| Author |
 Topic  |
|
LadyNukshia
Acolyte
Spain
4 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 08:57:30
|
Hi Everyone
So a few days ago Ed Greenwood answered in twiter...
Franklin Alcantara @FAlsentar · 21 oct.2021
Great sage @TheEdVerse, I've been meaning to ask you, Can anyone become a wizard?
What I mean is, if you study hard enough, anyone can become a astrophysict, but is this the same case with wizards? Or do you need to be born with some kind of magical spark?
Ed Greenwood @TheEdVerse ·22 oct.
You need to have the Gift: that is, the aptitude for wielding the Art. In most cases, born with it, though some individuals develop it after being "caught" in magic, or a god imbues them with lasting spell ability as opposed to once.
That's just to become a wizard, mind; there are many other roads in the Realms to wielding magic.
And yes, the hard studying (=experimentation and casting practice) is also part of mastering wizardry.
Groudon466 @groudon466 ·22 oct. En respuesta a @TheEdVerse
Can the Gift be stolen from someone? Or otherwise acquired quite deliberately, through study of where to go and what to do/expose one's self to?
Ed Greenwood @TheEdVerse ·22 oct.
No, the Gift cannot be stolen. Down the centuries, some have tried to acquire it by going to the right places, doing the right things, and having the right experiences. A few have succeeded, but...did they already have it, and just hadn't awakened/triggered it? ? #Realmslore
link.: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1451335833768939529
I know, each DM do what it wants in their table/setting, that's part of the beauty of this world.
If you were to apply this new insight for wizards, how would you do it?
(I'll answer when I give it more thought and find the words)
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 18:39:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Apply it as written.
Ed has stated before fewer than 1 in 400 people have the gift and are smart enough to become wizards. Fewer still survive the first few years of wizard hood. Much much less become accomplished wizards of skill.
This accounts for why there aren't wizards everywhere in FR.
That being said the above only applies to humans (elves are closely attuned to the weave and have much higher rates of the gift).
Also this only applies to wizards (ie weave casters), there are many hundreds of different types of magic use that do not use the weave and do not require the gift. Rune casters, table magic, ritual magic, blood magic, pact magic, etc.
I'd be interested to see that quote (not saying its wrong mind you, but sometimes there's some other wording around it and we tend to condense it down). I would also note that the athora is Ed's creation per George, and that's noted for making spellcasters more common that grow up near it. I'd wonder just HOW MUCH artifacts LIKE that affect things in their surroundings, and I would also wonder if great cities don't grow up in those areas for precisely those reasons and NOT reasons like "good waterways" or "fertile soil" or "lots to hunt". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
 |
|
|
The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 18:53:09
|
I do remember there was also some magic do-dad that imparted magical ability to those otherwise incapable. A needle or something like that. I can't even begin to remember where that was from though as it was always irrelevant to me since, from a campaign stand-point - magical ability is wherever the DM says it is :)
|
|
|
|
questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1451 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2021 : 07:31:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Ed has stated before fewer than 1 in 400 people have the gift and are smart enough to become wizards. Fewer still survive the first few years of wizard hood. Much much less become accomplished wizards of skill.
This accounts for why there aren't wizards everywhere in FR.
That being said the above only applies to humans (elves are closely attuned to the weave and have much higher rates of the gift).
Also this only applies to wizards (ie weave casters), there are many hundreds of different types of magic use that do not use the weave and do not require the gift. Rune casters, table magic, ritual magic, blood magic, pact magic, etc.
I'd be interested to see that quote (not saying its wrong mind you, but sometimes there's some other wording around it and we tend to condense it down)...
I'm not sure if this is the exact quote/tweet mentioned, but I did find this Twitter thread by Ed on spellcaster ratios: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1344157204505571335?fbclid=IwAR06TNPCJ0_yDYiOrIfMNQ5dDQPJAuJQOeCR_YX3pWWEnOM0b-5EwNYBmy0
(I really need a new way to retrace these tweets, *opens up a new unending project*  ) |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2021 : 11:19:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by questing gm
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Ed has stated before fewer than 1 in 400 people have the gift and are smart enough to become wizards. Fewer still survive the first few years of wizard hood. Much much less become accomplished wizards of skill.
This accounts for why there aren't wizards everywhere in FR.
That being said the above only applies to humans (elves are closely attuned to the weave and have much higher rates of the gift).
Also this only applies to wizards (ie weave casters), there are many hundreds of different types of magic use that do not use the weave and do not require the gift. Rune casters, table magic, ritual magic, blood magic, pact magic, etc.
I'd be interested to see that quote (not saying its wrong mind you, but sometimes there's some other wording around it and we tend to condense it down)...
I'm not sure if this is the exact quote/tweet mentioned, but I did find this Twitter thread by Ed on spellcaster ratios: https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1344157204505571335?fbclid=IwAR06TNPCJ0_yDYiOrIfMNQ5dDQPJAuJQOeCR_YX3pWWEnOM0b-5EwNYBmy0
(I really need a new way to retrace these tweets, *opens up a new unending project* )
So, based on all that from THAT tweet, then there should only be about 10 wizards in all of Waterdeep. I like Ed, but sometimes his maths aren't always the same.... and I realize part of it is probably that he's asked these questions left and right and he's throwing together things fast and furiously. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2021 : 21:34:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, based on all that from THAT tweet, then there should only be about 10 wizards in all of Waterdeep. I like Ed, but sometimes his maths aren't always the same.... and I realize part of it is probably that he's asked these questions left and right and he's throwing together things fast and furiously.
The "problem" is not in math. Or on Ed's end at all.
"1 in 400 people" does not mean they are forcibly evenly distributed.
In case of wizards, it's safe to assume the opposite: aspiring wizard apprentices will move toward what they think is their best chance to get trained. Most of them will not return, so the flow is largely one-sided, even counting hedge wizards and the ones who semi-retire to a tower in some quiet backwater (but these often live outside settlements).
The increased density of wizards in Waterdeep is the flip side of wizards being largely absent in dozens of places like Kheldell. Just at a glance through The North: Leilon has population of 3000, and only a long-abandoned wizard tower; the Cult of the Dragon picked it, obviously, exactly because they won't need to watch over their shoulders much, as there are no mentions of living local wizards.
There are small places with more than a loner wizard, yet those have good reasons to stay. A few in Amphail, but they are all from one family... that also owns land and business (which happens to be a lot more exciting and prestigious than growing cabbage). Longsaddle is a similar story: Harpells enjoy stable income, company and status where they are. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 02 Nov 2021 03:34:03 |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
|
|
TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 06:58:40
|
A bit of an aside, but...
What functionally *is* supposed to be the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard anyways? It seems like there's two main parts to it? One is the degree magical attunement/how naturally gifted you are, and the other is essentially how you nurture and develop your skill in the art?
Like there's nothing fundamentally stopping some whitebeard wizard from taking on one of these spellcasting prodigy tykes as an apprentice and giving them a proper wizard's education, right? Considering how rare folks with the gift already are, you'd think wizards would be hoovering up anyone showing considerable natural talent the moment it manifests. So 'sorcerers' just self-taught mages who somehow never got that education and through some combination of luck, intuition and trial and error have managed to reach a level of control without blowing themselves up (yet?). That's what it seems to me at least.
I have noticed in the literature (and even in some of the tabletop rules) that the distinction between many of the hallmarks of one or the other 'class' (spellbooks, spell components, spontaneous casting, metamagic etc) seem to blur quite a bit, so maybe it's best to not think of them as so starkly disparate? |
Edited by - TKU on 02 Nov 2021 07:04:31 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2021 : 11:15:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Also 1 in 400 probably refers to births. Since powerful wizards live longer and are attracted to the trade rich cities because of resource availability, there are likely to be more powerful wizards in waterdeep than 1 in 400
Yeah, you're saying 1 in 400, but the tweet that someone else quoted is what I was just talking about was like 1 in 9000 and then that was further broken out (but he did use D&D terms). The 1 in 400 I find a bit more viable, and for the same reasons noted (wizards will gravitate to certain places for various reasons). That's why I'd still like to see the original quote that you know of still. I will note here too, that "tweet" doesn't exactly reference FR, so that might be "another world" he was talking about for all I know... though that would be odd. But in looking at his tweets, it seems he does also talk about some other world as well that I know nothing about. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2021 : 23:01:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
A bit of an aside, but...
What functionally *is* supposed to be the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard anyways? It seems like there's two main parts to it? One is the degree magical attunement/how naturally gifted you are, and the other is essentially how you nurture and develop your skill in the art?
Like there's nothing fundamentally stopping some whitebeard wizard from taking on one of these spellcasting prodigy tykes as an apprentice and giving them a proper wizard's education, right? Considering how rare folks with the gift already are, you'd think wizards would be hoovering up anyone showing considerable natural talent the moment it manifests. So 'sorcerers' just self-taught mages who somehow never got that education and through some combination of luck, intuition and trial and error have managed to reach a level of control without blowing themselves up (yet?). That's what it seems to me at least.
I have noticed in the literature (and even in some of the tabletop rules) that the distinction between many of the hallmarks of one or the other 'class' (spellbooks, spell components, spontaneous casting, metamagic etc) seem to blur quite a bit, so maybe it's best to not think of them as so starkly disparate?
This is a good source of motivation for the Ultimate Magus prestige class. The Simbul also would fit well with your ideas. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2021 : 23:54:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
A bit of an aside, but...
What functionally *is* supposed to be the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard anyways? It seems like there's two main parts to it? One is the degree magical attunement/how naturally gifted you are, and the other is essentially how you nurture and develop your skill in the art?
Like there's nothing fundamentally stopping some whitebeard wizard from taking on one of these spellcasting prodigy tykes as an apprentice and giving them a proper wizard's education, right? Considering how rare folks with the gift already are, you'd think wizards would be hoovering up anyone showing considerable natural talent the moment it manifests. So 'sorcerers' just self-taught mages who somehow never got that education and through some combination of luck, intuition and trial and error have managed to reach a level of control without blowing themselves up (yet?). That's what it seems to me at least.
I have noticed in the literature (and even in some of the tabletop rules) that the distinction between many of the hallmarks of one or the other 'class' (spellbooks, spell components, spontaneous casting, metamagic etc) seem to blur quite a bit, so maybe it's best to not think of them as so starkly disparate?
Charisma changed over the years from "its how you look" to more like "it's your raw, personal power"... so sorcerers may not be able to function as wizards because they can't analytically study magic. Sorcerers are thus something akin to rain man and have an innate understanding of some aspects of magic but may not be able to convey HOW they do it. Sorcerers can do what they know well though and modify it on the fly..... its just they can't learn as much. Wizards on the other hand can analytically learn more, but they don't have a "feel for it" to modify it on the fly.
Now, getting the mechanics to match that... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2021 : 01:08:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by LadyNukshia
Franklin Alcantara @FAlsentar · 21 oct.2021
Great sage @TheEdVerse, I've been meaning to ask you, Can anyone become a wizard?
What I mean is, if you study hard enough, anyone can become a astrophysict, but is this the same case with wizards? Or do you need to be born with some kind of magical spark?
I feel like the question asked is flawed. This person believes the lie that parents tell their children "you can be anything you want to be if you try".
Realistically, really short people can almost never be basketball players. People with very bad vision, will definitely never be fighter pilots. The same is true for mental acumen, many people just do not have a head for numbers, they will never be able to do countless tasks no matter how much studying they do. This spark Ed talks about may very well exhibit itself as a mind/body/soul built to understand/interact with magic.
As far as my table this doesn't break anything. Your PC studied a lot and became a wizard? No problem he had the spark. Countless others didn't.
This scroll does bring up other curious things via those links. Like what is the population of Faerun and the race, class, level distributions. Twenty or so years ago after the release of the 3e FRCS I reached out to a someone at Wizards via email, it may have been Sean K. Reynolds, Richard Baker, Skip Williams, or Jeff Grubb, and I had asked that very question. And crazy enough, they replied to me, with a list of numbers! Sadly the internet is a very unkind mistress and that email address was deleted due to disuse. Maybe someone else here has it. Or maybe someone here still has contact with one of them and can see if they still have it.
I can't be sure, but I vaguely remember realizing that it followed the 3e leadership rules for followers. So the distribution for 2.56m fighters would be something like:
L1: 2,560,000
L2: 256,000
L3: 128,000
L4: 64,000
L5: 32,000
L6: 16,000
L7: 8,000
L8: 4,000
L9: 2,000
L10: 1,000
L11: 500
L12: 250
L13: 125
L14: 63
L15: 32
L16: 16
L17: 8
L18: 4
L19: 2
L20: 1
The total population may have been all the population numbers from the 3e FRCS added up. Again it was a long time ago. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 12 Nov 2021 01:10:40 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2021 : 12:59:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
quote:
Originally posted by LadyNukshia
Franklin Alcantara @FAlsentar · 21 oct.2021
Great sage @TheEdVerse, I've been meaning to ask you, Can anyone become a wizard?
What I mean is, if you study hard enough, anyone can become a astrophysict, but is this the same case with wizards? Or do you need to be born with some kind of magical spark?
I feel like the question asked is flawed. This person believes the lie that parents tell their children "you can be anything you want to be if you try".
Realistically, really short people can almost never be basketball players. People with very bad vision, will definitely never be fighter pilots. The same is true for mental acumen, many people just do not have a head for numbers, they will never be able to do countless tasks no matter how much studying they do. This spark Ed talks about may very well exhibit itself as a mind/body/soul built to understand/interact with magic.
As far as my table this doesn't break anything. Your PC studied a lot and became a wizard? No problem he had the spark. Countless others didn't.
This scroll does bring up other curious things via those links. Like what is the population of Faerun and the race, class, level distributions. Twenty or so years ago after the release of the 3e FRCS I reached out to a someone at Wizards via email, it may have been Sean K. Reynolds, Richard Baker, Skip Williams, or Jeff Grubb, and I had asked that very question. And crazy enough, they replied to me, with a list of numbers! Sadly the internet is a very unkind mistress and that email address was deleted due to disuse. Maybe someone else here has it. Or maybe someone here still has contact with one of them and can see if they still have it.
I can't be sure, but I vaguely remember realizing that it followed the 3e leadership rules for followers. So the distribution for 2.56m fighters would be something like:
L1: 2,560,000
L2: 256,000
L3: 128,000
L4: 64,000
L5: 32,000
L6: 16,000
L7: 8,000
L8: 4,000
L9: 2,000
L10: 1,000
L11: 500
L12: 250
L13: 125
L14: 63
L15: 32
L16: 16
L17: 8
L18: 4
L19: 2
L20: 1
The total population may have been all the population numbers from the 3e FRCS added up. Again it was a long time ago.
Good way to phrase it.... and that "spark" may be intelligence (although intelligence alone can be different things, like some have a memory for more terms as in fact-based and others are more mathproblem solving oriented... arguably other things like story writing might be more charisma or wisdom based). Combine that with a desire to become a mage, access to someone willing to train you, and enough money to cover expenses. Some people just don't have the intelligence to be a mage. I honestly feel like the multiclassing rules in 5e as far as "ability score requirements to multiclass into a class" should apply towards "if you want to be this class at all". It's not like their stringent.. they just show you have to have "slightly better than the average". So, like most humans would have a 10 or 11 intelligence. If we were rolling 3 dice for ability scores, only about 26% would have a score of 13 or higher
What do I mean by that "all classes should follow the multiclass rules"? Posting that ruleset for those who would like to stay in the conversation but who may not closely follow 5e.
Multiclassing Prerequisites
Class Ability Score Minimum
Artificer Intelligence
Barbarian Strength 13
Bard Charisma 13
Cleric Wisdom 13
Druid Wisdom 13
Fighter Strength 13 or Dexterity 13
Monk Dexterity 13 and Wisdom 13
Paladin Strength 13 and Charisma 13
Ranger Dexterity 13 and Wisdom 13
Rogue Dexterity 13
Sorcerer Charisma 13
Warlock Charisma 13
Wizard Intelligence 13
Then just because someone has an intelligence 13 doesn't mean they are headed towards that. They may have another ability score of equal OR BETTER value and have more of an inkling to pursue that (I see temples quickly taking up local kids that show any ability with wisdom). Some with intelligence may not have a local resource or be more inclined to "follow in their parents footsteps" as a tradesman skilled with magic (i.e. artificer). In fact, many of what we hear of called "hedge mages" and "hedge wizards" could easily fall under the concept of the artificer (as an alchemist for instance, they may brew simple potions and alchemical concoctions). In fact, I was recently exploring the idea that the artificer should have many more subclass options that aren't the "mad scientist" approach. I was looking at the concept of plumaweavers, hishnashapers, and "hornsculptors" as three approaches to people who focus on weaving, leatherworking, poisons, and woodcarving (my hornsculptors focus on working with horn, wood, and antler). I could also see glyphscribes |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Nov 2021 13:28:37 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2021 : 18:20:43
|
| That answer to the question looks an awful lot like the 2E version I offered earlier in the scroll, lol. WotC rewriting their own stuff again - math/logic errors and all. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2021 : 21:10:19
|
I'm not very familiar with 5e but coming from 3.5e I tried not to let people be defined by there classes. If a class gave the character the function he wanted to exhibit in game I really didn't care what title that class had. So I'm sort of against limiting entry into classes based on ability stats. But for NPCs... this actually might be an interesting approach.
Edit*I based my math off bad math I found on the internet. Moral, do your own math from scratch, thank you Sleyvas for point it out. I removed it in hopes no one else stumbles on it.*/Edit
I just remembered that the 3.5e DMG actually has rules for this, p.138, the section is actually titled "Total Characters of Each Class".
Using Beregost as an example, population 2,915, on average a Large Town like that would look like:
Adps: 17: 1x L6, 2x L3, 14x L1
Aris: 17: 1x L5, 2x L3, 14x L1
Coms: 2,550: 1x L13, 2x L7, 4x L3, 2,543x L1
Exps: 91: 1x L10, 2x L5, 4x L2, 84x L1
Wars: 147: 1x L8, 2x L4, 4x L2, 140x L1
2,822
Brds: 7: 1x L6, 2x L3, 4x L1
Brbs: 7: 1x L5, 2x L3, 4x L1
Clrs: 7: 1x L6, 2x L3, 4x L1
Drds: 7: 1x L6, 2x L3, 4x L1
Ftrs: 15: 1x L7, 2x L4, 4x L2, 8x L1
Mnks: 7: 1x L5, 2x L3, 4x L1
Pals: 7: 1x L5, 2x L3, 4x L1
Rngs: 7: 1x L5, 2x L3, 4x L1
Rogs: 15: 1x L7, 2x L4, 4x L2, 8x L1
Sors: 7: 1x L5, 2x L3, 4x L1
Wizs: 7: 1x L5, 2x L3, 4x L1
93
So roughly 3% have PC class levels.
All these numbers are fun and all but how to reconcile this with Ed's, not sure. Could all come down how distribution as has been mentioned before. Maybe anything that counts as a town, city, etc is still unbalanced towards casters. Another thread recently pointed out that Waterdeep might have magical energies that draw people there as much as the terrain maybe all cities and towns have something like that to lesser degree and thus yield more casters from the ambient energy. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 14 Nov 2021 05:08:57 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2021 : 07:27:51
|
Of course all these numerical analyses sidestep one non-quantifiable detail.
Some people have a special talent for magic. Most people do not. No amount of training and study and practice can make a spellcaster out of somebody who lacks the special gift of magic. Or so it's said in AD&D-era lore, anyhow, where being able to understand and wield magic was described as "Art", not "Science".
This seems to be contraindicated by the sheer preponderance of spellcasting NPCs in Realmslore. It seems like every town has a pile of priests and wizards, and like every modest population hub can boast at least a few "famous" persons capable of casting the highest-level magics. So maybe almost anyone could learn magic, maybe magic saturates the world so heavily that indeed everyone does learn some "common" magics without even being aware of it (this might explain things like "superhuman" hit points and saving throws which allow heroes to survive encounters with dragons, etc).
Some Realmslore implies that magic runs in family bloodlines - you can be a mage because your parent was a mage, you can't be a mage because your parent was a dumb fighter. A trait passed on down generations, and those who inherit it usually somehow (almost inevitably) end up developing it.
Some Realmslore implies that magic requires some sort of supernatural contact. A blessing, a curse, a deity, a celestial, a fiend, a monster, an artifact, a special place, another spellcaster, a residual magic. Perhaps by accident, perhaps by deliberate choice. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2021 : 14:17:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I'm not very familiar with 5e but coming from 3.5e I tried not to let people be defined by there classes. If a class gave the character the function he wanted to exhibit in game I really didn't care what title that class had. So I'm sort of against limiting entry into classes based on ability stats. But for NPCs... this actually might be an interesting approach.
Say an NPC with PC class levels had to have at least a 13 in one stat that gives us about 30%:
<snip>
Just to note, its roughly 26% chance to have a 13 or above in each stat when considered individually (if rolling 3d6)..... thus with 6 tries and a 26% chance on each of the 6, MOST individuals would qualify for SOME class (whether its by having a 13 int or a 13 str or a 13 dex, etc...). The only stat that's not a qualifier for a class is constitution, so the rare person who got a 13 in that but no other score would just be a kind of unremarkable healthy person. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Nov 2021 14:18:27 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2021 : 14:42:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Of course all these numerical analyses sidestep one non-quantifiable detail.
Some people have a special talent for magic. Most people do not. No amount of training and study and practice can make a spellcaster out of somebody who lacks the special gift of magic. Or so it's said in AD&D-era lore, anyhow, where being able to understand and wield magic was described as "Art", not "Science".
This seems to be contraindicated by the sheer preponderance of spellcasting NPCs in Realmslore. It seems like every town has a pile of priests and wizards, and like every modest population hub can boast at least a few "famous" persons capable of casting the highest-level magics. So maybe almost anyone could learn magic, maybe magic saturates the world so heavily that indeed everyone does learn some "common" magics without even being aware of it (this might explain things like "superhuman" hit points and saving throws which allow heroes to survive encounters with dragons, etc).
Some Realmslore implies that magic runs in family bloodlines - you can be a mage because your parent was a mage, you can't be a mage because your parent was a dumb fighter. A trait passed on down generations, and those who inherit it usually somehow (almost inevitably) end up developing it.
Some Realmslore implies that magic requires some sort of supernatural contact. A blessing, a curse, a deity, a celestial, a fiend, a monster, an artifact, a special place, another spellcaster, a residual magic. Perhaps by accident, perhaps by deliberate choice.
It could also be that that supernatural contact "opens someone's eyes" to a new perspective.... ala Newton and the apple, Archimedes and the bathwater displaced by him sitting in it, etc.... so someone who is hit by magic may suddenly become a sorcerer because they have the charisma required and a sudden insight into "how it happened".
Along these same lines, magic occurring in family lines may be because the people involved have access to the methods and individuals predisposed to explain it to them.
Not saying it should be one way or another, but I agree with you in that this "you have to be special" is contraindicated by the fact that every village tends to be described as having at least one temple with a cleric, a village wizard or sorcerer, and usually they're not 1st level, etc... If we go with the 1 in 400 number for each of the classes I through out above, that would be 13 individuals out of every 400 that become adventurers (that being said, monks, paladins, and rangers would be rarer and arguably fighters would be more common as they have an OR instead of an AND). If we assumed that the numbers for fighters was doubled or tripled and came up with 16 out of every 400 is an adventurer... that's about 4% of the population. That seems viable to me for a world in which there are a LOT more threats than our own world.... I'd actually say it seems a little low. It might be worth noting the time factor required in training someone to be a wizard as well, versus time requirement to train them to be a fighter (not that learning to be a fighter is just throw a sword at them and done, but one might require only a year of training), but that might make the numbers of that class also skyrocket in comparison (so maybe its 20 fighters to every wizard just because of time commitments, and we have 32 out of every 400 individuals is an adventurer to some degree (8%).... many of whom may quickly retire to being a farmer, barkeep, inn owner, etc....). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2021 : 16:43:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Some people have a special talent for magic. Most people do not. No amount of training and study and practice can make a spellcaster out of somebody who lacks the special gift of magic. Or so it's said in AD&D-era lore, anyhow, where being able to understand and wield magic was described as "Art", not "Science".
This seems to be contraindicated by the sheer preponderance of spellcasting NPCs in Realmslore. It seems like every town has a pile of priests and wizards, and like every modest population hub can boast at least a few "famous" persons capable of casting the highest-level magics. So maybe almost anyone could learn magic, maybe magic saturates the world so heavily that indeed everyone does learn some "common" magics without even being aware of it (this might explain things like "superhuman" hit points and saving throws which allow heroes to survive encounters with dragons, etc).
Going by what we see in Realmslore, you can see three classes of spellcasters.
Class One-Anyone can be of this class. Half of the class are the people "born with magic in the blood". The person discovers they can wiggle a finger and do a magic effect...and then just go on with their life. They don't overly study magic, they just use it. The other half are the bare magic spellcasters. Anyone can study magic of any type and just use it. Again, this person does not study magic all that much. They just use it. Class one are the bulk of people you see in common Realmslore: people that just use magic. They most often on skill or ability to make anything new....but maybe make a limited 'twist' effect.
Class Two-This is anyone that puts in great time and effort to know about and understand magic, at least a little. Not everyone can do this. People are limited by their stats, plus their personality. A person of this class knows an "average" amount of magic lore.
Class Three-Are the elites, special people that know nearly everything about magic.
Examples:
Three: The Seven Sisters, Eliminster, Khelben, Sasz Tam, Gromph Baenre , or Daurgothoth.
Two: The average hero/villains from and story are here: like Shal Desanea or Zhengyi.
Three: Are more "background" people. The masses of spellcasters in sourcebooks, or in armies or other groups. |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 00:48:13
|
I wouldn't put Gromph in Class Three. His knowledge of Faerūn-wide wizardry would be so limited that he would be unable to identify and deal with way too many spells and magical effects that would be thrown against him. He's a Class Three in his own little microcosm - on the surface, he'd be toast.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 01:11:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I wouldn't put Gromph in Class Three. His knowledge of Faerūn-wide wizardry would be so limited that he would be unable to identify and deal with way too many spells and magical effects that would be thrown against him. He's a Class Three in his own little microcosm - on the surface, he'd be toast.
-- George Krashos
I don't know that he'd be toast on the surface... Sure, there would be a lot of magics he doesn't know -- but I figure he'd know at least some surface magic. And the stuff he does know, whether surface or Underdark, he knows well.
And a lot of surface mages wouldn't necessarily be prepped for some of the magics of the Underdark.
I agree that he'd be class two, in the above categorization, but I'd give him even odds against a mage of the same level -- because both are going to have stuff the other doesn't know. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 04:57:22
|
| Given the guy epic failed spectacularly when summoning the demon lords (Out of the Abyss storyline), I'm with George here. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 15:01:09
|
quote:
Arcane magic DOES permeate the setting (in the form of the Weave), but it is by no means "commonplace" or ordinary. I would say that perhaps one in every 290 or so people has some talent for the Art (magic), but usually this is a "wild talent," a very limited, lone minor power like an itching sensation when a powerful magic item is very close, or a mighty spell has just been cast in a locale, or is "hanging fire" awaiting activation in a spot the wild talent is standing in. Wild talents are rarely reliable, are usually kept secret, and VERY rarely can be developed, over time, into something a little stronger and more specific. Perhaps one person in every 400 or so has some limited immunity to some form of magic (lessened damage from fire or cold magic, or increased resistance to mind-contacting magic, for example); unless it's genetic and older family members tell them of it, they may never ever discover they have this immunity. Perhaps one person in every 900 or so has some ability to wield magic (i.e. become a wizard or sorcerer or other sort of arcane spellcaster). Again, they may never discover this - - and if they need training to develop it (i.e. become a wizard), they may never get the opportunity or the funds to be trained (nor might they WANT to; a lot of folk in the Realms fear magic). My estimate of how many people become wizards would be around thirty percent of those who could become wizards (i.e. 3 in 10 of those talented in the Art ever develop that talent). And of course, once you are a wizard, you are also a target.
I finally got round to locating the quote. It wasn't 1 in 400 as i remembered that become wizards, it was 1 in 900. |
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 15:37:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Given the guy epic failed spectacularly when summoning the demon lords (Out of the Abyss storyline), I'm with George here.
Not familiar with what happened there, but it could have been plot-driven, or just not his specialty.
Thing is, Gromph is one of the most powerful wizards in a city that has produced a fair number of powerful wizards, and where murdering those above you is encouraged as a means of advancement.
Gromph didn't get there by collecting cereal box tops, and he's not stayed in that position by looking pretty. He is obviously and canonically a skilled wizard, and likely has spent more time fending off rivals than any spellslinger outside of the Zhents or the Red Wizards.
Obviously, he's not going to compare favorably to some like Elminster, but his skill is proven, and he's not going to be a pushover for anyone at a comparable level. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
958 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 17:20:05
|
As far as population rates broken down by different classes are concerned, I would concur spellcasters have lower rates than non-spellcasters, all else being equal. What those by-class rates are is unknown. We need to cinch down regional and local populations by volume first before we can establish these rates.
Also, I would agree sorcerors are more uniformly distributed across Toril than wizards. Let's face it, sorcerors don't need books, pencils or labs to practice and train. |
|
|
|
bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 18:58:33
|
Well, to be fair, Elminster, the Seven Sisters and the like are "beyond any number" especially when written by Ed Greenwood. He just writes utterly beyond silly with his "EVERY bad guy is dumb and useless; but Elminster/Simbul/etc can blow up the world by wiggling a pinky toe." Like even if every god of the Realms attacked Elminster he would just sneeze and cast his 'bye god' spell and obliterate them...yuck, yuck, yuck.
You might say Goumph is a 'low type three', like equal to Maskar Wands or Malchor Harpell.
Also I'm not really talking about who would win in a street fight. Danilo Thann and Liriel Baenre both make class three for their use/discovery/understanding of magic...but neither of them is going to slay a dragon horde or blow up an island.
Everywhere in the Realms has microcosms. If you'd say Gromph "knows nothing" about surface magic, why would you say surface wizards are such experts of Underdark or Drow magic? Would you say Taern Hornblade is a super underdark/drow magic expert?
The one in 900 is just silly. An average small town has at least 2o, cities some couple hundred, plus the spellcastng groups. There HAS to be like 500 War Wizards of Cormyr (or like 3,000 total), Zhents, Red Wizards and such.
The idea that the Realms is a place where wizards are super rare just does not fit with any Realmslore.
|
|
|
|
Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 21:47:59
|
I have personally never felt Elminster was written that way. But to each their own.
An interesting idea came to mind, what if Ed's old answer and Ed's new answer differ because of the Spellplague? We know thousands of spellcasters died or went insane and many of those left couldn't wield magic. Sure that is a mass kill off and this would have a ripple effect of less wizards to teach future wizards. But over time that should not effect the number born with the "Gift". What if it goes beyond that, with Mystra MIA for 100 years what if thosee born with the "Gift" are very rare or almost non-existent. You have the elves who have their own ties to magic plus other long lived mages. Not to say that there weren't still bloodlines that past on the "Gift" or freak events. But maybe without the Weave or Mystra there wasn't anyone to seed the "Gift", sort of like a farmer tending soil and growing crops versus food just appearing in the wild, or a field left to its own devices?
I sort of like this idea. I'm not very familiar with that period of Realms history so maybe there is more lore hiding out there. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 14 Nov 2021 21:49:31 |
|
|
|
LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 22:12:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I wouldn't put Gromph in Class Three. His knowledge of Faerūn-wide wizardry would be so limited that he would be unable to identify and deal with way too many spells and magical effects that would be thrown against him. He's a Class Three in his own little microcosm - on the surface, he'd be toast.
-- George Krashos
I don't know that he'd be toast on the surface... Sure, there would be a lot of magics he doesn't know -- but I figure he'd know at least some surface magic. And the stuff he does know, whether surface or Underdark, he knows well.
And a lot of surface mages wouldn't necessarily be prepped for some of the magics of the Underdark.
I agree that he'd be class two, in the above categorization, but I'd give him even odds against a mage of the same level -- because both are going to have stuff the other doesn't know.
Unless I'm missing something, there isn't exactly a difference between arcane practices of the Underdark and the surface, barring specific traditions like Circle magic. Ironically, Gromph actually has higher Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft scores than Elminster.
On an unrelated note, I've always held metamagic to be more the province of wizards than sorcerers. Researching and adjusting magical formulae to produce a variety of different effects for a single spell seems to be more a wizard thing to do, which is why they got bonus feats in 3.5e. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Magic and Wizards in Forgotten Realms
