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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 06:19:34
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Okay, so, two things that should be established about me: I am not a rules-person, and I am totally fine with importing things I like from other settings/systems, into the Realms, as a one-off thing.
One of the ideas I've tinkered with was dropping a Warhammer 40k Space Marine into the Realms. He'd be nerfed by having his armor and weapons no longer work, and I've got to do some spinning on the backstory to make him not react violently to any non-humans, but that's another story.
This eve, I stumbled across a 5E Space Marine conversion. It's by Mike Myler, one of the ENWorld contributors who (among other things) stats up real-world legendary and mythological critters or people for D&D.
I'm sharing this conversion just to get people's opinions -- I want to know if people more familiar with the rules feel this is a good conversion. Obviously, it's over-powered compared to a regular human, even unaugmented by power armor, as in this write-up.
This is part of a larger post from Mike Myler's site.
quote:
SPACE MARINE
These biologically augmented warriors are the apotheosis of humanity, perfect soldiers encased in suits of power armor that make them the bane of xenos across the universe. You gain the following benefits (and are otherwise human, though you gain no benefits from that distinction):
Your size is Large. GMs that prefer them to be Medium (most space marines are ~7 feet tall) can give them the following feature instead:
Bigger. You are treated as one size Larger for grapples and when determining carrying capacity.
Your speed is 40 feet.
Your Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores increase by 2, and their maximums increase by 2. Your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores increase by 1.
You have resistance to poison damage.
You have advantage on saving throws against diseases and poison.
You gain proficiency in Athletics and Perception.
You have advantage on sight- and sound-based Wisdom (Perception) checks (increasing your passive Perception by 5) and on checks made to identify a chemical substance.
Whenever you take damage, you ignore 1 point of damage.
You regenerate 1 hit point every minute. When reduced to 0 hit points you automatically stabilize unless you have suffered a mortal wound (such as instant death from decapitation, evisceration, or massive damage). While at 0 hit points you remain conscious but are incapacitated.
Instantly killing you requires twice as much damage as normal. At the GM’s discretion, you may not even truly die in such an instance (sustained instead by the sus-an membrane putting your body into a state of suspended animation for as long as hundreds of years)
You do not need to eat food or drink water. You require only 4 hours of sleep to gain the benefits of a long rest and while sleeping you remain conscious. You can go 2 weeks without sleep.
You still need to breathe air, but you are able to sustain yourself on far less of it (as little as 5% oxygen content) and can hold your breath for 10 times as long as normal.
You are able to absorb genetic material by consuming blood or flesh, the omophagea inside your body transmitting the gained information to your brain as a set of memories or experiences. What this can reveal is at the discretion of the GM.
Your unarmed strikes deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage.
You produce a blinding spittle able to temporarily deprive foes of their vision. As a bonus action, you spit your corrosive saliva at a creature within 15 feet. It makes a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier) or is blind until the end of your next turn.
You gain proficiency with simple, martial, and extremis weapons as well as all armor and shields.
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 10:08:57
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The 40k to 5E conversion idea is interesting. I’ve only toyed with some fluff ideas, where the D&D multiverse is actually a region in the Eye of Terror, together with whatever planet the WFRP Old World is set on. I have not played WH40k for decades, so I am familiar mostly with the lore descriptions fof the Space Marines, not their mechanics in current version of WH40K or Wrath and Glory. In terms of ability scores, from what I remember, take a human, increase scores by 1/3. The proposed physical scores increases seem to reflect that. I understand that for game balance, there needs to be a compensation on the others, but some of it does not really fit the lore, I think. Marines have to have good brains (tactical analysis, knowledge of opponents, etc,). I would keep Int at regular, reduce WIS and Cha more, to reflect that a marine is (a) definitely not a people person, and (b) lacks familiarity with the D&D multiverse. Int reflects more abstract reasoning, I think, so could be kept at the same.
One thing that’s not there is longevity. Marines can live for hundreds of years. Not sure if in 5E aging attacks are still a thing (I’m still on 2E rules), but if it is, there should be resistance there.
(Brain flash: the closest D&D equivalent that springs to my mind are Dark Sun’s mul, Close brain flash.)
I think the range of abilities covers the WH40k canon abilities. They are probably less efficient in the conversion than in WH40K, but I would say that different laws of physics in the Realms account for that.
As to enmity to non-humans, there’s degrees, usually depending on which Chapter a marine is part of. Some chapters’ doctrine is to kill on sight anything that is not pure human (and most humans, too.) Others are more tolerants (there’s worse things that require our attention and dedication to extermination, you’ll just have to wait your turn), some others are pragmatic (daemons are our enemy, daemons are your enemy, too, I think we can work together for mutual advantage). There may even be some who are closet Xenos admirers (we should be as fleet-footed as the eldar).
I’d think more about the marine’s reaction to magic. Anything that is classic D&D magic (grand gestures, arcane formulae, big splashy effects) will be viewed with extreme hostility across the board. More subtle effects can be rationalised as psychic powers. Most chapters have psykers in the form of chaplains, some reject even psychic abilities. I’d try to reflect that in restrictions on what magic or magic items a marine would accept to use or tolerate. Wand of fireballs, definitely not. Magic sword, sure.
Gonna have brekkie now, may have more thoughts later. |
Edited by - Thauramarth on 05 Sep 2021 23:42:36 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 11:17:00
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Amusing, but what's even the point?
I mean, not only no one will really use it, but it's already done for d100 WH40k RP.
Which with all its warts has obviously much better mechanics than Diablo Edition, never mind post-WoW edition.
It's close to streamlined Players Options. As in: take PO, get rid of redundant Character Points and Severity by using XP pool and Damage with some conditions, fix "10.5 centered" nonsense. Huh, it's very close to FFG d100.
A better question is whether it's a good idea to convert the few notice-worthy things made for d20 into d100. But that's not too hard. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 11:42:20
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Warhammer characters in fantasy D&D seem more plausible than Warhammer 40K characters in fantasy D&D.
I would personally choose a sci-fi-themed RPG like Rifts if 40K space marines might be involved.
Not because the space marine could "break" game balance. (His stats aren't "balanced" to my personal tastes, but whatever, just go with it.)
Because the space marine could "break" game lore and setting. Where did he come from? Is there some sort of planar gate between the Realms and a grimdark 40K warzone? Is it a one-way or two-way thing? Will more marines and psykers and inquisitors and xeno scum and warp demons be following him? Will their stats be similarly overpowering?
So space marines in D&D aren't for me. But more power to others who want to crisscross cherry-picked items between entertainments. I always try to encourage creativity, try to discourage telling others how they're (not) supposed to have fun. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Sep 2021 11:47:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 16:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Warhammer characters in fantasy D&D seem more plausible than Warhammer 40K characters in fantasy D&D.
I would personally choose a sci-fi-themed RPG like Rifts if 40K space marines might be involved.
Not because the space marine could "break" game balance. (His stats aren't "balanced" to my personal tastes, but whatever, just go with it.)
Because the space marine could "break" game lore and setting. Where did he come from? Is there some sort of planar gate between the Realms and a grimdark 40K warzone? Is it a one-way or two-way thing? Will more marines and psykers and inquisitors and xeno scum and warp demons be following him? Will their stats be similarly overpowering?
So space marines in D&D aren't for me. But more power to others who want to crisscross cherry-picked items between entertainments. I always try to encourage creativity, try to discourage telling others how they're (not) supposed to have fun.
I just want one as an NPC. He'd be entirely a one-off. Basic idea is he's the last survivor of his squad, a warp storm deposits him in the D&Dverse, and after a considerable amount of time (to help get him acclimated to all the non-40k stuff) he winds up in the Realms.
He'd not talk about his past, so while people would know "he's not from around here" they'd not realize just how far away he was from his home. There would be quiet speculations on having giant blood, given his size. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 17:40:07
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Given the way the Adeptus Astartes are depicted, I would assume he would have to be a very high level or noticeably stronger in everything he does. Even casually a Space Marine, unarmoured, can literally punch the head off even augmented humans, put their hand through a chest and rip out a spine, and do various other very brutal things (at speeds so high that people seeing them move at full combat speed describe it as less like being quick and more like being a blur of motion because nothing human should be able to move that fast), which that stat block isn’t really showing beyond slightly stronger than a normal human. Their level of tactical knowledge should be innately high from memory-imprinting, combined with their psychological conditioning making them resistant to mental attack. Since psyker entities attacking a Space Marine in one book remarked that the mind was a closed rock, hard and gemlike and annoying to try and attack (as they say, an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded. Innocence proves nothing.).
Generally I think it would be very difficult for a Space Marine to properly adapt. The way they are made, indoctrinated, and brainwashed is unlikely to produce particularly cooperative individuals. But that’s down to DMing, rather than mechanics. To be honest, Space Marines only barely qualify as human with the extent of the modifications they receive. They look almost like hideous abhumans. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 17:51:04
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A buddy of mine who is getting me into WH40K minis (I'm making my first Kill Team of Dark Angels) showed me this in an attempt to do a WH40K RPG using 5e. Now, I have and shown him Wrath and Glory 1e but he insists 5e is easier to roll with, but I digress.
The mechanics seem solid for establishing a pretty good conversion of a Space Marine to 5e. I mean, these guys are supposed to be basically broken in order to fight the Hordes of Chaos, the Eldar, the Orks, the Necrons, and even the Tau.
He'd probably be confused with a Goliath or half-Ogre due to just how flicking BIG he is. And depending on his old Chapter, it would probably determine what class levels (if any) he would have. Though, he would certainly question any divine benefits gifted to him by a Realms deity like Torm or Tempus.
If the SM can get over not murderhoboing 'filthy Xenos' on sight and accept that the Emperor is not in touch, he might be willing to accept the concepts of D&D magic more easily, especially with how Rampant it is amongst even humans.
I'd sure be interested to hear how it goes. I could imagine how a Black Templar wanders into Waterdeep and sees a cleric of Tyr providing healing magic to some poor beggar on the street or to a Tiefling in fine close strolling down the High Road downtown. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 19:16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
A buddy of mine who is getting me into WH40K minis (I'm making my first Kill Team of Dark Angels) showed me this in an attempt to do a WH40K RPG using 5e. Now, I have and shown him Wrath and Glory 1e but he insists 5e is easier to roll with, but I digress.
The mechanics seem solid for establishing a pretty good conversion of a Space Marine to 5e. I mean, these guys are supposed to be basically broken in order to fight the Hordes of Chaos, the Eldar, the Orks, the Necrons, and even the Tau.
He'd probably be confused with a Goliath or half-Ogre due to just how flicking BIG he is. And depending on his old Chapter, it would probably determine what class levels (if any) he would have. Though, he would certainly question any divine benefits gifted to him by a Realms deity like Torm or Tempus.
I'm honestly inclined to think the physical stats would be a bit higher than in this write-up, but it was everything else I was looking at. (and I get why the author didn't go that way -- Space Marines are already at a huge advantage, as it is)
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
If the SM can get over not murderhoboing 'filthy Xenos' on sight and accept that the Emperor is not in touch, he might be willing to accept the concepts of D&D magic more easily, especially with how Rampant it is amongst even humans.
I'd sure be interested to hear how it goes. I could imagine how a Black Templar wanders into Waterdeep and sees a cleric of Tyr providing healing magic to some poor beggar on the street or to a Tiefling in fine close strolling down the High Road downtown.
Part of the backstory is a prolonged time lost in the Warp, with the effect of weakening the hold the hypnotraining/indoctrination had on him. And then, of course, spending a fair amount of time with an adventuring party.
As for the Emperor angle... I'm thinking one of the first people the camel meets is a priest of Torm. They have long discussions about the Emperor, and the priest -- who is very persuasive -- draws parallels between the Emperor and Torm. It's the duty thing -- the primary duty of Space Marines is to serve the Emperor and protect his people, and the Emperor himself has a duty to guide and protect his people. He is so dedicated to his duty that he's been ensconced in the Golden Throne so that he can forever protect his people. Obviously (says the priest), there's a connection betwixt Torm and the Emperor!
Hence, Space Marine becomes priest or paladin of Torm.
Though it's all a bit moot. He'd be an NPC, and if the PCs met him, they'd hear the same things anyone else knew -- really big dude, possibly giant-blooded, from some far away place.
I just like having all the details worked out in my own mind. It's like one of my Lords of Waterdeep -- he's amnesiac and doesn't remember his past. I left it open for any DM that wanted to use the guy to work out what that past was, but I dropped a couple hints pointing at the past I'd come up with: a FedSuns MechWarrior who is somehow transported from New Avalon to the Realms (sans 'Mech, of course). But since he doesn't remember his past and he came through alone and unarmed, his past is mostly irrelevant. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 19:31:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
The 40k to 5E conversion idea is interesting. I’ve only toyed with some fluff ideas, where the D&D multiverse is actually a region in the Eye of Terror, together with whatever planet the WFRP Old World is set on.
Well, with the relationship of the Old World and he 40k Universe, it was suggested that they also can be possibly separate universes...but connected tohrough the Warp, as there mentions of a "multiverse" in the the fluff through the years:
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/f6ihx0/is_40k_a_multiverse/fi50jet/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Not mentioned there, but one of eaiest sources (the Old Adeptus Titanicus) earliest source mentioned in the 1988 Adeptus Titanicus that the Warp connects to a "milion universes".
Though I guess you might want just contain the crossover (including with both the Old World and D&D multiverse) to the the Eye of Terror... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 19:44:31
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I figure the Warp can likely connect to just about anywhere -- and Greyspace, the Greyhawk crystal sphere, has a couple of features that suggest connections to other places. There's the Sisters, a formation of stars -- anything passing between them comes out at a random point in space and time. A ship goes between them, it could come out in Krynnspace hundreds of years in the past. There's also a thing called the Habitat, some sort of sealed, inhabited enclosure that seems to warp space around it -- you head toward it, and suddenly you're on the other side headed away.
And then, of course, there's the crashed spaceship in the Barrier Peaks, on Oerth -- as described in the module Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. This one, more than any other, suggests connections to other places exist in Greyspace (though admittedly, it could be that the ship came from Oerth's far future).
We know the Realms has connections to a lot of other places (including Nehwon, apparently), but Greyspace seems the better choice for cross-universal junctions.
(Aside from Refuge, of course!) |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 21:22:10
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With a Space Marine, from religion on Toril, he would particularly be highly suspicious to even homicidally agressive towards gods and their clergy with some similarity to the Chaos Gods, ie Tzeentch (Mystra, Oghma, Cyric, Leira to some degree Shar), Khorne (Tempus, Garagos, Bhaal, Malar, Urdlen, to some degree Talos), Nurgle (Talona, Shar, what remains of the cult of Moander, maybe Silvanus and Chauntea in Nurgle's aspect of a nature god), Slaanesh (Sune, Loviatar, Lathander, Hanali Celanil, Corellon Larethian, Lliira, Sharess) etc. though some obviously more than others (and that's not even mentioning deities with an outright fiendish origin and/or archfiends).
[EDIT]
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I'd sure be interested to hear how it goes. I could imagine how a Black Templar wanders into Waterdeep and sees a cleric of Tyr providing healing magic to some poor beggar on the street or to a Tiefling in fine close strolling down the High Road downtown.
With Tyr, and his priests healing, I think it's probable a Space Marine, even as zealous as a Black Templar, could consider Tyr as possibly a corrupted/distorted memory of the Emperor of Mankind. With a priest healing, being harder, though possibly seen as faith based miracle, like those among Sisters of Battle. Torm, and Helm, though it's probable they could be seen as as being connected to loyalist Primarchs - and Torm and/or Ilmater could be seen by a Space Marine as derived from Sanguinius.
Another god who could be identified with a distorted memory of the Emperor, could be Gond (specifically in the Emperor's guise as the Omnissiah). Though they could also consider them as dangerous, possibly Chaos connected cults.
With Tieflings, there is a small chance they could viewed as Abhumans, but probably would be seen as mutants, and tainted by Chaos...so they would try (and very probably succed) to execute them. |
Edited by - Baltas on 05 Sep 2021 23:28:52 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 00:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm honestly inclined to think the physical stats would be a bit higher than in this write-up, but it was everything else I was looking at. (and I get why the author didn't go that way -- Space Marines are already at a huge advantage, as it is)
In terms of 5th edition, at any rate, I would expect a Space Marine to probably be capable of doing at least roughly 12-20 damage in one attack with unarmoured, unarmed fists. A Noble NPC has 9 hit points, a Guard has 11, so one hit from an Astartes would kill them outright.
A veteran has 58 hit points, unfortunately, and doing that much in one round for any 5th edition NPC in one attack is questionable without high levels (raw physical stats would not do it), but I would expect an Astartes to physically be able to demolish a veteran in one round as well.
I agree that the author probably avoided going directly to their real huge advantage as a modicum of concession to balance. One thing I would do that he did not would be to increase the max Strength and Constitution (Dexterity as well) above 22, possibly as high as 26. 24 is the limit of a Barbarian. It is cross-system, but the Mutants and Masterminds superhero system pegs a score of 25 as the absolute limit of pure human capability. Anything above that is, by definition, superhuman, period. Fifth edition cannot precisely demonstrate it because of the limitations in placing 30 as the highest, but I would still suggest 24 or 26 as the cap for an Astartes. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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40k Space Marine in 5E
