdark is full of such nightmares that even Orcus and his Starcraft RTS army would slow to a crawl on their way North-East. Slashing through Aboleth and Death Tyrants and worse, he'd eventually get mysteriously sent hundreds of miles west in an explainable fashion by the Dark Heart Talisman. What inspires great interest in me is the theoretical campaign where Orcus doesn't get called by the Dark Heart Talisman. There is much discussion about having Graz'zt resist it (as he has his own Adventurer's League side-show) so maybe Orcus can find a way around it too. Orcus can't even teleport, him and the rest all arriving at once is such a silly Jurrasic Park finale for OOTA, lol.
Imagine if he got to the North-East, though. Isn't there a bunch of tin-foil hat discussion about Telos and Orcus and Castle Perilous? I mean, there's a literal spell-weaver triangle of supremely dangerous locations up there. If this cult in Vaasa of Warlock Knights actually owes their allegiance to Orcus, then his arrival could signal a new undead demon warlock triple army to storm out from Bloodstone Pass and conquer all the lands left exposed by the retreating glaciers.
I'm not an expert on the modern rule of Damara and Narfel, but I know their demonic history. Imagine the horrifying feeling sinking into the dark hearts of those living on the Moonsea when they discover that, practically over night, Vaasa Damara and Narfel have formed a triple alliance, and that Orcus himself has claimed all ancient ruins, fortresses, and sources of power north of the moonsea to be his own personal research grounds. The entire force of three military establishments, powerful undead, and Demon allies could come crashing down on Ironfang Keep. In a year, if unopposed, a single Demon could rule a chunk of the planet and have the ability to research things like the Monument of Ancients facility in the Frozen Forest, Possess Castle Perilous, Ironfang Keep, could lay claim on Thar's territory, Even take hold of the Citadel of the Raven if we think that's mysterious enough. And all the while he has a highway hidden underneath Anauroch (the aforementioned Animated-Dwarf-filled Road of Bone to Ascore) that takes him right to the Thirteen Pyramids of Blood Red Stone. Imagine Orcus trying to invade Dun-Tharos...
I love the north-east, and am so sad nothing has been done with it in 5e. ;-; |
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T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 16 Mar 2022 02:16:25 |
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Lolth in Out of the Abyss & Maestro / Hero novels?
