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MandarinB
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Feb 2022 : 23:41:08
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I'm pretty new to D&D, having been introduced a year or so again through 5th Edition. Since then I've fallen in love with the Realms, and I've found little topics and edition lore differences to entertain myself. Most of the times I can ignore old and incompatible lore (such as all the cool Infravision stuff for the drow that doesn't matter any more), but one race origin that is much harder to ignore for me is the different origins of 4E's Netherese Shadar-Kai and 5E's Elven subrace Shadar-Kai. How do you guys differentiate between the two?
I mean, according to what I've read, the Netherese Shadar-Kai are a pretty important part to the lore of the returned Shade Empire, with the name 'Shadar-Kai' meaning "Those of Shadow's Gift" in Netherese. They're a cool concept for a planetouched shadowfell race.
Then you have 5E's Shadar-Kai, who were elves who attempted to help the Raven Queen in stopping the war between Araushnee/Lolth and Corellon from tearing the Seldarine apart. These elves also called themselves Shadar-Kai, though I can't find their reason for doing so other than this being the most recent origin of the race.
How do you reconcile both Shadar-Kai existing in the Realms when they have vastly different origins? A part of me just wants to give the Elven Shadar-Kai a new name and let the Netherese ones be "Shadar-Kai", but I wanted to hear how other DMs have differentiated the two races, if they have at all.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2022 : 02:39:41
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Netherese were strictly human. So Netherese shades will be strictly human shades.
Shades from other species exist, but they are not part of Telamont's Shadovar, Shade Enclave, or Shade Empire. Unless he chose to use them as allies or pawns, like he did with humans.
Shadovar sometimes serve Shar. Other shades serve Mask. These are human deities.
Shadar-Kai originally appeared in late 3E/3.5E supplements, back when elves (and dark elves) were immensely and mindlessly popular. At the time, it was hinted that shadar-kai origins were somehow linked to a version of the Shadowfell which was more akin to the Feywild than to the Prime, some sort of "Feyfell" demiplanar place.
The Erevis Cale and Twilight War novels described shades and the Shadowfell in some detail. Various non-human "shade" species were briefly featured - shadowy versions of giants, goblinoids, and humanoids evidently exist on the Shadowfell - we are also aware of shadow dragons and shadow liches from other sources - so it seems possible that shady counterparts of any human, demihuman, or monster could also exist. Elves, drow, and shadar-kai were not mentioned in any of these novels. (A couple elfshade - "shadar-kai" - NPCs were written in Planescape, but without much detail beyond stat blocks.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Feb 2022 04:57:56 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2022 : 09:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by MandarinB
How do you reconcile both Shadar-Kai existing in the Realms when they have vastly different origins? A part of me just wants to give the Elven Shadar-Kai a new name and let the Netherese ones be "Shadar-Kai", but I wanted to hear how other DMs have differentiated the two races, if they have at all.
I don't really like the Netherese and the fey Shadar Kai having the same name either.
Personally I feel the Netherese Shadar-Kai should just be referred to as the Krinth, which was a Shadow Demon-based planetouched race (like tiefling, aasimar, genasi, etc.), which existed in 3rd edition and were quite prominent in the City of Shade. The concept was scrapped for some reason in the later editions and all Krinth became Shadar-Kai. |
Edited by - deserk on 05 Feb 2022 09:42:34 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2022 : 17:08:49
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As one who plays 3.5, 4e, and 5e I agree it's a bit of a discombobulated mess in regards to the Shadar-Kai. Initially they were Fey from the Plane of Shadow and described in small detail in the supplement Fiend Folio. This is a 3.0 supplement that didn't really get carried over to the 3.5 design concepts and was never touched upon again (that I can think of anyways). When 4E hit, they wanted a "Shadow-y" race to populate their supplement Shadowfell: Gloomwrought and Beyond and to explain them more in detail. They lost their "Fey" heritage and their Shadow Curse (for which they needed 'pain' to keep rooted to the Prime Material plane, otherwise they'd be whisked away back to the Plane of Shadow) but gained some additional (and in my mind, better) lore.
When 5E came around, well apparently they didn't have enough Elven Sub-Races to play with. It wasn't enough that there were High Elves, Wood Elves, Drow, DMG Eladrin, Mordenkainen's Eladrin, and Sea Elves. Guess they figured they might as wel re-incorporate Shadar-Kai back to the Fey fold so to speak. Thus their connection to the Shadowfell and to the Raven Queen.
So how do I incorporate this all? For starters, I ignore 3.0 supplement as any source of material for the lore. It's just not all that lengthy or interesting to me. So to keep the concepts of 4E Shadar-Kai and 5E's Shadow Elves, I have them be from different parts of the Shadowfell as it's sort of been broken up into multiple sections. Shadar-Kai can really be "any" race in My Realms. The elven ones who lived in the Shadowfell decided to follow the Raven Queen exclusively and follow the lore of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. Ones who didn't follow the Raven Queen, who decided to stay behind a bit longer dabbled with the elements of Shadow and Nethermancy, and....well most of those ambitious bastards were human or something other than Fey/Elven. They have close ties to the studies of Evard, the worshipping of Orcus (or Shar), and the long-dead Nightlords of Moil. They still enjoy their piercings and tattoos though, something they share with their elven counterparts. |
Edited by - Diffan on 05 Feb 2022 17:10:59 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2022 : 18:49:39
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| FWIW, I wrote up both shades and shadar-kai in my 5E Forgotten Characters of the Realms on DM's Guild, both as subraces of Shadowborn. I honestly prefer the Shadovar shadar-kai origin, but it only really appeared in Dragon or Dungeon magazine vs the elf origin being their original state when introduced in 3E. That said, there is room for both. We know very little about the Shadowfell. |
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MandarinB
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2022 : 14:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So how do I incorporate this all? For starters, I ignore 3.0 supplement as any source of material for the lore. It's just not all that lengthy or interesting to me. So to keep the concepts of 4E Shadar-Kai and 5E's Shadow Elves, I have them be from different parts of the Shadowfell as it's sort of been broken up into multiple sections. Shadar-Kai can really be "any" race in My Realms. The elven ones who lived in the Shadowfell decided to follow the Raven Queen exclusively and follow the lore of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. Ones who didn't follow the Raven Queen, who decided to stay behind a bit longer dabbled with the elements of Shadow and Nethermancy, and....well most of those ambitious bastards were human or something other than Fey/Elven. They have close ties to the studies of Evard, the worshipping of Orcus (or Shar), and the long-dead Nightlords of Moil. They still enjoy their piercings and tattoos though, something they share with their elven counterparts.
So in your Realms, do you have a reason for them all to be called Shadar-Kai, or a separate name for both? Obviously its pretty easy to just drop the 'Those of Shadow's Gift' Netherese meaning to the name, but since I was considering giving a different more elven name to the Shadowfell ones, I wanted to know. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2022 : 15:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by MandarinB
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So how do I incorporate this all? For starters, I ignore 3.0 supplement as any source of material for the lore. It's just not all that lengthy or interesting to me. So to keep the concepts of 4E Shadar-Kai and 5E's Shadow Elves, I have them be from different parts of the Shadowfell as it's sort of been broken up into multiple sections. Shadar-Kai can really be "any" race in My Realms. The elven ones who lived in the Shadowfell decided to follow the Raven Queen exclusively and follow the lore of Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. Ones who didn't follow the Raven Queen, who decided to stay behind a bit longer dabbled with the elements of Shadow and Nethermancy, and....well most of those ambitious bastards were human or something other than Fey/Elven. They have close ties to the studies of Evard, the worshipping of Orcus (or Shar), and the long-dead Nightlords of Moil. They still enjoy their piercings and tattoos though, something they share with their elven counterparts.
So in your Realms, do you have a reason for them all to be called Shadar-Kai, or a separate name for both? Obviously its pretty easy to just drop the 'Those of Shadow's Gift' Netherese meaning to the name, but since I was considering giving a different more elven name to the Shadowfell ones, I wanted to know.
Similar to "elves", they are all just called Shadar-Kai. The Shadar-Kai who've followed the Raven Queen in the Shadowfell, ones who are elven/fey are called (and refer to themselves) as Ali'Fir-quess [Ali'fir-quessir] (or quite literally "Shadow-dark people"). Others are just called Shadar-Kai. Those who've fallen under Netherese control or who've not followed the Raven Queen still refer to themselves as Shadar-Kai. Shades - a different people altogether - simply refer to them as "lesser" (a disparaging term that pisses them off).
In one of my 4E Campaigns, I had a player make a Female Shadar-Kai Berserker who stole away from the Empire of Shade to live among the Bedine and assimilate well to their cultures. She was referred as "pale one" or "shadow-lady". |
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Elven vs Netherese Shadar-Kai
