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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 04:56:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-This quote is absolutely George Lucasing it. "Sorry. It might be a nice world to visit, but it's not the Realms." Also, "...incomplete at best." and a few others.
-I starting losing all respect for him when he started demeaning the other contributors to Star Wars by implying that books, comics, video games, they were lesser products than his movies and not the "real" Star Wars (ironically, it was these 'secondary' products that breathed life back into Star Wars in the late-80s/early-90s).
-If Ed was specifically talking about his own game, or his original notes, in the context of that, okay cool. But I don't like the diminishing other people's work. It doesn't matter if it's another well known author or some nameless graphic designer, that's the official map; that's what the world looks like (for now, until the next retcon lol).
The book where the map appears says it's not accurate -- so why is it an issue for Ed to say it's not right?
Again, the book calls it a "a scholar's view of Abeir-Toril" -- not an accurate map or an explorer's map, but something a scholar came up with, and then says "Even the wisest scholars of Candlekeep know only a little of what lies beyond the realms of Faerūn." (Page 230, 3E FRCS) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 15:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-This quote is absolutely George Lucasing it. "Sorry. It might be a nice world to visit, but it's not the Realms." Also, "...incomplete at best." and a few others.
-I starting losing all respect for him when he started demeaning the other contributors to Star Wars by implying that books, comics, video games, they were lesser products than his movies and not the "real" Star Wars (ironically, it was these 'secondary' products that breathed life back into Star Wars in the late-80s/early-90s).
-If Ed was specifically talking about his own game, or his original notes, in the context of that, okay cool. But I don't like the diminishing other people's work. It doesn't matter if it's another well known author or some nameless graphic designer, that's the official map; that's what the world looks like (for now, until the next retcon lol).
I gotta say, what you're saying here.... its not wrong. I like Ed's work. It's great. But rather than just telling someone that their drawing is wrong... since HE introduced the place, and its obviously going to raise THIS question.... give the guy a bone and make some kind of drawing. Don't just pshaw their work, tell them they're clueless, and that "you know the truth". The cat and mouse game is fun for a while, but it grows old. If you're going to introduce a new continent and want it to be a part of the official realms, go to the effort of giving us at least a ROUGH idea of size and shape and location (and not in some vague textual way that you can naysay forever). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 17:13:26
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My point hasn't been whether that map is accurate to a T, but that it should be a "rough" layout that we can all refer to. Little islands.... whatever. You could plop in another island grouping like the Moonshaes, and I'd probably barely bat an eye. But the BIG places for the OFFICIAL realms should be well known (and by well known, I mean a "recognizable rough shape of the continent... I don't mean mapped interior... I don't mean knowing who lives there... but a name given to the place by the people of Faerun that may differ from that which the residents call it").
I'm also not trying to debate what Ed's home campaign was like, but rather the official things that he's introducing to the realms to try and place where they're at. This new continent would now be considered an official place. We should know where it is, and it should be somewhere on the scholar's guide map unless its a place that's say smaller than Nimbral. It should be on that map because the references for the dragons come from pre-spellplague Wyrms of the North articles. I don't get the idea that it is a small place.... and I do like BadCatMan's placement of it next to the place we've been calling "Katashaka". In my book, that place now officially has a name, and its Arandron. In theory, it's STILL there even after the spellplague and second sundering
Obviously, the spellplague throws a whole kerfluffle in ALL things, because the last map we have predates it, but this continent that's mentioned should predate that, since the lore referenced predates it. To my knowledge, I don't think they did a map for 4e and they definitely haven't for 5e. Throw in that the spellplague replaced Maztica with a place of ROUGHLY the same shape, but missing the attached Lopango peninsula and the attached "Anchorome" above it AND no references to a huge continent the shape of Katashaka near this Laerakond place AND suddenly sent Evermeet to another plane while copying it and displacing it hundreds of miles south.
In short.... the spellplague had a relatively minor effect on Faerun. But it SERIOUSLY changed the lands to its west. How this has affected them over the past century opens a LOT of options for exploration.
Were it not for the rockfire disaster, we could even call into question whether Maztica and Anchorome were even there prior to the Time of Troubles (assuming of course that the rockfire disaster didn't itself involve some planar shenanigans).
But they are making references to Maztica in 5e, and so my take is that "it should be back". The attached continent that was above it should also be back, since there were places on it that were under development (City of Gold, Fort Flame, the site of Balduran's landing and the flying elven ship, etc...). In short, if there was a reference... bring it back.
So, "Laerakond" was in his home campaign instead of Maztica, but it looked different, had different people on it, and may not have even been called Laerakond (as there's some reference to the name having come possibly from these forums). Doesn't matter. The official realms says it came from Abeir. SHOULD IT BE SENT BACK POST SECOND SUNDERING? As I've said several times before... why throw something away that you can use.
One thing that some of this discussion has brought up though that might be worth exploring..... making some bullets to make discussing that easirer to focus on.
1) Ed obviously wants Laerakond "IN" the realms. So does anyone that I've seen respond (I don't know anywone that's said OMG we have to send that place away).
2) At the same time, he's also alluding that there should be a "continent" that's bigger than Faerun in the official realms. This may have been true pre-spellplague, or it might only be true post-spellplague OR post second sundering. But what to do with it?
3) What if we take Shyr FROM Abeir.... maybe it happened post second sundering? We "know" that some of the places on Toril and some of the places on Abeir were roughly of the same shape (i.e. Maztica and Laerakond are roughly the same shape and size.... and there was a copy of Evermeet that came from SOMEWHERE). What if we take that "supercontinent" that was southeast of Zakhara (yeah, the place that's bigger than Faerun).... and replace it WHOLE OR IN PART..... with Shyr from Abeir? Then we have this "drag" Laerakond from its position westward towards Shyr.
4) As "Laerakond" is "dragged" westward..... the copy of Evermeet is sent back to Abeir? This drags the "Torilian" Evermeet back to Toril?
I mention this concept because it might prove an interesting storyline in which you could bring lots of Abeiran creatures to Toril. You could bring more of the Eminence of Araunt to Toril with a hundred years of change. You could introduce large numbers of dragonborn who perhaps fled to Shyr. You could introduce Karshimis as a tyrant lord who might give a god like Bane or Gilgeam a run for his money (possibly even posing as Bane's "mortal" form that we've heard that's roaming the world recently?). You would have at least SOME inkling of what to do with that continent east of Zakhara / SE of Kara-Tur. Finally.... where is the primordial being known as Ubtao/Qotal? Well, maybe he's being held captive by another primordial that he once betrayed?
For that matter... what really do we know of Karshimis? I know that I personally automatically assume that he looks like a humanoid, like some titan or giant. But honestly, for all we know he could be a gigantic sauroid/dinosaur, a great snake, a giant multiheaded dragon, some batrachi like overlord, or any number of creatures for all we know. He could even be "Zaltec" for all we know and the whole Qotal / Zaltec coming back to "the True World" could take on a lot of connotations.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 17:54:08
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With maps as mentioned by Wooly Rupert, the map used is meant to be theoretical in universe. And historical maps were known to theorize continents. Like before proper discovery of Australia and Antarctica, there was theorized there to be to ballance the continents on the northern hemishpere, the continent of Terra Austalis (South Land).
As seen in the maps in the article, continents are kinda off, with as seen especially with North America (either to big, wrong shape and small, or even connected by land visibly to Asia and Europe by land) and South America, aside from Terra Australis. Or direct links to see them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OrteliusWorldMap.jpeg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gerard_De_Jode,_Universi_Orbis_seu_Terreni_Globi,_1578.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Le_Testu_1556_4th_projection.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercator_World_Map.jpg
As seen on the Mercator World map in the last link, Rumold Mercator placed the nonexistant continent/island of Hyperborea in the North Pole (as theorized earlier by his father, Gerard Mercator). (As does the Ortelius world map show a North Pole based continent/great island.)
California for over 200 years was thought to be, or possibly be an island, not a peninsula.
We have also other phantom islands, like Antillia .
This is why what Ed wrote, doesn't seem really offensive to me, but of course YMMV. I agree he could at least worded it maybe better. |
Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jan 2022 21:10:21 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 21:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
<snip>
I don't think it's necessary to bring Shyr to Toril to have a bigger continent Faerūn, and I also don't think that this is what Ed meant. Going by what Ed said, bringing Shyr to Toril would give us two continents bigger than Faerūn in the same planet. And if we are to stick with the official stuff, then there are official products saying Shyr is on Abeir and stayed there post-SS. That is a blade that must be used both ways (officiality, I mean).
Now, if we are looking for landmasses bigger than Faerūn, Ed has said that there are continents in both poles (not depicted in the Scholar's View map, IIRC). Our big continent must be one of those.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Jan 2022 21:11:19 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2022 : 23:57:09
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I'm sure others have seen these before but I only stumbled on them a few months back. I'm guessing these are the maps Ed is referring to. My eyesight isn't what it used to be and free time is rare but maybe some young sage can coax out a secret that wasn't meant to be revealed.
map
map
Do remember Ed has a lot of tightrope walking to do when he talks publicly about the Realms. There's the obvious NDAs but them there is also trying not to step on other people's work, and not to completely up end home campaigns, the fact that he speaks on these matters at all is actually amazing.
Reading all this an interesting thought came to mind, which I am sure some would hate, but how "cool" would it be if one of the times WotC pushed the reset button we got Ed's original Realms. Gone all the changes added later, Maztica, Kara-Tur, etc. The second Sundering and phasing out of lands would have been a great opportunity. Would have been easy enough to patch them onto Abeir and keep some portals to link them for those who still wanted to use them. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2022 : 00:36:59
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| Well, that is Ed's original map of Faerūn. So, it doesn't help us with the location of the continents beyond it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2022 : 02:51:40
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| If only they had unrolled it a bit further. Bits of the Moonshaes are visible. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 03:13:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
<snip>
I don't think it's necessary to bring Shyr to Toril to have a bigger continent Faerūn, and I also don't think that this is what Ed meant. Going by what Ed said, bringing Shyr to Toril would give us two continents bigger than Faerūn in the same planet. And if we are to stick with the official stuff, then there are official products saying Shyr is on Abeir and stayed there post-SS. That is a blade that must be used both ways (officiality, I mean).
Now, if we are looking for landmasses bigger than Faerūn, Ed has said that there are continents in both poles (not depicted in the Scholar's View map, IIRC). Our big continent must be one of those.
Not necessary, no, just noting that we don't have squat for the place that's there.... so why not use something we do have (which what we have on Shyr is so minimal that it can easily adapt to a large landmass.... and hell, we don't even have to use the whole thing). Anyway, not a driving need, but throwing out the idea to see what people think. But you do say one thing that I have to question (not saying its wrong, but I'd like to hear/see the actual quote). We have something post second sundering that actually states that they know for certain that Shyr is still in Abeir post second sundering?
I say this because all we know is that some lands that had come over disappeared and some lands returned.... but we don't know if the "second sundering" was actually not exchanging other parts of Abeir or not. I know what they said their INTENTS were mind you.... but intents from 5 years back change if something possibly more usable might come along. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Jan 2022 03:21:33 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 17:10:55
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We have something post second sundering that actually states that they know for certain that Shyr is still in Abeir post second sundering?
Namshita mentions that Gilgeam was about to launch a suicide attack on the city of Shyr (the nation Akanul was part of) when they got teleported in front of the ruins of Unthalass. Which means:
A. The capital of Shyr (the nation) is the equivalent to Unthalass in Abeir.
B. Shyr remained in Abeir.
Since they later go to the Dead Bones Mountains, and the dragonborn in the group recognized the place, this means that things in Abeir remained mostly the same as they remembered and Shyr, the continent, is still there.
Not to mention that the whole thing of the Second Sundering was to restore Abeir and Toril to their former selves. Ao won't be restoring anything if he just toss all in Toril.
As for using stuff... I don't think they want to use the Abeir content. Their idea was to remove all stuff from 4e if possible. Dragonborn remained, but their mechanics and lore is so changed that they can't be considered the 4e dragonborn. Ed insist in using Laerakond, but that is because that is a creation of his that predates 4e (even if it was modified by 4e), but I don't think he cares for stuff he didn't created (like Shyr).
As for usability, I guess you can still use Shyr whether it is in Toril or in Abeir. You just need some portal and voila. And leaving it in Abeir has more interesting features than bringing it to Toril. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2022 : 19:49:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
We have something post second sundering that actually states that they know for certain that Shyr is still in Abeir post second sundering?
Namshita mentions that Gilgeam was about to launch a suicide attack on the city of Shyr (the nation Akanul was part of) when they got teleported in front of the ruins of Unthalass. Which means:
A. The capital of Shyr (the nation) is the equivalent to Unthalass in Abeir.
B. Shyr remained in Abeir.
Since they later go to the Dead Bones Mountains, and the dragonborn in the group recognized the place, this means that things in Abeir remained mostly the same as they remembered and Shyr, the continent, is still there.
Not to mention that the whole thing of the Second Sundering was to restore Abeir and Toril to their former selves. Ao won't be restoring anything if he just toss all in Toril.
As for using stuff... I don't think they want to use the Abeir content. Their idea was to remove all stuff from 4e if possible. Dragonborn remained, but their mechanics and lore is so changed that they can't be considered the 4e dragonborn. Ed insist in using Laerakond, but that is because that is a creation of his that predates 4e (even if it was modified by 4e), but I don't think he cares for stuff he didn't created (like Shyr).
As for usability, I guess you can still use Shyr whether it is in Toril or in Abeir. You just need some portal and voila. And leaving it in Abeir has more interesting features than bringing it to Toril.
A & B not "necessarily" true, as we've seen other places displaced that seem to be not "correspondingly" from the same place on the other world (by that I mean that the Vayemniri weren't in near or direct threat of Karshimis/Akanul and were actually part of Skelkor on Laerakond). It's almost like the displacement happened in portions while the world was spinning, and if not everything comes across at the same time it can come over a little "wonky". This might also explain why some of it "didn't go back".
From FRCS 4e page 212
History DC 25: Centuries before the appearance of dragonbane amber, a particularly able clan of dragonborn slaves rebelled and managed to hold an entire outlying province of Skelkor for itself for nearly two
centuries. The rebels named this province Tymanchebar, and lived free, though they were constantly threatened by flights of dragons. Then the Blue Breath of Change shook the land. When the skies returned to their silver hue, all saw that the heart of Tymanchebar, Djerad Thymar, was gone.
The point on the traversal to Abeir in the novels though, that is a good point, though at the same time... the spellplague and the sundering both didn't necessary happen in an instant. Some of the lands may transfer at different times. We do have notes of the second sundering occurring over like a year's time or so. It still could be very much done that we have Shyr come over and have it displace that continent to the SE of Zakhara (in whole or in part).... if only to start to give it SOMETHING of an idea of what's there. For those that want Osse to be there, it might that the transfer was partial and there's a portion of the continent with Gungari's people striving against the power of Karshimis...... and being so close to Zakhara and Kara-Tur (both of which have a strong link to the study of elemental magics in the form of wu-jen and elementalists, and Zakhara being devoted to genies) might present some other opportunities to do something there as well (or not).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 00:35:27
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Well, the map Somni drew of their lands in Abeir was described by Farideh as fairly close to Tymanther, with a few differences (like a bottomless Abyss to the south of the Ash Lake equivalent... that is also a lake as well). So we know the equivalents are actual.
As for Tymanchebar, according to "Gontal, Dominions of Nehu" (Dragon 375), Laerakond may have been "ripped of from Abeir" during the Spellplague, unlike the other places, that were just transposed. The cause was that the fortress of Nehusta exploded. As the fortress had chambers way down to the Underdark, basically the Spellplague went into the Underdark. Unlike other places, Tymanchebar fell into Unther like a meteor, because probably was ripped apart from Skelkor during the turmoil.
This also means that the Underdark below Laerakond is not your regular Underdark... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jan 2022 01:02:47 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 02:56:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I'm sure others have seen these before but I only stumbled on them a few months back. I'm guessing these are the maps Ed is referring to. My eyesight isn't what it used to be and free time is rare but maybe some young sage can coax out a secret that wasn't meant to be revealed.
map
map
Do remember Ed has a lot of tightrope walking to do when he talks publicly about the Realms. There's the obvious NDAs but them there is also trying not to step on other people's work, and not to completely up end home campaigns, the fact that he speaks on these matters at all is actually amazing.
Reading all this an interesting thought came to mind, which I am sure some would hate, but how "cool" would it be if one of the times WotC pushed the reset button we got Ed's original Realms. Gone all the changes added later, Maztica, Kara-Tur, etc. The second Sundering and phasing out of lands would have been a great opportunity. Would have been easy enough to patch them onto Abeir and keep some portals to link them for those who still wanted to use them.
I still can't believe they moved the star mounts in some editions further south. The star mounts only make sense in the deep heart of the forest or it ruins the song directing you to the Hall of Mists! In 3e they have it so far away just to put a dumb "HIGH FOREST" title inside.
Also, the great glacier's south south-west seems to be made of paper layered over the map's original copy. I wonder if beneath that literal paper glacier is literal penciled in secrets that have since become revealed by the retreating glacier in lore but not yet explored by module nor novel....
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
... and being so close to Zakhara and Kara-Tur (both of which have a strong link to the study of elemental magics in the form of wu-jen and elementalists, and Zakhara being devoted to genies) might present some other opportunities to do something there as well (or not).
I know this is referring to those who still wish to use the supplemental continents, but I am curious now that I am reminded of how much elemental culture can *claim* its origin from the djiin creatures of the south-eastern continent of Zakhara. However, if Zakhara was never intended by Ed then it makes me wonder how he would personally answer questions regarding the strong link to elemental magics and culture in specific regions- alien invasion by Calim and Memnon aside. Whenever you look into the origins of language and the cultural spread over the faaaaar southern regions of canon Toril from the west to the old empires then you get a lot of vague elemental and 'Zakharan' vibes without a clear source that I've recalled. There were djiin all over Toril long before the two famous genies showed up in the shining south, but no clear motivation on what they were doing during the formations of native languages and the introduction of alien languages. Before the ice genies of the Giants' city guard and long before the Bedine fought the djiin of Anauroch.
It always feels like the City of Brass is this complete (tyrannical) and timeless civilization that only needs to brush against a primordial planet at any stage of its development and suddenly you have the Primordial Language, Elemental Magics, as well as Society and Economics and Slavery. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 04 Jan 2022 03:12:26 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 13:44:21
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I'm sure others have seen these before but I only stumbled on them a few months back. I'm guessing these are the maps Ed is referring to. My eyesight isn't what it used to be and free time is rare but maybe some young sage can coax out a secret that wasn't meant to be revealed.
map
map
Do remember Ed has a lot of tightrope walking to do when he talks publicly about the Realms. There's the obvious NDAs but them there is also trying not to step on other people's work, and not to completely up end home campaigns, the fact that he speaks on these matters at all is actually amazing.
Reading all this an interesting thought came to mind, which I am sure some would hate, but how "cool" would it be if one of the times WotC pushed the reset button we got Ed's original Realms. Gone all the changes added later, Maztica, Kara-Tur, etc. The second Sundering and phasing out of lands would have been a great opportunity. Would have been easy enough to patch them onto Abeir and keep some portals to link them for those who still wanted to use them.
I still can't believe they moved the star mounts in some editions further south. The star mounts only make sense in the deep heart of the forest or it ruins the song directing you to the Hall of Mists! In 3e they have it so far away just to put a dumb "HIGH FOREST" title inside.
Also, the great glacier's south south-west seems to be made of paper layered over the map's original copy. I wonder if beneath that literal paper glacier is literal penciled in secrets that have since become revealed by the retreating glacier in lore but not yet explored by module nor novel....
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
... and being so close to Zakhara and Kara-Tur (both of which have a strong link to the study of elemental magics in the form of wu-jen and elementalists, and Zakhara being devoted to genies) might present some other opportunities to do something there as well (or not).
I know this is referring to those who still wish to use the supplemental continents, but I am curious now that I am reminded of how much elemental culture can *claim* its origin from the djiin creatures of the south-eastern continent of Zakhara. However, if Zakhara was never intended by Ed then it makes me wonder how he would personally answer questions regarding the strong link to elemental magics and culture in specific regions- alien invasion by Calim and Memnon aside. Whenever you look into the origins of language and the cultural spread over the faaaaar southern regions of canon Toril from the west to the old empires then you get a lot of vague elemental and 'Zakharan' vibes without a clear source that I've recalled. There were djiin all over Toril long before the two famous genies showed up in the shining south, but no clear motivation on what they were doing during the formations of native languages and the introduction of alien languages. Before the ice genies of the Giants' city guard and long before the Bedine fought the djiin of Anauroch.
It always feels like the City of Brass is this complete (tyrannical) and timeless civilization that only needs to brush against a primordial planet at any stage of its development and suddenly you have the Primordial Language, Elemental Magics, as well as Society and Economics and Slavery.
Bear in mind some things, his version of Thay (fire magic focus) was one that resembled in many ways the orient of our world, with "Russia/Slavic" lands above it (Rashemen) and frozen lands above that (Siberia?). He may say he never transposed our world into Toril, but everyone's done it in some form, even unintentionally. He also gave them cannons using an explosive (bombard oil), much like how china had mortars, catapult hurled bombs, firelances, etc..... He made them very lighter of skin as well, gave them a penchant for shaving their heads, etc... which around the time of FR's release was something seen in many depictions of the Asian people. Even their name, Mulan, is from ancient China. So, given the focus of China's magical lore on wuxing (which became the wu-jen later) having them focus on fire magic seems a good fit if you're wanting to make an evil society of warmongering slaver wizards. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 15:58:51
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<<<Bear in mind some things, his version of Thay (fire magic focus) was one that resembled in many ways the orient of our world, with "Russia/Slavic" lands above it (Rashemen) and frozen lands above that (Siberia?). He may say he never transposed our world into Toril, but everyone's done it in some form, even unintentionally. He also gave them cannons using an explosive (bombard oil), much like how china had mortars, catapult hurled bombs, firelances, etc..... He made them very lighter of skin as well, gave them a penchant for shaving their heads, etc... which around the time of FR's release was something seen in many depictions of the Asian people. Even their name, Mulan, is from ancient China.>>>
I think this is reaching a bit as an argument.
Also, the words "Mulan and Rashemi" were introduced by Steve Perrin in FR6, not Ed. Ed used the word "Rashemite" in the old gray box, but not "Mulan."
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 20:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
<<<Bear in mind some things, his version of Thay (fire magic focus) was one that resembled in many ways the orient of our world, with "Russia/Slavic" lands above it (Rashemen) and frozen lands above that (Siberia?). He may say he never transposed our world into Toril, but everyone's done it in some form, even unintentionally. He also gave them cannons using an explosive (bombard oil), much like how china had mortars, catapult hurled bombs, firelances, etc..... He made them very lighter of skin as well, gave them a penchant for shaving their heads, etc... which around the time of FR's release was something seen in many depictions of the Asian people. Even their name, Mulan, is from ancient China.>>>
I think this is reaching a bit as an argument.
Also, the words "Mulan and Rashemi" were introduced by Steve Perrin in FR6, not Ed. Ed used the word "Rashemite" in the old gray box, but not "Mulan."
--Eric
Ok, I'll retract the part about Mulan. It's hard to know as an outsider who introduced which pieces (especially in that early lore). We're kind of always told that Ed was handing people stacks of stuff to work from. Still, he did kind of make Thay somewhat asian influenced. I would say that later folks made them less of that, especially after old empires came out, which made them a lot different. Not sure how much of the whole Imaskar/Mulhorand/Unther becoming Thay and Chessenta was baked into Ed's stuff. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2022 : 22:34:51
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The original Old Empires that Ed conceived of sound interesting, though I have to admit I do like the current one too. I like as well that the Mulan are such an ancient civilization of humans that they have their own pantheon of gods which is separate and distinct from the standard Faerunian pantheon. And out of all the RW inspired places of Toril, I do feel the Old Empires is the one that fits the best with the rest of the setting and has the best lore, along with the Moonshae Isles. But they could certainly use an update (sad we didn't get more books in the 3rd edition era). The rest (Maztica, Kara-Tur, Hordelands) I am much less enthusiastic about, since they not only copy/mimic RW historical cultures but RW historical events and characters as well.
Also another point on RW influences. Ed has used plenty of RW gods (Tyr, Ilmater, Loviatar, Silvanus, etc.) as the basis of his Faerunian pantheon, so I don't see anything in wrong in principle about having some RW influences (i.e. the Mulhorandi pantheon). But of course the notable thing about RW-inspired FR gods is that they have a specific Realmsian character within the setting, and often have divergences from their original source. |
Edited by - deserk on 04 Jan 2022 22:43:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 00:09:54
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| It should also be noted that there is one hell of a difference between something influenced by the real world and something that is a direct copy of something in the real world. Much of the Heartlands area falls into that "idealized medieval-ish Western Europe" category that is practically the default, in fantasy, but no one sweats that one. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 00:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
This is a good overview:
https://twitter.com/theedverse/status/1132112465947504641
--Eric
Not really, that covers Mulhorand and Unther, but less so Thay and Chessenta (which my original point was Thay, less concerned with the other three as he's openly noted his distaste for those multiple times as almost real world correlations of Egypt, Mesopotamia and Greece). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 00:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
The rest (Maztica, Kara-Tur, Hordelands) I am much less enthusiastic about, since they not only copy/mimic RW historical cultures but RW historical events and characters as well.
Yeah, this is what I had the most problems with. Like you I'm not so much perturbed with the Mulhorand and Unther thing, but the blatant rip off of how Cordell/Cortez goes to Maztica was hard to swallow... the mongol horde uprising was done a little better, but something just didn't feel right there either. I actually like the idea of Pluma and Hishna magics and some other things in Maztica though.
I'm not sure which RW history you see repeating in Kara-Tur though (other than Wa being very much Feudal Japan and Shou Lung being very much Feudal China, etc....), but at the same time that's probably my weakest lore area in the world. I do know the "dragon wall"/ "great wall of china" thing did feel pretty cheesy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1452 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 01:02:43
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Would very much like to see a scroll on 'reconstructing' Ed's original Realms...
I'll see what I can dig up from previous Ed tweets... |
Edited by - questing gm on 05 Jan 2022 01:03:11 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 11:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, this is what I had the most problems with. Like you I'm not so much perturbed with the Mulhorand and Unther thing, but the blatant rip off of how Cordell/Cortez goes to Maztica was hard to swallow... the mongol horde uprising was done a little better, but something just didn't feel right there either. I actually like the idea of Pluma and Hishna magics and some other things in Maztica though.
There is some Maztican lore I like, but overall I think it's too RW derivative and therefore doesn't jam well with the rest of the Realms. I like the idea of there being Native American fantasy cultures, but there has to be something unique about them, otherwise why not just play in a historical setting?
And yeah Cordell/Cortez is the obvious sore thumb, but it's also how grossly inappropriate and inexplicable how the church of Helm has operated there (like crusading Christians attack "idolaters"). Helm is a god of guardians and defence, not someone who would tolerate such utterly unwarranted aggression, and not to mention FR has polytheistic faith, so why would they have any particular issues with Maztican gods? Also, Helm is not a particularly worshipped god in Amn, so it's a very strange choice for him to be a patron of this expedition. It would make a lot more sense if Waukeen was behind it (who is a neutral god and popular in Amn), in order to bring wealth and prosperity to Faerun by building new trade routes.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm not sure which RW history you see repeating in Kara-Tur though (other than Wa being very much Feudal Japan and Shou Lung being very much Feudal China, etc....)
Tabot has a Dalai Lama (Ra-Khati has another Dalai Lama). Chaunteans in Wa (rather than Helmites in Maztica) completely mimic the role and history of Christians in Japan. Not to mention every country in Kara-Tur is based on a RW country.
It's not that Kara-Tur and Maztica are bad settings, it's just stylistically they don't fit with the Realms. They've been kind of forcibly latched onto the Realms, and definitely in the case of Kara-Tur since it was originally conceived of as it's own independent setting.
Zakhara I kind of appreciate more being part of the Realms, since it's more based on Arabian Nights myths and folklore rather than based on specific RW Arabic countries or their history. So it feels more like a proper fantasy setting than Maztica and Kara-Tur, in my opinion.
However I am extremely curious what the actual continents that are West, South and East of Faerun are like in Ed's original Forgotten Realms. And to be frank, I would welcome them replacing Maztica, Zakhara and Kara-Tur since they would obviously fit more with the style and tone of the Forgotten Realms setting. What little bits he's said of the Utter East or the continent of Thuin sound quite intriguing.
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm hoping to find out as much as possible about Ed's original and merge the two.
I noted recently that Ed detailed two "kings" of Mulhorand and Unther that fought each other to the near destruction of their empires. I'm intending to use those to people in Raurin in the proto Mulhorand and Unther civilisations that arose before the Mulan people abandoned Raurin and moved west.
Similarly with the Moonshaes, Ed's original had trade cartels warring for control in the region, i tried (rather inexpertly) to weave that into the history of Corwell and Alaron.
Both of those are real good ideas and would help add a lot more flavour to the Old Empires and the Moonshae Isles. I think hybridizing these two visions of the published Old Empires/Moonshaes as well as Ed's vision would be great and help give a more distinct flavour to these regions. |
Edited by - deserk on 05 Jan 2022 11:56:14 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2022 : 13:38:57
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While I think Ed's vision would be great, I give as much weight to a lot of the people here, and especially some of the other designers. Ed dribbles his vision out though, so you have to take the reigns and do something with it or nothing will ever get done. That being said, the man is also prolific as hell in detailing minutiae of regions he's already done to death. I know some people here don't seem to like to design as much and more want to catalog what has been already said as well (and lord knows you need that as well, gods bless those who work on the FR wiki). I also find a lot of times too, someone here drops an idea that with a slight "twist" added to it becomes something really inspiring.
On the other stuff mentioned about the regions
Yeah, the portrayal of Helm was definitely dark as well. They were seemingly trying to lambaste him for his role in the ToT at the time, and it felt like they were trying to turn him into a scapegoat. He was doing his role (defending the bifros.... I mean celestial staircase). That being said, Helm as LN can have priests that go evil in the name of bringing "order" to things. What I always felt was kind of interesting is that the portrayal of Qotal was more of a defender of his people than Helm (granted Qotal was also portrayed such that he could fit other entities with his ties to butterflies, jungles, etc...). I had always half wondered if we were going to find out that the arrival of "Helm" and the return of "Qotal" were somehow linked when I first read it (obviously didn't happen and later they linked Qotal and Ubtao).
On Kara-tur
Now that you mention it, I remember the dalai lama thing too, and thinking that was a bit unsettling.... oddly I think if they'd just named it different the jarring nature wouldn't have been so noticeable. I'm not so much upset over Faerunian gods showing up in the east, but it would have been good if they'd showed something of the eastern gods of nature showing up to push against the incursion. That's a point where I think they were trying to write so much that they couldn't sit back, breathe, and go "what would happen next".
I have no problems at all that I can think of with Zakhara (now I may not like an idea here or there or want to tweak something to better tie some tie to Faerun here and there mind you), and I liked the ideas of the Isle of the Necromancer Kings showing up in the Complete Book of Necromancers.
On replacing Kara-tur, Zakhara, and Maztica
I won't say I would welcome them replacing those ENTIRE regions however. The reason why is that they tend to focus on single concept ideas (look at Strixhaven, Ravnica, Theros) when they come out with new lore in 5e. To be fair, it happens to many designers that that's how they design (myself included). However, if we as a collective look at each individual area and what already exists and see the problems and look into tweaking it instead, or using a scalpel to remove certain small parts, I don't think there will be as much of a problem. Granted, that's kind of what set people off with the spellplague, but I don't think people would be upset with these modifications in places like Kara-tur and Maztica (personally fine with them not touching Zakhara unless they just want to advance the timeline). I think it would be better if they posit the following questions with those regions (with "region" being smaller pieces like X country, Y jungle area, Z desert area, etc... not whole continents)
1) Did the region go to Abeir, somewhere else, or stay in Faerun in the spellplague?
2) Did the region go to Abeir, somewhere else, or stay in Faerun in the second sundering?
3) Did the region RETURN from Abeir or somewhere else in the second sundering?
4) If it went to another world, what happened to the population that was there while it was in the other world?
5) If it went to another world, did some other population move into the territory while it was in the other world?
So, like in Maztica/Anchorome there is a HUGE swathe of the region that's a desert with some arable land leading towards the western coast. If we suddenly found out that some portion of Abeir had appeared there and replaced a few of those cities to throw a change to the region, that's fine. Large swathes of it are just empty desert or jungle, so whole societies may have grown up. That being said, I personally like most of what Seethyr's tried to do with the region.
One other thing I would like to see with these outlying regions is the influence of prior empires of Faerun appearing there and either failing or succeeding. For instance, one of the things we had discussed in the past was the idea of Netherese visiting the other continents and trying to make a go of it with their enclaves. Similarly, old batrachi, aearee, sarrukh, spellweaver, giant, draconic, aboleth, mind flayer, beholder, dragonborn, elven, dwarven, orcs, goblinoids, gnolls, tabaxi, centaurs, wemics, halflings, gnomes, exiled fey'ri, etc.... societies might have once held sway OR STILL HOLD SWAY in these parts of the world. One of the things I always noted about Zakhara, for instance, was that it had numerous giant societies which seemingly had no ties to the children of Annam by Othea. So, were they other children of Othea? Interlopers from another world? Natural giants that sprang up on Toril? We have several giant "types" that have come out in the last twenty years that could have an interesting storyline if placed elsewhere in Toril for their origins. For instance, if Eldritch or death giants originated in Katashaka or on Abeir. Abeiran societies might have found footholds and grown there as well (for instance the Eminence of Araunt may have some great undead Empire now that vies with the Shou Emperor and has been raiding the "spirit world" bringing ancestor spirits back to undeath and turning them against the emperor).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 18:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, just to open up discussion... this fit?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qaeZBkttPV6S0ru1Ed0x0Hw2rEpZC3w8/view?usp=sharing
On Osse, I open up the question again... what do we know of it as a "continent" versus it being "a place on a continent" or even it being "a place in another world that he came here from". I know it was in lady of poison, but I don't remember what all was said, except that it was where Gungari came from. For all we know "Osse" was possibly in Abeir and Gungari came here from there? Or maybe it's in the collection of islands off Zakhara's west coast or the crowded sea in the far south.
I'd still put "Osse" label on it somewhere to be more completionist with the discussion and research. It's widely accepted as Osse, considering it's distance from everything else I doubt it's Thuin or Arandorn at all.
Also why can't we just assume that landmass to the west of Maztica is Laerakond? The shape is pretty similar. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 19:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Mages are incredibly cheap when you are one.
Being a mage doesn't mean that you don't have to spend anything on spell components and casting. It also doesn't mean that you're automatically willing to spend months getting to some unknown place for possibly no return at all.
Sticking to solely humans, they've been around for millenia in Faerun as the dominant force. In all those thousands of years, no groups did the exploring for the sake of the adventure and discovery? For the assumption of a great reward? Many the ambitious believe great risks bring great rewards. Even Columbus assumed they'd reach India going west, it was a risk they all took, but even before Columbus there were people who sailed their prior such as the vikings.
Those clerics of Shaundakul, Selune and Oghma must not be doing a good job promoting their faiths, all of which would be the motivation behind such ventures. Especially Shaundakul.
I'm more willing to believe a story (or stories( that's universal throughout Faerun where there's a great taboo to journeying too far overseas, or through massive terrains (Hordelands, Yehimals, various glaciers).
Except that's not what we get in the overall atmosphere of the world setting. We're always given stories of tons of explorers, adventurers, portal networks practically everywhere (it gives off an impression that Toril is like a mini-Sigil at times) and great magics accomplishing the greatest of feats (right up to toppling the very goddess of Mystra herself), but somehow in those millenia there's still mysteries to the largest of land masses. Personally, I find the fact that Maztica was "discovered" in the 1360s to be ludicrous, it should have been known about many centuries before that.
If the worldview of Faerunians is to be extremely isolationist and exploration beyond known borders is an extremely rare occurence (A.K.A. only player characters of the game would dare such a venture) then I wish the setting did a better job at portraying that. Instead it does the opposite. It greatly encourages it.
It begs the question why WotC not only mislabeled these lands as "Unknown" but then also discourages exploration there entirely through sheer ignorance and invisibility to them. I honestly would have preferred them to delete all those continents, and just keep the actual published ones. Wouldn't that have been a much better, and easier, thing for them to do? The Second Sundering would have been perfect to "shrink" Toril to something much more manageable and far less questionable. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 19:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
The rest (Maztica, Kara-Tur, Hordelands) I am much less enthusiastic about, since they not only copy/mimic RW historical cultures but RW historical events and characters as well.
Yeah, this is what I had the most problems with. Like you I'm not so much perturbed with the Mulhorand and Unther thing, but the blatant rip off of how Cordell/Cortez goes to Maztica was hard to swallow... the mongol horde uprising was done a little better, but something just didn't feel right there either. I actually like the idea of Pluma and Hishna magics and some other things in Maztica though.
I'm not sure which RW history you see repeating in Kara-Tur though (other than Wa being very much Feudal Japan and Shou Lung being very much Feudal China, etc....), but at the same time that's probably my weakest lore area in the world. I do know the "dragon wall"/ "great wall of china" thing did feel pretty cheesy.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It should also be noted that there is one hell of a difference between something influenced by the real world and something that is a direct copy of something in the real world. Much of the Heartlands area falls into that "idealized medieval-ish Western Europe" category that is practically the default, in fantasy, but no one sweats that one.
As a kid getting into the game, I never question the dominant Euro-style of fantasy gaming. That's the age where you're taught certain things and unless you're wise beyond your age, you don't usually question the source and the bias. It just gets presented as "this is the norm."
Currently, I question it all. If fantasy is going to be influenced by real-world myths/stories/legends/culture, why only European? I would want the rest, as well.
Which was why I dived into Maztica/Zakhara/Kara-Tur/Hordelands so quickly (Although, little did I know back then how awfully Western-fetishized and trope-ish it all is, it's now extremely uncomfortable to me today and WotC ignoring to remaster those regions is very problematic).
There's a YouTube channel I came upon several months ago, I highly recommend everyone check it out, but the channel is called Asians Represent Podcast and there's a Playlist titled "Asians Read Kara-Tur" as well as "Asians Read Al-Qadim." The guy who manages it actually wrote one of the adventures for Candlekeep Mysteries. (as a tangent, it angered me that WotC did NOT let him use the Monks of the Long Death in the adventure, which he believed would have been a much better fit for the adventure, because they had to be written with corebooks in mind only...one of the reasons I can't stand what WotC is doing to the Realms in 5e is the blatant erasure/ignorance of other Realmslore).
But I listened to those videos and...I nearly chucked my Kara-Tur material out the door at the horror of how extremely terribly written they all were  Those other sub-settings need a critical rework for sure. Which WotC doesn't want to do, just shove it in a deep, dark corner and forget about it.
It's why I wish Toril was more like Golarion, because Paizo definitely went that route of representing all forms of fantasy (as well as genres of fantasy such as ancient, medieval, rennaisance, horror-themed, steampunk, which annoys me why Lantan gets shafted often, and even sci-fi!) from variously inspired real-world cultures without being a copy of any of them at all and it's well known and popular for it.
Heck, I may as well say it since I've said it to others before; Golarion for Pathfinder is what Toril should have been for D&D.
Well I'll post the link, I recommend people educate themselves on this. It was very enlightening. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbQUmmaVBxqrsat-Zi_ID4qt6jrrw0JL2
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Edited by - Razz on 26 Feb 2022 19:58:27 |
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Ed's reveal of a continent name Arandron
