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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2021 : 14:22:36
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My wife has recently become enamoured of a show on Disney Plus called Life Below Zero. It's about people living in the rugged terrain of Alaska. I watch the show with her, and I've found that a lot of questions that come to her mind, I'm actually able to answer because of things I've learned from D&D of all things (most of which are about animals mind you). I'm learning some things though that I think would be interesting to see in the savage frontier (for instance, I'm surprised to never hear of single person "dog sleds" pulled by something other than dogs... or giants on "dog sleds" pulled by winter wolves, etc..).
The thing that recently caught my eye though was the fish wheel, and I realized that this isn't something that requires some modern technology in order to be implemented. It is simply nets, boards/wood, and axles working together with some form of flotation. These things catch an AMAZING amount of fish from what I can tell, but only while the fish are running to spawn points, etc... Are there similar things to this that would be "technologies" that would make good additions to the realms as "new discoveries" that are amazing to people there in the "modern day" that have been in use in the frontiers of our world since say a century after the introduction of the printing press?
One thing that comes to mind is that there was something of a "revolution" in the Chultan peninsula in Lundeth with water wheels being used to run a smithy that produces low grade swords (I personally think this would be better adapted to producing nails, screws, nuts, bolts, chisels, simple hand tools like hammers, screwdrivers, and stamped out thin metal like saws and angle iron for holding wood together). I actually like the idea of this kind of use of water wheels being introduced near Fort Flame in Anchorome to produce building materials.
When I research 16th century inventions, some others that seem possible are the first knitting machine, which wasn't anything like a sewing machine, but could be used to knit stockings. I think this might be adaptable for the making of cheap grade nets. Then there's the flush toilet (yep... somehow I'm back on human waste... what's with that this past couple months). Another that I find very possible... bottled beer... but I could see possibly other bottled things, or better pickling/preserving.
With so many easy ways to fly... what about parachutes for those who wouldn't have featherfall?
Are there any other things that don't stretch the bounds of believability or that wouldn't already be replaced by magic because of its ease of use
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 23 Sep 2021 14:49:24
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2021 : 15:31:14
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Mechanized sawmills were patented in 1593 so that is a possibility. The autohammer is really pretty simple so I could see dwarves using those for initial shaping (and having used those for centuries).
Edit: Clarified that it is mechanized/powered sawmills since manual sawmills had been around for a long time.
Another edit
What just occurred to me is that using real world dates may not necessarily apply to the same time period on Toril. Europe had a Dark Ages. The Realms did not (I would argue however that the 100 years after the Spellplague could be considered a "Dark Age" since there was so much environmental and social turmoil during that period). That could move stuff that happened IRL from the 1600s to the Realms of the 1300s. Then, the question is would magic have supplanted that technological advance? If the magic came from a temple, there is the possibility that it could become widespread. If the magic came from a wizard, there would have to be a significant financial benefit for him/her to allow that magic to be disseminated. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 23 Sep 2021 16:11:41 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2021 : 23:33:26
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Mechanized sawmills were patented in 1593 so that is a possibility. The autohammer is really pretty simple so I could see dwarves using those for initial shaping (and having used those for centuries).
Edit: Clarified that it is mechanized/powered sawmills since manual sawmills had been around for a long time.
Another edit
What just occurred to me is that using real world dates may not necessarily apply to the same time period on Toril. Europe had a Dark Ages. The Realms did not (I would argue however that the 100 years after the Spellplague could be considered a "Dark Age" since there was so much environmental and social turmoil during that period). That could move stuff that happened IRL from the 1600s to the Realms of the 1300s. Then, the question is would magic have supplanted that technological advance? If the magic came from a temple, there is the possibility that it could become widespread. If the magic came from a wizard, there would have to be a significant financial benefit for him/her to allow that magic to be disseminated.
Yep, I'd really like to see the idea of like you say a waterwheel driven sawmill, autohammer, and manufactory (my name for a place that might use waterwheel driven making of small/simple devices like nails, etc..), and have it coming BACK to Abeir with the continent of Anchorome, where the people who were sent there maybe made some non-magical advancements. Now that I think about it a Fishwheel over there would make a damn good idea as well. Textile mills as well, mainly for making sheets of cloth might be possible.
These would be advancements that I'd like to see around Fort Flame, but not necessarily the rest of the continent (maybe a select few other places). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
976 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2021 : 23:43:54
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| Lantan could very well have perfected these devices. I like to think Lantan worked on more than smokepowder and firearms. |
Edited by - Delnyn on 23 Sep 2021 23:44:31 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 00:24:24
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| The mechanical power of a waterwheel can provide all kinds of things: consistent bellows operations for higher temps for glass/stainless steel/nickel/cobalt, for drills and lathes for shaping different materials, towlines (like the ones needed at the rapids just east of Berdusk), mills, pumps (maybe even for flood control), etc. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 01:43:55
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*sigh* Fair warning: once you start down this rabbit hole you will see no end of things that need to be changed by or can no longer make sense without rewriting entire chunks of the FR lore in ways that most players will never see.
Still here? Start with Trip Hammer, segue over to Medieval Technology, and then branch out into the larger category of History of Technology to get a glimmer of an idea of what it takes to build civilizations and realize that the FR does not have near enough lore or writers to really dig into the ramifications of all the RW technologies that are contemporary likelihoods for already being in the FR. Of special note should be the Byzantines and the Islamic World during the same period since those cultures did not suffer the loss of knowledge that accompanied the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
Here is an example of what I am warning about. The one thing that got to me on my research for fantasy world technologies years ago was that platinum in the RW was undiscovered until the 16th century, was even then considered a useless impurity found in gold, could not even be isolated due to having a melting point higher than could be achieved by RW technologies until advanced furnaces were invented in the latter 18th century, and required a multi-step process of additive/deductive chemical synthesis to make it usable until electrorefining was invented in the 19th century. Platinum was never a thing in the Medieval world. Since platinum is a canon metal and has always been mined/used in the FR the only thing to make sense of it is that the know-how to identify and use this metal came from the dwarves and/or elves using racial magic to obtain platinum. That makes platinum supplies controlled by those two races, and with the retreat of the elves, at least one of those sources is severely curtailed resulting in unfulfilled demand and elevated values for platinum goods. The 10gp is equal to 1 platinum coin is thrown out the window and such a metal would not be found outside the hands of the elite nor would it be useful to merchants lacking access to those high-end markets especially in human civilizations lacking the crucial metallurgical technologies. See? Way too much thought about something the game designers never wanted us to think about at all. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2482 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 02:15:06
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That's why 4e's "1pp = 100 gp" made more sense to me.
I guess some stuff can be handwaved with magic, but not all. And if you begin to apply to many RL tech into D&D, even if you limit yourself to just medieval-ish stuff, you'll be unhappy sooner rather than latter. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 03:15:10
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Gnomes can already build functional submarines (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Scarlet_Marpenoth). Railroads and jet packs are just around the corner. The 17th century Realms is going to be a world of wonders!
I'd have a real issue with that even if it wasn't an excuse for Easter eggs and pop culture references. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2482 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 03:37:16
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Gnomes can already build functional submarines (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Scarlet_Marpenoth). Railroads and jet packs are just around the corner. The 17th century Realms is going to be a world of wonders!
I really doubt that. If the Second Sundering has taught us something, is that the Realms has a penchant to reverse to and maintain a technological status quo. You can even say that there are forces that want the Realms to be technologically stagnated in a faux-medieval/Renaissance level.
That sub was an outlier, and one that makes no sense with the current technological level of the Realms. My own theory is that the gnomes stole that from a Cannith port in Eberron. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Sep 2021 03:39:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 04:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Gnomes can already build functional submarines (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Scarlet_Marpenoth). Railroads and jet packs are just around the corner. The 17th century Realms is going to be a world of wonders!
I really doubt that. If the Second Sundering has taught us something, is that the Realms has a penchant to reverse to and maintain a technological status quo. You can even say that there are forces that want the Realms to be technologically stagnated in a faux-medieval/Renaissance level.
That sub was an outlier, and one that makes no sense with the current technological level of the Realms. My own theory is that the gnomes stole that from a Cannith port in Eberron.
I like that idea.
Though a simpler spin would be that someone from Eberron came to the Realms and built it locally. It's a much easier explanation than stealing a sub and getting it to another world.
I'm not saying the latter isn't possible; it's just that knowledgeable travelers are more easily explained and more plausible. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 05:38:52
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A HUGE problem with the Realms, after Magic, is the 30,000+ years of history of intelligent humanoids. And things just don't add up. For example: in -34000 we get "Writing is invented as an aid to administration in communities that had grown so complex that sarrukh memory could no longer store all the information needed for efficient government. " So that makes writing some 30,000 years old in the Realms, compared to maybe 6,000 years here on Earth.
On Earth we have roughly 2000 years of semi documented technological development. The Realms has at least 10,000 years. The elves of the Crown Wars had swords, armor and such. If humans had fought a "crown war" on Earth, it would have been with clubs and hide cloths.
Even just 4,000 years ago human Netheril has AT LEAST the Middle Ages or medieval period of Earth level of technology. The barbarian Sunbright Steelshanks some 2000 years ago in Netheril is described as " When traveling, Sunbright dressed in a worn linen shirt, leather and iron studded boots, and a brown goatskin jerkin. Over his shoulders, he wore a longbow, a bedroll, and his sword " A 'barbarian' from like 700 BC Earth would have NOTHING even close to any of that equipment.
And magic is not the whole answer. You can use the spell fabricate to make a steel sword....but first you need to know what steel and a sword both are: that is they need to be invented naturally. You can't cast fabricate to "make a sharp sword" and have the spell invent steel. And if the spell could spontaneously invent steel, why would to stop at steel? Why not make an adamintum sword with a single atom wide blade or even a light saber? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 13:09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
Lantan could very well have perfected these devices. I like to think Lantan worked on more than smokepowder and firearms.
While I like Lantan for having tech improvements, I don't want every technological improvement to have come from there. That being said, my take on these water wheel concepts going to Anchorome is that portions of the Chultan peninsula went to Abeir, especially the city of Lundeth. Lundeth in canon has Gondsmen from Lantan who had relocated to Lundeth in order to setup the weapon making factory there using the waterwheels that they built. The people of Lundeth will evacuate their home because of incursions by the Abeirans, heading to Anchorome/Fort Flame via a portal that will exist between the two (my idea is that there was a Thayan trade enclave on both sides, and prior to the spellplague the "weapon mills" had already been getting converted to making building supplies).
So, indirectly the kneowledge will have come from Lantan to Lundeth, and then from Lundeth to Anchorome.
I have a lot of this history built out in a product up on DM's Guild btw. I won't say its great, because I'm not real happy with it, but I do like the history I was building. I need to work on the city development, but I have so much I want to do that I just felt "hey, start getting some of it on paper and out there, and ou can refine it later". I've been playing with the idea of focusing next on the city of Luneira in orbit, but time is always the factor.... still, its fun to write.
If you'd be interested in this stuff btw, its Pay what you want, so I could care less how much you give.... its more to share the idea.
United Tharchs of Toril - Secret Cities & Strange Skyships of Anchorome
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jkEn5kc7-fK9VFPtTcBM0eKL0kH2XKlp/view?usp=sharing |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Sep 2021 13:14:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 13:28:43
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
*sigh* Fair warning: once you start down this rabbit hole you will see no end of things that need to be changed by or can no longer make sense without rewriting entire chunks of the FR lore in ways that most players will never see.
Still here? Start with Trip Hammer, segue over to Medieval Technology, and then branch out into the larger category of History of Technology to get a glimmer of an idea of what it takes to build civilizations and realize that the FR does not have near enough lore or writers to really dig into the ramifications of all the RW technologies that are contemporary likelihoods for already being in the FR. Of special note should be the Byzantines and the Islamic World during the same period since those cultures did not suffer the loss of knowledge that accompanied the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
Here is an example of what I am warning about. The one thing that got to me on my research for fantasy world technologies years ago was that platinum in the RW was undiscovered until the 16th century, was even then considered a useless impurity found in gold, could not even be isolated due to having a melting point higher than could be achieved by RW technologies until advanced furnaces were invented in the latter 18th century, and required a multi-step process of additive/deductive chemical synthesis to make it usable until electrorefining was invented in the 19th century. Platinum was never a thing in the Medieval world. Since platinum is a canon metal and has always been mined/used in the FR the only thing to make sense of it is that the know-how to identify and use this metal came from the dwarves and/or elves using racial magic to obtain platinum. That makes platinum supplies controlled by those two races, and with the retreat of the elves, at least one of those sources is severely curtailed resulting in unfulfilled demand and elevated values for platinum goods. The 10gp is equal to 1 platinum coin is thrown out the window and such a metal would not be found outside the hands of the elite nor would it be useful to merchants lacking access to those high-end markets especially in human civilizations lacking the crucial metallurgical technologies. See? Way too much thought about something the game designers never wanted us to think about at all.
Fairly said. That being said, some things that were problems for our world (such as achieving high temperatures to melt things) may have been easily accomplished with magics (such as summoning a small elemental, using a fire based cantrip repeatedly, etc....). This is why I'm wanting to look at additions to the realms that are something that we might look at and go "yeah, I can definitely see that happening". I also want to keep in mind the idea that tech innovation on Toril moves slowly, BUT that such things while in Abeir may have advanced more rapidly due to a lack of ready magic for a while (I personally have my own idea of the weave spreading into Abeir over the last century in the decades following the spellplague and in the lands that transferred).
Some of the other things I'm noting is that if you look at the Aurora's catalog, you rarely see a mention of rubber. Therefore, one thing I'd like to see with the return of Anchorome is them using this "amazing" new substance (to note, in our own real world, when rubber was discovered, there were "rubber barons" getting rich over this material that we all think nothing of any longer with plastics taking its place in a lot of ways). The use of rubber lined wagon wheels, rubber hoses aiding plumbing and manufacturing, etc... I don't see this necessarily breaking the realms.
I'd also like to see the people in Abeir embracing the art of the artificer, but not like its presented in recent books. For instance, we have pluma magic in maztica, and so I picture the making of "plumacloth" using bird feathers. I picture making "hishnahide" from worked leather in a way that's different from the leather working of Faerun. So, rather than the artificer whose focus is on smithwork and metals and gunpowder/explosives, the idea would be to focus on the "softer" side of crafting (tailoring, leatherworking, woodcarving, brewing, alchemy etc....).
Also, with a lot of Anchorome being desert, I also want to have a focus on glassmaking (one of the things Seethyr and I had been discussing is that a lot of the Aeree cultures may have known of making glassteel). I don't picture the humans churning out glassteel mind you... but jars for preserving food, beakers for alchemy work, etc... I'm not quite sure how having lots of available and cheap glass will change things, and I'd like to explore that in particular, as there's one city that I have out in the desert that I'm wanting to focus on this work. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Sep 2021 13:41:40 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 13:31:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Gnomes can already build functional submarines (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Scarlet_Marpenoth). Railroads and jet packs are just around the corner. The 17th century Realms is going to be a world of wonders!
I really doubt that. If the Second Sundering has taught us something, is that the Realms has a penchant to reverse to and maintain a technological status quo. You can even say that there are forces that want the Realms to be technologically stagnated in a faux-medieval/Renaissance level.
That sub was an outlier, and one that makes no sense with the current technological level of the Realms. My own theory is that the gnomes stole that from a Cannith port in Eberron.
Yeah, I do like this idea better. Eberron is the place that's more like our world for "tech"... I'd just like to see a little addition of things. However, the oddball thing like this in pockets of the realms isn't a bad addition. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cyrano
Acolyte
United Kingdom
25 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 13:33:57
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| I like to think that there are differences in the physical conditions of the realms that make certain technologies much easier to work (like the isolation of platinum), while others are almost impossible, keeping it in a magical stasis. We know it's the writers, who want a Lord of the Rings-esque medieval fantasy product to sell regardless of how much sense it makes, but maybe in world of it's Ao, tinkering with the physical constants to stop anyone inventing railways for reasons of his own. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 14:19:47
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A big thing is the fact that the overall history of the Realms is different.
Maybe X wasn't developed as quickly in the Realms as in the real world because this one particular ingredient wasn't as handy, or because events kept potential inventors from doing so. Hard to focus on certain things when you routinely have dragons trying to eat you, for example.
Maybe Y was developed more quickly because a deity nudged someone in the right direction or because another race did something to make it easier.
Maybe Z was developed differently because the relevant processes developed differently.
The Realms certainly resembles Western Europe from a few hundred years ago, tech-wise, but there's stuff going on in the Realms that was never a factor in Europe.
Overall, it's an apple and oranges thing. Even in the real world, some cultures developed certain things long before other cultures developed the exact same thing. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 15:04:39
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That deity point is a good one. As an example, there are lightning rods in the Realms. But why? That kinda treads on Talos' area since the rod is used to protect a building from lightning. Certainly, Talos would have gone after the inventor.
But, what if it was Gond that "divinely inspired" their creation as a way to get back at Talos for something? Talos may be mad that they were created but he knows that he won't be able to stop them from being adopted by communities all over the Realms because Gond is the one making sure they get used as much as possible. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 24 Sep 2021 15:05:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 15:38:40
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
That deity point is a good one. As an example, there are lightning rods in the Realms. But why? That kinda treads on Talos' area since the rod is used to protect a building from lightning. Certainly, Talos would have gone after the inventor.
But, what if it was Gond that "divinely inspired" their creation as a way to get back at Talos for something? Talos may be mad that they were created but he knows that he won't be able to stop them from being adopted by communities all over the Realms because Gond is the one making sure they get used as much as possible.
It doesn't even have to be that overt.
Look at how Goodyear had his breakthrough with vulcanized rubber -- he accidently fried some rubber. Look at the discovery of penicillin -- dude didn't keep stuff as clean as he should, and wound up with a moldy Petri dish.
Now, flip that to a fantasy setting with multiple deities.
Someone could be walking along, not paying attention to their surroundings, and then a deity puts just enough sparkle on a particular rock to get the person's attention. Person stops, looks at this rock, realizes it's something different, takes it home, starts trying stuff with it, and boom, discovers some new material or something.
Or a deity could do some other sort of nudge -- like causing the accidents noted above. Something like suddenly hearing a bell or an animal could distract a person and cause them to drop something or forget the thing they meant to do in a moment...
Another option would be a vision or dream. A smith, for example, has a dream where he adds some unknown substance to the steel as he's making a sword, and it comes out way stronger. That dream could inspire the smith to try to figure out what the unknown material was, until he discovers it.
It's all indirect, but it still leads to the same result. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 16:21:16
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I was basing what I said a bit off of the 2e Faiths & Avatars book and its entry for Gond. The only foe listed is Talos so that seemed like it was a bit more directed than just a coincidence.
As for the deity angle, maybe Oghma has decided things are only going to progress so far or so fast. Imagine if Earth had an active god of knowledge. Do you think he/she/it would have allowed the invention of nuclear weapons (among other things)? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 16:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I was basing what I said a bit off of the 2e Faiths & Avatars book and its entry for Gond. The only foe listed is Talos so that seemed like it was a bit more directed than just a coincidence.
As for the deity angle, maybe Oghma has decided things are only going to progress so far or so fast. Imagine if Earth had an active god of knowledge. Do you think he/she/it would have allowed the invention of nuclear weapons (among other things)?
That's a discussion best avoided here, I think.
There's a book series where the last surviving humans are living a pre-Industrial Revolution existence on a distant planet. They have access to much higher technology, but there were reasons this technology was forgotten about. The world has developed much like feudal Europe, including an all-powerful Church -- and though no one in the Church knows why, the Church is very active in making sure the world stays pre-industrial.
Which leads me to connect with the rest of your post -- wouldn't it be an interesting idea if, in some distant future, entities who remember our past are very interested in guiding their less technological society so certain things don't happen again?
It wouldn't work with the Realms, since its timeline was more-or-less linked to ours at one point, but it's an interesting idea naetheless, I think. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2021 : 19:37:01
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Just to add, the part about soooo many of our discoveries being accidents, and the idea of the gods possibly driving them is a good one, yep that's a part I definitely would recommend following with. I would say that makes a good reason for staying into what I was saying "things that it seems might make sense for the realms to develop" and basing it on things we know they have. They obviously know how to make glass. They know how to make wheel driven mills and cog driven things. They have access to people that know plumaweaving and hishnashaping and other crafting arts that they might adapt in the "True World", so having them take that art and "advancing" it in some form that may utilize the base materials without necessarily worrying about "magicking" them up (i.e. making cloth from feathers, which even is done in our world with ostrich feathers, but in a world with griffons, hippogriffs, giant owls, giant eagles, etc... there are a lot more options).
Thinking on that a bit, a device "like" a cotton gin which pulled fabric from cotton seeds, but pulled feather barbs from feather shafts/quills, might be a good new discovery. It would then allow for the spinning of feather barbs into cloth.
Similarly, with creatures like giant elks and giant moose around that shed their antlers yearly, those materials can be crafted into things.
Similarly, with creatures like giant spiders as relatively common, using their silk to make cloth is something I know we've heard rumors of, but having a group actively "farming" them could prove interesting... especially given that they're meat eaters who might be used as a disposal system for some parts of creatures that are generally considered inedible b most folks since they vomit digestive juices on remains and then slurp up the "melted" stuff. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2021 : 14:07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
... Similarly, with creatures like giant spiders as relatively common, using their silk to make cloth is something I know we've heard rumors of, but having a group actively "farming" them could prove interesting... especially given that they're meat eaters who might be used as a disposal system for some parts of creatures that are generally considered inedible b most folks since they vomit digestive juices on remains and then slurp up the "melted" stuff.
Sleyvas, I was going to point you to the "Art Material Index" scroll I created that had these things but then I realized that you already have a copy of that mixed compilation of canon/fanon/original material. What exactly are you looking for in responses because where I thought you were going (technology & cultural impact) is not where we currently are (artifacts and goods). |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2021 : 15:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to add, the part about soooo many of our discoveries being accidents, and the idea of the gods possibly driving them is a good one, yep that's a part I definitely would recommend following with.
Another thing that occurred to me, for deities nudging things along: one person is trying to invent something, and gets stuck at one point. Another person is trying to invent something, and gets stuck at a different point. A divine nudge in the right place could bring these two together. Each person solves the other's problem, and boom, new invention.
And by the same token, such simple nudges could prevent something from being invented, too. Distract someone at a crucial moment, cause an accident that destroys research or that leads it astray, obscure something so the person doesn't have that chance discovery, keep the two inventors from meeting, etc. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2021 : 16:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
... Similarly, with creatures like giant spiders as relatively common, using their silk to make cloth is something I know we've heard rumors of, but having a group actively "farming" them could prove interesting... especially given that they're meat eaters who might be used as a disposal system for some parts of creatures that are generally considered inedible b most folks since they vomit digestive juices on remains and then slurp up the "melted" stuff.
Sleyvas, I was going to point you to the "Art Material Index" scroll I created that had these things but then I realized that you already have a copy of that mixed compilation of canon/fanon/original material. What exactly are you looking for in responses because where I thought you were going (technology & cultural impact) is not where we currently are (artifacts and goods).
Honestly, I start a lot of threads with no "intentions" of where I want to see a thread go. Sometimes its a random idea in my head and I just want to see how it sparks in other people. In fact, in talking about reusing the feathers of giant birds and antlers of giant elk and silk of giant spiders.... that brings me down another path.
What COMMONISH creatures do you see in the realms that are giant instead of "tiny/small" or "medium", and as a result, harvesting them for parts (even if its cast off parts due to things like gathering feathers from molting giant birds).
It occurs to me that we have a lot of giant snakes, and snake skin is something people use for making a type of leather... and their venoms might be used as poisons or turned to even other uses (not sure what venom might be used for other than poison and antidotes or anesthesia, but I'm sure there is one).
Are there any uses for giant rats besides food and leather? For instance, if someone set one up with a "hamster wheel" and setup some system that the more they ran on it the lower some food came ::sideglances at Wooly thoughtfully::
What about the various giant insects (ants, bettles, etc..)? Do they DO anything that if done on a larger scale would be really useful for farming, etc....
I know in other threads I've already talked about an idea of using giant beavers to harvest lumber in Anchorome.
Any ideas spawning in anyone's heads as we go through this? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2021 : 18:19:26
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Giant space hamsters exist to power gnomish sidewheelers. It's never been quite explained how this works, but hamster wheels are obviously involved. They also exist to give gnomes spaham to eat. Yes, that's Spelljammer canon.
Venoms can be diluted/processed to serve other medical needs. It's not unreasonable to assume there could be other uses; maybe a particular mixture, based on a particular venom, could serve as a dye or ink?
I'd imagine giant bees would produce a LOT of honey, though they'd take up a lot of real estate and need even more to keep them feed.
Some cultures eat various insects, so giant ones would make many meals.
And assuming you could figure out a way to contain them, giant insects could be used for waste disposal. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2021 : 23:34:27
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Ah, spitballing ideas. I got it.
Giant beasts, on the flip side of that coin, come with giant problems. The larger the animal, the greater the consumption of food required for it to be healthy and the roomier the space it needs to thrive. The potential for larger critters to do real harm when upset also factors into the "Expense" column when figuring reasonable compensation for goods harvested. In the RW domesticated creatures strong enough to knock down & trample or dangerous enough to attack people have been controlled by selective breeding for docility and fencing/caging/box-ing. The diminished capacity to wrangle larger beasties and the sturdier constructions necessary to contain them will also deter sophont beings from cultivating them versus other more commonly domesticated animals. Also, just because an animal is larger does not automatically mean that the goods that it brings are better.
Where are giant bees going to find enough nectar to feed themselves and have enough left over for honey production?
I thought I had more to say but too tired & distracted. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2021 : 00:43:44
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It is kind of odd that we are hitting around a lot of the things that been discussing for Anchorome. For "giant bees" making honey, we had been discussing the idea that there should several areas of the continent that Faerunians have named as Anchorome that have giant flowers resembling honeysuckle and similar flowers. I wanted to include giant hummingbirds there (they would be size small) in some of these areas that would also include "wild" elements of nature (treants, dryads, shatjan, size medium tauric deers (not hybsil, but similar... more human torso and bigger).... and others would have Abeil with giant honey bees moving in to bring "order" to nature. Neither group is "bad" per se, but they are in conflict.
Oh, and Wooly.... do you harbor any hatred of gnomes for their treatment of you on their ship? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2021 : 03:23:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and Wooly.... do you harbor any hatred of gnomes for their treatment of you on their ship?
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen. No gnome would be brave enough to let me near their ship!
Giant flowers are kind of a workaround for giant bees, but it's not an elegant one -- giant flowers are going to need more space and resources, themselves. I'd tweak it up a bit -- make the giant flowers something like a cross between a tree and a bouquet of flowers. Tree-like stem, including bark, and instead of leaves at the top, a cluster of flowers. Or maybe it's like a tall tree, with the trunk lined with these big flowers. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11858 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2021 : 04:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Oh, and Wooly.... do you harbor any hatred of gnomes for their treatment of you on their ship?
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen. No gnome would be brave enough to let me near their ship!
Giant flowers are kind of a workaround for giant bees, but it's not an elegant one -- giant flowers are going to need more space and resources, themselves. I'd tweak it up a bit -- make the giant flowers something like a cross between a tree and a bouquet of flowers. Tree-like stem, including bark, and instead of leaves at the top, a cluster of flowers. Or maybe it's like a tall tree, with the trunk lined with these big flowers.
I should specify too, because I know my wording kind of evokes different imagery.... like when I say "giant hummingbird" and then I have to specify that they're still size small... I picture these giant honeysuckles to be about the size of say an ear of corn...roughly, maybe a little bigger for some being the size of four ears of corn... not like the "bigger than a house" flowers portrayed in some zones of Everquest 2. Also, the giant bees that I picture serving abeil would still be size small creatures (the size of say a somewhat big dog or maybe a bobcat). I would say "large" but that's an actual size, so.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2021 : 12:55:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I should specify too, because I know my wording kind of evokes different imagery....
Yeah, that kind of clarification is important when a possible encountered monster is literally named "Giant Bee" and they are an established part of the setting complete with where one is likely to find such and what useful things are harvested from their nests. This is exactly to where my mind jumped.
Are you sure you want these bees to be the size of a... "big dog," did you say? Big dogs are the size of medium sized creatures. Even shrinking the proposed bees down to a small-size creature (i.e., gnome sized) these suckers would still have individual combat stats and attacks that would go through armor so forget beekeeper suits being effective. The "tiny" to "diminutive" range would give you some alarming large bees (6 inches to 2 feet in size and 2 ounces to 8 pounds in weight). We saw something like this in the 2nd "The Hobbit" movie, Beorn's Bees, that fit the bill of extraordinarily large but not dangerously so. If something in this size range attacks a person it would be scary & hurt like hell until the person drives it off or kills it but it would in no way deliver life threatening injuries on its own. A swarm of them, on the other hand, would be just as serious as their smaller brethren doing the same. And these would be larger than the largest RW bees known to exist including murder hornets and tarantula hawks! |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Fish Wheels and similar technologies in the realms
