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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2022 : 02:39:52
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
Magic. Might even be worse. They have to keep the good guys magic weak...and beyond dumb...just so the standard simple TV plots can happen. Even low level magic can ruin and simple plot, by a clueless writer. And every spellcaster in D&D gets lots of at will magic, plus many more spells. Even just the Player's Handbook spells can ruin everything. So even though a hero will have say the spell Fireball...and THAT would have them have AT LEAST ten or so other spells...they will just STAND AROUND and let the plot happen. And that is IF they even sort of stick to the D&D rules....and likely they will not anyway. Oh, and the bad guys will have epic level god like magic...when the plot calls for it, but will "forget" they have it so the heroes will win.
And the show just gets worse from there.....
To be fair, on this point, I'll blame D&D's non-existent magic system. D&D magic has no rhyme or reason, nor it has a theme. It's just "yeah, magic can do whatever", and when you have that kind of stuff, how do you limit it in a way that enhances the narrative (aka creates conflict meaningful to the character's transformation arcs)?
You may say "you only get to do X once per day", but that means that if you have one of those powers like "teleport" or "dominate X", you win, and therefore there's no conflict. The only significant conflict happens when you don't have those, and since narrative should only includes scenes with conflict, it's good to ask ourselves how adding elements that don't favor it impact our story. Basically, this is the "Avada Kedavra" issue all over (Yeah, the Harry Potter magic system isn't good).
You may throw things like anti-magic areas, or dimensional locks, or mind blanks, or creatures who are resistant to certain stuff, and all you want. However 1)those are pretty much the same situation as not having magic, because those spells make your magic useless 2)They still follow no logic--the audience won't go "aha! It makes sense that stuff goes like this", it will feel like more arbitrary things put there in an attempt to limit the characters or create conflict. And when you're dealing with arbitrary spells, that will also grow more and more varied and powerful the more the story goes on, it's really easy to create a mess with no real tension, because it's not immediate for the audience to know what this character can and can't do, and therefore if the situation at hand is an actual threat or not.
Coming up with a reason and a way magic does things is fundamental to a good fantasy story, because it gives you a lot of ways to create conflict. Heck, the way magic works should ideally be linked to the theme of your story. On that note, the only kind of plotline (that I can see) where D&D magic adds something is that your character has a fatal flaw related to recklessness/impulsiveness (this they waste all their resources quickly, and having no magic is a meaningful conflict for them), or a fatal flaw related to arrogance and overconfidence in their magic (so getting their magic countered and therefore rendered useless IS a meaningful conflict for their fatal flaw). Even in these cases, using D&D's magic isn't optimal. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Feb 2022 02:40:15 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2022 : 05:51:50
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| Some folks love to be contrary for the sake of being contrary; they find contentment only in contention. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2022 : 22:21:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I'll blame D&D's non-existent magic system....
...
(Yeah, the Harry Potter magic system isn't good).
Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're bad or non-existent. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2022 : 22:37:04
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I don't recall the old D&D cartoon or movies making any mention of game rules and mechanics. The characters did things "in character". The DM never asked them to roll dice, never assigned modifiers, never argued about the wording of spell descriptions.
It's the D&D-playing fans who interpreted the character abilities and actions in terms of rulesets. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2022 : 23:22:54
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I'll blame D&D's non-existent magic system....
...
(Yeah, the Harry Potter magic system isn't good).
Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're bad or non-existent.
I explained the issues with it, which aren't related to my taste. If there's anything I couldn't see that makes the D&D magic system a good choice for a story (games are a different matter), I'll certainly listen.
To summarize, I said that the system is bad because it's "magic can do basically anything", with no theme or internal logic that ties the system together, except a X/day mechanic (which presents that issues that I have explained in my post). This is an obstacle to building good conflict, because when your magic can do all or is gamebreaking, either you instawin, or you do nothing (you ran out of those spells, or your spell gets nullified by some other spell or effect), which makes successfully using magic prone to author-bias/conveniency. The absence of an internal theme means that magic is generic and doesn't contribute to supporting the theme of your transformation arc by providing pertinent conflict (stupid example: a magic system based on communal casting and empathy can provide good conflict for a character that is sociopathic, wants the power of magic, but can't quite control it because they'll just exploit other people). The absence of an internal logic means that this kind of magic system is also prone to deus-ex-machina moments, with the right spell to save the day being discovered or prepared at a very convenient time- That's because there's no well defined limit to what magic can do, nor there's any logic that helps you understand what a character will be able to do, which in turn is essential to have some tension, because it makes you immediately understand if a certain situation is an actual threat. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Feb 2022 23:42:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2022 : 02:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't recall the old D&D cartoon or movies making any mention of game rules and mechanics. The characters did things "in character". The DM never asked them to roll dice, never assigned modifiers, never argued about the wording of spell descriptions.
It's the D&D-playing fans who interpreted the character abilities and actions in terms of rulesets.
Actually, the characters from the D&D cartoon were statted up, in 3E, when the series came out on DVD.
Sadly, I can't find my copy of the DVDs at the moment, so I don't have the stats handy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2022 : 03:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't recall the old D&D cartoon or movies making any mention of game rules and mechanics. The characters did things "in character". The DM never asked them to roll dice, never assigned modifiers, never argued about the wording of spell descriptions.
It's the D&D-playing fans who interpreted the character abilities and actions in terms of rulesets.
Actually, the characters from the D&D cartoon were statted up, in 3E, when the series came out on DVD.
Sadly, I can't find my copy of the DVDs at the moment, so I don't have the stats handy.
https://fdocuments.in/document/dd-35e-animated-series-handbook.html |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2022 : 03:14:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
To be fair, on this point, I'll blame D&D's non-existent magic system. D&D magic has no rhyme or reason, nor it has a theme. It's just "yeah, magic can do whatever", and when you have that kind of stuff, how do you limit it in a way that enhances the narrative (aka creates conflict meaningful to the character's transformation arcs)?
I don't get what the problem you see with the D&D magic system. Other then you don't like it. D&D magic has tons of limits, and tons of rules, so it works fine for limiting things. Though sure 5E magic is just super lazy writing that says "magic goes pew pew", but 1/2/3 E magic common sense rules make more sense...plus the ton of ton of Realmslore(specifically the writings of Ed Greenwood).
The problem I see is bad writers. The VAST majority of TV writers are bad: they just want to slap together a show for a pay check. So, sigh: bad guy kid naps princess, good guys stumble around like idiots, then randomly stumble and free the princess and the bad guy runs away "I'll get you next time". Bam..done...where is my check.
It's bad enough with real world shows where the writer does zero research and just has random stuff happen. It gets a hundred times worse when they are told they must follow "fictional reality rules" .
To compensate for magic you need a good writer with skill and intelligence and mastery. It's possible....but it's hard. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2022 : 04:08:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't recall the old D&D cartoon or movies making any mention of game rules and mechanics. The characters did things "in character". The DM never asked them to roll dice, never assigned modifiers, never argued about the wording of spell descriptions.
It's the D&D-playing fans who interpreted the character abilities and actions in terms of rulesets.
Actually, the characters from the D&D cartoon were statted up, in 3E, when the series came out on DVD.
My point was that the characters were not statted up in the show itself. It was presented to them (and to the audience) as a series of adventure stories, not as a series of adventure gaming sessions.
The stats were published (long) after the fact. As a gaming product. Not part of the show itself.
So why should we expect a new D&D show to be different? To have an on-screen focus on the stats and rules? It would focus on soft cartoony kids entertainment stuff, not on hard-rules Dorkness Rising meta stuff. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2022 : 04:31:03
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Fair enough.
I'd not expect anything approaching the rules to be in the show itself, though I'm sure WotC will be quick to put out some companion product or two with character stats and other relevant material from the show. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2022 : 04:58:24
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
bad guy kid naps princess, good guys stumble around like idiots, then randomly stumble and free the princess and the bad guy runs away "I'll get you next time".
These days, it's the other way around: the good guys are barely heroic and the bad guy is highly sympathetic. The princess is...hm...well, she's something of a crapshoot. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 02:25:26
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In a D&D TV show.....does anyone expect them to follow the rules of the game?
A.The writers/producers/Etc will have READ and USE the rules. Any idiotic wacky idea will just be immediately dismissed with a "look this is a D&D based show, go make your own show to do wacky whatever." So each character gets a character sheet that LIMITS their abilities, skills, powers and spells. So it would be "Sora is a 4th level wizard that can ONLY do what is on her character sheet so...NO, she can't bend time and space like Play-Dough just because your a bad writer and backed yourself into an idiotic writers corner."
Or
B. Anything goes. Whatever random spam anyone writes, just slap "D&D show" on it. A "spell caster" and wiggle their fingers and cast any spell(random magic spam) needed for the plot and then forget magic exists for the plot. Any character on the show can do anything, if needed by the plot. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2022 : 04:52:04
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
In a D&D TV show.....does anyone expect them to follow the rules of the game?
A.The writers/producers/Etc will have READ and USE the rules. Any idiotic wacky idea will just be immediately dismissed with a "look this is a D&D based show, go make your own show to do wacky whatever." So each character gets a character sheet that LIMITS their abilities, skills, powers and spells. So it would be "Sora is a 4th level wizard that can ONLY do what is on her character sheet so...NO, she can't bend time and space like Play-Dough just because your a bad writer and backed yourself into an idiotic writers corner."
Or
B. Anything goes. Whatever random spam anyone writes, just slap "D&D show" on it. A "spell caster" and wiggle their fingers and cast any spell(random magic spam) needed for the plot and then forget magic exists for the plot. Any character on the show can do anything, if needed by the plot.
Of course they're abiding by the rules...
Rule Zero. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Rawson Thurber will write and direct D&D TV show
